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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Apple Special Event: iPhone 8/iPhone X - $1000?

Apple Special Event: iPhone 8/iPhone X - $1000? (Page 2)
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starman
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Sep 15, 2017, 11:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Face ID is solving a problem that doesn't exist.
The "problem" is how to get rid of buttons that take up space. This is the only way to do that.

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ort888
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Sep 15, 2017, 11:40 AM
 
I ordered myself an 8 Plus. Our family needs a phone now, and I have too many questions and concerns about how the X will work in the real world. Face ID seems like poop and I don't have the time to wait and find out if it is or not.

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Waragainstsleep
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Sep 15, 2017, 12:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
The "problem" is how to get rid of buttons that take up space. This is the only way to do that.
There was talk of the fingerprint scanner being under the screen.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Brien
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Sep 17, 2017, 02:10 AM
 
Maybe next year...
     
Waragainstsleep
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Sep 17, 2017, 07:26 AM
 
I'm starting to think FaceID is very much Plan B. I don't see Apple ditching TouchID so soon after adding it to computers. I was genuinely impressed when TouchID came out how smoothly it worked. Fast reliable, convenient, robust. It really is a great feature and absolutely rock solid. Its a PITA when you are replacing screens but otherwise its genuinely brilliant.
FaceID doesn't have the same feel. Its probably no more open to abuse than Touch, but it feels like it is. It feels like its more invasive and like its going to be less reliable and more problematic and while I realise the data is highly secured and private, if someone got your fingerprint from a TouchID sensor and posted it with the caption "Do you know this person?", they'd get nowhere. Same isn't true of your face.
I won't be surprised at all if they go back to TouchID once they can build the scanner into the digitiser like I think they want to.
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subego
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Sep 17, 2017, 11:59 AM
 
It isn't though. They've had 5 years to perfect it, designed out the part where the hardware needs to be built into a mechanical button, and it's still as crummy as in 2015.

It's faster. That's about it.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Sep 17, 2017, 08:10 PM
 
Touch ID is crummy? It works pretty good for me. I have no complaints. It works way better than I expected it to. I'd wager it works better than most other handsets.
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subego
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Sep 17, 2017, 10:04 PM
 
None of these are "rock solid" type descriptors.

My issue is sweat (not an uncommon phenomenon) borks it.

That said, FaceID may end up irritating me more, and I've mastered activating TouchID (when it works), as I take my phone out of my pocket, which is nice.
     
OreoCookie
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Sep 17, 2017, 10:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I'm starting to think FaceID is very much Plan B. I don't see Apple ditching TouchID so soon after adding it to computers. I was genuinely impressed when TouchID came out how smoothly it worked. Fast reliable, convenient, robust. It really is a great feature and absolutely rock solid. Its a PITA when you are replacing screens but otherwise its genuinely brilliant.
FaceID doesn't have the same feel.
How do you know it doesn't have the same feel and reliability? I think if FaceID works as advertised, it is superior to TouchID, the user doesn't have to do anything to log in. Seeing as how FaceID is based not just on a simple camera as most of its competitors have, I think it is likely that it will work as well as TouchID v1.0 and is just as secure. Apple's track record is very good here: they have managed to make finger print authentication fast and reliable.

