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iCloud documents?
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Helmling
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Oct 17, 2011, 08:08 PM
 
Okay, but how does the file thing work?

I created a file on my iPad...now how the heck am I supposed to find it on my computer?
     
turtle777
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Oct 17, 2011, 08:42 PM
 
What app ?

-t
     
TETENAL
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Oct 17, 2011, 08:53 PM
 
If those are iWork documents you need to log into iCloud.com and download them with your browser ("It just works!").

If those are documents created with anything else, they stay in the cloud. No Mac applications supports this right now.
     
turtle777
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Oct 17, 2011, 09:07 PM
 
Oh, I thought that iWorks apps on the Mac can directly access the iCloud saved documents.

-t
     
Helmling  (op)
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Oct 17, 2011, 09:13 PM
 
Even that doesn't work. When I log in and click "iwork" then it just has a splash screen that says "get Pages for iOS."

I keep going into the settings and switching icloud "on" under pages, but it keeps resetting to "off." What the heck?
     
mduell
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Oct 18, 2011, 12:27 PM
 
It just works!
     
polendo
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Oct 18, 2011, 01:26 PM
 
I was expecting a dropbox kind of service for files (but couldn´t make it work using iCloud). In all due honesty I found iCloud to only duplicate my contacts and calendars on my Macs, iPad & iPod. The mess happened when all my devices where previously synchronized with Google. When I updated to 10.7.2 and iOS5 and inserted my Apple ID all hell broke loose. I remember clearly that when I upgraded on one of the devices I was told that either I use Google or iCloud, but not both.. and that´s the reason it happened. Anyway.. when I tried to fix the whole darn thing I had to delete manually address books and calendars on my devices... get back to Google (which everything was also duplicated) and restore to 1 hour ago.. which did flawlessly and then get back to my devices and sync everything back.
I´m clearly having trouble with synchronization on my devices and therefore decided to still use dropbox. At least until I find how to use iCloud.
     
Helmling  (op)
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Oct 18, 2011, 07:13 PM
 
I'm going to keep using Dropbox for most of my files, but when I do have to move files around from my iPad, I want iCloud to "just work."
     
freudling
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Oct 18, 2011, 08:08 PM
 
I think Dropbox sucks. Ugly and just another constrained browser file system.

iCloud is sick. It's basic right now with some hiccups but it's got a great future. I'm an iWork guy so what can I say.
     
turtle777
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Oct 18, 2011, 08:50 PM
 
Apple was interested in buying Dropbox, but they declined. Expect iCloud to become something very similar, but better integrated into iOS and OS X.

Dropbox Indeed Balked at Major Acquisition Offer from Apple - Mac Rumors

-t
     
chabig
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Oct 18, 2011, 09:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Expect iCloud to become something very similar, but better integrated into iOS and OS X.
I agree with this sentiment. The MobileMe iDisk was an attempt at integration. DropBox did it better. Apple's attempted purchase shows an interest in making it better and I'm sure they will.
     
freudling
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Oct 19, 2011, 12:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by chabig View Post
I agree with this sentiment. The MobileMe iDisk was an attempt at integration. DropBox did it better. Apple's attempted purchase shows an interest in making it better and I'm sure they will.
What I like about Apple's approach is the fact that it does away with file systems. Yes, yes, other data that we'd like to "manually" back up to the cloud is important too... but a lot of stuff still happens in productivity Apps: word processing, spreadsheets, and presentation software.

I don't want to rummage through ugly, constrained, slow, quirky, browser based file systems. iCloud is awesome because it's automatic and contextual. That is, when you open up, say, the word processing App, Pages, all your Pages documents are there. You don't have to rummage through file systems to find them. This contextual behaviour, along with the automatic sync between devices, is great.

Yes, a major problem is how iWork in Lion lacks the ability to display iCloud documents. Every single file must be uploaded manually, and if 1 tiny change is made, the whole file would need to be uploaded again. The fact that iCloud is half-baked in Lion and golden in iOS illustrates where Apple's focus is...

Now, remember iWork.com? Ha, maybe some of you forgot. Go have a refresher on there and get confused even more...
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 19, 2011, 12:55 PM
 
You obviously don't deal with enough documents to require a structured approach to file storage.
     
turtle777
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Oct 19, 2011, 01:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
What I like about Apple's approach is the fact that it does away with file systems. Yes, yes, other data that we'd like to "manually" back up to the cloud is important too... but a lot of stuff still happens in productivity Apps: word processing, spreadsheets, and presentation software.

