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Want to play guilt by association? (Page 2)
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BRussell
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Oct 6, 2008, 07:12 PM
 
McCain willingly associates with a drug addict who illegally used a charity to feed the drug habit.
     
Mrjinglesusa
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Oct 6, 2008, 07:16 PM
 
1) $200 contribution by Ayers to the Obama re-election fund

Hardly evidence of a close friendship or inappropriate relationship between two people. It's not like Obama contributed to Ayers.

2) Joint membership of the eight-person Woods Fund Board

The president of the Woods Fund, Deborah Harrington, said he [Ayers] had been selected for the board because of his solid academic credentials and "passion for social justice."

"This whole connection is a stretch," Harrington told me. "Barack was very well known in Chicago, and a highly respected legislator. It would be difficult to find people round here who never volunteered or contributed money to one of his campaigns."
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-...onnection.html

Hardly evidence of a close friendship or inappropriate relationship between two people.

3) Obama and Ayers were the same room for meetings of Chicago Annenberg Challenge, an educational initiative that Ayers was instrumental in starting and that Obama chaired in the 1990s.

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/08...ip-with-ayers/

Hardly evidence of a close friendship or inappropriate relationship between two people.

4)
In 1995, State Senator Alice Palmer introduced her chosen successor, Barack Obama, to a few of the district's influential liberals at the home of two well known figures on the local left: William Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn....

"I can remember being one of a small group of people who came to Bill Ayers' house to learn that Alice Palmer was stepping down from the senate and running for Congress," said Dr. Quentin Young, a prominent Chicago physician and advocate for single-payer health care, of the informal gathering at the home of Ayers and his wife, Dohrn. "[Palmer] identified [Obama] as her successor."
Dr. Young described Obama and Ayers as “friends,” but there’s no evidence their relationship is more than the casual friendship of two men who occupy overlapping Chicago political circles and who served together on the board of a Chicago foundation.
The relationship with Ayers gives context to his recent past in Hyde Park politics. It’s milieu in which a former violent radical was a stalwart of the local scene, not especially controversial.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8630.html

So Obama went to a house (which happened to be owned by Ayers, who is, at this time, a respected professor at The University of Illinois at Chicago) to be introduced as the heir-apparent of the sitting State Senator. Hardly evidence of a close friendship or inappropriate relationship between two people.

Here's a cute little timeline of this preposterous relationship between these two VERY close men.

It appears that Obama's Developing Communities Project "allied" with a group coordinated by Ayers. This, after Chicago’s schools are called “worst in America” by Education Secretary Bill Bennett, and a city-wide push for public school reform is called.
OMG, two civic-minded groups pooled their ideas and resources! And Obama headed one and Ayers coordinated the other! OBAMA IS LINKED TO A TERRORIST!

Michelle Robinson (the future Michelle Obama) in 1988 and Barack Obama in 1989 serve at prominent Chicago law firm, Sidley Austin, where Ayer’s wife Bernardine Dohrn also works.
OMG! Obama and his future wife served at prominent Chicago law firm (they were both going into law BTW) where Ayer's wife also works!!! STOP THE PRESSES!!! OBAMA IS ASSOCIATING WITH A TERRORIST!!!

Obama serves on the board of The Woods Fund, which funneled money to far left causes. Ayers served on the Woods board for three years of Obama’s tenure and remained on the board after Obama departed.
OMG!! OBAMA SERVED ON THE SAME BOARD AS AYERS!!!

Bill Ayers led the group that brought $49.2 million to Chicago and formed the Chicago Annenberg Challenge. The kick-off in January 1995 was attended by the governor of Illinois and the mayor of Chicago, as well as many other luminaries. The first chairman of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge was Barack Obama, a post he held until 1999 when he stepped down and remained on the board. Bill Ayers worked closely with the Challenge as a leader of the newly-formed Chicago School Reform Collaborative.
OMG!!! Obama was chairman of an organization that Ayers was part of the group that financed it!!!!

