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The Final Dakar
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Dec 18, 2014, 10:12 AM
 
Let's hear it.

Bonus points to the Pope somehow being in on this breakthrough.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Dec 18, 2014, 11:39 AM
 
As a Cuban American I think it's past time this happened, it's hard to let go of what Castro's regime did to my family, I had several relatives who were murdered by his goons because they wouldn't embrace the communist party, but I have to let that go. Reconciliation is necessary going forward. However, lets wait and see the EOs Obama writes to try and make this happen.
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Dec 18, 2014, 11:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
As a Cuban American I think it's past time this happened, it's hard to let go of what Castro's regime did to my family, I had several relatives who were murdered by his goons because they wouldn't embrace the communist party, but I have to let that go. Reconciliation is necessary going forward. However, lets wait and see the EOs Obama writes to try and make this happen.
To me, this is the most sensible view.

I was also thinking, it's probably better we already have relations in place for when whoever replaces the Castros comes into power.
     
reader50
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Dec 18, 2014, 12:50 PM
 
Most of the cuban population today were not adults when Castro took over. You can only punish the children so far for the sins of the parents.
     
BadKosh
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Dec 18, 2014, 12:53 PM
 
So, no more human rights issues?
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Dec 18, 2014, 01:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Most of the cuban population today were not adults when Castro took over. You can only punish the children so far for the sins of the parents.
The leadership is still the same, however. That's what makes it so tough.
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Dec 18, 2014, 01:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
The leadership is still the same, however. That's what makes it so tough.
It is some truly amazing longevity. Dictator hallmark, I suppose.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Dec 18, 2014, 02:03 PM
 
Washington's Denounciation of Cuba has expired
Washington and Cuba have accepted embassies

/civjoke
     
subego
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Dec 18, 2014, 02:44 PM
 
They're willing to trade us the secrets of Pottery.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Dec 18, 2014, 02:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
They're willing to trade us the secrets of Pottery.
can't do that in Civ 5 /sadtrombone
     
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Dec 18, 2014, 03:49 PM
 
Long overdue. The Castro regime is far from democratic. But the Batista regime prior to that was in many respects even worse. The main difference is that the quality of life has improved considerably for the majority of Cubans under the Castro regime. As well as the fact that heretofore the US government supported the Batista regime and actively opposed the Castro regime. Both for reasons that had absolutely nothing to do with "freedom" or "democracy". Regardless of one's stands on the politics/ideology of it all ... as a practical matter the previous policy was clearly "ineffective". At best.

OAW

PS: It should be noted that President Obama can only take this rapprochement so far. The economic embargo can't be fully lifted as long as the 1996 Helms Burton Act is still law. It enshrined a lot of requirements (e.g. wholesale regime change and the implementation of US style democracy) before the embargo could be lifted. Naturally that will never happen as long as the Castros are in power in Cuba and the GOP is control of the US Congress.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Dec 18, 2014, 04:25 PM
 
Paul: Trade with Cuba 'probably a good idea'
"The 50-year embargo just hasn't worked," Paul said. "If the goal is regime change, it sure doesn't seem to be working, and probably, it punishes the people more than the regime because the regime can blame the embargo for hardship.

"In the end, I think opening up Cuba is probably a good idea," he said.


Edit: RINO chips in
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cuba-us-...matic-changes/
"This is still a terrible regime. We don't support their form of government. We don't like what they're doing," former Secretary of State Colin Powell said Thursday on "CBS This Morning." "But I think having diplomatic relations, as we have had with the Soviet Union, with Vietnam and so many other places, we can produce positive change."

...

"Over the last 50 years I have watched this policy unfold, and I have been a part of it," he said. "And as secretary of state ... I supported it and even strengthened the sanctions against Cuba. But I think it's time now to turn that page of history."
Emphasis mine.
( Last edited by The Final Dakar; Dec 18, 2014 at 04:42 PM. )
     
Snow-i
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Dec 18, 2014, 04:59 PM
 
I am firmly against relations with Cuba since smoking a cuban will lose some of its BAMF appeal.

All kidding aside, it's too early for me to tell how I feel about this one. On the one hand it is about damn time, on the other hand it is still an oppressive tyranny. I guess I'll end up going how the cuban-americans go.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Dec 18, 2014, 05:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
On the one hand it is about damn time, on the other hand it is still an oppressive tyranny.
Lack or diplomatic relations out of principle is stupid.

Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
I guess I'll end up going how the cuban-americans go.
If you carve that up by age, you're probably in the same bind: Some will favor, some will oppose.
     
subego
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Dec 18, 2014, 05:54 PM
 
I forgot this means we may get cigars!
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Dec 18, 2014, 06:13 PM
 
At least $100 worth /trip, and over there $100 buys a lot of great cigars.
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Snow-i
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Dec 18, 2014, 08:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Lack or diplomatic relations out of principle is stupid.
Its more the message sent to the rest of the world.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Dec 19, 2014, 10:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Its more the message sent to the rest of the world.
That still sounds like principle. What's the message?
     
