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Stacks usability (Page 6)
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Oct 30, 2007, 12:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by mjankor View Post
I think I've done a decent job disproving it.
Sadly, that's a delusion. You have done nothing of the kind. Nice try though.

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MartiNZ
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Oct 30, 2007, 12:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by CharlesS View Post
Oh, I doubt that they were unused by the majority of Mac users... the hierarchical Dock menus were quite helpful in easing the transition for switchers, for reasons that should be fairly obvious.
Yeah but the start menu only goes one level deep anyway, and to completely inconsistent levels as windows works. It must be a real surprise to switchers that the applications folder really is just that, rather than a maze of more folders laden with junk and hard to find executables.

From my experience windows users invariably get around the shortcomings by having hundreds of items on the desktop. I don't know many that use windows explorer and to me even that pales vs. hierarchical menus, and is certainly a lot more messy.
     
Wiskedjak
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Oct 30, 2007, 12:25 AM
 
Wow, I had no idea Apple did this to the dock. No way am I buying 10.5 until they fix this.
     
jasonsRX7
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Oct 30, 2007, 12:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by CharlesS View Post
Oh, I doubt that they were unused by the majority of Mac users... the hierarchical Dock menus were quite helpful in easing the transition for switchers, for reasons that should be fairly obvious.
Windows, while being generally a flaming pile of ****, isn't entirely devoid of functionality. The Start menu and its 'All Programs' hierarchical menu sucked, not because hierarchical menus suck, but because it was easily cluttered by any application that decided to throw its icons in there, and not easily modified by the user.

Dock menus didn't have that problem, since they're just a reflection of however you organize the folder itself, which isn't difficult to do.

Seriously, how retarded does someone have to be in order to have usability difficulty with dock menus?

And Erik, I think the existence of thread, and the overall resounding opinion that Stacks are generally less useful than Dock menus, should be proof enough that the Dock menus should still exist for those who want to use them. After all, this thread is called "Stacks Usability" not "Stacks Suck" even though that seems to be the majority opinion.
     
mjankor
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Oct 30, 2007, 12:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
Sadly, that's a delusion. You have done nothing of the kind. Nice try though.
Hey dopey, you made the claim, it's up to you to prove it. Are you going to accept the test I proposed on page 5?
     
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Oct 30, 2007, 01:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by jasonsRX7 View Post
And Erik, I think the existence of thread, and the overall resounding opinion that Stacks are generally less useful than Dock menus, should be proof enough that the Dock menus should still exist for those who want to use them. After all, this thread is called "Stacks Usability" not "Stacks Suck" even though that seems to be the majority opinion.
Overall resounding opinion? I'm sorry. A very vocal minority is just that...vocal. And in the minority. Hierarchical menus for navigation is an inferior way of navigating, no matter how many people got stuck with it because they were used to it.

Yes, it sucks that a feature was removed with something of dubious value (not arguing that point), but think of it as a kick in the rear to become more efficient. Why not try out Spotlight? Or smart folders? Finder navigation with QuickLook and CoverFlow. All great navigational options

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Oct 30, 2007, 01:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by mjankor View Post
Hey dopey, you made the claim, it's up to you to prove it. Are you going to accept the test I proposed on page 5?
Your test is flawed, so no. And keep the name-calling to yourself if you ever expect a reply again. Thank you.

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jasonsRX7
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Oct 30, 2007, 01:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
Why not try out Spotlight? Or smart folders? Finder navigation with QuickLook and CoverFlow. All great navigational options
I use Spotlight and Smart Folders to the extent that they are useful, which as I and others have pointed out in this thread, is certainly not in every situation. Spotlight is exceptionally useless when it comes to opening multiple files with the same name, again, already pointed out in this thread.

Smart Folders are powerful, and I really quite love them, but they aren't the solution for this problem. With Apple's changes, and things being so geared toward people who just don't know where the hell their files are, it's almost like I'm being penalized for keeping things in a structured order.

It's like they want me to just throw all my stuff in one directory that is so cluttered that the only way to find anything is to have the OS find it for me. I KNOW where all my stuff is, I can get to it in a split second with Dock menus, and without the need to open a Finder window, or type searches in Spotlight.
     
mjankor
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Oct 30, 2007, 03:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
Your test is flawed, so no. And keep the name-calling to yourself if you ever expect a reply again. Thank you.
Why is the revised test flawed?
And where are your links backing up your claims. The onus is on you to prove your claims, not on us to prove it for you.
You're the one who claims to be a usability expert.
     
CharlesS
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Oct 30, 2007, 03:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
Sadly, that's a delusion. You have done nothing of the kind. Nice try though.
Well, that sure convinced me.

