[OreoCookie]

Pre Palm

I don't think it matters much who was first. Some of the things (flicking, the rubber band effect) have been `inspired' from the iPhone. But what I think is good is that the Palm Pre looks like a competitor to the iPhone -- which is a good thing™ (competition always drives advancements).

[ctt1wbw]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

That would be why I posted it as a response to Wiskedjak's crack-induced statement.

Yeah I know. What was it, about 8 years or so?

[mattyb]

Poo, I grabbed the Palm CES Pre presentation (300M) from somewhere. If you can put up with the head honcho's squeaky voice (and the bullshite marketing drivel) its well worth a watch.

I'll try and find the link.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Pre Palm

I don't think it matters much who was first. Some of the things (flicking, the rubber band effect) have been `inspired' from the iPhone. But what I think is good is that the Palm Pre looks like a competitor to the iPhone -- which is a good thing™ (competition always drives advancements).

I'm not certain about the rubber band effect, but 'flicking' on the iPhone was certainly 'inspired' from earlier work in multi-touch interfaces.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Um ya not the Newton from 1993. Or perhaps from NeXT OS from 1987 which steve also made.

Actually, there are dock concepts that precede even NeXT.
http://www.osnews.com/story/18941/Co...._VI:_the_Dock

My point is as it always is; there is so much cross-pollination of ideas in this industry that it's impossible to know who's stealing who's ideas. Apple just does the best job of convincing everyone that the ideas *they* stole were *their* ideas.

[OreoCookie]

Sure, it all was. There has been (publicly available) research on multi-touch computing for 10+ years, I mean, that's part of my point. For example, MS' surface computing is, in many respects, more sophisticated than Apple's multi-touch. However, since iPhones are much more abundant than 10k+ surface computers, they are the ones that shape the perception of how touch screen computing should work, they shape the paradigm shift. In this way, Apple is correct that after mouse (computer) and click wheel (iPod), their multi-touch concept will set the standard for the mass market (unless there is another, similarly successful product that takes its place). In any case, I think it's a good thing that the way you use phones 2.0 with touch screen is very similar. What some decry as copying, I think of as de facto standardization.

IMO it's a good thing that helps competition, similar to the way cars nowadays have the same basic configuration (accelerator is the right-most pedal, then brake, then clutch (if the car is a manual)). I was surprised to find out that it took quite a while until the configuration of the pedals was de facto standardized.

[ctt1wbw]

Palm is talking smack already

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

Palm is talking smack already

Makes sense, they want to keep the appearance that their device is better. Proof will be in the pudding, so far we've only seen the device from afar. Only until people start using it, will people be able to determine if its better or not. Given Palms recent track record, I'm not going to hold my breath.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by Maflynn 

Makes sense, they want to keep the appearance that their device is better. Proof will be in the pudding, so far we've only seen the device from afar. Only until people start using it, will people be able to determine if its better or not. Given Palms recent track record, I'm not going to hold my breath.

Here's a quick hands-on video:
http://www.viddler.com/explore/engadget/videos/139/

Contacts do seem to take a while to load. But other than that the phone seems very quick.

[ctt1wbw]

Seems very nice. Two things would prevent me from buying this, if I didn't already have the best phone (iPhone) already. The screen isn't as big as some of the others, like the iPhone. Some of do not have Bionic Man or Terminator vision, right?

And secondly, and most importantly, SPRINT??? I hope like hell that this decision doesn't ruin the Pre for Palm. It surely is a nice phone/pda, but it has about two years to go for people to start saying that it is great.

[JKT]

Just watched the CES intro video for this and I would say that, if it weren't for the iPhone's own introduction two years ago, this Palm would look absolutely fantastic. As it is, it merely looks good - a step up from what the iPhone is capable of at the moment in many ways for sure and it has a lot of promise if the developers start making software for it.

http://www.palm.com/us/products/phon...m-pre-ces.html

Anyway, it is obvious from that introduction video that it isn't only the phone's soft- and hard- ware that Apple and Jobs have influenced. You could have swapped Jobs in there along with Schiller and you would think you were at an Apple Keynote... in other words, it is quite a smooth, well-oiled presentation and product demo. However, it does have a couple of negatives:

Personally I found it a bit laughable that they spent any time whatsoever talking about the "smoothness of the scrolling" or "wide-view for the web" ... yeah, so what! We have definitely seen all that before and it isn't anything worth mentioning now. Just show it while doing and talking about something else.

Worse yet was Jon Rubinstein's comment about the naffness of virtual keyboards compared to the "real one" on the Pre, just before the guy demoing it (and obviously a heavy user of the phone) was clearly only able to type on it at a fraction of the speed that I reach on my iPhone. The demo made the "real" keyboard look absolutely awful and really slow to use, imo.

