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Sherwin · May 11, 2004, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by qnxde:
They've done it. Download the developer source tree and compile it on OS X. It works with some tweaking. (you have to manually load a kernel extension, which has to be patched for Panther beforehand etc)

Hmmm... Actually, what I meant was something which works like a Mac app should - i.e. it works straight out of the box without having to have your own pet geek cluttering up the place.

ms510 · May 11, 2004, 12:19 PM

OSX License

2. Permitted License Uses and Restrictions.
A. This License allows you to install and use one copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled computer computer at a time.

MacGorilla · May 11, 2004, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by qnxde:
They've done it. Download the developer source tree and compile it on OS X. It works with some tweaking. (you have to manually load a kernel extension, which has to be patched for Panther beforehand etc)

Really? I'll wait for the next released. Compiling and kernel patches ain't me.

Stratus Fear · May 11, 2004, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by qnxde:
They've done it. Download the developer source tree and compile it on OS X. It works with some tweaking. (you have to manually load a kernel extension, which has to be patched for Panther beforehand etc)

!!! Nice, I'll have to go snag that. It's been a while since I've kept up with MOL, I didn't know they actually got it running on OSX...

Hanul · May 12, 2004, 05:39 AM

PearPC is great, especially for version 0.1. I consider networking for the Windows version the next big step. Anyway, here is a screenshot of my successful Panther installation.

Will McGoonigle · May 12, 2004, 05:57 AM

Hanul, whats the speed like on your installation? What CPU are you running it on?

Hanul · May 12, 2004, 06:12 AM

My Windows system is an HP Compay Evo 610c notebook. Pentium 4 M 2GHz and 512MB RAM. The installation of MacOS X took 12 hours (including 3 hours for the required Darwin install before installing Panther). I only installed the base system without any additional apps, fonts, BSD sub-system etc.

I don't know what speed equivalent the emulated "G3" processor has, the "About this Mac" window shows "0 MHz". The 128MB RAM seem to be hardcoded at the time.

Bootup of MacOS X in PearPC takes around 2 minutes. After this the desktop behaves very unresponisve for around 10-15 minutes. Every click initiates a near-complete redraw of the desktop, which takes several seconds. After this the desktop is quite usable. It feels very sluggish, but it is usable. QuickTime needs 20 seconds to start. I would compare it to a 50-100MHz G3, if there was such a thing ;-).

At this state PearPC can give someone with only an x86-based PC an "idea" what MacOS X might be, but to convince her/him, it needs a considerable speed improvement.

Will McGoonigle · May 12, 2004, 06:38 AM

Thats damn slow!

starman · May 12, 2004, 08:16 AM

How soon before Apple shuts them down?

Mike

Hanul · May 12, 2004, 09:14 AM

For what should Apple be able to shut them down? It is a PowerPC emulator, which is, among others, able to boot MacOS X. As long as the emulator does not infringe any patents and copyrights, it is ok. Since it is based on MOL and other emulators, which are on the scene for some time without Apple's intervention, I think all they could do, were to let them remove the MacOS-X-Install guide.

zen jihad · May 12, 2004, 09:49 AM

Originally posted by starman:
How soon before Apple shuts them down?

Mike

I sincerely hope they wouldn't, but like Hanul said, they probably can't.
I can't see why anyone would want to get it in the way of this project. Imagine if we could have OS X running alongside Windows, on the same machine. That alone would be of interest toi many.

Hopefully development will pick up, maybe see it gain some speed boost in he future.

Michel_80 · May 12, 2004, 09:56 AM

Hmm I can see this (maybe) reaching VPC standards. The difference is that the speed is on the side of PC's so maybe they might be able to run at good speed.

Stratus Fear · May 12, 2004, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by Hanul:
(including 3 hours for the required Darwin install before installing Panther)

Not required. All you need of Darwin is pdisk to partition the disk image, because the way Disk Utility partitions it makes the emulator think the image isn't bootable.

Link · May 12, 2004, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by Stratus Fear:
Somebody would probably find a way to crack it and essentially make it not-a-demo...

That was my point in 'being exploitable' heheh

Hanul · May 12, 2004, 05:43 PM

Hey, PearPC even plays QuickTime (in slow motion and without sound...). JIT seems to be pretty stable

The 10.3.2 Update Image won't mount, though.

Link · May 12, 2004, 09:13 PM

Perhaps it's time I call Hillbilly tech and order myself a 4ghz p4...

If I'm lucky, I MIGHT BE ABLE TO GET 200mhz out of it O_O

qnxde · May 13, 2004, 12:47 AM

Originally posted by Will McGoonigle:
Hanul, whats the speed like on your installation? What CPU are you running it on?

I think the load averages in his screenshot tell it all...

ApeInTheShell · May 13, 2004, 07:55 PM

Zing!
http://developer.apple.com/mkt/swl/index.html

I'm sure as time goes by and Pear PC develops than Apple will come banging on their door.

As someone had said a while ago, skinning Windows XP to look like Mac OS X doesn't make it Mac OS X, but if you take the entire operating system, well that's just stealing.

Michel_80 · May 13, 2004, 08:22 PM

Nobody is taking operating systems. PearPc emulates G3.

ApeInTheShell · May 13, 2004, 09:19 PM

I know it emulates the Power PC G3

My point is that pc users aren't downloading this for the ability to run Mandrake Linux, Darwin, or BSD!