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Dec 19, 2014, 11:35 AM
 
Two things:

1. Normalized diplomatic relations are not the same thing as ending the embargo. That's up to Congress.

2. Lack of normalized relations is a dumb policy that has changed because the domestic politics are no longer relevant. The normal state of affairs is for countries to have diplomatic relations, even if one of them is under economic sanction. There is absolutely no good reason that Cuba should be singled out for "non-normal relations." We have diplomatic relations with China and Vietnam. We had diplomatic relations with the Soviet Union. We have diplomatic relations with Russia even though we're now doing our best to shut down their economy. We would have diplomatic relations with North Korea if we didn't technically still consider them as party to a civil war with South Korea. And so on.

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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Dec 19, 2014, 11:43 AM
 
SpaceMonkey?! It's a xmas miracle!
     
Chongo
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Dec 19, 2014, 11:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
So, no more human rights issues?
My sister-in-law still has family in Cuba. My brother went with her to visit them. He surreptitiously shot video in places where he was not allowed. It's real bad where her grandmother lives. Most homes do not have windows. You can tell the areas where Party members lives. They went to a "club" with her cousin and were nearly asphyxiated from the exhaust leaking into the car.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Dec 19, 2014, 03:13 PM
 
Wow

#shotsfired

Of course, I can only assume he's making a big deal out of this for some type of political gain in 2016.
     
BadKosh
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Dec 19, 2014, 03:35 PM
 
Rand does have a streak of wack-job from his dad.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Dec 19, 2014, 03:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Rand does have a streak of wack-job from his dad.
Yeah? What's the crazy part of what he said?
     
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Dec 19, 2014, 05:18 PM
 
Great, I can finally get that banana daiquiri I always wanted to try.
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Snow-i
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Dec 19, 2014, 06:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
That still sounds like principle. What's the message?
That after all we will negotiate with tyrannical dictators with no regard for even basic civil rights, if the dictator can hold out long enough. Not in the context of Cuba, but with our struggles in the middle east and with an aggressive russia and China. I fear it further emboldens the Assad's and the Kim Jung's of the world, and incentivizes other would-be dictators to follow the Cuba model, and also incentives Putin to further support such dictatorships.

I don't know, still weighing it.
     
subego
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Dec 19, 2014, 08:00 PM
 
I was listening to Krauthammer on the radio earlier, and his attitude was "we should have forced them to make some form of genuine concession in exchange".

Hard for me to disagree.
     
reader50
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Dec 19, 2014, 08:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
That after all we will negotiate with tyrannical dictators with no regard for even basic civil rights, if the dictator can hold out long enough.
More like we'll restore relations in 50 years. In most cases, not in the dictator's lifetime. We really did hold off for a long time here. And it didn't work.
     
subego
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Dec 19, 2014, 08:43 PM
 
I felt the K-hammer had a decent point on this, too.

Cuba's crime was getting in bed with the Soviets.

There are no more Soviets. Cuba can't do anything to us anymore. It's a strategically worthless country.
     
Chongo
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Dec 19, 2014, 10:12 PM
 
Saint JPII got Castro to give the Cubans Christmas off when he was there. BXVI got Raul to let the celebrate Easter. It was recently announce the first new Catholic Church in almost sixty years will begin construction soon. It could be that St. JP II started the ball rolling like he did after he went back to visit Poland.
( Last edited by Chongo; Dec 19, 2014 at 11:29 PM. )
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Dec 22, 2014, 01:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
That after all we will negotiate with tyrannical dictators with no regard for even basic civil rights, if the dictator can hold out long enough.
*If the dictator isn't US Friendly. And really it's about the person? Because China's regard for human rights is pretty low too, but we have diplomatic relations with them.

Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
I fear it further emboldens the Assad's and the Kim Jung's of the world, and incentivizes other would-be dictators to follow the Cuba model
What is the Cuba model? Don't die?

Assad and Kim Jung don't give a shit. We already showed in 2003 that having nuclear weapons gets you negotiation while not having them gets you invaded. North Korea won in that regard long ago.
     
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Dec 26, 2014, 09:24 AM
 


Aut Caesar aut nihil.
     
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Dec 29, 2014, 03:37 AM
 
The economic well-being of the Cuban people is not the moral responsibility of America or any country other than Cuba. In principle, we have every right to restrict trade to any country led by thug dictators and it is moral to do so.

If there is any harm done to Cubans the blame falls on their Government, and ultimately the Cuban people for tolerating it. This is why ideas are important.

That being said, yes it's pretty hypocritical of us to trade with other thug-led countries and behave as if it is the end of the world if we trade with Cuba.
( Last edited by smacintush; Dec 29, 2014 at 12:26 PM. )
     
subego
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Dec 29, 2014, 08:25 AM
 
Whoohoo! Good to see you smac!