Obama and Ayers served on a panel of four discussing juvenile justice.
OMG!!! WHO COULD THE OTHER TWO PEOPLE ON THAT PANEL HAVE BEEN???? MIGHT THEY HAVE SHADY PASTS TOO????

Obama and Ayers appear on panel of six at Intellectuals, Who Needs Them? conference. Bernadine Dohrn also spoke at conference.
OMG!!! NOW THERE ARE POTENTIALLY FOUR MORE PEOPLE WITH SHADY PASTS THAT OBAMA MIGHT HAVE ASSOCIATED WITH!!!

“Bill Ayers lives in his neighborhood. Their kids attend the same school,” he (Axlerod) said. “They’re certainly friendly, they know each other, as anyone whose kids go to school together.”
THIS IS THE LAST STRAW!!! Obama lives in the SAME NEIGHBORHOOD as Ayers.
     
chris v
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Oct 6, 2008, 07:17 PM
 

When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
     
Mrjinglesusa
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Oct 6, 2008, 07:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by chris v View Post
Good one! Talk about guilt by association!
     
goMac
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Oct 6, 2008, 07:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
THIS IS THE LAST STRAW!!! Obama lives in the SAME NEIGHBORHOOD as Ayers.
OMG their kids go to the same school!

It's probably a domestic terrorist training madrasah!
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Chuckit
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Oct 6, 2008, 07:28 PM
 
It's a little odd that Palin would jump on Wright considering she was blessed by a bishop to turn America into a theocracy without interference from witches.
Chuck
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"Instead of either 'multi-talented' or 'multitalented' use 'bisexual'."
     
chris v
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Oct 6, 2008, 07:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
It's a little odd that Palin would jump on Wright considering she was blessed by a bishop to turn America into a theocracy without interference from witches.
Yeah, the video of her praying with the guy right after he blames all our economic woes on Jewish people... Gosh, darn it, that's mavericky, doncha think?

When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
     
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Oct 6, 2008, 07:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by chris v View Post
Yeah, the video of her praying with the guy right after he blames all our economic woes on Jewish people... Gosh, darn it, that's mavericky, doncha think?
You betcha. (wink)
     
OAW
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Oct 6, 2008, 08:31 PM
 
For all those apologizing for McCain on the Keating 5 issue, here's a Fact Check ....

The Statement: The campaign for Democratic presidential nominee Sen. Barack Obama on Monday, Oct. 6, unveiled a Web site noting that Republican opponent Sen. John McCain played a key role in the Senate's "Keating Five" scandal of the 1980s. "McCain intervened on behalf of Charles Keating with federal regulators tasked with preventing banking fraud, and championed legislation to delay regulation of the savings and loan industry — actions that allowed Keating to continue his fraud at an incredible cost to taxpayers," the site says.

......

In the end, the committee recommended McCain and Sen. John Glenn be dropped from the probe — although McCain was rebuked by the Senate for using "poor judgment" in his relationship with the millionaire banker.

The Verdict: True. McCain did push to delay regulations that would have cracked down on savings-and-loans practices and intervened on Keating's behalf, although he was cleared of wrongdoing in the "Keating Five" case.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...arles-keating/

OAW
     
hyteckit
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Oct 6, 2008, 08:47 PM
 
McCain was on Ellen Show.

McCain loves gay people and supports gay marriages.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
hyteckit
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Oct 6, 2008, 08:48 PM
 
Palin's best friend is gay. She must either be gay or supports gay marriages.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
hyteckit
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Oct 6, 2008, 08:51 PM
 
McCain is palling with Ted Stevens, who McCain received thousands of dollars of campaign money from.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
hyteckit
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Oct 6, 2008, 08:56 PM
 
Conservatives, why beat around the bush. Just say it. Obama is a terrorist because he hangs around terrorist like Ayers.

Obama is palling around with terrorist and has ties to a terrorist. Obama hates America and wants to destroy it.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
Mrjinglesusa
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Oct 6, 2008, 08:58 PM
 
CNN just did a "No Bull" fact check on Palin's claims that Obama "pals around with terrorists". They concluded, as any rational person would, that the ADULT association between Ayers and Obama was and is no more than a casual working "relationship" between two men who moved and worked in the same political circle. There is no "friendship" beyond what one would expect from two men who served on the same board or panel together or who worked on education initiatives together.