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dggraphics
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Oct 30, 2007, 03:37 AM
 
Look at the last line.
Anyone know the proper defaults boolean to get this menu option to appear?

DockMenus.strings

TURN_HIDING_ON = "Turn Hiding On";
TURN_HIDING_OFF = "Turn Hiding Off";
TURN_MAG_ON = "Turn Magnification On";
TURN_MAG_OFF = "Turn Magnification Off";
POSITION_ON_SCREEN = "Position on Screen";
LEFT = "Left";
BOTTOM = "Bottom";
RIGHT = "Right";
MINIMIZE_USING = "Minimize Using";
GENIE_EFFECT = "Genie Effect";
SCALE_EFFECT = "Scale Effect";
DOCK_PREFS = "Dock Preferences…";
REMOVE_FROM_DOCK = "Remove from Dock";
OPEN_AT_LOGIN = "Open at Login";
SHOW_IN_FINDER = "Show in Finder";
OPEN_FILENAME = "Open “%@”";
OPEN = "Open";
SHOW_NAME = "Show %@";
MORE_WIDGETS = "More Widgets…";
DASHBOARD_PREFS = "Dashboard Preferences…";
SHOW_DASHBOARD = "Show Dashboard";
APPLICATION_NOT_RESPONDING = "Application Not Responding";
HIDE = "Hide";
HIDE_OTHERS = "Hide Others";
SHOW = "Show";
RELAUNCH = "Relaunch";
SORT_BY = "Sort by";
NAME = "Name";
DATE_ADDED = "Date Added";
DATE_MODIFIED = "Date Modified";
DATE_CREATED = "Date Created";
KIND = "Kind";
EJECT = "Eject";
RENAME_STACK = "Rename Stack";
RECENT_APPS = "Recent Applications";
RECENT_DOCS = "Recent Documents";
RECENT_SERVERS = "Recent Servers";
FAV_VOLS = "Favorite Volumes";
FAV_ITEMS = "Favorite Items";
KEEP_IN_DOCK = "Keep in Dock";
QUIT = "Quit";
FORCE_QUIT = "Force Quit";
EMPTY_TRASH = "Empty Trash";
SHOW_AS = "View as";
AUTOMATIC = "Automatic";
FAN = "Fan";
GRID = "Grid";
LIST = "List";
     
mjankor
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Oct 30, 2007, 03:41 AM
 
Interesting

Not just "List" but also

"Rename Stack" <- that won't be applicable if stacks are always folders. Maybe the original stack design is still accessible somehow.
"Keep in Dock"
"Favourite Volumes" "Favourite Docs" and "Favourite Apps"
"More Widgets"
     
vertigociel
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Oct 30, 2007, 05:53 AM
 
Interesting - I've been trying to enable List view through the com.apple.dock.plist, but haven't been able to manage it. I've found the number to change to get automatic, fan, and grid view (0 is auto, 1 is fan, 2 grid), but changing it to "3", alas, only puts it back in automatic sorting.

I also managed to get it to act as a folder - if you change the "tile-type" string to "folder-tile", it'll show up with its own icon in the dock, like so:

(That's the download stack on the far left, a stack full of servers next to it, and my Home directory as a folder to the right of that).

However, you can't browse the contents with a right-click of the folder, as in Tiger. Instead, you only get this:

It's sort of an advancement - you can have your folders easily distinguishable with custom icons again, and one click to open the finder window, but you can't easily browse it with a secondary click. So close!
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Oct 30, 2007, 06:03 AM
 
I can get the menu item to appear quite easily, but I can't make it do anything at all.

Open /System/Library/CoreServices/DockInactive.app/Contents/Resources/DockMenus.plist in a text editor with root privileges and search for the text 6003. Now add another dict entry like this:
<dict>
<key>command</key>
<integer>6004</integer>
<key>name</key>
<string>LIST</string>
</dict>
All you're changing is 6003 to something else (in this case 6004) and GRID to LIST. Save the file and restart the Dock and you've got your new menu which only shows with the dock on the bottom of the screen. If we can find the right command number, we might be able to get it to work..
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vertigociel
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Oct 30, 2007, 06:35 AM
 
I can't find any command that seems to do the trick in the "folder" part of DockMenus.plist. It's possible Apple took the right-click navigation out completely. Do you have a Tiger version of DockMenus? The correct command has to be in there, the only question is if they changed/removed it in Leopard.

