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So let's go there. Let's say for the sake of discussion that there is a 10-15% error rate on the Terror Watch List. Because it won't be perfect under the Obama Administration or any other. The million dollar question as a matter of public policy is do you think it should be legal for someone who is on that list to be purchase a firearm? Yes or no?
OAW
Jeez.. AGAIN??? What part of "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" don't you comprehend? Go look up personal responsibility. NO! YOU should NOT be allowed to own a gun. Fix the list before trying to violate others 2nd amendment with it.
Jeez.. AGAIN??? What part of "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" don't you comprehend? Go look up personal responsibility. NO! YOU should NOT be allowed to own a gun. Fix the list before trying to violate others 2nd amendment with it.
I don't think you realize how you are contradicting yourself here.
It would appear this nutcase couldn't even get his Islamic extremist groups straight ....
The man behind the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history appeared to support multiple different and sometimes contrasting extremist groups, according to the FBI, complicating the understanding of Omar Mateen’s motivation.
Mateen told a 911 operator while holed up in an Orlando, Fla., nightclub that he was aligned with Abu Bakr al Baghdadi, the head of the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS).
But he also expressed support for the Boston marathon bombers and an American who blew himself up in Syria on behalf of a separate extremist group, the Nusra Front, which is linked to al Qaeda, FBI Director James Comey told reporters on Monday.
During a previous investigation, the FBI also discovered that he had allegedly boasted about having connections to al Qaeda and Hezbollah, a militant Shiite group that has been at odds with al Qaeda's Sunni branch of Islam. That investigation was closed in 2014, when officials determined there was not enough evidence to prompt a charge in the case.
The evocation of multiple extremists paints a complicated picture for the FBI, which is continuing to investigate why Mateen killed 49 people in Pulse, a gay nightclub, early on Sunday morning.
“I don't know what to make of it, except that it underscores the importance of the work we're now doing to find and understand all of his motivations and, if there are multiple, what they are and how to untangle them,” Comey said during a briefing at the FBI's headquarters in Washington.
“We will continue to look forward in this investigation — and backward,” Comey added. “We will leave no stone unturned. And we will work all day and all night to understand the path to that terrible act.”
Mateen’s killings are being investigated as an act of terrorism, but Comey and other administration officials have claimed that they do not believe it was directed by a foreign terrorism group or that he was part of a network operating in the U.S.
Early Sunday morning, Omar Mateen shot and killed 49 people at a gay nightclub in Orlando, perpetuating the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history. Mateen, his father explained the next day, had repeatedly been angered by the sight of two men kissing. But according to witnesses, Mateen was also a regular at the club and exchanged messages with at least one gay man on a gay dating app.
“It’s the same guy,” Chris Callen, who performs under the name Kristina McLaughlin, told the Canadian Press. “He’s been going to this bar for at least three years.”
Ty Smith, who also goes by the name Aries, also said he’d seen Mateen being escorted drunk from the club, Pulse, on multiple occasions.
“(He’d get) really, really drunk... He couldn’t drink when he was at home—around his wife, or family. His father was really strict... He used to bitch about it,” Smith told the Canadian Press.
“Sometimes he would go over in the corner and sit and drink by himself, and other times he would get so drunk he was loud and belligerent,” Smith also explained to the Orlando Sentinel, which spoke with at least four clubgoers who remembered seeing Mateen at Pulse at least a dozen times. “We didn’t really talk to him a lot, but I remember him saying things about his dad at times... He told us he had a wife and child.”
Both Callen and Smith, who are married, tell the Canadian Press they stopped speaking to Mateen after he threatened them with a knife, apparently after someone made a joke about religion.
“He ended up pulling a knife,” Callen said. “He said if he ever messed with him again, you know how it’ll turn out.”
Mateen, who was married in 2009, was abusive and unstable, his ex-wife says. They were married for just a few months before her parents rescued her from their home in Florida, leaving most of her belongings behind. It’s still unclear if he was married again after their divorce was finalized in 2011.
MSNBC host Chris Hayes also says he spoke to a man who claims both he and a friend received messages from Mateen via a gay dating app. The full story is set to air tonight on Haye’s show, All In.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
Because homophobic sentiment is "exclusive" to Islam ...
No one said it was, other groups simply don't slaughter innocent gays by the score. "But, but, other religions think teh gays are bad, too!!" WTF?!? You Islamic apologists are mental.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
A wannabe Islamic Terrorist? Or a closeted, gay man committing violence against those who openly embraced what he hated most about himself?
Actually possible, and he was told by his cleric that the only way he could get into heaven is by killing other gays, as a way of cleansing his sin.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
But naturally you only get your panties in a wad when a Muslim does it. Because if this guy hadn't have been stopped that would be "different" for you.
Police and FBI agents were working to figure out why a man from Indiana had three assault rifles and chemicals used in making explosives in his car some 2,000 miles from home in Southern California, where he told the officers arresting him that he was headed to a gay pride parade.
Santa Monica police and the FBI, which was leading the investigation, were examining the intentions of James Wesley Howell, 20, who told police he was going to LA Pride in West Hollywood, an event that annually draws hundreds of thousands of people. His arrest came just a few hours after at least 50 people were shot and killed in a gay nightclub in Orlando, Florida, though police said they had found no evidence of a connection between the events.
Howell, of Jeffersonville, was arrested around 5 a.m. after residents called police to report suspicious behavior by a man who parked his white Acura sedan facing the wrong way. When officers arrived they saw an assault rifle sitting in Howell's passenger seat, Santa Monica police Lt. Saul Rodriguez said.
That prompted them to search the whole car. They found two more assault rifles, high-capacity magazines and ammunition and a five-gallon bucket with chemicals that could be used to make an explosive device, police said.
Howell was charged in October in Clark County, Indiana, with pointing a firearm at someone, and with intimidation. He made a deal with prosecutors in April to plead guilty only to the misdemeanor intimidation charge. He was given one-year prison sentence that the judge suspended in favor of strict probation that prohibited him from having weapons.
How many people has he mamed or killed in the name of his religion?
Thought so.
Noone is making any excuses for what he wanted to do or what his motivation was.
But naturally you only get your panties in a wad when a Muslim does it. Because if this guy hadn't have been stopped that would be "different" for you.
A Facebook page that apparently is Howell's includes photos of the white Acura he was driving in Santa Monica. The postings are unremarkable. There's no enmity toward gays or notable political activism. One post says he's signing a petition to legalize marijuana.