I have two concerns: first, the deliberate nature of a finger print may, in some use cases, be preferable, e. g. when you want to confirm a payment. The finger print not just authorizes payment, but acts as a second “Are you sure?” confirmation. The second concern is inadvertently unlocking your phone for someone with nefarious motives (say, a thief). I don't see that FaceID will be less secure here, but perhaps I am proven wrong in practice.
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Its probably no more open to abuse than Touch, but it feels like it is. It feels like its more invasive and like its going to be less reliable and more problematic and while I realise the data is highly secured and private, if someone got your fingerprint from a TouchID sensor and posted it with the caption "Do you know this person?", they'd get nowhere. Same isn't true of your face.
When registering a finger print with TouchID, you don't actually save a finger print, you save data generated from a finger print that doesn't allow you to reconstruct the actual finger print. They read your finger print, create a sort of check sum with the unique key associated with your TouchID sensor/SoC combo and then compare said check sum. That is why you cannot just change the screen on an iPhone with TouchID, for otherwise TouchID will stop working — the TouchID sensor is paired to the SoC. I am quite sure FaceID works in the same manner: it will at no point save data necessary to reconstruct your face. Just like FaceID I am sure the data stays on the secure enclave of the A11 and is never directly accessible from the OS. And even if it is, you have bupcus, there is no way to use the data because to generate the check sum, you can use only one single camera on planet earth.
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I won't be surprised at all if they go back to TouchID once they can build the scanner into the digitiser like I think they want to.
Nope, just listen to what Apple says: the iPhone X is the future, in a few years all of Apple's phones will look like it. And that means Apple's plan is to phase out TouchID in favor of FaceID. The only thing that can change that is if FaceID is a huge technological flop.
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OreoCookie
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Sep 17, 2017, 10:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
My issue is sweat (not an uncommon phenomenon) borks it.
I can confirm that: when I go on bike rides, I end up having to use my pass code (as my hands get very sweaty). If FaceID isn't thrown off by my helmet and a different pair of glasses, that'd be a big improvement over TouchID. Apple claims it has thought of all that, so I am optimistic it'll work — even if v1.0 doesn't work as well, I am sure by the time I replace my iPhone 7 it will.
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Waragainstsleep
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Sep 17, 2017, 11:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
How do you know it doesn't have the same feel and reliability?
You have to point your face at it, and look at it. Closed eyes or looking elsewhere won't unlock the device. There is an argument for being able to unlock a phone without looking at it. Many of these are places where others may not wish you to such as schools, but what if you are taken hostage?


Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I think if FaceID works as advertised, it is superior to TouchID, the user doesn't have to do anything to log in.
As mentioned above, its less versatile if it does work as advertised. Apple had an issue on stage when demoing it and all the rumours pointed to a Touch ID sensor behind the LCD for months on end. Also they just added it to the Mac range. Its not even available across the range yet and they are going to phase it out already? Doesn't make sense to me. As you mentioned, I like the deliberate nature of Touch ID. Face ID seems like it can and will work by mistake fairly regularly. Who knows how often it will fail to work. We're told it can handle hairstyles and beards, as you would expect us to be told, how dies it do if you are prone to facial puffiness or water retention? What if you try to call an ambulance while in anaphylactic shock? It sounds silly but its not unthinkable.


Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Seeing as how FaceID is based not just on a simple camera as most of its competitors have, I think it is likely that it will work as well as TouchID v1.0 and is just as secure. Apple's track record is very good here: they have managed to make finger print authentication fast and reliable.
Agreed but like I say, my gut tells me they weren't done with Touch ID yet.


Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
When registering a finger print with TouchID, you don't actually save a finger print, you save data generated from a finger print that doesn't allow you to reconstruct the actual finger print. They read your finger print, create a sort of check sum with the unique key associated with your TouchID sensor/SoC combo and then compare said check sum. That is why you cannot just change the screen on an iPhone with TouchID, for otherwise TouchID will stop working — the TouchID sensor is paired to the SoC. I am quite sure FaceID works in the same manner: it will at no point save data necessary to reconstruct your face. Just like FaceID I am sure the data stays on the secure enclave of the A11 and is never directly accessible from the OS. And even if it is, you have bupcus, there is no way to use the data because to generate the check sum, you can use only one single camera on planet earth.
30,000 data points that describe your face in 3D sounds like something that can be reverse engineered and might be worth it. I could be wrong.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Nope, just listen to what Apple says: the iPhone X is the future, in a few years all of Apple's phones will look like it. And that means Apple's plan is to phase out TouchID in favor of FaceID. The only thing that can change that is if FaceID is a huge technological flop.
This I don't agree with. I think there is a strong chance the public will prefer Touch ID, and I still think Apple might too. If they get it working without the button or the ring around the button, I can see them adding it back in as a choice. And it still could be added to more Mac Touch bars.

Gonna side track a bit on that last note. I like the idea of a new Mac Mini or this Modular Mac Pro having a Touch Bar with a server app for it. Very useful for some headless server functions and stats and having fingerprint unlock to change drive modules or do other server tasks seems like a nifty idea. Thats just a vague hope on my part though. I'll point out that the Mac Mini and Mac Pro aren't going to be able to do Face ID very easily so Touch ID is going nowhere as far as I'm concerned.
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subego
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Sep 17, 2017, 11:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I can confirm that: when I go on bike rides, I end up having to use my pass code (as my hands get very sweaty). If FaceID isn't thrown off by my helmet and a different pair of glasses, that'd be a big improvement over TouchID. Apple claims it has thought of all that, so I am optimistic it'll work — even if v1.0 doesn't work as well, I am sure by the time I replace my iPhone 7 it will.
I'm just a sweaty MFer for whatever reason, so it's a consistent issue for me.