And exactly the type of post I miss most. Don't agree, but now I have to think about it, and I might change my mind. Good show!
     
Chongo
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Dec 29, 2014, 09:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
The economic well-being of the Cuban people is not the moral responsibility of America or any country other than Cuba. In principle, we have every right to restrict trade to any country led by thug dictators and it is moral to do so.

If there is any harm done to Cubans the blame falls on their Government, and ultimately the Cuban people for tolerating it. This is why ideas are important.

That being said, yes it's pretty hypocritical of us to trade with other thug-led countries and behave as if it is the end of the world of we trade with Cuba.
The problem with the embargo is the US is the only country involved, correct?

I belive the phrase is "he may be a thug, but he's our thug"
     
Snow-i
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Dec 29, 2014, 02:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
*If the dictator isn't US Friendly. And really it's about the person? Because China's regard for human rights is pretty low too, but we have diplomatic relations with them.

What is the Cuba model? Don't die?

Assad and Kim Jung don't give a shit. We already showed in 2003 that having nuclear weapons gets you negotiation while not having them gets you invaded. North Korea won in that regard long ago.
Good points all around.
     
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Dec 29, 2014, 03:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Whoohoo! Good to see you smac!

And exactly the type of post I miss most. Don't agree, but now I have to think about it, and I might change my mind. Good show!
Well, thank you!

     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Dec 30, 2014, 04:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Good points all around.
Here's why you're wron– wait, what?

Thanks.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Dec 30, 2014, 05:15 PM
 
The only people who are really pissed off over this are the Cuban American Anti-Castro hardliners, most of whom lost immediate family to his regime. I understand how they feel but this has gone on for too long.
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Dec 30, 2014, 05:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
The only people who are really pissed off over this are the Cuban American Anti-Castro hardliners, most of whom lost immediate family to his regime. I understand how they feel but this has gone on for too long.
I don't understand how they feel, but I understand the thinking, like World War II vets who wouldn't buy German or Japanese cars.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Dec 30, 2014, 06:16 PM
 
It's more personal than that, more like Castro's people tortured and murdered their parents.
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Dec 31, 2014, 01:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
It's more personal than that, more like Castro's people tortured and murdered their parents.
It's more personal than fighting in a war? We'll have to disagree on that one.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Dec 31, 2014, 02:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
It's more personal than fighting in a war? We'll have to disagree on that one.
Obviously, because I can't see how warring with strangers is worse than your family being butchered.
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subego
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Jan 1, 2015, 02:10 AM
 
It's not exactly analogous, but people start seeing their unit as like family, and then they see them get butchered.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jan 5, 2015, 01:35 PM
 
Some people don't like being forced to kill human beings, either.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jan 5, 2015, 01:50 PM
 
I didn't say they do, or should, I guess I think of my immediate family as the most sacred part of my life to the exclusion of anything else. I am aware that others don't feel that way, that's just me.
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jan 5, 2015, 01:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
It's not exactly analogous, but people start seeing their unit as like family, and then they see them get butchered.
Don't forget that WWII saw many families decimated. Don't be surprised if the surviving vet holds a grudge about country that killed his brothers.
     
OAW
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Jan 12, 2015, 11:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I was listening to Krauthammer on the radio earlier, and his attitude was "we should have forced them to make some form of genuine concession in exchange".

Hard for me to disagree.
Looks like Cuba had to make some concessions after all ....

Cuba has notified the Obama administration of the release of 53 political prisoners, fulfilling a promise to the United States as the two countries work toward normalizing relations for the first time in half a century, a U.S. official told NBC News on Monday.

The release of the prisoners was a potential obstacle to congressional support for easing economic restrictions on Cuba. The administration has said that progress on human rights is important but not a condition for normalized relations.

Some of the prisoners were jailed for promoting political and social reform in Cuba, a U.S. official said. Senior U.S. officials told Reuters that the White House would provide the names of all 53 to Congress and expects lawmakers to make them public.

Last month, President Barack Obama declared that the American policy of isolating Cuba had failed, and he announced plans to open an embassy in Havana and take other steps toward openness. Only Congress can end the economic embargo.
Cuba Frees 53 Prisoners Ahead of Historic Talks, Officials Say - NBC News

OAW
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jan 13, 2015, 10:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I was listening to Krauthammer on the radio earlier, and his attitude was "we should have forced them to make some form of genuine concession in exchange".

Hard for me to disagree.
Cuba has freed all 53 prisoners as agreed in U.S. deal: U.S. officials | Reuters

This is what I don't understand about the administration. Yesterday everyone was like, "What prisoners?" So, when everyone was pointed out they lied down to restore relations the admin didn't think it was good time to mention this part of the deal? So stupid.
     
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Jan 13, 2015, 10:28 AM
 
...and I just repeated OAW.
     
 
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