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OptimusG4 · Feb 19, 2003, 04:04 PM

Developer · Feb 19, 2003, 04:06 PM

FUD: Will they kill the Mac version? Or will they use the emulator to port Internet Explorer?

OptimusG4 · Feb 19, 2003, 04:09 PM

Damn database errors...anyway, I put this in the wrong forum, sorry if anyone gets pissed. At least you know now

dreilly1 · Feb 19, 2003, 04:11 PM

More info at http://news.com.com/2100-1001-985149.html

They specifically say they didn't buy VPC in order to kill it, and that updates will continue.

Anyone who remembers Bungie care to comment on that?

Hi I'm Ben · Feb 19, 2003, 04:11 PM

"reload reload reload"
ok now i can post.. anyway.
i think that's funny. I want to build a program and microsoft to buy it off me. I don't care who it affects.. I'm not building programs and charging you for them so you can be happy.. i'm doing it for my own personal benefit.

Maybe microsoft will make it even better for mac.. why would they ever DROP support for mac with it? It's just another program that makes them money.

Pepi Picklefoot · 04:32 PM

Originally posted by dreilly1:
More info at http://news.com.com/2100-1001-985149.html

They specifically say they didn't buy VPC in order to kill it, and that updates will continue.

Anyone who remembers Bungie care to comment on that?

Well...everything MS has bought has withered and died so far. You may argue the contrary about Bungie...but let's face it: Bungie was pretty much forced to change Halo to play on the Xbox and they're not responsible for the PC and Mac port underway nearly a year and a half after it's release.

The Bungie I used to know and care about is DEAD! They do not make games for Mac anymore and I've got Microsoft to thank for that.

Of all the game developers out there, MS had to buy one of the few very talented Mac game developer...once a Mac-only company, they produced and shipped its own games PC/Mac games as opposed to porting existing PC ones.

Now Connectix, also a Mac-only company at the beginning, producers of the only decent PC emulator is being gobbled up by the software giant inconveniently called Microsoft.

cashg · Feb 19, 2003, 04:36 PM

Yeah, they'll improve VPC...so much so that it will be REQUIRED to run the next version of IE 6 and Office.

A good way of trapping your into the Windows world.

hardcat1970 · Feb 19, 2003, 04:42 PM

I posted half an hour ago.

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...hreadid=147086

gorickey · Feb 19, 2003, 04:43 PM

Interesting, I'm not sure how to take all of this in...but, I truly think that Virtual PC will live on and actually get better.

Camelot · Feb 19, 2003, 04:56 PM

OK, here's where this is going:

FACT: Microsoft is a software company

FACT: Microsoft wants mindshare and marketshare

FACT: Microsoft want their products to be the only ones used by users - see IE, Windows Media, etc.

FACT: Microsoft is losing OS mindshare to other OS's including Mac OS X and Linux

FACT: Microsoft do not need hardware sales to make money.

Given these facts, I fully expect Virtual PC technology (not necessarily the app itself) to more fully integrate with MS apps on the Mac - maybe to the point where MS only ship ONE app based on the WinAPIs, relying on emulation technology (Virtual PC) to run that app on non-MS OS's

What this means is that Windows-specific products like Access may come to the Mac, there'd be more feature-parity between the Windows and Mac OS versions of existing apps and, more importantly, it strenghens the use of the Windows APIs by developers - if a developer is already using Win APIs, s/he can automatically get a Mac OS version of their app by licensing and embedding the emulation technology in their app, thereby extending the reach of WinAPI, and MS regains the ground lost in OS sales.

Is this good or bad? who knows. If it lowers the barriers to installing Mac OS systems then it's a good thing, but how well it's handled will be a factor.

If MS deliberately hobble the software (nooo.. they'd nevvvvveeerrr do that! riiiight!) so that performance was inferior on non Windows OS's then that would be bad "Oh, you want performance with that app, sir? then you need to upgrade to a Windows system... bleugh!

Also, how well they connect to the Mac OS look and feel is another aspect. If we get ugly Windows look-and-feel - menus, windows, etc. then that would be bad, but if they can use the Aqua look and feel (which should be entirely possible - look at Apple's X11) then it may not be so bad.