Also, when I first got my 7, it took weeks for it fail a read. As time went on, it became just as bad as the 2nd gen. My guess would be that's related to its "training" algorithm.
     
subego
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Sep 17, 2017, 11:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Closed eyes... won't unlock the device
If a FaceID fails in a forest when no one is watching, does it make an unhappy consumer?
     
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Sep 18, 2017, 12:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
You have to point your face at it, and look at it. Closed eyes or looking elsewhere won't unlock the device. There is an argument for being able to unlock a phone without looking at it.
Yes, but how does that negative compare to the advantages, that's the right question to ask?
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Many of these are places where others may not wish you to such as schools, but what if you are taken hostage?
If someone puts a gun to my head, I'd be happy to unlock my phone either with my finger print or with my face.
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
As mentioned above, its less versatile if it does work as advertised.
No, I don't think it is less versatile. The disadvantage you mention is real, as is the first of the two that I have mentioned. But this needs to be weighed with the obvious advantages FaceID has.
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Apple had an issue on stage when demoing it and all the rumours pointed to a Touch ID sensor behind the LCD for months on end.
The issue on stage was that the iPhone was handled by too many people (to keep it clean and pristine), and then locked itself the same way current iPhones lock if it fails to recognize your finger print five (?) times in a row.
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Face ID seems like it can and will work by mistake fairly regularly. Who knows how often it will fail to work. We're told it can handle hairstyles and beards, as you would expect us to be told, how dies it do if you are prone to facial puffiness or water retention?
All the things you list are things to consider. Apple explicitly said that they designed FaceID around it, and you seem to believe that Apple's implementation will be a failure. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt and wait before we judge.
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
What if you try to call an ambulance while in anaphylactic shock? It sounds silly but its not unthinkable.
The exact same way you do it now: you can always call emergency services without unlocking your phone.
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
30,000 data points that describe your face in 3D sounds like something that can be reverse engineered and might be worth it. I could be wrong.
Yes, you are wrong: the cpu on the secure enclave uses the device-specific key to compute a hash from the input data that is then compared to the encrypted data that is stored. Even if you extract the data and put it on another device, it is useless, because that device uses a different (device-specific) key. You are unable to recover the original data from this hash.
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
This I don't agree with. I think there is a strong chance the public will prefer Touch ID, and I still think Apple might too. If they get it working without the button or the ring around the button, I can see them adding it back in as a choice.
The fact that you seem convinced that FaceID will be a failure and Apple's strategy which expects that FaceID works as advertised are two different issues. Unless FaceID is a catastrophic failure, which would be really surprising to me, it is here to stay. And I don't think Apple's Mac strategy is going to sway its stance one way or another.

You are right that integrating FaceID with a Mac Pro or a Mac mini will be difficult. But these will hardly be deciding factors. In any case, it'll be straightforward to add FaceID to an iMac or an Apple-branded display.
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Sep 18, 2017, 04:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Yes, but how does that negative compare to the advantages, that's the right question to ask?
The advantages being that sweaty fingers are no longer an issue and no button to press? Not spectacular advantages are they?

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
If someone puts a gun to my head, I'd be happy to unlock my phone either with my finger print or with my face.
Using your face, they will see you do it.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
No, I don't think it is less versatile. The disadvantage you mention is real, as is the first of the two that I have mentioned. But this needs to be weighed with the obvious advantages FaceID has.
They aren't obvious to me. Or just aren't that great.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
The issue on stage was that the iPhone was handled by too many people (to keep it clean and pristine), and then locked itself the same way current iPhones lock if it fails to recognize your finger print five (?) times in a row.
Apple would never lie about that of course.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
All the things you list are things to consider. Apple explicitly said that they designed FaceID around it, and you seem to believe that Apple's implementation will be a failure. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt and wait before we judge.
I believe it will likely work as well as they say or close to. I just believe that it isn't a superior solution and Apple agrees to me too, though they never will publicly.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
The fact that you seem convinced that FaceID will be a failure and Apple's strategy which expects that FaceID works as advertised are two different issues. Unless FaceID is a catastrophic failure, which would be really surprising to me, it is here to stay. And I don't think Apple's Mac strategy is going to sway its stance one way or another.