The same cannot be said for the friendship between McCain and G. Gordon Liddy.
     
hyteckit
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Oct 6, 2008, 08:59 PM
 
No longer a satire. Black Muslim Barrack HUSSEIN Obama and his "ANGRY" wife doing the "terrorist jab". This is what conservatives really think:

Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
stupendousman
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Oct 6, 2008, 09:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
It's hard to refute "points" that are based on wild accusations lacking any credible proof of any wrong-doing. You ALLEGE that Obama is inappropriately linked to Ayers. People have asked for PROOF of this, other than vague intimations that there is any relationship between the two men. You have FAILED to provide any proof, other than citing articles spouting off the same nonsense you are spouting off here.
HELL AR IOUS!!!

People ask for proof, I provide it, and the rebutall is "it's nonsense".

Pure entertainment, right there!


t is noted that you have conveniently chosen not to address the "inappropriate" relationship between McCain and the convicted felon G. Gordon Libby, which is FAR more substantial (and more recent) than this alleged "relationship" or "mentoring" between Ayers and Obama.
See above. Someone else did a good job of explaining how this line of moral equivalency attempts actually have need some credible equivalency.
     
Mrjinglesusa
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Oct 6, 2008, 09:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
It's a little odd that Palin would jump on Wright considering she was blessed by a bishop to turn America into a theocracy without interference from witches.
Here are some links for you conservatives too lazy to do your fact checking:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080925/...craft_blessing

http://www.journalgazette.net/apps/p...266/1002/local

http://news.aol.com/elections/articl...chcraft/187797

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...r-crashes.html

So, does that mean Palin supports witch hunts?
     
stupendousman
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Oct 6, 2008, 09:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
For all those apologizing for McCain on the Keating 5 issue, here's a Fact Check ....
....whose main fact is that McCain did nothing wrong in the "scandal", yet Obama's inference that he illegally interfered is "true":

CRAZZEEEE!
     
Mrjinglesusa
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Oct 6, 2008, 09:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
Obama involuntarily knows Ayers because they attended the same political function once (and therefore must be best friends according to right wing logic) and live in the same neighborhood so they sometimes bump into each other.

McCain voluntarily brought Liddy onto his campaign, is actively seeking advice from him, and could potentially give him a role in his administration.

Yeah, that's perfectly equal...
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
HELL AR IOUS!!!

People ask for proof, I provide it, and the rebutall is "it's nonsense".

Pure entertainment, right there!

Yet I provided links relating to this "relationship" between Obama and Ayers, which clearly lead any rationale person to conclude that their is no "friendship" there - only two men who happened to run in the same political circle and who were both involved in education initiatives. You have provided NOTHING to substantiate your FALSE claims (and those of Palin) that Obama "pals around with terrorists" or otherwise has any SIGNIFICANT relationship with Ayers. YOU LOSE.

Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
See above. Someone else did a good job of explaining how this line of moral equivalency attempts actually have need some credible equivalency.
See the above quote from goMac. He did a fine job of explaining why the relationship between McCain and Liddy directly relates to the alleged relationship between Obama and Ayers. Obama never sought advice from Ayers and hasn't associated with him in any way in years. McCain is FRIENDS with Liddy to this day.
     
Paco500
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Oct 6, 2008, 09:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
People ask for proof, I provide it, and the rebutall is "it's nonsense".
I can't help myself. Can you PLEASE point to where you provided this proof? Seriously, I'm not saying the proof you provided is nonsense, I'm saying you haven't provided any. At all. Even a little. Not even a shred of proof that might be debatable. None. Zip. Zero.