So, in all, I think Virtual PC, the app, is dead, but the technology behind it has a long potential life.

C.A.S. · Feb 19, 2003, 05:05 PM

Let's pray that Apple is REALLY working on Merkle and that IT WILL run on INTEL machines...

That will finally shut M$ up....

Diggory Laycock · Feb 19, 2003, 05:13 PM

Bungie - (Halo) - Gone to MS
Rare - (Perfect Dark, GoldenEye) - Gone to MS
Connectix (VPC) - Gone to MS

Some times it seems like MS only exists to make my life hell.

b11051973 · Feb 19, 2003, 05:17 PM

I don't see how MS could make VPC any worse. It's already the slowest piece of crap I've ever seen.

I could see MS making VPC better and quit making Mac specific software altogether. That way if you want to run Office on your Mac, you have to do it through VPC. It would be cheaper for them to just develop one application(VPC) then 10(Word, Excel, PowerPoint, IE...).

KidRed · Feb 19, 2003, 05:18 PM

It's Marklar.

I'm nervous. Some of you think M$ is in it for the money. I'm not so sure. M$ is loosing ground to Linux and OS X is starting to get switchers. Some of those switchers will use VPC to run those apps they absolutely need to function. If all of a sudden they can not run any windows software they absolutely need, the mac won't seem so viable a solution.

This has me really concerned. Where's IE 6 after all?

Voch · Feb 19, 2003, 05:27 PM

How's about the goofy theory that Microsoft is doing this to get Virtual Game Station to run on the XBox?

I don't know what to think. I find VPC handy sometimes.

gorickey · Feb 19, 2003, 05:29 PM

Hopefully Microsoft can make VPC run these forums better w/out any database issues.

There seems to have been a slight problem with the database.

Slight?

No, no, no...try MAMMOTH PROBLEM! My reload button is beginning to break down.

JLL · Feb 19, 2003, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by Voch:
How's about the goofy theory that Microsoft is doing this to get Virtual Game Station to run on the XBox?

Uhm, Sony bought Virtual Game Station from Connectix.

cashg · Feb 19, 2003, 05:34 PM

Here is what I see:

M$ will improve the performance of VPC through it's ver 6 life cycle to match a Pentium running at the same speed as your Mac. Sales of ver 6 will take off due to performance of running Windows apps (revenue stream #1).

M$ will introduce ver 7 with SEAMLESS integration with OS X (Windows programs that run in their own window) and performance equivalent to a Pentium running at the same clock speed as your Mac. To get that feature though, you will have to buy (revenue stream #2) a VPC specific copy of Windows XP.

Version 7.5 - 8.0 will no longer work with off-the-shelf copies of Windows and Linux but ONLY with copies of Windows for VPC (license control). An SDK will be released to allow developers to tie their code into VPC so that multiple developement branches (one Windows version, one Mac version) are unnecessary. All developers will now only develope for Windows and VPC Windows.

So in the future, everyone who buys a Mac, will also have to buy a copy of VPC and Windows (revenue stream #3) to run some of the more popular programs.

Am I paranoid?

Toyin · Feb 19, 2003, 05:41 PM

Originally posted by b11051973:
I don't see how MS could make VPC any worse. It's already the slowest piece of crap I've ever seen.

I could see MS making VPC better and quit making Mac specific software altogether. That way if you want to run Office on your Mac, you have to do it through VPC. It would be cheaper for them to just develop one application(VPC) then 10(Word, Excel, PowerPoint, IE...).

I agree VPC on OSX is a piece of crap. Microsoft could conceivably make VPC significantly faster because they have access to the inards of Windows. [wild speculation]Instead of emulating an x86 processor they could translate instructions at a lower level. If this was optimized enough, this could also give windows the distinct possiblity of being able to run on both x86 and PPC chips, further insuring Microsoft's monopoly[/wild speculation]

As far as killing VPC. In 2-3years if they decide to do this, I don't think there will be many applications that will have to run on VPC.