You are right that integrating FaceID with a Mac Pro or a Mac mini will be difficult. But these will hardly be deciding factors. In any case, it'll be straightforward to add FaceID to an iMac or an Apple-branded display.
I still say the evidence points to Touch ID sticking around. Apple will want that Apple pay unlock on all devices eventually and Touch is always going to be more practical. I still think it has advantages over Face ID. Imagine malware running in the background that just needs you to look at your FaceTime camera during the time you are working to charge you cash? What if its every time you look at it?
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Spheric Harlot
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Sep 18, 2017, 11:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
The advantages being that sweaty fingers are no longer an issue and no button to press? Not spectacular advantages are they?
Uh, the "wet fingers no longer an issue" is a pretty big deal for all of us who live where it rains occasionally, or who wash their hands or dishes, or yes, just plain sweat when it's hot.

And "the whole front is a screen" may not seem like an advantage to you, but it's pretty spectacular to a device as iconic (gah I hate that word, but it's the most appropriate in this case) as the iPhone.

Apple would never lie about that of course.


That message right there is exactly what you see when you mis-authenticate with Touch ID (except of course, saying "Face" instead of "Touch") a certain number of times, or fulfil any of the following (straight from Apple's support site):

"- when more than 48 hours have passed from the last time you unlocked your device;
- when there have been more than five unrecognized Touch ID authorization attempts in a row."

Or of course, Apple might be lying.



I believe it will likely work as well as they say or close to. I just believe that it isn't a superior solution and Apple agrees to me too, though they never will publicly.
I'm sure they do. They've gone from a 1:50,000 security measure to one two orders of magnitude more secure (as per their claim; of course, they might be lying).

They'll never admit publicly that they agree with you that this is a step backwards.



I still say the evidence points to Touch ID sticking around. Apple will want that Apple pay unlock on all devices eventually and Touch is always going to be more practical. I still think it has advantages over Face ID. Imagine malware running in the background that just needs you to look at your FaceTime camera during the time you are working to charge you cash? What if its every time you look at it?
What if they stuck with the current method of JUST ASKING YOU?

If you want to pay, instead of popping up a window requesting you to authenticate with Touch ID, they just ask you if you want to pay, and if you tap "Pay now" without looking at the phone (or somebody else does instead of you), it just fails?

Naaah. Too ****ing simple.
     
ort888
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Sep 18, 2017, 11:31 AM
 
They were carefully parsing their words during the keynote.

They never once said it was faster or better than Touch ID. This is probably because it isn't yet. Every time they demonstrated it on stage, they would say something like, okay, let me unlock my phone... and they would hold it up like 16 inches from their face and stare straight ahead in a very deliberate manner... that's how it has been shown to us. Unless it's magically better and faster, it is going to be worse than Touch ID.

No one has used it. Right now we have their word on what they've said on stage and what they've shown us. I'm sure it's not a huge step down, but I'm far from convinced it's actually better... yet. Give it a couple years and sure... but right now? I'm very skeptical.

I like how Gruber and some others are kind of mocking people who are hesitant about Face ID. Newsflash people, we're not all rich. I can't take a chance like that based on nothing at all. All I can go on is the information I have, which is pretty much nonexistent at this point. Based on what I saw on stage, I'm not willing to commit $1,000 to a device I'll have for 3 years if I'm not 100% convinced one of the main features even works that well.

They haven't convinced me. That's not so say I might be wrong, but it doesn't feel that way to me. Craig Federighi isn't exactly a good non-biased source. If you want to convince us of how great it is, don't have an apple employee tell us on some podcasts and talk shows. Give the device to some 3rd party tech journalists and let them tell us about it.

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Sep 18, 2017, 11:57 AM
 
Abandoning Touch ID was a strange move, but I have a possible/weird theory as to part of this motivation...

From a security perspective, touch ID was huge as a form of biometric/two-factor authentication. With this form of 2FA you could challenge something as sensitive as a payment by providing something you know (i.e. a password/login to Apple) with something you have (i.e. a thumb/finger).