The one article you posted didn't say what you think it did. At all. And you only (incorrectly) claimed it addressed one issue. The rest of the nonsensical claims you've made have not benefited from even irrelevant citations. Yet you keep pretending that you've backed it all up with facts. Frankly, it's kind of weird.
     
stupendousman
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Oct 6, 2008, 09:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
CNN just did a "No Bull" fact check on Palin's claims that Obama "pals around with terrorists". They concluded, as any rational person would, that the ADULT association between Ayers and Obama was and is no more than a casual working "relationship" between two men who moved and worked in the same political circle. There is no "friendship" beyond what one would expect from two men who served on the same board or panel together or who worked on education initiatives together.
So then there would be no problem if Timothy McVie or Eric Rudolph got off on a technicality, and John McCain had a "casual working 'relationship'" with the men because they "worked in the same political circle" and it wouldn't be a problem for McCain to have accepted an invitation from McVie for a political fundraiser at his house and praised a book by McVie all after it was known that he was a domestic terrorist - AS LONG AS THERE WAS NO "FRIENDSHIP"?

Really....you guys CRACK ME UP. Pure unadulterated comedy. Tears are flowing down my face....stop....stop.

This is why the media isn't trusted anymore.
     
stupendousman
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Oct 6, 2008, 09:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
Yet I provided links relating to this "relationship" between Obama and Ayers, which clearly lead any rationale person to conclude that their is no "friendship" there...
Which is IRRELEVANT. They don't have to be blood brothers, share a bunk bed, or have went skinny dipping together. Obama was supported and mentored by an UNREPENTANT DOMESTIC TERRORIST whose home Obama visited via his own free will, who got him jobs and whose book Obama praised. It doesn't matter if they swap spit, own a timeshare together or name their kids after one another. THEY HAD A DIRECT RELATIONSHIP AS ADULTS that did not revolve around Obama telling the guy to go to hell and shove his anti-american ideals up his #SS as would be the appropriate thing to do to a man who holds the opinions that Ayers does.

Again, as long as someone isn't "friends" with an abortion clinic bomber, is it okay for them to attend parties at their houses, accept political help from them, and praise their books? Yes or no?
     
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Oct 6, 2008, 09:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
I can't help myself. Can you PLEASE point to where you provided this proof?
Look for things called "quotation marks" and "links. if you can't find them in my posts anywhere, I'd say it's time to get a new pair of glasses. I can't help you with that.
     
goMac
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Oct 6, 2008, 09:36 PM
 
If Obama lived near and happened to go to the same function as a sex offender, would that mean he now takes advice from sex offenders?

You can't control who supports you, and you can't control who you live by. Those people that do like to control who they live by frequently live out in the woods all by themselves. There were two to three sex offenders that lived in the neighborhood that I grew up in. Someone I worked with there was arrested as a sex offender while I worked at the place in question.

By right wing logic, I must like to hang out with sex offenders, and I possibly support sex offenders, as would everyone in my old office/neighborhood. It's absurd.
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Paco500
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Oct 6, 2008, 09:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
praised a book by McVie
By this you are implying that Obama praised a book by Ayers. I'm not sure how it happened, and I'm sure it was a mistake, but a bit of truth has seeped into one of your posts. Obama did in fact write a positive review of Ayers book on the Juvenile Justice System. Not exactly a sweeping endorsement of Ayers Weather Underground activities, but it actually happened. As I wrote earlier, when you post something factual, I will acknowledge it. It's a shame the rest, thus far, has just been a pack of lies.
     
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Oct 6, 2008, 09:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
So then there would be no problem if Timothy McVie or Eric Rudolph got off on a technicality, and John McCain had a "casual working 'relationship'" with the men because they "worked in the same political circle" and it wouldn't be a problem for McCain to have accepted an invitation from McVie for a political fundraiser at his house and praised a book by McVie all after it was known that he was a domestic terrorist - AS LONG AS THERE WAS NO "FRIENDSHIP"?
The Oklahoma city bombings are a little larger in scale, don't you think?

