Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Police discrimination, misconduct, Ferguson, MO, the Roman Legion, and now math???

Police discrimination, misconduct, Ferguson, MO, the Roman Legion, and now math??? (Page 37)
Thread Tools
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 26, 2015, 04:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
Who did Darren Wilson try and convict? He was attacked.
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
A. That's a gray area
B. When you use deadly force on someone, you become judge, jury, and executioner
I think at the end of the day what this comes down to is the difference between the Court of Public Opinion and the Court of Law. Police officers inherently have a lot of latitude in the latter. Consequently, in the Court of Public Opinion Darren Wilson has to prove the veracity of his account of shooting of an unarmed Mike Brown ... especially to the legitimately skeptical black community. Whereas in the Court of Law the witness accounts and physical evidence have to disprove Darren Wilson's account because as a police officer he's given more than his fair share of the benefit of the doubt.

Again, Mike Brown was shot once at the SUV. Possibly grazed on the arm as he fled over 180 feet away in fear for his life. And then he decided to turn around and charge at Darren Wilson through a hail of bullets like he was "Super Negro" or something. According to Darren Wilson. And I ... like most black people and a whole lot of non-black people as well ... call BS when yet another white cop's account of his killing of an unarmed black man is ultimately predicated upon downright irrational/suicidal behavior on the part of the dead black dude. And that, of course, is squarely in the Court of Public Opinion. The Court of Public Opinion also says that an eyewitness clearly stating that "He had his f*cking hands in the air!" in a contemporaneous video taken SECONDS after the shooting at least warrants a trial by jury ... even if the end result would likely be the same.



You know that whole "excited utterance" thing and what not ....

Under the Federal Rules of Evidence, an excited utterance is a hearsay exception, and is admissible to prove the truth of the statement itself (e.g., in the case of the first quotation above, to prove that the vehicle the declarant was riding in was, in fact, about to crash). To prove the truth of the statement means to persuade the finder of fact to believe the affirmative sense of the statement. "Truth" here does not mean truth from the subjective point of view of the declarant or from the objective point of view of a reasonably prudent person. It simply refers to the affirmative assertion of the statement.
Unfortunately, in the Court of Law subsequent statements given to investigators over 5-6 interviews can lead to this as outlined in the DOJ report ...

Witness 122 has no criminal history. As detailed above, material portions of Witness 122’s accounts are irreconcilable with the physical and forensic evidence. These accounts are also inconsistent with each other and inconsistent with credible witness accounts. Accordingly, after a thorough review of all of the evidence, federal prosecutors determined this witness’s accounts not to be credible and therefore do not support a prosecution of Darren Wilson.
So what did Witness 122 in?

- He said he thought Mike Brown was "shot in the back" as he fled. The autopsy results said otherwise. But as I indicated much earlier in the thread "shot in the back" is a figure of speech that people use when someone is fleeing and they appear to be "shot from behind". This witness and others said that Mike Brown flinched "as if he had been hit" and that's when he stopped and turned around. The bullet didn't hit his back but it could have grazed his arm. The autopsy showed a flesh wound on the side of Mike Brown's arm but it was inconclusive on whether or not he was facing or fleeing Darren Wilson when struck. But the Court of Law takes the statement "shot in the back" literally and therefore dismisses his account.

- He said Mike Brown said "Ok! Ok!" as he stopped and turned around. No other witnesses heard that.

- He said Mike Brown continued to stumble toward Darren Wilson about 20-25 feet after the final shot before collapsing on the ground. Medical examiners state that the final shot to the top of Mike Brown's head would have rendered him immediately dead and immobile. He then later admitted that he did not even see Brown fall to the ground.

- He said there were 3 officers present at the scene. But Darren Wilson was alone when the shooting occurred.

Now in my view these subsequent statements are simply the mind's attempt to "fill in the blanks" and construct a narrative around what he saw. Or to "get his story straight" with the other contractor Witness 130. But the bottom line in my view is that just because he was clearly incorrect about 3 officers being present and Mike Brown continuing to stumble forward after the final shots in statements made to investigators after the fact ... that doesn't automatically negate the excited utterance he made about Mike Brown having his hands in the air in the moment. Unless, of course, one thinks he just outright lied or exclaimed a complete figment of his imagination seconds after the shooting completely unaware he was being captured on video. You know ... just because.