As biometrics become more deeply entrenched in society, eventually things like physical cash could disappear, and eventually physical possession of credit cards. A question that gets asked is "what happens if somebody steals your phone and has your password". Well, with the biometric auth there was less damage that could be caused. However, if somebody *really* wanted your stuff I guess they could cut off your finger. That would obviously be a huge PR issue, and I would imagine somehow tearing off your face would be a little tougher

Apple also claims that Face ID is a lot more accurate/foolproof. I guess we'll see as people start to test it.

A lot of comments and reviews have rightfully been on the customer UX part of this, but I think it is important to remember that a big part of this whole thing has to do with payments, and a question is at what point even a slightly flawed Face ID becomes more convenient than hauling around a credit card (which carry with them a whole host of issues). IOW, there is a bit of a long game here involved with mobile payment adoption.
     
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Sep 18, 2017, 12:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Uh, the "wet fingers no longer an issue" is a pretty big deal for all of us who live where it rains occasionally, or who wash their hands or dishes, or yes, just plain sweat when it's hot.
Dude, I live in England and weigh over 300lbs. Probably. I don't notice issues around wet or sweaty hands.


Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
And "the whole front is a screen" may not seem like an advantage to you, but it's pretty spectacular to a device as iconic (gah I hate that word, but it's the most appropriate in this case) as the iPhone.
Its ok, but Apple is overhyping it. Various other phones did it ages ago. I don't need my phone videos even more elongated. Its a shiny cherry on a cake, but it isn't that big a deal.


Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Or of course, Apple might be lying.
Oddly hostile. Apple is better at staying on message than any other entity on the planet. Admitting that something glitches or whatever during a launch keynote is not on message.


Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
What if they stuck with the current method of JUST ASKING YOU?
Again, oddly hostile but if only they did that.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
If you want to pay, instead of popping up a window requesting you to authenticate with Touch ID, they just ask you if you want to pay, and if you tap "Pay now" without looking at the phone (or somebody else does instead of you), it just fails?

Naaah. Too ****ing simple.
I just like Touch ID. I like that it works, its reliable, its robust, its quick and it feels like the right way to do a lot of things. Face ID seems like it has the potential to not do things you want or to do things you don't, and even if that doesn't pan out it just seems less organic to me to have to pose for your phone to get into it.
I also happen to think that Apple know how good Touch ID is too and I think they are smart enough to foresee some of the same issues with Face ID.

I just read that it "should work with most sunglasses". Thats not encouraging. I'm guessing some lenses will block the IR it uses.
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Sep 18, 2017, 12:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
They were carefully parsing their words during the keynote.

They never once said it was faster or better than Touch ID. This is probably because it isn't yet.
Oh?





You're right, they didn't mention faster



Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
No one has used it. Right now we have their word on what they've said on stage and what they've shown us. I'm sure it's not a huge step down, but I'm far from convinced it's actually better... yet. Give it a couple years and sure... but right now? I'm very skeptical.

I like how Gruber and some others are kind of mocking people who are hesitant about Face ID.
Read some more Gruber. He's talked to Apple engineers. Not Product Marketers. Everyday folk who are using the stuff.
     
ort888
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Sep 18, 2017, 12:41 PM
 
I'm not trying to start an argument. They made a big deal out of this one thing that happens to be better. Where is the giant slide that says it's better in day-to-day use? Where is the slide with speed stats? Where is the video showing how great it is?

I'm a big fan of Gruber, I read everything he writes and listened to his podcast every week from the very early days... but he's so invested in the entire Apple thing that his views aren't 100% neutral. He knows where his bread is buttered. His inherent bias is always going to give apple the benefit of the doubt. If samsung made a phone with the notch, he would spend the next 6 months mocking it.

The way they were showing it working on stage makes me very leery that Face ID will slide as easily into my life as Touch ID did. There are so many times where I unlock my phone and don't really want to hold it up to my face.

It's possible Face ID will be great. Based on what they've shown me, I'm not convinced. We'll see. I hope it's great. It sounds great in theory...
( Last edited by ort888; Sep 18, 2017 at 12:51 PM. )

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subego
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Sep 18, 2017, 01:19 PM
 
I think there are plenty of vectors for FaceID to suck.

On the other hand, it's a bit like commercials which say our new product is ten times better than our old product. That's saying the old product sucks, which is a bad idea if it's still being sold.
     