If McCain ran into those guys in a context that did not involve terrorism and he was not an accessory to any crimes, then no, I wouldn't hold it against McCain, as long as he denounced terrorism just like Obama did.
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Oct 6, 2008, 09:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
....whose main fact is that McCain did nothing wrong in the "scandal", yet Obama's inference that he illegally interfered is "true":

CRAZZEEEE!
Obama's inference .... no his explicit statement .... is that McCain always pushes for DE-REGULATION. And that "let Corporate America do whatever the hell it wants to do" attitude contributed to the S&L crisis ... just as it has contributed to this current economic crisis. But McCain doesn't seem to get that despite the historical record and continues to push de-regulation at every opportunity. He showed poor judgement before and he's done it again. Yet there are those who will defend that position for ideological reasons despite a plethora of evidence that it is a philosophy that has it's benefits in the short-term, but ultimately leads to economic disaster in the long-term.

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Oct 6, 2008 at 09:51 PM. )
     
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Oct 6, 2008, 09:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Again, as long as someone isn't "friends" with an abortion clinic bomber, is it okay for them to attend parties at their houses, accept political help from them, and praise their books? Yes or no?
  • Would the party at the house be held to promote abortion clinic bombings?
    If so, then NO, it is not okay for them to attend the party.
    If not, then YES, it is okay for them to attend the party.
  • Was the political help for promotion of policies that approve of abortion-clinic bombing?
    If so, then NO, it is not okay for them to accept the political support.
    If not, then YES, it is okay for them to accept the political support.
  • Was the book praise for a work that advocated for abortion-clinic bombings?
    If so, then NO, it is not okay for them to praise such a book.
    If not, then YES, it is okay for them to praise such a book.
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
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Oct 6, 2008, 09:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
If Obama lived near and happened to go to the same function as a sex offender, would that mean he now takes advice from sex offenders?
If that "same function" is an event at the sex offender's house you are invited to whose purpose it is to help Obama personally, and the sex offender helps Obama get positions of power, gives him donations, shares a stage with him and Obama praises a book written by this sex offender I don't think it's a wild claim.

Of course, your scenario doesn't exist. Mine does.
     
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Oct 6, 2008, 09:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
By this you are implying that Obama praised a book by Ayers. I'm not sure how it happened, and I'm sure it was a mistake, but a bit of truth has seeped into one of your posts. Obama did in fact write a positive review of Ayers book on the Juvenile Justice System. Not exactly a sweeping endorsement of Ayers Weather Underground activities, but it actually happened. As I wrote earlier, when you post something factual, I will acknowledge it. It's a shame the rest, thus far, has just been a pack of lies.

     
goMac
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Oct 6, 2008, 10:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
If that "same function" is an event at the sex offender's house
I'd been to his house before...

Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
you are invited to whose purpose it is to help Obama personally,
I'm not sure Obama belongs in this comparison, neither I nor the person in question have ever met Obama...

Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
and the sex offender helps Obama get positions of power, gives him donations, shares a stage with him
I'm sure he spoke up for me from time to time.

Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
and Obama praises a book written by this sex offender I don't think it's a wild claim.
I thought the person in question was a cool guy, but I completely don't support what he did, and Obama doesn't support terrorism.

Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Of course, your scenario doesn't exist. Mine does.
Now I'm a liar?
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Paco500
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Oct 6, 2008, 10:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Look for things called "quotation marks" and "links. if you can't find them in my posts anywhere, I'd say it's time to get a new pair of glasses. I can't help you with that.
Ok, just for fun I went back an re-read all your posts. Let's start with your first set of proofs, called "quotation marks." Everything in this thread you have written in quotes:
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
"guilt by association"
"Democrat Scandal"
"Keating"
"hate America"
"sniff test"
"democrat"
"moral equivalency"
"lies"
"heir apparent"
"gives students a chance to hear about the juvenile justice system not only on a theoretical level, but from the people who have experienced it."
"Flat out and bald faced"
"it's nonsense"
"scandal"
"true"
"casual working 'relationship'"
"worked in the same political circle"
"FRIENDSHIP"
"friends"
"quotation marks"
One last one- you didn't close the quote, but I think it's implied.
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
"links
For our viewers at home, can you please point to the quotes that support your accusations?
Now for the links. When I (or you) say links, I really me link, because you have only provided one:

http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/971106/justice.shtml

Can you please show in here anything that supports your accusations? Now by this I don't mean take a fact reported here and explain what you think may be implied by it. That's not the way facts work.