[OreoCookie]

I've also watched the CES video, they do have some nice ideas: the deck of cards metaphor to switch between apps is just great! But I couldn't help noticing Rubinstein sounded just a little bit like Steve

[Hawkeye_a]

Just been reading the Engadget review of the Pre and im really liking the device a LOT.

It borrows a lot from the iPhone as far as interface goes (pinch, swipe, etc)... but the look-and-feel seems more 'Mac' than the iPhone. I can't put my finger on it, but the colors, icons, animations, transitions, etc... just remind me of the feel of the 'Trash Can', for example.

I want to write software for the iPhone, but this device is so tempting from a usability standpoint, that it's making my decision even harder. The fact that it's smaller is a big plus for me.

I'll obviously wait to see what the new iPhone is going to be, but this isnt going to be an easy decision.

Thoughts ?

[OreoCookie]

Go and try it out. Monoculture is never a good thing and I believe Palm has (from the movies and demos I've seen) made a worthy adversary. Especially the way they do multitasking is very nice and natural.

The competition should keep both companies on their toes and stop them from getting complacent. I'm looking forward to trying it out …

[Salty]

Hmmm thanks to the Pre I almost garuntee we get multitasking in the next version of the iPhone or the one after.

[jokell82]

If AT&T had the Pre I'd be considering it over the iPhone sure to be released next week. But I won't switch to Sprint.

Still, it's nice to finally have some decent competition for the iPhone.

[starman]

I'm impressed with the Pre so far, but I already have an iPhone. I love it, don't need to do what could be a touch-less-than-a-sidegrade.

And yeah, SPRINT?

I just broke my contract from those bozos. Their billing system blows, their "forgot my password" sends your temp PW to your cell phone, but I don't have a cell phone since I have an EVDO device. Customer service can't help, nor can tech support. Fail. Their OS X EVDO software is broken.

Sorry, no Pre for me.

[Laminar]

Palm Pre iPod spoofing confirmed - Hack a Day

[turtle777]

Yeah, this will suck balls. The iTunes sync feature will break with every update from Apple.

Basically, this means that there will never be a reliable iTunes integration. People are gonne hate this.

-t

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Yeah, this will suck balls. The iTunes sync feature will break with every update from Apple.

Basically, this means that there will never be a reliable iTunes integration. People are gonne hate this.

-t

The worst part is that people will blame Apple, as the problems will show up with iTunes updates. But in reality Palm should have gone about the syncing in a legit way (it is available), and if they get shut out of iTunes it will be their own fault.

[- - e r i k - -]

Since most apps on the phone are just web pages*, wouldn't their "multi-tasking" simply be akin to running several web pages at once?

* Yes, this is the actual Palm Pre Maps app, try it on your iPhone. If you have 3.0 it uses in-browser geolocation to locate you. Pretty cool.

[- - e r i k - -]

The absolute worst part about the Palm Pre is the uncertainty. It breaches several of Apple's UI patents and uses a hack to sync with iTunes. How long will that last? Can you trust this platform to be future-proof?

Apple can easily bring the hammer down on both of those points at any time.

[0157988944]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

But in reality Palm should have gone about the syncing in a legit way (it is available)

No it isn't. Apple hasn't provided for third party device sync in years.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by adamfishercox 

No it isn't. Apple hasn't provided for third party device sync in years.

They have however an approved way of accessing the iTunes library: The iTunes Library.xml

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

They have however an approved way of accessing the iTunes library: The iTunes Library.xml

Bingo.

[SSharon]

I don't care about the hardware competition so much anymore. I would rather have the phone companies compete on price instead of charging crazy prices for things like text messaging. ATT makes so much more profit over the life of an iphone customer than Apple does and Apple put the millions in R&D for the iphone while ATT didn't even know what was going on.

[Hawkeye_a]

From a hardware design perspective, i definitely prefer the Pre over the iPhone..... what do you guys think ?



It's smaller and more curvey than the iPhone. Irrespective of the provider, i think it's a good device.

What do u guys think ?

[Laminar]

I hate the keyboard. I can type 20x faster and more accurately on my iPod Touch than my Blackberry curve, and it's not due to any lack of practice on either.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

From a hardware design perspective, i definitely prefer the Pre over the iPhone..... what do you guys think ?

Sure, if you prefer flimsy sharp plastic with sticky rubbery tiny keys.

Whatever floats your boat I guess…

[Hawkeye_a]

Erik, have you gotten your hands on one ? i havent yet... my opinion is solely on the aesthetics.

Here's Mossberg's review of the Palm Pre on Fox.

He touches on the shortcomings.... primarily the App store.