I don't want to rummage through ugly, constrained, slow, quirky, browser based file systems. iCloud is awesome because it's automatic and contextual. That is, when you open up, say, the word processing App, Pages, all your Pages documents are there. You don't have to rummage through file systems to find them. This contextual behaviour, along with the automatic sync between devices, is great.
This is very shortsighted and limited.

It works for people with very few documents, and very limited data.

How do you organize 100s of documents collected over many years in teh iCloud ? You can't.
It's a complete nightmare for anyone that creates more than a handful of documents each year.

-t
     
freudling
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Oct 19, 2011, 03:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
You obviously don't deal with enough documents to require a structured approach to file storage.
Actually, Spheric, a person who runs to the mods because your feelings get hurt over the most trivial stuff...

I probably deal with more documents than most of you combined. It's what I do. I crunch documents all day. Constantly. I'm not saying no to file systems. What I want is what iCloud gives me. Auto sync and contextual behaviour. But I also want all the stuff in my file systems to be backed up automatically, and this iCloud does not do, and I want it to do that. I had a script that ran that automatically backed up my document file systems on my Mac to my iDisk with MobileMe. iCloud needs to have something like this baked into OS X.

What I am saying no to is file systems in the cloud. Because I actually deal with so many documents, it's just not productive to enter a constrained browser environment. It's slow, no real dragging and dropping... it's a complete deal breaker for someone shuffling documents around at a very high pace, and in volume.

Shared drives have been a good friend for years. I think the answer is that people just move into the realm of home servers with shared folders, and that baked into the OS is iCloud like syncing between all devices. This solves the problem of privacy and having to deal with absurd file systems in browsers.

At any rate, I at least am hoping iWork in Lion gets full iCloud syncing like the iOS Apps have. When you look at it, most people I've come across use templates to create new documents. So the template gallery/iCloud gallery makes a lot of sense. And it's all about documents, like 20-30, that you've been working with for the month, that are what you are inside. The file system stuff in the background is really archive stuff. So the way iCloud offers a contextual gallery of documents that you've been working on, and syncs them between devices, works the way people work.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 19, 2011, 04:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
When you look at it, most people I've come across use templates to create new documents. So the template gallery/iCloud gallery makes a lot of sense. And it's all about documents, like 20-30, that you've been working with for the month, that are what you are inside. The file system stuff in the background is really archive stuff. So the way iCloud offers a contextual gallery of documents that you've been working on, and syncs them between devices, works the way people work.
Ah, so if I'm getting you correctly, you DO need file hierarchies, but when you do, it's strictly for archival purposes.

I'd venture that's a pretty rare case in "professional" circles, and whether that works is completely dependent upon what you do and how you work.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 19, 2011, 04:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Actually, Spheric, a person who runs to the mods because your feelings get hurt over the most trivial stuff...
Do you have any evidence whatsoever that I've reported you, ever?
     
freudling
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Oct 19, 2011, 04:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Ah, so if I'm getting you correctly, you DO need file hierarchies, but when you do, it's strictly for archival purposes.

I'd venture that's a pretty rare case in "professional" circles, and whether that works is completely dependent upon what you do and how you work.
You know what? I have no idea. But based on my experience in life and work, in most cases, I see that people work on some document(s) as of current. Once that document or those documents are complete, sent off to client, whatever, other projects are then at the forefront, and new documents get created... and the cycle repeats. The documents in file systems are typically there for archive purposes. When people need them, they go to them. But these documents don't really get heavily edited, modified, created, etc. Most of that is already done. Once they land there, they're archived for later reference/use.

What I'm saying is that Apple's seemed to have mastered the "now" document management system - the stuff we're working on... creating... now - but the "archival" component is broken, since iCloud doesn't really have a file system. At least, it doesn't mirror your document folder on your Mac. A big omission as far as I'm concerned.

FWIW, I've designed document management systems, worked with government software solutions like CLIFF for correspondence management, set up lots of shared drives, worked with open source document management systems, have been trained in this area and worked for several years in it...

I might know a few things about it. But all I can do is generalize based on my experience in these worlds. It doesn't mean the whole universe sees it the same way...
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 19, 2011, 04:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
they're archived for later reference/use.