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Sep 18, 2017, 01:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
I'm a big fan of Gruber, I read everything he writes and listened to his podcast every week from the very early days... but he's so invested in the entire Apple thing that his views aren't 100% neutral. He knows where his bread is buttered. His inherent bias is always going to give apple the benefit of the doubt. If samsung made a phone with the notch, he would spend the next 6 months mocking it.
Have you really been reading him lately? He has a whole rant on the notch - he's annoyed as hell by it.

The way they were showing it working on stage makes me very leery that Face ID will slide as easily into my life as Touch ID did. There are so many times where I unlock my phone and don't really want to hold it up to my face.

It's possible Face ID will be great. Based on what they've shown me, I'm not convinced. We'll see. I hope it's great. It sounds great in theory...
Knowing how they tend to not implement this kind of thing until it feels absolutely "natural", I'm pretty sure it will be "you don't ever think about it" territory.

We shall see.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Sep 18, 2017, 01:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I think there are plenty of vectors for FaceID to suck.

On the other hand, it's a bit like commercials which say our new product is ten times better than our old product. That's saying the old product sucks, which is a bad idea if it's still being sold.
There's a great old Garfield comic regarding cat food:

"'New and Improved'? You mean all this time I've been eating 'Old and Inferior'!?"
     
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Sep 18, 2017, 06:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
The advantages being that sweaty fingers are no longer an issue and no button to press? Not spectacular advantages are they?
The issue has not been resolved for me. Granted, it's a problem under a very specific set of circumstances (such as sports or, also, washing the dishes), but it would be something that FaceID would solve.
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Using your face, they will see you do it.
I don't get what you are saying here. If I'm held hostage by somebody, it doesn't matter whether my phone is locked with some biometric feature or with a passcode, I'll gladly give up anything if my life depends on it.
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Apple would never lie about that of course.
I'm giving Apple the benefit of the doubt based on its history here: TouchID works very well even with first-gen sensors. So I will wait for how it performs in the real world rather than poo-poo it before having tried it. Even if Apple is lying and it didn't work during the presentation, they could have been unlucky.
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I still say the evidence points to Touch ID sticking around. Apple will want that Apple pay unlock on all devices eventually and Touch is always going to be more practical. I still think it has advantages over Face ID.
TouchID will be very hard to implement securely on external keyboards and such. (To be fair, the same problems come up when you want to implement FaceID with an external screen.) In any case, I also don't think both have to be mutually exclusive, and TouchID could exist in Macs for far longer than in iPhones. But at least on a phone Apple's opinion seems to be clear, and I still think only if FaceID is a major dud would Apple reconsider. They seem to be confident, though.
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Imagine malware running in the background that just needs you to look at your FaceTime camera during the time you are working to charge you cash? What if its every time you look at it?
I'm not sure what kind of malware you have in mind. On an API level FaceID works exactly the same as TouchID (this was explained by Federighi on latest episode of The Talk Show), meaning that if you have a malicious app that inadvertently asks for you to make a payment, then the same dialog boxes will appear that ask you to confirm a purchase. The app has no way of knowing what biometric feature you use to authenticate the purchase, whether that is touch or your face. Unless you can circumvent Apple's APIs here, authenticating your purchase with FaceID is no less problematic than using your finger prints.

Assuming that Apple hasn't done away with the dialog box asking you to press confirm and then authenticate in iOS 11 or someone hacks the system APIs, the scenario you outline will not occur.
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I'm sure they do. They've gone from a 1:50,000 security measure to one two orders of magnitude more secure (as per their claim; of course, they might be lying).
Just a quick comment on that: it is quite logical that FaceID is much more secure than TouchID, because you have a much larger data set to work with. If I remember Apple's presentation correctly, they take 30,000 data points through the IR sensor alone — which is bound to be much larger than what you get with a finger print.