Cheers

[OreoCookie]

I find the iPhone/iPod Touch sexier. This device is too `round' and I don't like keyboards.

[angelmb]

Forbes' (where the money is) take on the Pre,

How Palm Designed The Pre

and

Five Things You Didn't Know About The Palm Pre.

1. EGGS, PEBBLES AND GECKOS PLAYED A KEY ROLE
2. WEBOS APPS SHOULD BE USEFUL
3. PALM ADOPTED APPLE'S HIGH STANDARDS
4. SPRINT IS PALM'S OLDEST FRIEND
5. LOTS OF WEBOS DEVICES IN THE WORKS

I find the iPhone/iPod Touch sexier. This device is too `round' and I don't like keyboards.

Eggs and polished rocks were an inspiration as you can read; and for the keyboard, that 'belongs' to another generation of smart-phones, that's for sure. So it is gonna be true, one year later…

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

From a hardware design perspective, i definitely prefer the Pre over the iPhone..... what do you guys think ?

It's smaller and more curvey than the iPhone. Irrespective of the provider, i think it's a good device.

What do u guys think ?

The few reviews I've read have noted the hardware being the weakest link of the Pre.

[ctt1wbw]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I find the iPhone/iPod Touch sexier. This device is too `round' and I don't like keyboards.

Yeah, how many people bitched about the iPhone's keyboard, that it wouldn't go landscape? Now the Pre has a physical keyboard that won't do it and people love it.

[OreoCookie]

I admit, it's a personal thing: I've tried various Blackberries (supposedly the best in the business) and found them much, much worse than the iPhone's virtual keyboard.

[ctt1wbw]

I've never been able to do the IM thing until I got an iPhone. I'm enjoying it now because I don't have to hit a key three times to get to the C character, know what I mean?

[angelmb]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I admit, it's a personal thing: I've tried various Blackberries (supposedly the best in the business) and found them much, much worse than the iPhone's virtual keyboard.

And even if you happen to like it, you'll have to wonder which one would fit you better: Pearl's predictive SureType (which assigns multiple letters to each key) or just the full QWERTY keyboard from any other BlackBerry model and then hear you're wrong from those who think differently.

[OreoCookie]

Agreed.
That's another reason why I think Palm's Pre has a place in the market: it just offers you the choice. If you prefer a virtual keyboard, you can buy an iPhone or RIM's iPhone equivalent (Curve, I think?). If you want a real one, then you have a device that's pretty much as good as the iPhone in most respects.

A friend of mine has RIM's iPhone clone and I wasn't impressed. I couldn't figure out how to dial a number right away :hmmm:

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I admit, it's a personal thing: I've tried various Blackberries (supposedly the best in the business) and found them much, much worse than the iPhone's virtual keyboard.

BB has some phones that don't include a full qwerty keyboard, these are awful, there's no way you can type very fast when you need to hit the W two or three times.

I've had a BB 8700 model, which is the traditional blacberry look that people are used too. This keyboard is superior to the iphone, because I could type with my two thumbs. I cannot do that with the iPhone. I've increased my typing speed on the iPhone but its only using one finger.

Don't get me wrong, the iPhone keyboard is awesome, but I found a physical keyboard if done right to be a better option then the a virtual keyboard.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Agreed.
That's another reason why I think Palm's Pre has a place in the market: it just offers you the choice. If you prefer a virtual keyboard, you can buy an iPhone or RIM's iPhone equivalent (Curve, I think?).

The Storm.

However, my impression is that critics are in complete unison on RIM having botched the Storm's touch-screen/clicker combination, making fast typing all but impossible.

[residentEvil]

a) i will never do a slider phone again. went through several from different vendors; eventually the slide would, well, slide all on it's own..turning the phone display on/off as it did. battery life shot to hell.

b) my bb curve (QWERTY by the way) the best i've ever used for a non touchscreen phone and prefer it over an iPhone*

*for my use (since i don't do/need/want music, video, games, etc), YMMV.

[Maflynn]

From what I've read on the PRE, people who had the opportunity to play with it, love the interface, the web browser is much quicker then the iPhone even though it was based on the same engine. The webos seems to be a nice OS but I've read conflicting reports that it can easily bog down with either a lot going on or opening up large documents/programs.

The display is rich and vibrant, the outer case is plastic and less smudge prone then the iPhone but it feels cheap because of the plastic. The physical keyboard and its mechanism could be a winner or the achilles heal. So far I've read the build quality of the early units appear to have some concerns. Also how the slider holds up with day to day usage is a concern.

The battery, based on early reports doesn't last too long as compared to the iPhone,though I've not read hard numbers or reviews.