CharlesS · Feb 19, 2003, 05:43 PM

Son of a bitch indeed.

This is the kind of thing that wouldn't be a problem if MS were broken up into an OS company and an application company. Too bad the powers that be don't seem to realize this...

anarkisst · Feb 19, 2003, 05:50 PM

Now all that Microshaft has to aquire is DataViz and they'll have Apple by the balls...

Actually, that is more horrifying. Imagine if they did aquire DataViz's MacOpener. Then you wouldn't need a Mac at all to open Mac files on a Windows PC...the horror...the horror...

mamamia · Feb 19, 2003, 06:59 PM

i find it hard to believe that apple didn't have notice that this was going to happen. that being the case, they must have received assurance from microcrap that they would not kill the program. if apple didn't believe these assurances, i bet they would have bid top dollar to bring it in house.
the software is critical.

Hi I'm Ben · Feb 19, 2003, 07:04 PM

i love when microsoft buys people. it's hilarious.

and then.. you all get mad at microsoft as if it was there fault... however wouldn't you put the blame on connectix? they're the ones that sold it.

Think of it this way... microsoft obviously sees this as money in their pocket why would they neglect making money?

"oh look a dollar on the ground!.. i think i'll leave it there for someone else to pick up"

:XI: · Feb 19, 2003, 07:27 PM

so, is MS finally going to kill java by turning windows into a VM? 'compile once, run anywhere'?

Voch · Feb 19, 2003, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by JLL:
Uhm, Sony bought Virtual Game Station from Connectix.

Ah yes. I forgot about that.

Maybe MS can use their Windows knowledge to do some performance enhancements to VPC for Mac. That's an optimistic view of this, I guess.

Voch

Wet Jimmy · Feb 19, 2003, 08:15 PM

I for one am of the belief that this will only improve Virtual PC's performance and am happy for it - provided MS get to work on a '.' upgrade ASAP, that is.

gregpins · Feb 19, 2003, 08:23 PM

I haven't got myself flamed in a while, so here goes.

VPC is not the issue.

The issue is Office.

Say Microsoft is able to substantially improve VPC so that it is usable day-to-day.

Why wouldn't they simply do away with the MacBU, cease development of Office and require Mac users to buy VPC and a copy of Office for Windows and emulate? They still get to sell to Mac users, but save enormously on development costs by focusing Mac resources on one product.

And why wouldn't other software companies who currently develop for both platforms follow suit?

And if you're emulating Windows all day, why bother with a Mac in the first place?

I think this is a very ominous development. The most important developer of Macintosh software � Microsoft (accept it) � has made a clear move away from support for the platform. No MS Office = No Mac. And if Keynote is any indication of what we can expect from a Mac office suite (a long way away ready for prime time), then I am truly afraid. iLife is cute, but I have to be able to do work on my system.

If you look past the uncritical hype of the Mac press and the ferocity of die-hard devotees who shout down any criticism of Apple's strategy, I believe the facts point to a Mac platform in real trouble.

* Market share continues to dwindle. I know some people think this is no big deal. I wonder when they think it would be a big deal. When we hit 2%? 1%?

* OS X is still rough around the edges and PowerPC chip speed is lagging far behind Wintel. Macs as little as one year old are unacceptably slow for power users, and I fear Apple is not focusing on performance in order to try to force hardware purchases. With each update, I hope for performance parity with Windows systems of similar vintage. I'm still waiting.

* Mac system prices are very high (go price out a Dell system and a similarly equipped Mac system. The difference is substantial).

* Apple is stretched too thin -- too many products, not enough resources to maintain them all. 4 lines of computer hardware(eMac, iMac/Book, Power Mac/Book, XServe), an operating system, an increasingly large share of the platform's software (pro and consumer), consumer electronics -- they've bitten off more than they can chew.

I love the Mac (really I do), and I am praying that things turn around. But I'm feeling increasingly pessimistic about the future of the platform.

gorickey · 11:46 PM

Only one thing left to do...

Time for Apple to make OS X run on X86 boxes!