One last note, I missed a gem you posted earlier.
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Ayers was on the panel. They praised the panel. A basic logical diagram would show you that you're wrong.
A basic logical diagram would in fact show you the exact opposite. You are basing your argument on a logical fallacy known as the "Fallacy of False Cause" or "Non Sequitur." Hope this helps.
( Last edited by Paco500; Oct 6, 2008 at 10:07 PM. Reason: corrected spelling)
     
stupendousman
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Oct 6, 2008, 10:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
The Oklahoma city bombings are a little larger in scale, don't you think?
Yes.

Though, how many people does a terrorist have to kill in order for it to make a difference?

If McCain ran into those guys in a context that did not involve terrorism and he was not an accessory to any crimes, then no, I wouldn't hold it against McCain, as long as he denounced terrorism just like Obama did.
Obama didn't pip a squeek until it came out that he had a professional relationship with a known domestic terrorist.

Obama didn't pip a squeek until it came out that his pastor was a clear cut America hater.

Obama has this habit of denouncing people who he has been a long-time ally of once it becomes politically expedient to do so. Obama's chance to act was back when the only folks watching where his fellow radical liberals who don't have a problem with left-wing domestic terrorism. He chose to align himself with the terrorist in question instead of telling him where to shove his help, support and money.

Action talks - bs walks.
     
stupendousman
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Oct 6, 2008, 10:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Obama's inference .... no his explicit statement .... is that McCain always pushes for DE-REGULATION.
..and yet, McCain pushed for added regulations in regard to F&F which Democrats blocked. Obama offered ABSOLUTELY NOTHING when it came to take a leadership role.

Up is down, right is left. Facts don't matter anymore.
     
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Oct 6, 2008, 10:03 PM
 
What about praise for books by Laura Bush and Ted Kennedy? They are both responsible for killing another person in automobile accidents. Are the people who have praised their books to be deemed morally questionable for having written something in praise of someone who took another person's life? (and in Kennedy's case, probably taking a life with intent)
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Paco500
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Oct 6, 2008, 10:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Facts don't matter anymore.
Does this explain your (at best) casual relationship with them?
     
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Oct 6, 2008, 10:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
[LIST][*]Would the party at the house be held to promote abortion clinic bombings?
If so, then NO, it is not okay for them to attend the party.
If not, then YES, it is okay for them to attend the party.
It's amazing to see the depths people will go to defend the indefensible. Thanks for the gratuitous display.
     
goMac
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Oct 6, 2008, 10:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Yes.

Though, how many people does a terrorist have to kill in order for it to make a difference?
But the scale of the crime does matter. We don't invoke capital punishment for all murderers, do we?

Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Obama didn't pip a squeek until it came out that he had a professional relationship with a known domestic terrorist.
There's no professional relationship. The most mutual contact the right has ever come up with is they both attended the same meetings. Even the sources that the right is citing for all of this clearly say they had no professional relationship.

Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Obama didn't pip a squeek until it came out that his pastor was a clear cut America hater.
Sure, but despite the right editing together fake tape of him being in the audience, he was never there for most of those rants.

Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Obama has this habit of denouncing people who he has been a long-time ally of once it becomes politically expedient to do so. Obama's chance to act was back when the only folks watching where his fellow radical liberals who don't have a problem with left-wing domestic terrorism. He chose to align himself with the terrorist in question instead of telling him where to shove his help, support and money.

Action talks - bs walks.
He didn't mention Ayers because he doesn't personally know the guy and the only person who cares is John McCain.

It's about as relevant as asking John McCain for his entire meal history.
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OldManMac  (op)
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Oct 6, 2008, 10:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
It's amazing to see the depths people will go to defend the indefensible.
Oh, the irony.
Why is there always money for war, but none for education?
     