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Mar 26, 2015 at 04:57 PM. )
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 26, 2015, 04:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm not sure how I feel about the policy, but I note, between the Brown and Garner case, I personally only know the name of the cop in the Brown case, i.e. the less guilty cop.
His name is Daniel Pantaleo. It's mentioned earlier in the thread. But given the flood of cases being discussed in this thread ... which is indicative of the extent of the problem ... it would not at all be surprising if you missed it.

OAW
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 26, 2015, 04:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Of course they are murder homicide victims, the only question is whether the events that led to the death were unlawful or not.
Not trying to be pedantic because I absolutely get your point. But before this gets twisted I thought I'd make this small correction because "homicide" is a neutral, "statement of fact" kind of term. What makes a given "homicide" a "murder" is the judgement made in a court of law as to whether it was "unlawful or not".

OAW
     
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 26, 2015, 05:08 PM
 
Again, it isn't the media's place to assassinate the character of an officer based on hearsay and public reaction. Once the facts of a case come out (within a reasonable period of time, say 60-90 days), sure, release the LEO's identity, but until then let the investigation take place. Whipping up a mob doesn't benefit anything or anyone, neither the officer nor the alleged perp, all it does is satisfy society's gross need to assign blame and then tear a potentially blameless officer down, who very likely was just doing his/her job.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 26, 2015, 06:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Not trying to be pedantic because I absolutely get your point. But before this gets twisted I thought I'd make this small correction because "homicide" is a neutral, "statement of fact" kind of term. What makes a given "homicide" a "murder" is the judgement made in a court of law as to whether it was "unlawful or not".
Good point, thanks for the correction (especially since I wanted to make exactly this distinction).
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 26, 2015, 07:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
His name is Daniel Pantaleo. It's mentioned earlier in the thread. But given the flood of cases being discussed in this thread ... which is indicative of the extent of the problem ... it would not at all be surprising if you missed it.

OAW
Oh... I'm not claiming it isn't available, but exactly what you state: it's missable, relatively speaking.

To miss Darren Wilson's name though, you'd need to live under the proverbial rock.
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 26, 2015, 07:35 PM
 
^^^

Indeed.

OAW
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 28, 2015, 02:20 PM
 
This is the type of ignorant sh*t that makes me downright embarrassed to be from STL.

Black ex-Cardinals player punched, told to ‘go back to Ferguson’ at St. Louis gas station | WashingtonPost.com

Question about Mike Brown leads to beating in St. Louis - CNN.com

OAW

PS: The good news is these knuckleheads will be in jail shortly.
( Last edited by OAW; Mar 28, 2015 at 03:06 PM. )
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 30, 2015, 10:57 AM
 
In light of the revelation in the DOJ report that 95% of the people cited for jaywalking in Ferguson were black ....

The New York teens thought the officers were there to check on their well being considering they had both been hit by a car while trying to cross the street but it turns out that as the teens were in the hospital being checked by doctors, the cops were there to give them both jaywalking tickets.

According to the New York Post, Beanca Moise and Jo-Anna Thiboutot, both 16, were given jaywalking tickets as they lay in the Kings County Hospital Center on March 14, because they reportedly attempted to cross a Brooklyn street mid-block when a car struck them. The driver was not issued a citation because, according to a witness who spoke to the police, the driver had the right of way.

"It was very insulting," Moise told the Post. "I got hit by a car, and they came to the hospital not even checking if I was okay, and just gave us the ticket."

According to the cops who spoke with the Post, the citations issued to the teens were mandatory given Mayor Bill de Blasio's new "Vision Zero" initiative, which attempts to crackdown on reckless drivers and pedestrians in hopes of stopping traffic death and injuries.

[There is] "no such thing as a 'zero tolerance' policy on jaywalking," Wiley Norvell, a spokesman for City Hall, told Gothamist. "Enforcement decisions are made precinct by precinct as commanding officers see fit, based on conditions they see on the ground," he said.

Both teen's suffered deep bruises and bone contusions. Moise remains on crutches some weeks after being hit. Both of the teen's parents have hired a lawyer and plan to fight the summons and sue the driver according to the Post.
NYC Cops Hand Deliver Jaywalking Tickets to 2 Teens Hit by Car - The Root

OAW
     
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 30, 2015, 11:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
In light of the revelation in the DOJ report that 95% of the people cited for jaywalking in Ferguson were black ....
Aren't ~3/4 of the people living there black? I mean, it's not like only 20% of the population is African American and they're getting 95% of the jaywalking tickets, is it?
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 30, 2015, 06:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Aren't ~3/4 of the people living there black?
No, going by the numbers of the 2010 census about 2/3 of Ferguson's population is black.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I mean, it's not like only 20% of the population is African American and they're getting 95% of the jaywalking tickets, is it?
African Americans are still significantly overrepresented in every respect when it comes to law enforcement activities. In your example, African Americans are 44 % more likely to receive jay walking tickets — and that's very much significant. And these stupid minor offenses contributed in a major way to arrest warrants for the majority of the population.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 30, 2015, 09:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
No, going by the numbers of the 2010 census about 2/3 of Ferguson's population is black.
Must have increased since then (entirely plausible, 5 years is substantial), because CNN was claiming 3/4.