The page's most recent public post, from June 3, shows a photo comparing an Adolf Hitler quote to one from Hillary Clinton. An anti-Clinton, pro-Bernie Sanders photo was posted in February.
The site said Howell worked as an auditor for a company that makes air filters.
The smoking gun! He's a Sanders supporter.
Don't be surprised if it turns out this idiot is a recent convert like the homie that bought the guns in the SB case.
But naturally you only get your panties in a wad when a Muslim does it. Because if this guy hadn't have been stopped that would be "different" for you.
Nope, they're in a twist over the frequency of Islamic psychopaths murdering innocent people, which you don't even have the intellectual honesty to admit is a problem with the religion. All abrahamic faiths denounce sin, but all-too ****ing often it's Islam that chooses to teach that it's some great deed to murder the sinners, and in the Orlando case it was an Imam a couple months ago teaching a disturbed young man that "killing gays is mercy". He preyed upon a weak mind and this is what we have; >50 dead, >50 families decimated, and millions more in fear for their lives, simply because of who they are and how they were born.
If anyone here believes that Islam isn't producing a vastly disproportionate number of killers, and instead chooses to make excuses for it, claiming its teachings, no matter how backwards and primitive, aren't to blame, you murdered those people too and a measure of their blood, and the blood of future victims, is on your handsas well. Frankly, I pray you never find peace until you realize the truth, Islam at its core is poison.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
I don't especially buy that anymore. Although Islam is certifiable, I agree with you there, the worst of the crazy has only been around for a few decades. Islam respects strength, it's how they operate. You show that you're someone to be reckoned with and refuse to back down and we'll take care of the problem, our situation is we continue to capitulate to this scum and they have no respect for us. As far as people, "taking it out on innocent Muslims", you can STFU until there's actual evidence of our society being less than cordial. You forget that I've been to your country, frequently, and you have the highest concentration of "mouth-breathers" I've ever seen.
Our mouth breathers aren't the same as yours. They only get angry when you poke them. Yours seem to walk around in a permanent state of simmering rage, looking for excuses everywhere to vent.
You don't have to kill or assault someone to turn them against you. Suspicious looks and people whispering behind your back everywhere you go. A few months or years of that treatment could be enough to drive someone to look down darker paths they otherwise wouldn't.
You seem to realise the strong parallels between these Islamic and Christian attitudes yet you deny there are any. Then you admit that the only real difference is that more Muslims have the balls to make good on their hate threats. The Christians are all mouth and no trousers.
Maybe Muslims have evolved a genetic tendency to snap and kill or maybe its a different flavour of the social conditioning that sees you lot getting a bit too emotional over flags and soldiers.
Look how angry you are over what, a few hundred dead Americans at the hands of Muslims in the last few years? Meanwhile your country and mine invade theirs, replace their governments and help ourselves to their money and oil, killing thousands in the process with bombs and drone strikes and raids. Now realise that while elements of your establishment are constantly telling you "Radical Islam is the greatest threat America has ever known", similar elements are telling them the same about you. That you want to destroy Islam no matter what.
Now we can tell ourselves we're right because they have rules and laws that we know to be outdated and barbaric, but our collective complaints for them to give women equal rights is really no different from us trying to tell you that your gun laws are stupid. We all just have to keep telling each other until everybody learns.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
Example? I don't believe that works the way you think it does. We already have mechanisms in place to stop this. Our system simply failed, like a TSA agent during rush hour.
It is currently legal for people on the no-fly list to buy guns. How is that like someone having an off day? The system is hobbled and being kept that way.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
It's not that you can't, it's that you have no actual rebuttal. :roll eyes:
We all know I do, and we all know my logic will bounce off your brainwashing so why waste the time?
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
Yep, `fraid so. However, your views on how I see the religion, from a scholarly perspective, are wholly invalid, and largely just another personal attack (to go along with the dozen or so others levied at me in an attempt to derail this conversation).
Since I'm the only one who didn't accuse you of lying about having such a degree and I framed my point quite generically as it would apply to anyone with a strong bias trying to study a subject that requires a certain amount of objectivity I don't know how you can take this part as a personal attack.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
I've written papers on the great accomplishments of Islam, because they were one of the few sources of cultural advancement during a very dark time in human history, but the problem is, too many of its followers are still in that same era. For example, 12 Muslim countries still throw gays off buildings as punishment for same-sex relations, it's their official state position on homosexuality, and 7 more don't prosecute those who do (which is as bad as state-sanctioned murder).
What was enlightened 1400 years ago is incredibly barbaric today, and it becomes our direct problem when their clerics come to Western countries and teach those same beliefs, that killing gays is being merciful. Again, that was the position of a moderate imam, conservatives and actual radicals are far worse.
I might even go so far to say they are more barbaric today than 700 years ago.
Were these papers published? I don't suppose you'd care to share?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
Our mouth breathers aren't the same as yours. They only get angry when you poke them. Yours seem to walk around in a permanent state of simmering rage, looking for excuses everywhere to vent.
As you don't know the people in rural Appalachia, only what the media says to slander them, I say you're terribly misinformed. They're extremely slow to anger and very passive, until someone screws with them. You're much more likely to get the shit beaten out of you by a chav than you are a hillbilly.
You don't have to kill or assault someone to turn them against you. Suspicious looks and people whispering behind your back everywhere you go. A few months or years of that treatment could be enough to drive someone to look down darker paths they otherwise wouldn't.
or they could start following Islam, the only prominent link between the vast majority of mass-murdering psychopaths over the last 30 years.
You seem to realise the strong parallels between these Islamic and Christian attitudes yet you deny there are any. Then you admit that the only real difference is that more Muslims have the balls to make good on their hate threats. The Christians are all mouth and no trousers.
Christianity rarely creates killers, unlike Islam, despite there being a roughly equal number of followers worldwide. Christianity embraces the doctrine of "love they enemy", whereas Islam teaches ostracization, financial oppression (the Jizya), and eventual violent conflict, unless someone converts. And God forbid someone tries to leave Islam, that's a death sentence. Again, killing gays is not only common in the Muslim world, it's part of Sharia law.
Maybe Muslims have evolved a genetic tendency to snap and kill
It's in the Quran, and imams who don't teach a balanced view on it, including redacting entire Surahs (which is seen as Haram), create jihadis.
Look how angry you are over what, a few hundred dead Americans at the hands of Muslims in the last few years? Meanwhile your country and mine invade theirs, replace their governments and help ourselves to their money and oil, killing thousands in the process with bombs and drone strikes and raids. Now realise that while elements of your establishment are constantly telling you "Radical Islam is the greatest threat America has ever known", similar elements are telling them the same about you. That you want to destroy Islam no matter what.