They want their copy of Mac OS X and hope over time that the speed will increase so they can finally use Mac OS X on their 3GHZ-4GHZ pcs instead of buying an "oh so expensive" mac

I agree with others that this will drive sales up for Panther but it might send sales crashing down if it becomes freely available to everyone.

sounds interesting, but a collector's item for now

kmkkid · May 13, 2004, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by ApeInTheShell:
I know it emulates the Power PC G3

My point is that pc users aren't downloading this for the ability to run Mandrake Linux, Darwin, or BSD!

They want their copy of Mac OS X and hope over time that the speed will increase so they can finally use Mac OS X on their 3GHZ-4GHZ pcs instead of buying an "oh so expensive" mac

I agree with others that this will drive sales up for Panther but it might send sales crashing down if it becomes freely available to everyone.

sounds interesting, but a collector's item for now

Are you people daft? It's a PPC emulator. Apple cannot do a thing about it. Apple doesnt own the patent/copyright to the PPC architecture, only an OS that runs on it. All pearpc has to do is add a disclaimer saying it's the users responsibility if they install an Apple OS which is against Apples user agreement.

This is the same reason PS2/NES/N64 emulators arnt illegal. You can emulate the hardware, you just cant distribute the software with it.

Chris

starman · May 13, 2004, 11:10 PM

Why are people forgetting the ROMs inside the box?

Remember, you also can't distribute, or alter, or get around the ROMs in those units. Sure, you can emulate a PS2, but if you have to distribute the ROMs to do so, you'll be shut down faster than a brothel at the Vatican.

Mike

Evinyatar · May 20, 2004, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by qnxde:
They've done it. Download the developer source tree and compile it on OS X. It works with some tweaking. (you have to manually load a kernel extension, which has to be patched for Panther beforehand etc)

Do you happen to know where I can find more information about that patch? I can't find anything about it on Google or the MOL mailing list archive

olePigeon · May 20, 2004, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by starman:
you'll be shut down faster than a brothel at the Vatican.

It won't be shut down, just relocated.

Link · May 20, 2004, 07:44 PM

Won't OS X run on any PPC with openfirmware and a certain language compliance?? This seems to be the case :| The 'part that makes OSX work' was apparently ripped out of MOL, which apple hasn't been able to do anything about.

HOWEVER, PearPC is in the grey zone since they are promoting the idea of buying a piece of software and then breaking the terms of the license which the user agrees to when they open the box

You're not 'allowed' to install it on any non-apple machine. It's like that DVD COPY-X thing that the company eventually got busted for promoting illegal copies of DVDs.

OH-N'omac · May 20, 2004, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by ms510:
OSX License

2. Permitted License Uses and Restrictions.
A. This License allows you to install and use one copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled computer computer at a time.

Apple labeled? <<Peels sticker from $0.67 apple bought at grocery store>> So I can install OSX on my PC if I put this on it first, right?

Link · May 20, 2004, 09:05 PM

"Apple-labeled"?? Doesn't that mean you could stick an apple sticker on the front and just be done with it? Oh the joys of loopholes

kmkkid · May 20, 2004, 09:50 PM

I finally got a chance to try PearPC out. It actually runs better than I thought it would. It's like XP on a 250 Mhz machine I would say. and thats with my 2.53 Ghz P4.

Still it's fun to be a part of history, and hopefully they will get it to run at acceptable speeds in the future, but probably not before I buy a Mac

Chris

starman · May 20, 2004, 11:21 PM

Originally posted by kmkkid:
I finally got a chance to try PearPC out. It actually runs better than I thought it would. It's like XP on a 250 Mhz machine I would say. and thats with my 2.53 Ghz P4.

Still it's fun to be a part of history, and hopefully they will get it to run at acceptable speeds in the future, but probably not before I buy a Mac

Chris

I have the same speed P4 as you do. It's acceptable, but useless at this point except for bragging rights.

Mike

Simon · 05:13 AM

Originally posted by Link:
HOWEVER, PearPC is in the grey zone since they are promoting the idea of buying a piece of software and then breaking the terms of the license which the user agrees to when they open the box You're not 'allowed' to install it on any non-apple machine.

No, they are not really in a gray zone. They don't explicitly have to promote OS X, there are many other PPC OS' out there.

If they sell PearPC as an bare emulator (like VPC) there is no problem at all. They would however not be allowed by Apple (but just by Apple, not by any law) to bundle it with Mac OS X. They could do it, but Apple would never sell it to them. The bundling is not the problem, it's the use.

You have to realize that the EULA is between Apple and the installing user. It is jot between Apple and some in-between distributor. The latter can do what he wants (as long as Apple sells them the software), the former can't.

The user however, once he installs Mac OS X on a PC running PearPC would be breaking his EULA (in the USA) with Apple because they explicitly do not allow you to run Mac OS X on anything else than a Mac.

There are however countries that have different laws concerning EULA terms that protect customers better than companies (something the US has sustained trouble doing, see DMCA). In Switzerland for example, Apple can write in their EULA what they want but even if I agree with that EULA they can't enforce a term like the one preventing you from installing Mac OS X on a PC. The judges would argue very simply that it was me who bought the software license and so it's me who decides how I use it. In capitalism it's the investor's choice where he invests his money and what for. These EULA statements prevent that and should therefore be illegal IMHO.