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What do you make of the recent furor over 'civility'? (Page 2)
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andi*pandi
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Jul 2, 2018, 06:05 PM
 
Well, it sounded like you were willing to fire the waitress for not serving the KKK guy, which as a business decision fits in more with the "gotta do business with everyone cuz everyone has money" and doesn't seem to fit in with your rainbow draped diversity cafe ideals.

I see the point of killing with kindness, of being representative of "the good ones" and bridging barriers. However, there's some people you just can't reach. So you get what happened last week. And many other times, to people of varying parties.

Which is the way they want it, I guess.
     
subego
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Jul 4, 2018, 01:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Well, it sounded like you were willing to fire the waitress for not serving the KKK guy, which as a business decision fits in more with the "gotta do business with everyone cuz everyone has money" and doesn't seem to fit in with your rainbow draped diversity cafe ideals.
The most probable situation is it wouldn’t happen in the first place, because I wouldn’t ambush my employees. They’d know what my deal was.

If for some reason there was a problem anyway, like I said, I’d work with the waitress to find a solution. If it’s impossible for her to be happy at my establishment, finding another job is the only option I can think of. I’m open to other solutions, but if that’s the only one, I’d gladly keep her on until she finds a place she can be happy at.


Twist: I convince her to stay, she breaks the Klansman, and 5 years from now they get married in the same spot where they first met.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jul 8, 2018, 06:26 PM
 
Try number 3.
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
When is it appropriate to exclude? Acceptable? (I'm assuming SHS being politely asked to leave is 'unacceptable')
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jul 8, 2018, 06:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If a person can politely tolerate being in an environment which strives to welcome all, then they would be welcome.
This really doesn't apply to the SHS situation, though, does it?

The entire problem with sociopaths is that they can peacefully eat dinner while heinous acts are being committed.
     
subego
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Jul 9, 2018, 03:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Try number 3.
“I welcome people who can politely dine in an environment welcoming to all” means I exclude those who can’t.

It is appropriate and acceptable to exclude those who can’t.


I thought you meant try the number 3, which is the two hot dog special.
     
subego
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Jul 9, 2018, 03:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
This really doesn't apply to the SHS situation, though, does it?

The entire problem with sociopaths is that they can peacefully eat dinner while heinous acts are being committed.
I’m not sure I would qualify SHS as a sociopath, but yes, my policy lets sociopaths through.
     
andi*pandi
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Jul 9, 2018, 04:08 PM
 
but only POLITE sociopaths
     
subego
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Jul 9, 2018, 04:21 PM
 
I like my beer cold, my TV loud, and my sociopaths polite.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jul 15, 2018, 11:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
“I welcome people who can politely dine in an environment welcoming to all” means I exclude those who can’t.

It is appropriate and acceptable to exclude those who can’t.


I thought you meant try the number 3, which is the two hot dog special.
So, nazis are ok as long as they're polite nazis?

Edit: When you said
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I stand for inclusivity. Throwing people out goes against that.
You were only talking in the narrow dining experience sense? Because I wasn't.
     
subego
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Jul 16, 2018, 06:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
So, nazis are ok as long as they're polite nazis?

Edit: When you said

You were only talking in the narrow dining experience sense? Because I wasn't.
Nazis who can politely dine amongst the rainbow flags while being served by a waitress of color will not be thrown out. To reiterate my reasoning, this is my policy because in most circumstances the Nazi will be made better for it.

I’m only talking in the narrow dining experience because apart from it being the ur-example for the thread, I’m only going to be able to create a concise policy for a scenario with some boundaries. I don’t have a policy which covers all possible scenarios, and it’s unreasonable to ask me to create one.

If there’s a specific situation you have in mind, fire away.

In a general sense however, I would say yes, I stand for inclusivity, and throwing people out does indeed go against that.
     
subego
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Jul 16, 2018, 07:31 PM
 
My apologies. That answer was crankier than it should have been. I’ve honestly been confused about what I’m being asked.

I think I understand it now. Let me drum up what’s hopefully a more on target response.
     
OldManMac
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Jul 16, 2018, 09:58 PM
 
What's all the fuss about civility? I hear there's a new found sense of it in Washington; every one's running around saying, "pardon me. pardon me."
Why is there always money for war, but none for education?
     
Chongo
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Jul 17, 2018, 12:11 PM
 
Interesting Pymptoon from the NYTimes.
https://nyti.ms/2IpQFM8
     
andi*pandi
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Jul 17, 2018, 12:40 PM
 
gets a little gross, there.
     
subego
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Jul 21, 2018, 09:46 AM
 
Yet another swing.

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Inclusivity?! You struck a nerve with that. Why should be inclusive of a person who lies to Americans daily, deligitimizes and insults journalists, and is indifferent to inhumane treatment of children and those fleeing terrible conditions?