What the actual ****? The Middle East is run by warlords, thanks to Islam, wealthy sheiks who do what they want, when they want, with no concern for consequences (because Islamic law is on their side), it's a Theocratic feudal system with only token observance given to democracy, and not even that in the wealthiest countries. Those clerics and warlords created this system long before anyone from the West started playing politics with them, and when oil became so important, it added incalculable wealth to an already toxic, primitive political system. The #1 thing we can do to stem the tide is to break our dependence on their oil and cut into the $$ they use to fund the spread of Islam and global Jihad. I've never said I want to destroy Islam, many times on this forum I've expressed that it needs a Reformation, and update for modern times and a far more liberal world view, and until that happens, we will be at odds with even their mainstream (let alone their much more radical elements).
Now we can tell ourselves we're right because they have rules and laws that we know to be outdated and barbaric, but our collective complaints for them to give women equal rights is really no different from us trying to tell you that your gun laws are stupid. We all just have to keep telling each other until everybody learns.
Garbage and even more false equivalence. "You guys have teh guns! That's as bad as Theocratic feudalism and laws that outlaw being born gay!"
It is currently legal for people on the no-fly list to buy guns. How is that like someone having an off day? The system is hobbled and being kept that way.
Laws that exist simply aren't being enforced, the system that should have stopped this guy failed, and gun violence worse in the most "Progressive" parts of the USA, which coincidentally have the least amount of guns and the most "gun-free zones". The shooter in this case should have never been allowed to buy his firearms, but he did, and a lot of people who let that happen need to be held accountable, not the 99.99% of decent, law-abiding gun owners who would never even contemplate doing something as vile as this.
We all know I do, and we all know my logic will bounce off your brainwashing so why waste the time?
No, "we" certainly do not. I'm not the brainwashed, Leftist regressive here, somehow trying to defend a backwards theocratic system that endorses, under Sharia law, the systematic oppression and killing of homosexuals. and you wonder where the terrorist got his ideas? They were introduced to him by his religious leaders.
Since I'm the only one who didn't accuse you of lying about having such a degree and I framed my point quite generically as it would apply to anyone with a strong bias trying to study a subject that requires a certain amount of objectivity I don't know how you can take this part as a personal attack.
My bias comes from observation of world events, which is entirely different from the process of religious study. Objectively there's a great deal of beauty in Islam, from a perspective of scholarship, however in its "Orthodox" form it simply doesn't mesh with Western culture and modern Liberalism.
Were these papers published? I don't suppose you'd care to share?
At one time under the university press, maybe a hundred copies were printed, but they're currently not in the public domain.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
What a coincidence, I saw that earlier too. It's an Al Jazeera propaganda video. There's zero evidence to prove "Amaryllis Fox" was ever a "CIA operative", the only thing we DO know is that she's a paid activist.
I have a feeling that Ms. Fox is exaggerating her service, or purposefully misleading viewers to believe she has more experience than she does. She is, after all, a paid speaker that leverages her "unique experience" for profit. Realize that she is no longer in the Clandestine Service (if she ever was to begin with), and there is no reason, for there to be significant inconsistencies with her story.
Her biography on the website that promotes her speaking engagements says this about her background (emphasis mine):
In 2002, Amaryllis graduated Oxford with an honors degree and started graduate work in international security at Georgetown University's School of Foreign Service. There she developed an algorithm to predict terrorist activity under thesis advisor Dan Byman, a leading thinker on terrorism and US security policy. Asked by the University's CIA Officer in Residence, Dallas Jones, to share the algorithm with the Agency, she soon began work as a political and terrorism analyst for SE Asia, commuting between Langley and Georgetown to finish her degree with honors in 2004. Following graduation, she moved into the operational training program and served as a Clandestine Service officer overseas until 2009.
So according to this profile, she graduated in 2004 and then went to either PTP or CST, neither of which are short programs. She then served as a CIA officer until only 2009? So she was a collector or case officer for what, three to four years? She would likely start in PTP and then move to CST, which would only increase the time she spent in training, decreasing the time she spent as an actual officer.
TedXTeen says she spent SIX years in government service. That's not "almost a decade as a case officer". Bizarrely, her profile on Glamour says she graduated in 2003 (not 2004) and that she spent SEVEN years in government service. She confirms this seven year number in her TedxTeen speech. That would mean she left the CIA in 2010? Seven is closer to "almost a decade", but with so many inconsistencies about her time in service, I don't know what to believe. It sounds like she is including her time at Georgetown working as a graduate student as time working in counter terrorism. Great experience in academia, but it is NOT applicable towards time as a CIA case officer.
Even worse, if we accept that she immediately began to work for the CIA when she graduated in 2004, and she rapidly passed training and started serving as a case officer in 2005, by her own account, she was working as a partner for a point-of-sale software company in 2007, in the middle of her CIA "career", then she left the CIA in 2009 and started her own company in 2010). What does it say about her career in the CIA if, in the middle of her time at the CIA, she was working a second job? Why, during the middle of her time with the CIA, was she a partner for a software company? That's not a NOC as far as I can tell. And if she spent almost a decade as a case officer, and she acknowledges and promotes herself as a former CIA officer, why does her Linkedin say nothing about that service? She doesn't need to hide that information any longer. She obviously isn't trying to hide that information.
It's also weird that she chose the word "debriefing" to describe the conversation with the "Al Qaeda" fighter. Debriefings are for agency assets - friendly forces, allied persons, informants, etc. An Al Qaeda fighter wouldn't be "debriefed" unless he was a source. If he was a source, she shouldn't have said debriefed, she should've said "conversation" or something vague. Good operational security, Ms. Fox.
This woman is purposefully misleading people into believing she has a decade of experience as a case officer. If anything she is saying is true, she likely did less than four years as an actual case officer. In the CIA world, she was extremely junior in both position and experience. She is merely inflating herself as a way to promote her speaking engagements and writings. Also, her plea for us to "listen to the enemy" is a sweet notion, but when the enemy is only interested in your destruction or in fundamentally altering the world as we know it, there is little room for compassion or negotiation.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
OMG this nonsense again. Have you actually read Leviticus 20?