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Oct 6, 2008, 10:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
For our viewers at home, can you please point to the quotes that support your accusations?
Now for the links. When I (or you) say links, I really me link, because you have only provided one:

http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/971106/justice.shtml

Can you please show in here anything that supports your accusations? Now by this I don't mean take a fact reported here and explain what you think may be implied by it. That's not the way facts work.
Every time i was challenged, I gave a fact to support it. When pressed I provided a quote (where Michelle O praises Ayers and the panel) and a link which is a citation. In return, I get libel. It seems as though you have a bad habit of engaging in false accusations of "lying" only later to have to retract your claims. The latest being that you've apparently found the evidence that Obama praised the work of Ayers that was featured in event at the U of C that the Obamas organized.

PUHLEAZE do your own homework before you start making false accusations. It doesn't make me look bad, it makes you look bad.

One last note, I missed a gem you posted earlier.
A basic logical diagram would in fact show you the exact opposite. You are basing your argument on a logical fallacy known as the "Fallacy of False Cause" or "Non Sequitur." Hope this helps.[/QUOTE]
     
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Oct 6, 2008, 10:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by OldManMac View Post
Oh, the irony.
I'm not the guy giving out the rules as to when it's appropriate to have social meetings with terrorists, as long as terrorism itself isn't discussed.
     
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Oct 6, 2008, 10:21 PM
 
@stupendousman
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
What about praise for books by Laura Bush and Ted Kennedy? They are both responsible for killing another person in automobile accidents. Are the people who have praised their books to be deemed morally questionable for having written something in praise of someone who took another person's life? (and in Kennedy's case, probably taking a life with intent)
Are you going to answer this question?

Since you equate Obama's praise for Ayers book on Juvenile Justice to an endorsement by Obama of Ayers political activities, I would like to know what you think about my examples above.

Do you consider praise for Laura Bush's books related to childhood reading an endorsement of vehicular manslaughter? such that anyone praising her book must also be tainted with the charge of being an advocate for vehicular manslaughter?

Do you consider praise for Ted Kennedy's books related to politics* an endorsement of vehicular manslaughter? such that anyone praising his books must also be tainted with the charge of being an advocate for vehicular manslaughter?

*Coincidentally, Ted Kennedy is also the author of a childrens book. It is about life in Washington, DC written from the vantage point of his dog.
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goMac
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Oct 6, 2008, 10:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
I'm not the guy giving out the rules as to when it's appropriate to have social meetings with terrorists, as long as terrorism itself isn't discussed.
If Timothy McVeigh was released, got his life together, got married, had kids, and attended a local school meeting relevant to his children, I would not brand everyone at the meeting associates of terrorists.

Honestly this is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. If Ayers didn't attend the meeting, he'd be cast as a bad father (not that the media at large would care), if Obama didn't attend the meeting, the right would say he was scared of Ayers, or he has something to hide because he didn't go, or he puts his political career over his kids education. But he did go, so now he is an associate of Ayers who supports terrorism.

What would you have Obama do? Change his kid's school? Move? Stop attending school meetings? What?
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Oct 6, 2008, 10:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Which is IRRELEVANT. They don't have to be blood brothers, share a bunk bed, or have went skinny dipping together. Obama was supported and mentored by an UNREPENTANT DOMESTIC TERRORIST whose home Obama visited via his own free will, who got him jobs and whose book Obama praised. It doesn't matter if they swap spit, own a timeshare together or name their kids after one another. THEY HAD A DIRECT RELATIONSHIP AS ADULTS that did not revolve around Obama telling the guy to go to hell and shove his anti-american ideals up his #SS as would be the appropriate thing to do to a man who holds the opinions that Ayers does.
Completely relevant. Palin said, and right wingers agree, that Obama "pals around with terrorists". This is not true.

Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Again, as long as someone isn't "friends" with an abortion clinic bomber, is it okay for them to attend parties at their houses, accept political help from them, and praise their books? Yes or no?


Now you are grasping.

A) Obama has repeatedly said that he doesn't condone what Ayers did over 40 years (when Obama was 8 years old)

B) Abortion clinic bombers KILL people. No bombing Ayer's was involved in is documented as having killed anyone.

In the ensuing years, Ayers has repeatedly avowed that when he said he had "no regrets" and that "we didn't do enough" he was speaking only in reference to his efforts to stop the United States from waging the Vietnam War, efforts which he has described as ". . . inadequate [as] the war dragged on for a decade." Ayers has maintained that the two statements were not intended to imply a wish they had set more bombs.
     