African Americans are still significantly overrepresented in every respect when it comes to law enforcement activities. In your example, African Americans are 44 % more likely to receive jay walking tickets — and that's very much significant. And these stupid minor offenses contributed in a major way to arrest warrants for the majority of the population.
I think, in large part, it's due to very poor city planning and they have fewer sidewalks in their neighborhoods. Someone around here said something about that a while back.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 30, 2015, 09:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Must have increased since then (entirely plausible, 5 years is substantial), because CNN was claiming 3/4.
I've only heard the 67 % figure. Be that as it may, even with 75 %, you're much more likely to get stopped if you're black.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I think, in large part, it's due to very poor city planning and they have fewer sidewalks in their neighborhoods. Someone around here said something about that a while back.
That's not really borne out by the evidence, because it's not just jaywalking. If you have a look at the finding of the DOJ, it's quite clear that there is a strong racial bias.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 01:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I've only heard the 67 % figure. Be that as it may, even with 75 %, you're much more likely to get stopped if you're black.
Especially if it's a mostly black community.

That's not really borne out by the evidence, because it's not just jaywalking. If you have a look at the finding of the DOJ, it's quite clear that there is a strong racial bias.
It just seems to me to be intellectually lazy to blame it all on a strong racial bias, especially in a place where even black cops are proportionately ticketing far more blacks than whites. Are they guilty of being racist against their own race?
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 08:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Especially if it's a mostly black community.
No, you're conflating two things: the fact that the majority of the population is black and how often black citizens of Ferguson are stopped. So if 2/3 of the population is black and 2/3 of all the minor tickets (e. g. jay walking, minor traffic violations, etc.) are given to African American citizens, then the probability of a black person to be stopped in Ferguson is the same as that of a non-black person. So while the number of persons who got a ticket and are black is higher in that case, the probability is the same as for non-white people. What I'm saying (and the DOJ is strongly criticizing) is that blacks are much more likely to be stopped, much higher than their share of populations.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
It just seems to me to be intellectually lazy to blame it all on a strong racial bias, especially in a place where even black cops are proportionately ticketing far more blacks than whites.
It's not intellectually lazy at all, the facts clearly back up a strong racial bias against blacks. (Going on a fact finding mission and quantifying inequality is the opposite of intellectual laziness.) How can you deny the numbers in the DOJ's report on Ferguson in particular and other, comparable statistics?
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Are they guilty of being racist against their own race?
Yes. But the Furgeson PD has very, very few black cops to begin with, so I think you won't even be able to make a statistically sound statement.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 08:57 AM
 
We're back to pretending cops aren't racists?
     
Chongo
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 09:16 AM
 
All, most, or some?
45/47
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 09:19 AM
 
The ones writing the jaywalking tickets.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 09:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
We're back to pretending cops aren't racists?
That's a bit too simplistic, and works against what you're arguing for: there is clear statistical evidence that there is a significant racial bias in policing (not just minor offenses) and for institutional racism. And while I think some cops are racist, I think it's unfair to make such a blanket statement. The fact that there is institutional racism makes it worse, because it extends beyond the individual.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 09:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
That's a bit too simplistic, and works against what you're arguing for: there is clear statistical evidence that there is a significant racial bias in policing (not just minor offenses) and for institutional racism. And while I think some cops are racist, I think it's unfair to make such a blanket statement. The fact that there is institutional racism makes it worse, because it extends beyond the individual.
You're right, the system isn't biased.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 11:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
No, you're conflating two things: the fact that the majority of the population is black and how often black citizens of Ferguson are stopped. So if 2/3 of the population is black and 2/3 of all the minor tickets (e. g. jay walking, minor traffic violations, etc.) are given to African American citizens, then the probability of a black person to be stopped in Ferguson is the same as that of a non-black person. So while the number of persons who got a ticket and are black is higher in that case, the probability is the same as for non-white people. What I'm saying (and the DOJ is strongly criticizing) is that blacks are much more likely to be stopped, much higher than their share of populations.