If they did, might not it be possible to build another one? I'm thinking something similar to how Applications can extend their dock menus - for example, you can access any pref panes from System Preferences' dockmenu when it's open. I don't have experience with native OS X programming, so I'm not sure how that works. It seems to me that that might be a possibility, though.
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Oct 30, 2007, 08:37 AM
 
Personally, having found stacks unusable, I just stuck aliases of the 4 folders I had there on the Desktop instead. With Expose, getting to them fast and opening them in a window is surprisingly satisfying, so I'm having a great retro back-to-the-early-90s moment here.

Desktop > Dock!

Stacks are like a total combined mis-interpretation of both the 'piles' concept and tabbed windows from OS 9.

The 'piles' idea of browsable stacks became what are now 'events' in iPhoto and iMovie and I really love that- shame that the Finder stacks don't have that hovering browsability. As for the tabbed windows, well, the 10.4 Dock folders could have evolved to match their fluidity, it would've been a matter of just a few tweaks.
( Last edited by Judge_Fire; Oct 30, 2007 at 08:48 AM. )
     
tuqqer
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Oct 30, 2007, 08:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by mjankor View Post
Why is the revised test flawed?
And where are your links backing up your claims. The onus is on you to prove your claims, not on us to prove it for you.
You're the one who claims to be a usability expert.
Pretty sure you lost him and others with the name calling, bud.
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mjankor
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Oct 30, 2007, 09:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by tuqqer View Post
Pretty sure you lost him and others with the name calling, bud.
Yeah possibly. Doesn't really matter though as I doubt he was ever going to back up his claim. I very rarely call people names on forums, but occasionally some people push the right buttons.

I mean, ffs, if I came on here and posted something about, for example, Windows being more usable and efficient than the Mac OS I'd be dragged over hot coals. I'd deserve it too, unless I could validate my claim.

Frankly, in eric's case, I consider the name I called him to be a bit too lenient. Posturing about his job title while making claims he has no interest in proving is behaviour more commonly found under bridges.

At least I'm prepared to do the tests. All I need is his agreement that it's a reasonable test and shows a good example of a real life scenario. I believe I've set out and explained pretty clearly my reasoning for the test structure.
     
Big Mac
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Oct 30, 2007, 09:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by tuqqer View Post
Pretty sure you lost him and others with the name calling, bud.
Trust me, Erik deserved it and more.

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Geobunny
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Oct 30, 2007, 09:20 AM
 
Any chance we could get back on topic before it's too late?
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Big Mac
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Oct 30, 2007, 09:22 AM
 
Sorry. You're making great progress, Geo. Keep up the good work.

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Wiskedjak
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Oct 30, 2007, 12:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Geobunny View Post
Well well well, it seems you can use the Dock from 10.4 which gives you navigable contextual menus back! There are a few caveats but in my opinion it's well worth the loss.

...
1) You lose Spaces. Happily there are a number of free 3rd party apps which still work to a certain extent although you can't move windows between different virtual desktops after the window is open but I can live with that.
2) The Dock doesn't hide automatically when you go into Time Machine. Happily, command-option-D takes care of that (and the desktop icons are still dock-aware).
3) Dashboard loses the speed increase brought about by the Leopard Dock, but you only notice that on first entry to Dashboard.
4) iCal's icon goes back to being static. Meh, easy come easy go.
...
Nice. Considering I automatically disable Dashboard and don't use iCal and have no intention of using Spaces or Time Machine, none of these caveats bother me.
     
ibnabouna
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Oct 30, 2007, 12:13 PM
 
Hello,

I love Stacks and believe it is a great feature.

Thanks.
     
MindFad
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Oct 30, 2007, 01:07 PM
 
You tell 'em.
     
Hal Itosis
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Oct 30, 2007, 07:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by ibnabouna View Post
Hello, I love Stacks and believe it is a great feature. Thanks.
 
I'm starting to like Stacks as well... but that's not the real point.

These functions could coexist as options, from which we could choose.

You do like "choice", right? Wouldn't it be better if we all could be as
happy as you seem to be? [I hear betas of Leopard had both features.]

Stacks is the old System 7.5 (or 8?) Launcher with some bells and whistles.
It can be configured to do one of two things well: launch an app... or open
some particular folder. I like what it does do. I *miss* what it doesn't do.
( Last edited by Hal Itosis; Oct 30, 2007 at 07:37 PM. )
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Naturalle554
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Oct 30, 2007, 08:09 PM
 
I assumed that Stacks was going to be relatively useless. I've used You Control since Now Software went away and absolutely love it. I used the dock only to launch the 8 apps I have in it.

Due to the variety of new interface changes, I assumed You Control would break. Amazingly, it did not, although Fruit Menu did. I have totally relied on these for navigation and no longer understand navigating any other way. Everything I need is only 2 clicks away.