Honestly, though, I was expecting that both are used in concert which would have been much more secure than either in isolation.
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
They never once said it was faster or better than Touch ID.
They didn't say faster, but they claimed it was much more secure. Speed of detection may be an issue in practice, especially since many people unlock their phone with TouchID while taking it out of their pockets.
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
This is probably because it isn't yet. Every time they demonstrated it on stage, they would say something like, okay, let me unlock my phone... and they would hold it up like 16 inches from their face and stare straight ahead in a very deliberate manner... that's how it has been shown to us. Unless it's magically better and faster, it is going to be worse than Touch ID.
I can definitely see the trade-offs in both directions, and I think FaceID has definite advantages in practice over TouchID precisely for the same reasons it becomes a disadvantage: it makes authenticating yourself an unconscious act. The app asks for payment, you press Accept or Pay and your face authenticates the purchase in the background. If it works as advertised, that seems to be better. I would only say that part of me I would have liked them to combine both, TouchID and FaceID, as that would have made it more secure than either.
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Sep 18, 2017, 06:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I just read that it "should work with most sunglasses". Thats not encouraging. I'm guessing some lenses will block the IR it uses.
Yes, the question is whether the lenses block or reflect IR. As long as it works very well with regular glasses, hats and helmets and doesn't get fazed by most sun glasses, I don't think this is much of an issue.
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Sep 18, 2017, 07:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
I'm a big fan of Gruber, I read everything he writes and listened to his podcast every week from the very early days... but he's so invested in the entire Apple thing that his views aren't 100% neutral. He knows where his bread is buttered. His inherent bias is always going to give apple the benefit of the doubt. If samsung made a phone with the notch, he would spend the next 6 months mocking it.
Gruber and other Apple-centric bloggers and podcasters have mocked the ears, but until Apple can hide all the camera gear behind the screen, the only other choice was to make the screen slightly smaller. It may be aesthetically ungainly, but it does solve the jumping title bar issue that I frequently encounter when using Strava (which has location tracking and thus triggers the persistent blue title bar that causes many app interface rendering issues).
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Sep 18, 2017, 07:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
The issue has not been resolved for me. Granted, it's a problem under a very specific set of circumstances (such as sports or, also, washing the dishes), but it would be something that FaceID would solve.
It might be that I absent mindedly wipe my finger dry sometimes to make it work, but this feels less intrusive to me than having to strike pose to unlock.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I don't get what you are saying here. If I'm held hostage by somebody, it doesn't matter whether my phone is locked with some biometric feature or with a passcode, I'll gladly give up anything if my life depends on it.
I'm saying its easier to unlock and emergency dial without looking at your phone using Touch ID than Face ID or a passcode. I realise I'm clutching at straws a little. I just think Face ID won't be quite so organic to get used to as Touch ID and has more potential issues to overcome. For Apple this typically represents a non-improvement. Sure they've made it more secure, but if they hadn't then there would be more objections to overcome.

If they can build a fingerprint sensor that works into the touch screen, I can see them going back again. There was talk a few years back of tech where the LCD pixels were also CCD pixels so the display acted as a camera too. Whether the Truesit camera makes that even harder or not I don't know, but again I suspect that Steve Jobs might have considered both these two techs as essential to his vision for the iPhone X.
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Sep 18, 2017, 08:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
It might be that I absent mindedly wipe my finger dry sometimes to make it work, but this feels less intrusive to me than having to strike pose to unlock.
Perhaps it depends on the specific situation, but to me it seems like an improvement. I'm not sure that you actually have to “pose”, just looking at the screen seems to suffice to unlock your device. I'm curious to try it myself. In any case, I expect to have two or three more years until I replace my iPhone 7, so I would benefit from the progress they make in the meantime (in the same way that I got the TouchID v2 sensor).
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I'm saying its easier to unlock and emergency dial without looking at your phone using Touch ID than Face ID or a passcode. I realise I'm clutching at straws a little.
That seems like a very peculiar situation. In any case, you don't even need to unlock your phone to dial whatever the local equivalent of 911 is, although I reckon that this is what most people will instinctively do.
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
If they can build a fingerprint sensor that works into the touch screen, I can see them going back again. There was talk a few years back of tech where the LCD pixels were also CCD pixels so the display acted as a camera too. Whether the Truesit camera makes that even harder or not I don't know, but again I suspect that Steve Jobs might have considered both these two techs as essential to his vision for the iPhone X.
If Apple had wanted a finger print scanner for the iPhone X, then they would have waited. The iPhone 8 is a very good update over the iPhone 7, in line with the year-over-year improvements of recent years. Apple at one point made the deliberate decision to have FaceID replace TouchID on its phones, they have been very clear about it. They are very serious when they say that “this is our vision of product X in the future”. They did this with the second-gen MacBook Air, they did this with Retina and they are doing it now with the iPhone X. Arguably, FaceID is one of its marquee features. Sometimes, they fail (the Mac Pro comes to mind), but at least Apple does have a clear vision and they are in my experience honest about that.