Originally Posted by Leviticus 20
Punishments for Sin
1The Lord said to Moses, 2“Say to the Israelites: ‘Any Israelite or any foreigner residing in Israel who sacrifices any of his children to Molek is to be put to death. The members of the community are to stone him. 3I myself will set my face against him and will cut him off from his people; for by sacrificing his children to Molek, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. 4If the members of the community close their eyes when that man sacrifices one of his children to Molek and if they fail to put him to death, 5I myself will set my face against him and his family and will cut them off from their people together with all who follow him in prostituting themselves to Molek.
6“ ‘I will set my face against anyone who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute themselves by following them, and I will cut them off from their people.
7“ ‘Consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am the Lord your God. 8Keep my decrees and follow them. I am the Lord, who makes you holy.
9“ ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. Because they have cursed their father or mother, their blood will be on their own head.
10“ ‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.
11“ ‘If a man has sexual relations with his father’s wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
12“ ‘If a man has sexual relations with his daughter-in-law, both of them are to be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads.
13“ ‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
14“ ‘If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.
15“ ‘If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he is to be put to death, and you must kill the animal.
16“ ‘If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
17“ ‘If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They are to be publicly removed from their people. He has dishonored his sister and will be held responsible.
18“ ‘If a man has sexual relations with a woman during her monthly period, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them are to be cut off from their people.
19“ ‘Do not have sexual relations with the sister of either your mother or your father, for that would dishonor a close relative; both of you would be held responsible.
20“ ‘If a man has sexual relations with his aunt, he has dishonored his uncle. They will be held responsible; they will die childless.
21“ ‘If a man marries his brother’s wife, it is an act of impurity; he has dishonored his brother. They will be childless.
22“ ‘Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out. 23You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them. 24But I said to you, “You will possess their land; I will give it to you as an inheritance, a land flowing with milk and honey.” I am the Lord your God, who has set you apart from the nations.
25“ ‘You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean animals and between unclean and clean birds. Do not defile yourselves by any animal or bird or anything that moves along the ground—those that I have set apart as unclean for you. 26You are to be holy to me because I, the Lord, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own.
27“ ‘A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.’ ”
So we have a laundry list of "sins" most of which are sexual in nature that are punishable by death in Mosaic Law. A Law which is a fundamental part of Jewish identity. It's what they believed "set [them] apart from the nations". Or at least that's what they liked to tell themselves. In any event don't sit up here an pretend like crazy sounding stuff like this is only found in the Qu'ran.
1If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.
6If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.
12If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely,a both its people and its livestock. 16You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt, 17and none of the condemned thingsb are to be found in your hands. Then the Lord will turn from his fierce anger, will show you mercy, and will have compassion on you. He will increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your ancestors— 18because you obey the Lord your God by keeping all his commands that I am giving you today and doing what is right in his eyes.
Do you really think this is any different than what is found in the Qu'ran about "unbelievers" being killed?
1The Lord said to Moses, 2“Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.”
3So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord’s vengeance on them. 4Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel.” 5So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.
7They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.
13Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.
15“Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16“They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Right there in black and white we have Moses ordering his troops to commit rape and pedophilia against young girls.
Now if one is a Christian who subscribes to this notion that the Old Testament is no longer applicable because of Jesus and the New Testament ... as it is a very popular albeit non-scriptural part of mainstream Christian dogma ... well did Jesus have to say about the topic?
Originally Posted by Matthew 5:17-20
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Originally Posted by Luke 16:16-17
The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it. It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.
My point here is that BOTH the Bible and the Qu'ran are reflections of ancient middle eastern culture. Which very often was brutal and savage by modern day standards. So the issue isn't this scriptural text vs that one. The problem is religious fundamentalism that's rooted in such outdated and backwards notions. Period! What keeps us in Western societies protected from the worst excesses of this nowadays isn't some sort of "superiority" of Judaeo-Christian religiosity over its Islamic counterpart. On the contrary it's the embrace of Cafeteria Christianity in practice if not in name along with secularism in the public square ... especially when it comes to government ... that shields us from the madness.
Acts 15Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
The Council at Jerusalem
15 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 And when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question. 3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoeni′cia and Samar′ia, reporting the conversion of the Gentiles, and they gave great joy to all the brethren. 4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them. 5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up, and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses.”
6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God who knows the heart bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us; 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”
12 And all the assembly kept silence; and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13 After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brethren, listen to me. 14 Symeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, as it is written,
16 ‘After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the dwelling of David, which has fallen;
I will rebuild its ruins,
and I will set it up,
17 that the rest of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
18 says the Lord, who has made these things known from of old.’
19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the pollutions of idols and from unchastity and from what is strangled[a] and from blood. 21 For from early generations Moses has had in every city those who preach him, for he is read every sabbath in the synagogues.”
The Council’s Letter to Gentile Believers
22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsab′bas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, 23 with the following letter: “The brethren, both the apostles and the elders, to the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cili′cia, greeting. 24 Since we have heard that some persons from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, 25 it has seemed good to us in assembly to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled[b] and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”
30 So when they were sent off, they went down to Antioch; and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter. 31 And when they read it, they rejoiced at the exhortation. 32 And Judas and Silas, who were themselves prophets, exhorted the brethren with many words and strengthened them. 33 And after they had spent some time, they were sent off in peace by the brethren to those who had sent them.[c] 35 But Paul and Barnabas remained in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also.
What a coincidence, I saw that earlier too. It's an Al Jazeera propaganda video. There's zero evidence to prove "Amaryllis Fox" was ever a "CIA operative", the only thing we DO know is that she's a paid activist.
I'm not sure any of that really takes away from what she says though. It still sounds very sensible to me. Do you think Hitler considered himself the bad guy? I bet he didn't.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
As you don't know the people in rural Appalachia, only what the media says to slander them, I say you're terribly misinformed. They're extremely slow to anger and very passive, until someone screws with them. You're much more likely to get the shit beaten out of you by a chav than you are a hillbilly.
I certainly don't know all the backwards weirdos in America, but I have spent time talking to a lot of them and they do have a lot disturbing ammosexual tendencies in common.
Plus Chavs might try to beat you up, but they can't shoot you.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
Christianity rarely creates killers, unlike Islam, despite there being a roughly equal number of followers worldwide. Christianity embraces the doctrine of "love they enemy", whereas Islam teaches ostracization, financial oppression (the Jizya), and eventual violent conflict, unless someone converts. And God forbid someone tries to leave Islam, that's a death sentence. Again, killing gays is not only common in the Muslim world, it's part of Sharia law.