[Note: I am kidding]

varob · Feb 19, 2003, 08:49 PM

Paranoia @ MS Style = try to log in here using Netscape [even the phrase "Refresh" is used here instead of "Reload" when a Forum is having a loading problem] ? ? ? ?

echosphere · Feb 19, 2003, 11:45 PM

OMFG, we're gonna die without Windows!

webb3201 · Feb 19, 2003, 11:56 PM

Microsoft is more concerned about Sun, Linux and the Enterprise market than they are about Apple. If they wanted to kill Apple, they could simply stop making Office for Mac and stop the switchers at the door.

This was done to allow them to offer the ability to run VMs on Enterprise Servers. Developers would be able to run three virtual machines on one hardware platform (much like we can with VPC 6.0.

We may actually get an improved VPC from them, provided they update the Mac version.

Homer1946 · Feb 19, 2003, 11:57 PM

Originally posted by echosphere:
OMFG, we're gonna die without Windows!

I don't think MS will kill VPC. If you think about it, MS is all about selling copies of windows, and then selling Windows software to run on it. In reality, VPC is just selling a PC. It's software than emulates PC hardware, it requires a Windows license to run Windows, and requires (as much as any PC) purchasing windows software to run on it. In reality all they are doing is selling PC's to Mac people. Why would they not want to do this?

Also, we all know that, for now, MS has an interest in keeping the Mac alive as their "official" competition. They fear Linux, not the Mac OS.

-R

mrtew · Feb 20, 2003, 12:07 AM

I wish Apple had bought VPC and made it into an OSX pref pane. It would be such sweet revenge to see the entire M$ operating system reduced to just being a control panel on a Mac. Oh well. I wouldn't want to run an M$ program on my computer anyway. It makes me feel dirty.

echosphere · Feb 20, 2003, 12:31 AM

Good points Homer! Wow, think you summed up in a paragraph what people have been discussing on the web all day about this.

Was just kidding with my post. Though isn't it ironic that we fear the invasion of MS in our boxes and world domination, yet we're freaking out if they decided to pull the plug on VPC?

Yesterday people were saying "woohoo, Keynote and Safari are ridding my Mac of Micro$oft. Today, many of those same people are worried that MS might discontinue VPC.

Any, yeah, I have to use VPC/Wind98SE for work, but mrtew is right, it does make me feel dirty.

pmcd · Feb 20, 2003, 12:55 AM

Originally posted by CharlesS:
Son of a bitch indeed.

This is the kind of thing that wouldn't be a problem if MS were broken up into an OS company and an application company. Too bad the powers that be don't seem to realize this...

I agree. This move strikes me as very smart on MS's part. It's probably as far as they could go now with the courts still looking at them. I suspect they will continue buying strategic companies and seeing just how far they can go.

I also want to point out that there isn't a heck of a lot of improvement that can be made to VPC as long as you are using the PowerPC. You simply aren't going to get reasonable speeds of emulation for a cpu (Pentium) that is faster than the PPC. As MS phases out win9x and moves to XP it will take really powerful PPC systems to run that properly. So I don't see MS stopping Office and shifting that to VPC. It might be however that they will take VPC (Mac) more in the direction of SoftPC which had more windows' stuff built in and was faster. That is it will be less important to emulate a complete PC (for the Mac part).

It's a bit confusing at this point but I don't see this as positive news. Sigh...

philip

gunnar · Feb 20, 2003, 02:57 AM

This is Microsoft. They don't even make software anymore, they're just about profit. In that light the first order of business is to kill VPC emulation on Mac.

If I couldn't use VPC I would HAVE to buy a PC and they'd save the development costs of selling me the normal Windows version over the emulator. It's a moot point to say that they'll sell a copy with VPC so they'll develop it. They'll sell a copy if they don't develop it too. Which is the smart business decision? There is ZERO incentive to develop VPC for Mac.

Even if Microsoft is too dumb to proactively kill it, the programming talent of their Windows division surely will once they get their hands on it. It will die by purpose or by chance.

That alone is going to cause many professionals in web design, multimedia etc. to buy PCs because they have to check compatibility regardless of if they have a Mac. That chips away at the Mac market share which is already critically low.