It's not intellectually lazy at all, the facts clearly back up a strong racial bias against blacks. (Going on a fact finding mission and quantifying inequality is the opposite of intellectual laziness.) How can you deny the numbers in the DOJ's report on Ferguson in particular and other, comparable statistics?

Yes. But the Furgeson PD has very, very few black cops to begin with, so I think you won't even be able to make a statistically sound statement.
I trust the DOJ as far as I can throw Eric Holder. The bulk of the situation with all the tickets is forced revenue generation, not racism. They know people are walking the streets in those residential areas, because they have little choice, but they keep doing it to raise their ticket quotas because it's like shooting fish in a barrel, it's essentially the same as placing a 25 MPH speed zone (trap) right off of a four-lane. Again, mass racism is an intellectually lazy argument and doesn't address other important issues in every major US city (including STL), like citations erroneously being used as a vital source of a city's revenue generation.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 11:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
The ones writing the jaywalking tickets.
because their bosses tell them to write them or they'll lose their jobs, those tickets?
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 11:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
because their bosses tell them to write them or they'll lose their jobs, those tickets?
Oreo and i have already amended the statement for accuracy.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 11:35 AM
 
Most issues in this aren't associated with some form of mass racism.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 11:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I trust the DOJ as far as I can throw Eric Holder. The bulk of the situation with all the tickets is forced revenue generation, not racism. They know people are walking the streets in those residential areas, because they have little choice, but they keep doing it to raise their ticket quotas because it's like shooting fish in a barrel, it's essentially the same as placing a 25 MPH speed zone (trap) right off of a four-lane. Again, mass racism is an intellectually lazy argument and doesn't address other important issues in every major US city (including STL), like citations erroneously being used as a vital source of a city's revenue generation.
You're right that the city of Ferguson is one among many who use tickets as a sizable source of revenue, but that doesn't change the fact that African Americans are unfairly participating in that “privilege”. These are two separate issues that only intersect in as much as that there exists racial bias in how these “ticket taxes” are levied. You base your “intellectual laziness argument” on nothing while the DOJ investigation on the other hand quantifies the amount of institutional racism. It's intellectual laziness from your end if you make an accusation but not back it up with facts.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 11:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
You're right that the city of Ferguson is one among many who use tickets as a sizable source of revenue, but that doesn't change the fact that African Americans are unfairly participating in that “privilege”. These are two separate issues that only intersect in as much as that there exists racial bias in how these “ticket taxes” are levied. You base your “intellectual laziness argument” on nothing while the DOJ investigation on the other hand quantifies the amount of institutional racism. It's intellectual laziness from your end if you make an accusation but not back it up with facts.
The police are focusing on blacks because their communities allow for easier generation, thus representing the path of least resistance to meeting their absurd quotas. It really is that simple, no nefarious, racist intentions required.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 12:03 PM
 
But isn't part of the reason their communities offer 'less resistance' because minorities are typically disenfranchised?
     
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 12:26 PM
 
Those areas are densely packed, allowing for a maximum amount of people to live in a minimal amount of space, while taking up the least amount of resources. While that's surely a case of poor city planning, it impacts anyone who might live there, not just minorities.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 12:28 PM
 
Your 'less resistance' is a reference to population density and city panning?
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 12:54 PM
 
What we have been witnessing over the last several posts is the abject denial that is so ingrained in America when it comes to the realities of institutionalized racism and implicit bias in this country. You can point out all the statistics regarding ticketing in Ferguson and other STL County municipalities and how they disproportionately impact black people. You can point out a decade's worth of Driving While Black statistics across the entire state of Missouri which clearly show it's not some sort of mass hallucination on the part of the black residents. You can point out statistics showing how study after study shows that mortgage or car loan applications submitted by blacks and whites with identical incomes and credit scores routinely result in higher interest rates for black applicants or outright denials that aren't the case for their white counterparts. You can cite statistics which show that resumes submitted for job openings with "ethnic" sounding names like Tyrone, Malik, Jose, and Aisha are significantly less likely to get a callback than the exact same resume submitted with a name like John, Steven, Adam, or Amber. You can point out all the statistics showing how black people use marijuana at the same rate as white people but are four times more likely to be arrested for it. Etc. Etc. Etc.

And some people will STILL have more excuses than a hooker in church for why all of these realities exist simultaneously ... rather than simply acknowledge the obvious!