When am I allowed to exclude people?
Overt exclusion invariably makes someone my enemy.

I’m a pragmatist, so exclusion is allowed when an enemy is my desired result.

I can base my desire on whether the person has declared me the enemy. The problem I have with this is the person is mistaken. I’m not the enemy. Correcting the mistake is the option I prefer.

This is where civility comes in. My attempts at correction end when their inability to remain civil begins.


What’s been lost in the shuffle is civility does not preclude confrontation, though I’ll admit rainbow flags make for a rather insipid example.

Sarah Huckabee Sanders makes the staff at the Red Hen feel vulnerable and afraid. If she wants to dine there, she should be directly confronted with it.

She should also be confronted with whether this means she is no longer welcome is in her court. If she doesn’t want to exclude herself, it would be huge mistake to exclude her anyway.
     
Face Ache
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Jul 22, 2018, 03:45 AM
 
The lines for the gas chambers were civil.

WWBMD?

     
subego
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Jul 23, 2018, 09:48 AM
 
The only difference between me and a Nazi, or a Republican for that matter, is I have a grip on my instincts.

People lose sight of the fact we’re designed to be horrible, disgusting ****s. It’s a testament to civilization many of us can spend so much time not being degenerates we get to forget how unnatural it is.

Even after thousands of years of effort, our grip on rising above savages is so tenuous, I’m far more frightened by those who would loosen their grip further than those who never had a grip in the first place.
     
OldManMac
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Jul 27, 2018, 11:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The only difference between me and a Nazi, or a Republican for that matter, is I have a grip on my instincts.

People lose sight of the fact we’re designed to be horrible, disgusting ****s. It’s a testament to civilization many of us can spend so much time not being degenerates we get to forget how unnatural it is.

Even after thousands of years of effort, our grip on rising above savages is so tenuous, I’m far more frightened by those who would loosen their grip further than those who never had a grip in the first place.
Can't agree with that. It that were true, we'd still be living in caves. There would be no progress.
Why is there always money for war, but none for education?
     
subego
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Jul 27, 2018, 01:52 PM
 
Hoe so?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Aug 5, 2018, 06:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Nazis who can politely dine amongst the rainbow flags while being served by a waitress of color will not be thrown out. To reiterate my reasoning, this is my policy because in most circumstances the Nazi will be made better for it.
That's ridiculous (IMO). At some point the immorality of the beliefs should trigger social consequences.

Your inclusiveness could be equally read as permissiveness. "If they really thought my views were so bad, they wouldn't even serve me."


Originally Posted by subego View Post
I’m only talking in the narrow dining experience because apart from it being the ur-example for the thread, I’m only going to be able to create a concise policy for a scenario with some boundaries. I don’t have a policy which covers all possible scenarios, and it’s unreasonable to ask me to create one.
That's fair.

In a general sense however, I would say yes, I stand for inclusivity, and throwing people out does indeed go against that.
The point I'm getting at is, let's say you let a Nazi dine in your restaurant because you think this will some how improve or turn them. 6 months later they haven't changed their views. Two years later, five years later, etc., when do you say "They're irredeemable" and kick them out? How long must your staff entertain the possibility of their redemption?


Originally Posted by subego View Post
Overt exclusion invariably makes someone my enemy.
Yes, racists are the enemy.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
I’m a pragmatist, so exclusion is allowed when an enemy is my desired result.
Exclusion is the message; "Your views are so bad we do not wish to socialize with you anymore." The person is left with re-examing their views or continuing to hold them at the price of being being shunned. If you still think you're right after that, well then, what's left to argue?

Originally Posted by subego View Post
What’s been lost in the shuffle is civility does not preclude confrontation, though I’ll admit rainbow flags make for a rather insipid example.

Sarah Huckabee Sanders makes the staff at the Red Hen feel vulnerable and afraid. If she wants to dine there, she should be directly confronted with it.

She should also be confronted with whether this means she is no longer welcome is in her court. If she doesn’t want to exclude herself, it would be huge mistake to exclude her anyway.
I don't follow. They should have said to her, "You're welcome to keep eating here if you disavow the administration you work for?"
     
subego
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Aug 7, 2018, 08:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
That's ridiculous (IMO). At some point the immorality of the beliefs should trigger social consequences.
Let’s say instead of throwing them out as an opening gambit, I lay down a guilt trip.

Is that not a social consequence?
     
subego
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Aug 9, 2018, 07:51 AM
 
To expand a little.

The optimal opening gambit with someone who has hurt you is to say “I am hurt, please help”. The idea isn’t to make them feel bad, it’s to provide them an opportunity to show basic human compassion. It’s not karate, it’s judo.

If they won’t show basic human compassion their behavior can hardly be called civil, whatever polite clothes they may dress on it.
     
 
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