After that, it would take a bumbling idiot not to kill Office for Mac too. Even with an antitrust suit no competitor would be able to make a new platform with 0% market share, even with perfect Windows interoperability. Microsoft split in 3 would still have no viable competition.

And Linux? The dark horse that can't even decide between KDE and Gnome and has 50+ different distributions. Even if there was a hypothetical Office for Linux as a result from an antitrust suit it would be improbably that Microsoft would develop a version that worked reliably for all Linux users. They can't even make one that works for Windows users.

As I've said elsewhere, I think the only chance Apple has of being a strong second player is to have a huge growth in market share THIS YEAR. Only by bringing enough people aboard and getting them to commit to the OS will Microsoft be kept in check. 10% would be enough that it would be a market Microsoft couldn't ignore either for Office sales, or threat of switchers. Anything less than 5% as we see now and one wrong move by Microsoft on VPC and it's over. No online banking, neat peripherals, VPN, web browser checking, etc. for those people who have to use a Windows app.

Scarpa · Feb 20, 2003, 04:01 AM

I don't think VPC is going anywhere. Microsoft certainly did not buy Connectix for their OSX VirtualPC product. The much, much, much bigger acquisition was the VirtualServer product. This will allow Microsoft to go toe to toe with IBM's current strategy of virtualization- "capacity on demand." Microsoft knows that they are weakest in the high end server market, and also that said market can be very lucrative.

VirtualPC for OSX compared to that is insignificant. Considering you already have to pay for a Windows license when you buy VirtualPC, there's no reason for MS to kill the product: it practically guarantees every "Switcher" will be on the hook for *another* Windows license. Apple sells a Mac, MS sells a copy of Windows.

As far as MS improving on VPC for OSX, that's unlikely also. They are interested in virtualization, not emulation.

Personally I think this will have a minimal effect on Apple users. MS will continue to develop Office, VPC will probably stay pretty much the same, and MS will leverage their newly acquired technology in a completely different market.

my $.02

walrusjb · Feb 20, 2003, 08:03 AM

Relax folks... $129 base entry-level price for new users (with a depricated OS no less), and a cool $100 for a simply version upgrade, it makes no sense to kill development, regardless of the skewed business logic being thrown around here.

A secondary asset in a takeover/purchase with an est. 1mil + user base (per cNet). A compelling reason to upgrade to ver 7 at $100 a pop makes for high-overhead revenue in a soft economy... on a secondary asset. Even MS can't shrug that off in this economy.

clebin · Feb 20, 2003, 08:18 AM

The idea that Microsoft will make a Java-like virtual machine or build it into Office seems ridiculous to me. We're talking about a full blown x86 emulator running a full copy of Windows.

I do wonder if Linux et al will be well catered for in version 7 though

And I do wonder if after version 7, those 'increased resources' will dry up and it'll go into an IE:mac-like state of maintenance.

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now, but I'm never keen on this consolidation of more technology and more power to the corporate giants...

Chris

clebin · Feb 20, 2003, 08:24 AM

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/29402.html

Oh, there's goes VirtualPC for Linux....

My benefit of the doubt lasteed all of....ooh, 3 minutes. Nice one Microsoft, that's a new record.

Chris

RealMadrid · Feb 20, 2003, 09:41 AM

Originally posted by Homer1946:
I don't think MS will kill VPC. If you think about it, MS is all about selling copies of windows, and then selling Windows software to run on it. In reality, VPC is just selling a PC. It's software than emulates PC hardware, it requires a Windows license to run Windows, and requires (as much as any PC) purchasing windows software to run on it. In reality all they are doing is selling PC's to Mac people. Why would they not want to do this?

Also, we all know that, for now, MS has an interest in keeping the Mac alive as their "official" competition. They fear Linux, not the Mac OS.

-R

Yes I fully agree with that. VPC gives MS another piece of the market to sell Windows.

On the other hand if it is true, as read somwhere else, that VPC has 1 milion users and MS drops it development, there will surely be another developer that tries to make another VPC. One milion clients is not bad isn't it?

dwishbone · Feb 20, 2003, 01:40 PM

sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux sux

did i mention this sux???