The cost, a 100 bucks more then the iPhone - not the best way to gain market share. Sure there's a rebate but you need to mail that in and so when you walk out of a sprint store, you've just spent more money on the phone. Also given most companies track record with rebates you'll not see your 100 bucks for at least 6 months and maybe never.

Sprint continues to shoot themselves in the foot, while lots of energy/excitement was building up for the PRE, they let it slip that their exclusive is only for 6 months, after that Verizon will have it. To that end, both Palm and sprint are starting to tell people don't expect lines like what happened with the iPhone and of course they're spinning this is a good thing, less customers are better????

All in all, I think based on early reports that Palm designed this pretty well and has a winner, but build quality, battery life, cost and carrier may mitigate to success of the phone to some degree.

I'm not tempted to give up my iPhone but being an old time palm user its nice to see them finally innovating, this thing has been promised in various forms since the Palm Tungsten came out (which by the way was my favorite PDA).

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by Maflynn 

From what I've read on the PRE, people who had the opportunity to play with it, love the interface, the web browser is much quicker then the iPhone even though it was based on the same engine. The webos seems to be a nice OS but I've read conflicting reports that it can easily bog down with either a lot going on or opening up large documents/programs.

From the only real comparison I have seen (other than "it feels faster") the Pre was only *barely* faster than the iPhone 3G, and I would assume the new iPhone will take the lead back again.

Originally Posted by Maflynn 

The cost, a 100 bucks more then the iPhone - not the best way to gain market share. Sure there's a rebate but you need to mail that in and so when you walk out of a sprint store, you've just spent more money on the phone. Also given most companies track record with rebates you'll not see your 100 bucks for at least 6 months and maybe never.

Unless you buy at Best Buy or possibly a Sprint Store, as Best Buy has said they would make the rebate an instant one and it's rumored that Sprint will cave to the pressure and make their own stores do an instant as well: Sprint Might Be Doing Away With The Mail-In Rebate for Palm Pre | Palm Goon

[Maflynn]

I had not heard that (both BestBuy or Sprint). It will be a smart move on their parts if they do but sprint has not been known to have good business smarts.

[starman]

Confirmed: Palm Pre's iTunes support is very, very hacky

[Laminar]

My fiancee's mom has a Storm - worst cameraphone I've ever used. There is literally a two to three second delay between hitting the button and taking the picture. It makes for some interesting poses, and the pictures often come out blurry because everyone thought you were done taking the picture three seconds ago and have gone on to do other things.

[ctt1wbw]

These smart phones are not meant to be cameras. I think a camera function is an add on just to be a gimmick. I fail to see why people complain about the cameras in there phones. But yes, that long of a delay is pretty bad.

[harbinger75]

In the days before the iPhone (what, there were days WITHOUT iPhones?!), I was a huge fan of Palm handhelds. I'd still like to see them succeed and get their asses out of the funk they've been in for over a decade, but choosing Sprint was a move I'm not certain about.

I hate Sprint with a passion, and I'm afraid that may be the glaring Achilles' heel. If they would have chosen one of the big three, they might have had better luck, but I just don't think they can pull it off with a carrier that was this close |----| to going under.

[mdc]

Gizmodo - Palm Pre Review - Palm pre
Copying and pasting only works in text fields where you can write, not when reading emails or SMS or web pages.

We've lived for two years without copy and paste on the iPhone, but if you're going to put it into your phone at least put it in so that you can copy and paste everywhere.
I've learnt to live without copy and paste on the iPhone but when I do want to use it, it's always to take something from an email to a browser or sms, or vice versa.

Gizmodo - Palm Pre Review - Palm pre
... Pre not supporting syncing to OS X Address Book.

The OS X Address Book issue is really big for me since I do not sync my Address Book with Gmail or Facebook. My iPhone syncs my Address Book with my iMac and MacBook.

Other than those two things I think Palm has done a very good job with the Pre. I watched this 10 minutes review yesterday and the OS looks very slick.

In regards to the keyboard, I've grown so used to the iPhone one that I'm typing quickly with two thumbs and prefer the smaller vertical one and not the horizontal landscape one. One thing which I love about the keyboard is that it can change to suit whatever you're using it for.
I had to use a friend's BlackBerry recently and I was useless trying to figure out which button would give me the alternate symbol on each key. Yes you get used to it -- just like people have gotten used to typing on the iPhone -- but in my opinion, the advantages that the iPhones "dynamic" keyboard gives is far greater than physical buttons.

[hatehereyes]

This phone looks promising but if the rumors are true that the iphone, pre, and storm 2 are going to be coming out for verizon within a few months then that's going to be a very hard decision.

I'm leaning towards the pre for right now since all the hype about it and the reviews from engadget and gizmodo.