What I'm saying is that Apple's seemed to have mastered the "now" document management system - the stuff we're working on... creating... now - but the "archival" component is broken, since iCloud doesn't really have a file system.
That's what everybody else is saying, too.

It's just that how much you depend upon that "for later use" component up there varies enormously with the job. An awful lot of work is more or less based around that retrieval of existing documents, and as you say, that is completely broken in iOS/iCloud ATM.
     
freudling
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Oct 19, 2011, 05:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
That's what everybody else is saying, too.

It's just that how much you depend upon that "for later use" component up there varies enormously with the job. An awful lot of work is more or less based around that retrieval of existing documents, and as you say, that is completely broken in iOS/iCloud ATM.
Right.

For right now, it's awesome to have these rolodex galleries of currently created documents going in iCloud. But yes, it's broken from a document management perspective. It makes me question if Apple really knows what it's doing here. In fact, from what I see, it doesn't.

Even from a consumer perspective iCloud needs more. It does need a file system. This can be a feature behind the main iCloud document management system so it looks as though there is no file system, with just a nice gallery. But clicking a gear or something will bring it up. Then, all your files... you can see.

They need to mirror the users' folders in OS X. Of course, no worries about music. And no real worries about movies (movies are huge and you're crazy to back them up to the Cloud. Takes too long. Use external HDs or get a home server.

And the photos are already more or less taken care of (Photostream), although still lacking a bit.

No, folder mirroring would really be about documents, maybe even the desktop. Add some stuff back in like keychain sync, etc. and iCloud would be solid.

I don't ever expect it to be as robust as enterprise grade document management systems, that hook right into word processors and Email programs, along with Web components and Desktop integration for total document management... for large team environments...

But just give us the Lion integration and I think people will stop bitxhing.
     
turtle777
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Oct 19, 2011, 06:07 PM
 
Fact is: iCloud has NOT (yet) revolutionized *all* aspects of file creation/modification/handling/archiving.

Right now, the desktop hierarchical file system might be ugly and dated, but it's the ONLY thing that does all aspects (creation, modification, handling, archiving) well.

-t
     
freudling
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Oct 19, 2011, 08:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Fact is: iCloud has NOT (yet) revolutionized *all* aspects of file creation/modification/handling/archiving.

Right now, the desktop hierarchical file system might be ugly and dated, but it's the ONLY thing that does all aspects (creation, modification, handling, archiving) well.

-t
Yes. And I refuse to demote myself to some half-baked iteration of the desktop file system in "the cloud" like Dropbox. You mean I can have a cloud storage solution but with like half the features and performance of what I get on the desktop? Screw it, it's way too slow and constraining. It doesn't work for us, and I know others feel the same. For people serious about document management, they use a shared drive on a server and/or document management system software, either open source or custom.
     
chabig
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Oct 19, 2011, 08:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
For people serious about document management, they use a shared drive on a server and/or document management system software, either open source or custom.
Wow. My documents are personal. Why should I have to share them on a server to be serious about them?

I think the point of iCloud is that the typical person shouldn't have to be "serious about document management".
     
turtle777
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Oct 19, 2011, 08:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Yes. And I refuse to demote myself to some half-baked iteration of the desktop file system in "the cloud" like Dropbox. You mean I can have a cloud storage solution but with like half the features and performance of what I get on the desktop? Screw it, it's way too slow and constraining. It doesn't work for us, and I know others feel the same. For people serious about document management, they use a shared drive on a server and/or document management system software, either open source or custom.
So, the only practical solution is to ditch iCloud documents until it's more mature.

-t
     
freudling
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Oct 19, 2011, 08:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by chabig View Post
Wow. My documents are personal. Why should I have to share them on a server to be serious about them?

I think the point of iCloud is that the typical person shouldn't have to be "serious about document management".
Jesus... we get it. We've been talking about how there's the consumer side of things and the more intensive side of things: enterprise. Shared drives are great. All it is is a drive that's automatically mounted on your computer whenever you're connected to the Web through an encrypted tunnel. Store and open any files from that drive you want.

I have lots of friends doing this with OS X Server.
     
Helmling  (op)
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Oct 20, 2011, 08:42 AM
 
This is all well and good, people. But I still have no idea how to make iCloud work, even in the limited fashion it's supposed to.