Mrjinglesusa
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Oct 6, 2008, 10:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Yes.

Though, how many people does a terrorist have to kill in order for it to make a difference?
How many people did Ayers kill (or allegedly kill)? ZERO.
     
stupendousman
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Oct 6, 2008, 10:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
But the scale of the crime does matter. We don't invoke capital punishment for all murderers, do we?
So again, how many murders does a terrorist have to be responsible for in order for it to be unacceptable to engage in social meetings with them?

There's no professional relationship.
Obama's job is politics.

Ayers helped Obama in politics.

Obama went to Ayers home to get introduced to Ayers friends and get funds to start his campaign.

"Dr. Young and another guest, Maria Warren, described it similarly: as an introduction to Hyde Park liberals of the handpicked successor to Palmer, a well-regarded figure on the left. 'When I first met Barack Obama, he was giving a standard, innocuous little talk in the living room of those two legends-in-their-own-minds, Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn,' Warren wrote on her blog in 2005. 'They were launching him -- introducing him to the Hyde Park community as the best thing since sliced bread.'" (Ben Smith, "Obama Once Visited '60s Radicals," The Politico, 1/22/08)

Ayers helped Obama with the start-up of the Annenberg Challenge

In 1997, Obama Praised Ayers' Book in a review in the Chicago Tribune.

Obama helped organize academic panels Ayers was invited to speak at.

Ayers and Obama served together on the Woods fund.

Ayers and Obama are neighbors who are in the same "social circle".

THIS IS A RELATIONSHIP. THIS IS NOT THE WAY A PERSON WHO FINDS ANOTHER PERSON'S POLITICS REPUGNANT CHOOSES TO DEAL WITH THEM. ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU KNOW THEY ARE AN UNREPENTANT DOMESTIC TERRORIST. YOUR SPIN...

FAILS. FAILS.FAILS.FAILS.FAILS.FAILS.FAILS.FAILS.FAILS.

I don't know about you, but if my "social circle" includes unrepentant domestic terrorists whose specialty is bomb making and is only able to be in a "social circle" because of a legal technicality, I'd look into finding a new "social circle". The fact that Obama chose not to speaks volumes.
     
Paco500
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Oct 6, 2008, 10:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Every time i was challenged, I gave a fact to support it.
No you really didn't. You keep saying that but it's just not true.
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
When pressed I provided a quote (where Michelle O praises Ayers and the panel) and a link which is a citation.
The quote praised the panel, not Ayers. Read the article again. Slowly.
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
In return, I get libel. It seems as though you have a bad habit of engaging in false accusations of "lying" only later to have to retract your claims. The latest being that you've apparently found the evidence that Obama praised the work of Ayers that was featured in event at the U of C that the Obamas organized.
I never retracted the claim. Or any claim. The first time you brought up the reference, I agreed it was accurate. It was the first accurate thing you posted. I will gladly retract any claim you prove false. You just haven't bothered to even try.
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
PUHLEAZE do your own homework before you start making false accusations. It doesn't make me look bad, it makes you look bad.
Your problem is that I've done my homework. You just make stuff up and then weirdly claim you've provided evidence for it. You sill haven't. Once. Quit lying and saying you have.
     
goMac
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Oct 6, 2008, 10:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
How many people did Ayers kill (or allegedly kill)? ZERO.
To be fair, he was involved in an accident that killed some of the Weatherman Underground's own members. But none of the intentional bombings he was involved with ever killed anyway. The only death caused by the Weatherman Underground occurred after he left.
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Oct 6, 2008, 10:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
@stupendousman

Are you going to answer this question?
The relevant word in your quote is "accident". What Ayers did was no accident, he never "did his time" for his crime and is unrepentant. Your moral equivalency fails.
     
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Oct 6, 2008, 10:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
How many people did Ayers kill (or allegedly kill)? ZERO.
I believe that five people (including two in law enforcement) died due to the schemes of Bill Ayers.
     
 
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