I liked the demo look of the fan spread and thought maybe it would have some value. After installing Leopard, I found the fan useless; It's difficult to see, and with more than about 4 items, it's a chore to find things.

I installed on Friday. Strangely, after a couple days use, I found I was actually using Stacks grid form. I have totally integrated it into how I navigate, even though You Control still works. I am glad that when I click folders in that view that they open the actual folder in the finder but I can see the need for an option that allows users to drill through the folders, because, some of you, are different.

I think it will be a good thing and has room for feature improvement. If you're holding off on Leopard due to concerns about this feature, don't worry about it. You'll find a way.

     
mjankor
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Oct 30, 2007, 08:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Naturalle554 View Post
I think it will be a good thing and has room for feature improvement. If you're holding off on Leopard due to concerns about this feature, don't worry about it. You'll find a way.

Absolutely. Don't let our gripes about stacks put you off Leopard. In my opinion, other than the Menubar, a Finder bug and the Stacks the rest of the OS is a very very good improvement.

Screen sharing, Time machine, the new Finder networking are huge improvements.

For those who miss the docked folders, try Xmenus. It's not quite as good as Tigers docked folders but it's free and effective.

Here's hoping Stacks goes from being the runt of the litter to alpha dog soon. Hopefully while returning our heirarchical menus too.

Edit:
I just figured out another reason I don't like stacks. I have always used a download folder, very similar to the downloads folder Stacks provide, but I'll often do other maintenance tasks such as deleting old downloads, getting rid of extra zip files, etc, when I go and check out my latest download. Stacks actually gets in the way because it's good for quick access to one file, not for several files.
     
dggraphics
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Oct 31, 2007, 01:38 AM
 
Geobunny try command 2000 in the DockMenus plist for the LIST option.

I was hoping that 2000 is the generic code to show list view.
     
mjankor
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Oct 31, 2007, 04:15 AM
 
I think 2000 is code for a separator.

Anyone got a DockMenus Plist from Tiger floating around?
     
vertigociel
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Oct 31, 2007, 05:15 AM
 
2000 is the command for a separator.

I really wish I hadn't deleted my old Tiger backup now... although I'm beginning to suspect Apple took the hierarchical menu navigation system out all together, since there's no mention of it in the "folder" section of DocMenus.plist.
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nat
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Oct 31, 2007, 08:27 AM
 
For years I've used two alias folders in the Dock plus I dragged the hard drive onto it so I could right click to anywhere, but now they're all useless in Leopard.

So, after a few years of not using it (I still have a license I believe), there's only one solution for me:

Dragthing
     
Geobunny
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Oct 31, 2007, 10:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by mjankor View Post
I think 2000 is code for a separator.

Anyone got a DockMenus Plist from Tiger floating around?
2000 is the code for a separator and I've had a look at the tiger dock's plist and there's nothing useful in there at all as the "view as" option didn't exist back then.
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ShotgunEd
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Oct 31, 2007, 10:10 AM
 
I didn't use the right click menu of docked folders in Tiger and as such, think that stacks are quite good. I do wish that stacks had some sort of visual feedback as you scrub through the items. Maybe a subtler magnification similar to the dock.
     
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Oct 31, 2007, 10:20 AM
 


This was my horror scenario for my Applications folder, and it became reality. I now have the Adobe GoLive folder represent my programs. This is really the last thing I want as the icon for my Applications folder. I previously had the Applications folder already in the Dock, and in Tiger I could launch the Adobe and iWork programs by navigating into the submenu. In Leopard it simply opens the parent folder of those programs where I have to double-click them and close the folder afterwords.

So I lost functionality in Leopard, and it looks worse too. Not a good tradeoff for me.
     
Big Mac
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Oct 31, 2007, 11:01 AM
 
If a certain person would be a team player and lead us to the pre-release Tiger Dock with Spaces, we'd have Spaces and a good Dock.

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SteveTech
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Oct 31, 2007, 11:08 AM
 
I found this on MacOSXhints.com

To place a folder in the dock without turning it into a Stack, you just have to create an alias of the folder, place this somewhere and drag it to the right side of the dock. The alias will behave like a folder, not a stack. This hint is for all the people who wants back their own nice icons in the dock.
     
Big Mac
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Oct 31, 2007, 11:10 AM
 
But it doesn't give us our folder list menus back.