Actually if we take the evidence as conclusive that Islam created this killer, Christianity creates plenty. It doesn't seem to create so many mass killers, but still plenty of killers. Certainly plenty of insane killers who cite Christianity or bits of it. They do tend to be disowned as 'not real Christians' by their fellow Christians though.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
What the actual ****? The Middle East is run by warlords, thanks to Islam, wealthy sheiks who do what they want, when they want, with no concern for consequences (because Islamic law is on their side), it's a Theocratic feudal system with only token observance given to democracy, and not even that in the wealthiest countries. Those clerics and warlords created this system long before anyone from the West started playing politics with them, and when oil became so important, it added incalculable wealth to an already toxic, primitive political system. The #1 thing we can do to stem the tide is to break our dependence on their oil and cut into the $$ they use to fund the spread of Islam and global Jihad. I've never said I want to destroy Islam, many times on this forum I've expressed that it needs a Reformation, and update for modern times and a far more liberal world view, and until that happens, we will be at odds with even their mainstream (let alone their much more radical elements).
The Sheiks are all in Europe snorting coke off hookers in their Lamborghinis and generally doing unIslamic things because they can get away with it here. Most Europeans can't tell them apart, remember, pronounce or spell their names. Those who can I guess are well compensated to keep quiet.
Its the clerics who are really in charge, even the Saudi royals fear their influence.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
The shooter in this case should have never been allowed to buy his firearms, but he did, and a lot of people who let that happen need to be held accountable, not the 99.99% of decent, law-abiding gun owners who would never even contemplate doing something as vile as this.
So you're saying the background check as it stands should have caught this guy and stopped him? I haven't heard this anywhere else.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
trying to defend a backwards theocratic system that endorses, under Sharia law, the systematic oppression and killing of homosexuals. and you wonder where the terrorist got his ideas? They were introduced to him by his religious leaders.
I'm not defending Islam. I'm really just trying to point out that Christianity isn't so different. Especially in America. In Northern Europe, most Christians are about the love and forgiveness parts rather than the fire, brimstone and stoning your wife parts (lets leave Ireland out of things though). You guys seem to have many with much more extreme, old testament views on things.
I'm not so sure Islam was as big a factor in this incident as it is with many others. An erratic, bipolar, devout, self-hating gay muslim trying to score in a night club? Theres a good chance he caught more than a little rejection for a variety of reasons. This could be just like a school shooting centred around feelings of disenfranchisement, being misunderstood, rejected and bullied, and then throw in sexual frustration (something which I think is a huge driver in religious violence, particularly Islamic).
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
I'm not sure any of that really takes away from what she says though. It still sounds very sensible to me. Do you think Hitler considered himself the bad guy? I bet he didn't.
Not really. He knew exactly what he was doing, that it was evil, he simply didn't care and believed the ends justified the means (much like those on the regressive Left).
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
OMG this nonsense again. Have you actually read Leviticus 20? ?
Christians don't take it seriously, it isn't taught that such things are to be enforced. Again, Jesus countered all of that by saying that his followers are to love their enemies, be kind to those they disagree with, and obey the laws of the land. He went out of his way, twice, to let people know that they're not to kill adulterers or fornicators, but rather Christians should forgive and pray for them.
Do you really think this is any different than what is found in the Qu'ran about "unbelievers" being killed?
To the New Testament? Absolutely. Since Jesus is God to Christians, his words supercede all others.
Right there in black and white we have Moses ordering his troops to commit rape and pedophilia against young girls.
Don't care. Jesus fulfilled the Law, the covenant with God is through Him. (If a person is Christian.)
Now if one is a Christian who subscribes to this notion that the Old Testament is no longer applicable because of Jesus and the New Testament ... as it is a very popular albeit non-scriptural part of mainstream Christian dogma ... well did Jesus have to say about the topic?
Hogwash. When Jesus ascended into heaven after the resurrection, it was accomplished, heaven and Earth were reconciled through his sacrifice. (This is also why Christians stopped making blood sacrifices, they were no longer needed.) Christ was the goal, purpose, and objective of the Law.
My point here is that BOTH the Bible and the Qu'ran are reflections of ancient middle eastern culture. Which very often was brutal and savage by modern day standards. So the issue isn't this scriptural text vs that one. The problem is religious fundamentalism that's rooted in such outdated and backwards notions. Period! What keeps us in Western societies protected from the worst excesses of this nowadays isn't some sort of "superiority" of Judaeo-Christian religiosity over its Islamic counterpart. On the contrary it's the embrace of Cafeteria Christianity in practice if not in name along with secularism in the public square ... especially when it comes to government ... that shields us from the madness.
Christians no longer follow the Old Testament, because Jesus fulfilled the Law, he became the embodiment of it. "I AM said I AM" or "God said that I am God", "I AM the way, the truth, and the Life, no man approaches the Father except through Me." Islam still has those backwards laws, and they're still practiced throughout all countries that follow Sharia law, where being gay is illegal, and if you're lucky it will only get you imprisoned, but more often than not gets you murdered: thrown off buildings, stoned, hung, decapitated, etc.. It's barbarism and has no place in Western culture.
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Last edited by Cap'n Tightpants; Jun 15, 2016 at 10:05 AM.
)
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
I wish you would be a little more concise, not everyone here understands your cryptic comments that have no commentary. You do that frequently. I get what you're saying but most won't.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
I certainly don't know all the backwards weirdos in America, but I have spent time talking to a lot of them and they do have a lot disturbing ammosexual tendencies in common.
Plus Chavs might try to beat you up, but they can't shoot you.
For all the guns owned by hillbillies, and they do own a ton of them, and their love of gun culture (saw a guy just yesterday toting an 8" .44 magnum on his hip in the middle of a pet store), you rarely hear about rural shootings. You're much more likely to be shot in cities, even accounting for population density. They also hate fighting, they'll simply shun someone rather than confront them, unless you really get in their face and provoke them.
Actually if we take the evidence as conclusive that Islam created this killer, Christianity creates plenty. It doesn't seem to create so many mass killers, but still plenty of killers. Certainly plenty of insane killers who cite Christianity or bits of it. They do tend to be disowned as 'not real Christians' by their fellow Christians though.
Citations? This murdering scum pledged to ISIS during the killings, was screaming "Allahu Akbar!" while doing it, like so many other Islamic extremists.
The Sheiks are all in Europe snorting coke off hookers in their Lamborghinis and generally doing unIslamic things because they can get away with it here. Most Europeans can't tell them apart, remember, pronounce or spell their names. Those who can I guess are well compensated to keep quiet.