This is of course a risk, but this is what I like about Apple: they are not afraid to take risks, and they are replacing something that already works very well.
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Sep 18, 2017, 09:21 PM
 
Back when we discussed Touch ID when it came out, I pointed out that I couldn't get a good read on my right thumb. Something about how I've abused the poor digit and the scars and creases interfering with the detection of normal patterns, I guess.

But I can honestly say that a facial recognition system is going to have to do WAY better than just match my bone structure. I wake up with my hair all different. When I'm sweaty, my eyebrows do "interesting" things. When I'm tired, you can see it in my eyes - and that's quantifiable, not just qualitative. So the algorithm for "that is Glenn" is going to have to be really complex to be both even slightly secure and even slightly accurate. On the whole, I think they bit of a big old bite of "wow this is hard."

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Sep 18, 2017, 11:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
If Apple had wanted a finger print scanner for the iPhone X, then they would have waited. The iPhone 8 is a very good update over the iPhone 7, in line with the year-over-year improvements of recent years. Apple at one point made the deliberate decision to have FaceID replace TouchID on its phones, they have been very clear about it.
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree about this but I don't think waiting was an option this time. Normally thats exactly what they would have done, but they wanted the X on the tenth anniversary. Would Steve have made the same call? Who knows. He likely would have got the feature set he wanted finished in time.
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Sep 18, 2017, 11:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
But I can honestly say that a facial recognition system is going to have to do WAY better than just match my bone structure. I wake up with my hair all different. When I'm sweaty, my eyebrows do "interesting" things. When I'm tired, you can see it in my eyes - and that's quantifiable, not just qualitative. So the algorithm for "that is Glenn" is going to have to be really complex to be both even slightly secure and even slightly accurate. On the whole, I think they bit of a big old bite of "wow this is hard."
At least in the presentation Apple emphasized to what lengths they have gone to make FaceID secure and eyebrow fashion tolerant. We all have to see how it works, the proof is in the pudding after all, but they seemed to have thought about all the obvious and not-so-obvious issues.
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Sep 19, 2017, 12:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Back when we discussed Touch ID when it came out, I pointed out that I couldn't get a good read on my right thumb. Something about how I've abused the poor digit and the scars and creases interfering with the detection of normal patterns, I guess.

But I can honestly say that a facial recognition system is going to have to do WAY better than just match my bone structure. I wake up with my hair all different. When I'm sweaty, my eyebrows do "interesting" things. When I'm tired, you can see it in my eyes - and that's quantifiable, not just qualitative. So the algorithm for "that is Glenn" is going to have to be really complex to be both even slightly secure and even slightly accurate. On the whole, I think they bit of a big old bite of "wow this is hard."
I'm guessing what is essentially a 3D IR scanner builds a decent face map and is coded to know which points of the face are least or most likely to change day to day for whatever reasons. Hair gets low priority in the model and makeup and most glasses or jewellery are transparent or ignored (I haven't heard comment about piercings, but I guess you'd need a bunch to throw it off). This is why I wonder if general puffiness or Botox or swelling due to injury etc might cause issues.

I also wonder if the tech behind it was designed for the fancy camera lighting features rather than for Face ID. Just so happened the gear was there already so when the in-screen fingerprint scanner didn't pan out it was a half finished plan B already in place.
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subego
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Sep 19, 2017, 06:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree about this but I don't think waiting was an option this time. Normally thats exactly what they would have done, but they wanted the X on the tenth anniversary. Would Steve have made the same call? Who knows. He likely would have got the feature set he wanted finished in time.
If Apple blows this, it won't be to make the anniversary, it'll be because they cornered the world's OLED supply chain, and aren't going to just let it sit there.
     
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Sep 19, 2017, 07:41 AM
 
Good point.
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subego
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Thank you.
     
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Sep 19, 2017, 10:50 AM
 
Does LG account for most of the LCD/OLED panel production, yes/no?
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subego
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Sep 19, 2017, 01:34 PM
 
My understanding is Goldstar LG is the player.
     
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Today, 03:49 AM
 
Well, Safari 11 is out and I installed it and it works well. I set it to never auto-play videos, which works great on CNN and Youtube. Finally! That and I found some great code to add to my Safari AdBlock such that annotations and other annoying stuff never happen when I'm watching Youtube videos. My life is so much better now.
{{{ mindwaves }}}
     
 
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