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SteveTech
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Oct 31, 2007, 11:23 AM
 
True - But I didn't use the list menus myself. But I'm sure there will be a 'fix' at some point.
     
jasonsRX7
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Oct 31, 2007, 12:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by SteveTech View Post
I found this on MacOSXhints.com

To place a folder in the dock without turning it into a Stack, you just have to create an alias of the folder, place this somewhere and drag it to the right side of the dock. The alias will behave like a folder, not a stack. This hint is for all the people who wants back their own nice icons in the dock.
I also discovered that and posted it in this very thread
     
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Oct 31, 2007, 03:54 PM
 
I saw another cool hint today: since the front icon in a stack is alphabetically-first (provided you sort by name), just add a folder with a funky name and funky icon for easy identification in the Dock. See here: Custom Stacks Icons - The Apple Blog
     
Big Mac
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Oct 31, 2007, 03:56 PM
 
It's outrageous to have to resort to such measures.

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Oct 31, 2007, 04:15 PM
 
It's just like having to create a new folder for a custom stack. Horrid, no, but annoying and unnecessary, yes. I would be mostly happy with stacks if they had kept the make a selection and drag to the dock feature.
     
Jasoco
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Oct 31, 2007, 06:59 PM
 
Stacks should at least have badges that always show up at the front on top of the content. The badge would be the folder. Like when you minimize a window and it gets the applications icon.

Either that or put them in a box. And have the box have the icon on it. Or hell, just let us set it to "Always show folder icon" as well as "Show front item on top".

Stacks need work. I love the idea. I love having my Downloads go down there instead of the desktop but still let me see the recent item, I LOVE it. But I can't make other Stacks because they end up looking generic. Else I'd have my Home folder down there.

Also, someone had mentioned a "Disks Stack" by linking to /Volumes/" but that is a horrible thing. For one, the Volumes folder contains Aliases, and the aliases all have the wrong icons! My DVD's show up as removable disks. Not as DVD's. Plus they have the ugly Alias icon on it. I never liked that when I used Windows. And I like it even less on OS X. This could be solved much easier if they let us drag the "Computer" pseudo-folder to the Dock. THAT would be cool. I would probably take my disks off the desktop if they did.



What the heck is that? In CoverFlow they show up as their real desktop icons. But in the list below, and the Stack, they show up as aliases to generic icons. Unacceptable. Please fix, Apple!
     
Geobunny
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Oct 31, 2007, 07:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShotgunEd View Post
I do wish that stacks had some sort of visual feedback as you scrub through the items. Maybe a subtler magnification similar to the dock.
You mean like this?


In Terminal:
defaults write com.apple.dock mouse-over-hilte-stack -bool YES
killall Dock
...and yes, that does say hilte - there's no 'i' between the L and T.
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schalliol
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Nov 1, 2007, 12:05 AM
 
I also miss the folder tree option from 10.4. I don't see why we couldn't have that feature on top of the other options.
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Mebsat
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Nov 1, 2007, 12:13 AM
 
I always have missed the OS9 Apple menu but I found FruitMenu to be completely unstable.

I use Classic Menu from sigsoftware. It's cheap and small. It even lets you access both the OSX menu and your own with a mouse over. Plus you can drag things right to it to add. The author just posted a note that it is Leopard compatible and that he's fixing the background for the transparency.

I know this sounds like a plug, but I just really love this app.

Sometimes you really want to use just the mouse.
     
voodoo
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Nov 1, 2007, 12:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by Mebsat View Post
I always have missed the OS9 Apple menu but I found FruitMenu to be completely unstable.

I use Classic Menu from sigsoftware. It's cheap and small. It even lets you access both the OSX menu and your own with a mouse over. Plus you can drag things right to it to add. The author just posted a note that it is Leopard compatible and that he's fixing the background for the transparency.

I know this sounds like a plug, but I just really love this app.

Sometimes you really want to use just the mouse.
Plug or no: I approve of this app!

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MartiNZ
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Nov 1, 2007, 01:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by Geobunny View Post
You mean like this?


In Terminal:


...and yes, that does say hilte - there's no 'i' between the L and T.
Interesting! That's cool, but doesn't work in 'fan' mode hmmm. Using cursor keys to move through the fan does 'hilte' the items though .
     
Jasoco
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Nov 1, 2007, 01:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by MartiNZ View Post
Interesting! That's cool, but doesn't work in 'fan' mode hmmm. Using cursor keys to move through the fan does 'hilte' the items though .
That's cool. But it would be more useful if there was a way to set a Stack to a key combination. (Yeah, I know about turning on Keyboard navigation. I just want to press a single key combo to jump to the Stack and pop it out.)
     
MartiNZ
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Nov 1, 2007, 04:25 AM
 
Yep, that would be very cool. I'm wondering if that sort of thing can be set up through Automator or similar? I have just managed to come up with an action to click on a stack by the new record feature ... I'm just not sure what to do with it from there, weird program.
     
 
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