No. A few do that, most stay close to home to take care of their businesses, more than 80% have never left the M.E.
Its the clerics who are really in charge, even the Saudi royals fear their influence.
and that's the problem, no Church should ever control the State. It's antithetical to Western Liberalism. I don't support it, no matter what religion it is. The Holy See gets away with it, but it's a city-state comprised solely of clergy. Even then, it still abides by Italian and EU law.
So you're saying the background check as it stands should have caught this guy and stopped him? I haven't heard this anywhere else.
He should have been flagged for his mental health issues, apparently the FBI knew and did nothing.
I'm not defending Islam. I'm really just trying to point out that Christianity isn't so different. Especially in America.
Yet we aren't producing terrorists like Islam, the sheer number of radical muslims is appalling, terrifying. their clerics, as I've pointed out time and again, teach that killing gays is "mercy". This happens because Sharia law demands it.
Sec. p17.0: SODOMY AND LESBIANISM
Sec. p17.1: In more than one place in the Holy Koran, Allah recounts to us the story of Lot’s people, and how He destroyed them for their wicked practice. There is consensus among both Muslims and the followers of all other religions that sodomy is an enormity. It is even viler and uglier than adultery [AM: which is punished brutally, including by death].
Sec. p17.2: Allah Most High says: “Do you approach the males of humanity, leaving the wives Allah has created for you? But you are a people who transgress” (Koran 26:165-66).
Sec. p17.3: The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said: “Kill the one who sodomizes and the one who lets it be done to him.” “May Allah curse him who does what Lot’s people did.” “Lesbianism by women is adultery between them.”
I'm not so sure Islam was as big a factor in this incident as it is with many others.
See above, think again. It's at its core.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
I wish you would be a little more concise, not everyone here understands your cryptic comments that have no commentary. You do that frequently. I get what you're saying but most won't.
That is why I quoted Acts 15. There were(and are now) those who claim that gentile converts had to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses in order to be saved.
This was the decision of the Council of Jerusalem:
RSV CE
28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:
29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled[b] and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”
NAB RE (used for daily readings at Mass)
28 It is the decision of the holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities,
29
namely, to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from meats of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage. If you keep free of these, you will be doing what is right. Farewell.’”l
For our King James only friends.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
in ther words, by the power of "binding and loosing" granted by Jesus, we are reased from keeping the ceremonial and ritual law of Moses. The moral law remains in force.
Yet we aren't producing terrorists like Islam, the sheer number of radical muslims is appalling, terrifying. their clerics, as I've pointed out time and again, teach that killing gays is "mercy". This happens because Sharia law demands it.
Sec. p17.0: SODOMY AND LESBIANISM
Sec. p17.1: In more than one place in the Holy Koran, Allah recounts to us the story of Lot’s people, and how He destroyed them for their wicked practice. There is consensus among both Muslims and the followers of all other religions that sodomy is an enormity. It is even viler and uglier than adultery [AM: which is punished brutally, including by death].
Sec. p17.2: Allah Most High says: “Do you approach the males of humanity, leaving the wives Allah has created for you? But you are a people who transgress” (Koran 26:165-66).
Sec. p17.3: The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said: “Kill the one who sodomizes and the one who lets it be done to him.” “May Allah curse him who does what Lot’s people did.” “Lesbianism by women is adultery between them.”
Christians don't take it seriously, it isn't taught that such things are to be enforced.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
Christians no longer follow the Old Testament, because Jesus fulfilled the Law, he became the embodiment of it. "I AM said I AM" or "God said that I am God", "I AM the way, the truth, and the Life, no man approaches the Father except through Me." Islam still has those backwards laws, and they're still practiced throughout all countries that follow Sharia law, where being gay is illegal, and if you're lucky it will only get you imprisoned, but more often than not gets you murdered: thrown off buildings, stoned, hung, decapitated, etc.. It's barbarism and has no place in Western culture.
Here's where your argument falls downs. Let's say for the sake of discussion that we roll with the whole "Jesus / New Testament supersedes the Old Testament" thing. That is simply NOT APPLICABLE to Judaism. But we don't see you disparaging that religion in its entirety even though it explicitly embraces the same sorts of "laws" in the Old Testament that you are legitimately criticizing as Islam does in the Qu'ran. And you can't try to come back with "Jews don't take it seriously, it isn't taught that such things are to be enforced." because the reality is that in the vast majority of Islamic nations ... most of which are NOT Arab or even in the Middle East ... "Muslims don't take it seriously, it isn't taught that such things are to be enforced." That's a FACT! Not that little things like that particularly matter to you.
For all the guns owned by hillbillies, and they do own a ton of them, and their love of gun culture (saw a guy just yesterday toting an 8" .44 magnum on his hip in the middle of a pet store), you rarely hear about rural shootings. You're much more likely to be shot in cities, even accounting for population density. They also hate fighting, they'll simply shun someone rather than confront them, unless you really get in their face and provoke them.
Country folk are more relaxed. City folk are uptight angry bastards.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
Citations? This murdering scum pledged to ISIS during the killings, was screaming "Allahu Akbar!" while doing it, like so many other Islamic extremists.
Its pretty common for people to hear voices they attribute to god/satan/angels/demons. There was a woman who decapitated her baby and ate his brains as instructed. Clearly she was mad as a hatter but she applied a Christian theme over her insanity. Sometimes its just a case of whichever religion is most familiar. Someone raised strictly Catholic is unlikely to attribute a voice in their head to Mohammed.
[QUOTE=Cap'n Tightpants;4358446]and that's the problem, no Church should ever control the State. It's antithetical to Western Liberalism. I don't support it, no matter what religion it is. The Holy See gets away with it, but it's a city-state comprised solely of clergy. Even then, it still abides by Italian and EU law.[QUOTE]
Careful, we're going to start agreeing with each other.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
He should have been flagged for his mental health issues, apparently the FBI knew and did nothing.
Makes you wonder why the FBI didn't do that. Do they have the power to make people flag up in background checks?
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
Yet we aren't producing terrorists like Islam, the sheer number of radical muslims is appalling, terrifying. their clerics, as I've pointed out time and again, teach that killing gays is "mercy". This happens because Sharia law demands it.
No, Christian terrorists are rather rarer. The old testament has some similar laws and punishments of course but like you say if you call yourself a Christian, your focus should be on the NT and it should rather obviously supersede any conflict with the OT. We're agreeing again. :/
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
See above, think again. It's at its core.