Toyin · Feb 20, 2003, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by clebin:
The idea that Microsoft will make a Java-like virtual machine or build it into Office seems ridiculous to me. We're talking about a full blown x86 emulator running a full copy of Windows.

I don't know anything about Operating system programming, but the whole benefit of MS doint VPC is that it won't need to emulate the entire processor. I would assume since they know what's under the hood of NT kernel they could make VPC much faster. If they could do it efficiently then developers will only need to develop one app to run on x86 and PPC. This solidifies MS monopoly even more while allowing room for 'alternative' OS to use their products. It also puts them in a position to utilize the PPC chip in the future.

Liudger · Feb 20, 2003, 04:27 PM

I know why M$ bought VPC. When Apple release Makler Micro$oft needs to survive.
They use VPC to run MS apps on top of OSX 10.3 on intel boxes. They can get better speed when they use VPC on Mac OS than when they would run it just on intel hardware

My thoughts

mackid97140 · Feb 21, 2003, 12:49 AM

One thing i liked about RealPC, as much as it sucked, is that you could run teh apps without having to deal with the stupid Windows environment. If MS could somehow make VPS able to run the apps without the environment, similar to Classic, that would greatly attract new users. Unfortunately that would draw people away from their OS so it's not likely to happen.

-mackid

Superchicken · Feb 21, 2003, 04:06 AM

Originally posted by Diggory Laycock:
Bungie - (Halo) - Gone to MS
Rare - (Perfect Dark, GoldenEye) - Gone to MS
Connectix (VPC) - Gone to MS

Some times it seems like MS only exists to make my life hell.

That's the most halarious thing I've read in a long time

Uhh oh right VPC bought... uhh...

Anyone else thing M$ is likely to kinda port the OS so that not every part of it needs to be run through emulation. I mean one of the major complaints about VPC is speed... with M$'s knowlege of what the programs need couldn't they just recompile different parts for a PPC processor and then make something like apple's X11 enviroment where it'd look aqua but but M$'s windows requirements under the hood?
Honestly for VPC users this is probably gona be pretty benifitial...

You know... I would hate to be a member of the MacBU who has low self esteem... talk about working in a thankless job

I mean sure they're working for the Satan of the Software world... but they're still people... or so we've been lead to believe.

Fallout · Feb 21, 2003, 10:25 PM

It can't get any worse than it is now.

Bobby · Feb 22, 2003, 03:13 AM

There are couple things to consider here, which may mean it's not *so* bad.

First off, Microsoft actually has reason to continue support, as it allows them to sell more of their software to people who don't even own a PC. They are not a hardware company, the product actually allows them to sell more product...

Also since they do construct the OS, they actually *may* be able to optimize it to be even faster, since they have the ability to access their own source code...

gunnar · Feb 22, 2003, 03:52 AM

Why would Microsoft give you MORE reason to transparently run Windows apps on your Mac? It's been said elsewhere that VirtualPC users don't buy nearly as much software as a real PC user. Microsoft would obviously prefer you to buy a real PC where they get your Windows license AND any secondary Windows app revenue you're going to invest in. Remember, they don't have to spend a cent if they can get you to switch. They've already developed everything.

Even on the outside chance that VPC would get better, it would surely mean that Office would only run in that new environment. Why would Microsoft spend money to develop two versions, when they already have a 100% Windows one done. What Mac user wants to run the PC version of Office on his Mac through emulation?

In either situation, the average Mac user would at least consider switching to a PC outright. It would be faster, more compatible and you wouldn't have to endure two totally different interfaces on one machine.

Granted, for power users who really do need parts of the Mac environment for work (i.e. design) they will benefit from the tighter integration because they already put up with it with the old VPC. But, what kind of a platform do we have if only a few power users remain and the majority of "normal" people are enticed to switch because EVERYBODY has to run Office at some point.

Superchicken · Feb 23, 2003, 04:03 AM

VPC has a 1000 000+ base... apple has a MUCH bigger one. While loosing VPC would not be good... it certainly won't kill Apple