I wish DropBox had let Apple buy them. Then maybe we'd have a robust cloud system and all Apple would have had to do is tweak it to be integrated into iOS and OSX.

Sigh.
     
turtle777
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Oct 20, 2011, 10:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
This is all well and good, people. But I still have no idea how to make iCloud work, even in the limited fashion it's supposed to.
You're not missing anything.

iCloud in its current form is prety much useless for most tasks and people.

-t
     
Thorzdad
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Oct 20, 2011, 10:17 AM
 
Can a person simply opt not to create an iCloud account after upgrading to iOS5? Or is an all-in situation?
     
turtle777
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Oct 20, 2011, 10:22 AM
 
I think you can turn off document syncing in the iOS 5 preferences.

-t
     
freudling
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Oct 20, 2011, 03:34 PM
 
Just heard, iCloud deleting people's documents.
     
mduell
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Oct 20, 2011, 05:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Yes. And I refuse to demote myself to some half-baked iteration of the desktop file system in "the cloud" like Dropbox. You mean I can have a cloud storage solution but with like half the features and performance of what I get on the desktop?
What? Dropbox is full desktop performance on every desktop you install it on.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 20, 2011, 07:52 PM
 
No: freudling has decided he doesn't like it; therefore, it sucks completely.

At least until next month, when he actually tries it and finds it's the bee's knees.

Then, everything else sucks. Until next month.
     
freudling
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Oct 20, 2011, 08:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
What? Dropbox is full desktop performance on every desktop you install it on.
I just noticed that they have desktop integration. I've been testing it all day.

It's alright, nothing great. Shared drives on your own server are way better. But of course that's not an option for everyone. Not yet, anyway.
     
turtle777
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Oct 20, 2011, 10:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
I just noticed that they have desktop integration. I've been testing it all day.

It's alright, nothing great. Shared drives on your own server are way better. But of course that's not an option for everyone. Not yet, anyway.
Seriously ?

For 99.999% of the people, shared drives on a server are much WORSE than Dropbox.
Slower, prone to network bandwidth issues, connection issues etc.

Plus, you don't get all the backup snapshots that you can restore from with Dropbox.
You really need to do your homework before you make pronouncements about what is good and what isn't.

-t
     
Helmling  (op)
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Oct 21, 2011, 02:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
You're not missing anything.

iCloud in its current form is prety much useless for most tasks and people.

-t
Sigh. I just want it to automatically send my iPad documents *somewhere* useful so I don't have to e-mail everything back and forth between devices that are inches from each other.
     
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Oct 21, 2011, 08:15 AM
 
Right now you cannot send iWork documents to a Mac. You ahve to manually download them from iCloud.com with a web browser. iWork documents are automatically synched between all iOS devices.

I think the idea is that Mac apps eventually also manage iCloud documents themselves and also synch automatically. There is an API for that (for Windows even actually). iWork for Mac hasn't been updated to make use of that yet though.
     
Thorzdad
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Oct 21, 2011, 08:51 AM
 
It seems backward to me that two wi-fi-capable machines in the same room can't exchange a simple document without first routing it through a server farm run by a huge corporation hundreds (if not thousands) of miles away. There really ought to be a "local wi-fi" option there, much in the same way two Macs can directly share docs wirelessly.

I mean, I understand the geek fever-dream of "everything-everywhere", but it really does seem silly that two machines in the same room can't directly share with each other.
     
turtle777
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Oct 21, 2011, 09:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
It seems backward to me that two wi-fi-capable machines in the same room can't exchange a simple document without first routing it through a server farm run by a huge corporation hundreds (if not thousands) of miles away. There really ought to be a "local wi-fi" option there, much in the same way two Macs can directly share docs wirelessly.

I mean, I understand the geek fever-dream of "everything-everywhere", but it really does seem silly that two machines in the same room can't directly share with each other.
Well, there *IS* Airdrop for local sharing.

Also, you can do plenty of sharing between local Macs. I really don't see this as the problem.

-t
     
Thorzdad
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Oct 21, 2011, 09:22 AM
 
I was speaking primarily about sharing between an iPad and a Mac. I'm aware of the great ability to share between only Macs. The discussion going on seems to imply that sharing between an iPad and a Mac is a less-than-ideal arrangement at this time.
     
turtle777
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Oct 21, 2011, 10:46 AM
 
Oh, sorry, you are right. I got off track here

-t
     
   
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