We'll never really be 100% sure.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
Let's say for the sake of discussion that we roll with the whole "Jesus / New Testament supersedes the Old Testament" thing.
Sure does, Jesus fulfilled the Law. Numerous ecumenical councils were held to discuss this, it's canon.
That is simply NOT APPLICABLE to Judaism. But we don't see you disparaging that religion in its entirety even though it explicitly embraces the same sorts of "laws" in the Old Testament that you are legitimately criticizing as Islam does in the Qu'ran.And you can't try to come back with "Jews don't take it seriously, it isn't taught that such things are to be enforced." because the reality is that in the vast majority of Islamic nations ... most of which are NOT Arab or even in the Middle East ... "Muslims don't take it seriously, it isn't taught that such things are to be enforced."
Because Judaism rarely produces wackos. Why? Because the Midrash toned down the bloody parts of it, then their religious laws were further subdued after the destruction of the second temple to include very precise wording that all Jews are to obey the laws of the land and respect the sanctity of life above the literal word of the Torah. Islam hasn't had such a reformation, unlike Judaism and Christianity, to conform with more modern values that may interfere with the ravings of desert nomads who lived 1000s of years ago.
That's a FACT! Not that little things like that particularly matter to you.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
To distill this down into something even simpler: we wouldn't be having these problems if religion didn't exist. If Islam didn't exist human beings would fine a religion to replace it with that brought people to these same horrific deeds, because religion is easy to twist so many ways. I don't think we need a religion to do the good things that are currently associated with it too.
Let's say for the sake of discussion that we roll with the whole "Jesus / New Testament supersedes the Old Testament" thing.
Sure does, Jesus fulfilled the Law. Numerous ecumenical councils were held to discuss this, it's canon.
OAW doesn't recognize ecumenical councils, including the first.
Originally Posted by besson3c
To distill this down into something even simpler: we wouldn't be having these problems if religion didn't exist. If Islam didn't exist human beings would fine a religion to replace it with that brought people to these same horrific deeds, because religion is easy to twist so many ways. I don't think we need a religion to do the good things that are currently associated with it too.
Look how well that worked out for the Soviet Union, Mao's China , Kampuchea, etc
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Last edited by Chongo; Jun 16, 2016 at 11:22 AM.
)
OAW doesn't recognize ecumenical councils, including the first.
Oh yeah, he doesn't understand what Christianity is, that's right.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
To distill this down into something even simpler: we wouldn't be having these problems if religion didn't exist. If Islam didn't exist human beings would fine a religion to replace it with that brought people to these same horrific deeds, because religion is easy to twist so many ways. I don't think we need a religion to do the good things that are currently associated with it too.
If Christianity became like that we'd need to deal with them too, fortunately they usually only talk ignorant garbage and have an overall value of life that supersedes their barbaric origins, stemming from Jesus commanding them to love their enemies*. While occasionally one of them does go off the rails, it isn't with any more frequency than anyone who is non-religious (unlike Islam). So if they need a faith they can choose one of the myriad of orthodox, regional variations of Christianity which are much less likely to produce this type of murderous, hateful, rage.
(*and you can love someone while disagreeing with them and their lifestyle, despite what SJWs like to believe.)
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
The "Wage Gap" Paradox: If a company could get away with paying women 28% less, why would they ever hire men?
How is this a paradox?
A major league baseball team can save money by paying AAA players, but sometimes you want the best that money has to offer and are willing to pay for it. The question is, why should women make 28% less when they are the best that money has to offer?
Because Judaism rarely produces wackos. Why? Because the Midrash toned down the bloody parts of it, then their religious laws were further subdued after the destruction of the second temple to include very precise wording that all Jews are to obey the laws of the land and respect the sanctity of life above the literal word of the Torah. Islam hasn't had such a reformation, unlike Judaism and Christianity, to conform with more modern values that may interfere with the ravings of desert nomads who lived 1000s of years ago.
Really? Because the last I checked Islam has the Tafsir to provide exegesis of the Qu'ran just as Judaism has the Midrash to perform the same function for the Torah. Furthermore, you claim "Islam hasn't had such a reformation" yet the Qu'ran specifically states:
Originally Posted by Qu'ran 4:59
O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.
And as you can see here that includes "For citizens, they must obey the established authorities (e.g. the courts, the police, etc). They must obey the law of the land as long as it does not violate God's law."
Let's set aside that Ms. Ali is hardly a neutral author on topic. She's had an axe to grind with Islam for quite some time now. To the point where she is now the "go to pundit" for anything anti-Islam on conservative media. This again is yet another example of where your own source confirms my point.
Recall what I said ...
Originally Posted by OAW
...because the reality is that in the vast majority of Islamic nations ... most of which are NOT Arab or even in the Middle East ... "Muslims don't take it seriously, it isn't taught that such things are to be enforced." That's a FACT! Not that little things like that particularly matter to you.
The point of contention here is whether or not there is something specific to Islam that makes it incompatible with modern society. You cited passages from the Qu'ran as "evidence" of your contention. But I rebutted that by pointing out that there are passages from the ancient scriptures of all three Abrahamic religions that are incompatible with modern society. So then the question becomes why do you have such a hard-on for Muslims about it? Especially when I also pointed out that WRT such passages the vast majority of Muslims "don't take it seriously" just like the vast majority of Jews and Christians? But you respond to that with a book that has this in its description ...
Today, she argues, the world’s 1.6 billion Muslims can be divided into a minority of extremists, a majority of observant but peaceable Muslims and a few dissidents who risk their lives by questioning their own religion.
The author you are citing is making the point of contrasting the "majority of observant but peaceable Muslims" with the "minority of extremists". So WTF are you once again you try to "rebut" my position with something that's saying the same damned thing!
A major league baseball team can save money by paying AAA players, but sometimes you want the best that money has to offer and are willing to pay for it. The question is, why should women make 28% less when they are the best that money has to offer?
Start a thread about it and don't derail this one?
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
Really? Because the last I checked Islam has the Tafsir to provide exegesis of the Qu'ran just as Judaism has the Midrash to perform the same function for the Torah. Furthermore, you claim "Islam hasn't had such a reformation" yet the Qu'ran specifically states:
And as you can see here that includes "For citizens, they must obey the established authorities (e.g. the courts, the police, etc). They must obey the law of the land as long as it does not violate God's law."
Except all but the most moderate of Muslims don't follow it. It's not much of a "reform" if they don't. (You won't get that, but I am trying. It's just painful watching you flail about.)
Let's set aside that Ms. Ali is hardly a neutral author on topic. She's had an axe to grind with Islam for quite some time now. To the point where she is now the "go to pundit" for anything anti-Islam on conservative media. This again is yet another example of where your own source confirms my point.
I never said she was neutral, her dislike for conservative (let alone radical) Islam is as strong as mine. She's a liberal Muslim and understands the culture involved, unlike you. Until a true reform gains momentum in the Middle Eastern mainstream, we won't see peace.
The point of contention here is whether or not there is something specific to Islam that makes it incompatible with modern society. You cited passages from the Qu'ran as "evidence" of your contention. But I rebutted that by pointing out that there are passages from the ancient scriptures of all three Abrahamic religions that are incompatible with modern society. So then the question becomes why do you have such a hard-on for Muslims about it? Especially when I also pointed out that WRT such passages the vast majority of Muslims "don't take it seriously" just like the vast majority of Jews and Christians? But you respond to that with a book that has this in its description ...
"But, but, a lot of Muslims don't!!!" You don't say? Christians and Jews aren't committing 100s of terror attacks all over the world, Muslims are. None of your rhetoric changes that. Jews and Christians get along with Western Culture, they've been liberalised to fit with modern values (or more precisely, modern values came from the most progressive voices within the Christian and Jewish faiths), vast segments of Islam have not. Until its clerics stop teaching that killing gays "is merciful", that they're evil and should die, none of this will end.
The author you are citing is making the point of contrasting the "majority of observant but peaceable Muslims" with the "minority of extremists". So WTF are you once again you try to "rebut" my position with something that's saying the same damned thing!
IT'S NOT A MINORITY OF EXTREMISTS, get it through your f***ing skull. It's the conservative, and even moderate, imams preaching dangerous, ignorant ideology from positions of authority to impressionable, or worse, unbalanced minds (something the author is direct about, which you'd know if you'd read the book, rather than guessing or going by someone else's review). Seriously, the fact you and your ilk can't see this is almost unimaginable. No doubt that's why we're in the position we are today.
In this instance a cleric visited a mosque in Orlando and in his message he stated, "Homosexuals are filth, they're evil, and their only hope is death. Death is the sentence, it is the only way." Then months later a young man who heard that imam murdered 49 people in a nightclub. That's the danger; not the 500 others who attended and did nothing, but the 1 who was already on the edge and was pulled over it.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
I'll deal with this in detail tomorrow because I just finished watching the Cavs force a Game 7 in the NBA Finals so now I'm about to hit the sack. But for now I'll make this point.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
I never said she was neutral, her dislike for conservative (let alone radical) Islam is as strong as mine. She's a liberal Muslim and understands the culture involved, unlike you. Until a true reform gains momentum in the Middle Eastern mainstream, we won't see peace.
And this right here is precisely why I continue to say that just like Trump you speak utter BS with confidence.
She has said that her personal views have been derived from her change from Islam to atheism. Hirsi Ali is very critical of Islam, especially of the writings of its prophet Muhammad and the cultural position of women within many Islamic societies.
Yet you wonder why I and so many others around here think you are completely full of sh*t.
And to be honest ... I suppose most of the same wonder why I even bother to engage with someone who is so easily disproven yet will never under any circumstances acknowledge when he is just plain wrong despite all evidence staring him right in the face.
Stunning, really. She still considered herself to be a liberal Muslim (at least she was when that book was published), despite the fact she no longer believed in God, because it's also an ethnicity and she was, and probably still is to some degree, connected to it.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
Except all but the most moderate of Muslims don't follow it. It's not much of a "reform" if they don't. (You won't get that, but I am trying. It's just painful watching you flail about.)
That which is perfect/pure cannot be reformed. Another problem with "reforming" Islam is it will be necessary to repudiate Mohammed. (hell-fire be upon him) He is held up as the "model Muslim" who's life all Muslims should emulate.
In this instance a cleric visited a mosque in Orlando and in his message he stated, "Homosexuals are filth, they're evil, and their only hope is death. Death is the sentence, it is the only way." Then months later a young man who heard that imam murdered 49 people in a nightclub. That's the danger; not the 500 others who attended and did nothing, but the 1 who was already on the edge and was pulled over it.
Stunning, really. She still considered herself to be a liberal Muslim (at least she was when that book was published), despite the fact she no longer believed in God, because it's also an ethnicity and she was, and probably still is to some degree, connected to it.
OMG you will just say anything rather than just admit when you are just unequivocally wrong!
First of all Islam is a worldwide religion. There is no such thing as an ethnic group called "Muslim". Her ethnic group is Somali and she's an atheist. The late Muhammad Ali's ethnic group is African-American and he was a Muslim. The ethnic group that suffered ethnic cleansing and genocide during the Bosnian war are Bosniaks and they are overwhelmingly Muslim. The largest ethnic group in Indonesia are the Javanese and the majority of them are Muslim. Yet ethnically these people have nothing in common.
Furthermore, the book you cited was published in 2015. Yet this is what we know about Ayaan Hirsi Ali ...
She renounced Islam and became an atheist in 2002.[28] She began to formulate her critique of Islam and Islamic culture, published many articles on these topics, and became a frequent speaker on television news programs and in public debate forums. She discussed her ideas at length in a book entitled De Zoontjesfabriek (The Son Factory) (2002). In this period, she first began to receive death threats.[28]
This woman is NOT a liberal Muslim by any stretch of the imagination.. She has been a self-avowed atheist for 14 years! Moving on ...
You Islamic apologists are mental.
The Middle East is run by warlords, thanks to Islam, wealthy sheiks who do what they want, when they want, with no concern for consequences (because Islamic law is on their side), it's a Theocratic feudal system with only token observance given to democracy, and not even that in the wealthiest countries. Those clerics and warlords created this system long before anyone from the West started playing politics with them, and when oil became so important, it added incalculable wealth to an already toxic, primitive political system. The #1 thing we can do to stem the tide is to break our dependence on their oil and cut into the $$ they use to fund the spread of Islam and global Jihad. I've never said I want to destroy Islam, many times on this forum I've expressed that it needs a Reformation, and update for modern times and a far more liberal world view, and until that happens, we will be at odds with even their mainstream (let alone their much more radical elements).
Your ignorance is breathtaking, truly top notch. That can be rectified, though. Read this: 
She still considered herself to be a liberal Muslim (at least she was when that book was published), despite the fact she no longer believed in God, because it's also an ethnicity and she was, and probably still is to some degree, connected to it.
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