OAW
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 12:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
The police are focusing on blacks because their communities allow for easier generation, thus representing the path of least resistance to meeting their absurd quotas. It really is that simple, no nefarious, racist intentions required.
I have the impression you're trying really hard to find an explanation that excludes racism. It's really mind boggling to me how you can convince yourself that racism is not a major factor here. You purposefully ignore statistics, racist quotes from court clerks and police offers in emails and other official documents — and offer no evidence of your own.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 01:14 PM
 
Yes, yes, OAW, I'm such denial (oh the irony). Sod off.

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Your 'less resistance' is a reference to population density and city panning?
Yep. Say you're a fisherman and you want to catch as many as possible in a short period of time, are you going to drag your net in an area with a higher or lower concentration of fish?

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I have the impression you're trying really hard to find an explanation that excludes racism. It's really mind boggling to me how you can convince yourself that racism is not a major factor here. You purposefully ignore statistics, racist quotes from court clerks and police offers in emails and other official documents — and offer no evidence of your own.
It's boggling to me how some people have trained themselves to see racism in nearly anything, it's like talking with a 3rd wave feminist about their perceptions of the "patriarchy". Does racism exist? Absolutely. Is it as most in the media and SJWs want everyone to believe? No.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 01:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Yep. Say you're a fisherman and you want to catch as many as possible in a short period of time, are you going to drag your net in an area with a higher or lower concentration of fish?
In this case, the higher concentration of fish happens to be in an aquarium.

Amazing how most of the white people in Ferguson seem to have dodged the pop density and urban planning problems. Of course, I'm sure you've studied the layout and demographics of the town and are speaking from first-hand knowledge and not pure speculation.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 01:36 PM
 
     
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 02:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
In this case, the higher concentration of fish happens to be in an aquarium.

Amazing how most of the white people in Ferguson seem to have dodged the pop density and urban planning problems. Of course, I'm sure you've studied the layout and demographics of the town and are speaking from first-hand knowledge and not pure speculation.
Urban centers = large aquariums? Good analogy.

Sarcasm... Anyhow, if American cities didn't enforce mandatory ticket quotas, or fashion their budgets to include an expected amount of revenue generation from citations, we wouldn't see any of this happening. Note NYC when cops recently just decided to stop writing frivolous tickets, the metropolitan gov't almost reached financial collapse.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Chongo
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 02:10 PM
 
Motorcycle cops get real busy at the end off the month, same as the Highway Patrol. They need to make sure sure they hit their quota of speeding tickets.
45/47
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 02:29 PM
 
And this is precisely what I'm talking about ....

Originally Posted by OAW
What we have been witnessing over the last several posts is the abject denial that is so ingrained in America when it comes to the realities of institutionalized racism and implicit bias in this country. You can point out all the statistics regarding ticketing in Ferguson and other STL County municipalities and how they disproportionately impact black people ..... [see above]
Originally Posted by OreoCookie
I have the impression you're trying really hard to find an explanation that excludes racism. It's really mind boggling to me how you can convince yourself that racism is not a major factor here. You purposefully ignore statistics, racist quotes from court clerks and police offers in emails and other official documents — and offer no evidence of your own.
Followed by ...

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
It's boggling to me how some people have trained themselves to see racism in nearly anything, it's like talking with a 3rd wave feminist about their perceptions of the "patriarchy". Does racism exist? Absolutely. Is it as most in the media and SJWs want everyone to believe? No.
For such individuals ... of course racism exists. It's an "acknowledgement" in only in the most generic and platitudinal sense of the term. But when faced with specific, concrete examples of such institutionalized racism ... DISMISSAL rather than REBUTTAL is the order of the day. The actual "intellectual laziness" comes to play by merely dismissing legitimate issues backed by facts and evidence as just "seeing racism in nearly anything" ... rather than actually producing a competent rebuttal to things like this ....

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar
Amazing how most of the white people in Ferguson seem to have dodged the pop density and urban planning problems. Of course, I'm sure you've studied the layout and demographics of the town and are speaking from first-hand knowledge and not pure speculation.
But for some people I suppose that's just par for the course. Just saying ...

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Mar 31, 2015 at 02:43 PM. )
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 07:00 PM
 
We'll see if this makes a difference on the cocaine possession charge he's still facing ....

Black Man Beaten by Mich. Police, Floyd Dent, Passes Lie Detector Test - NBC News

OAW
     
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 07:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
For such individuals ... of course racism exists. It's an "acknowledgement" in only in the most generic and platitudinal sense of the term. But when faced with specific, concrete examples of such institutionalized racism ... DISMISSAL rather than REBUTTAL is the order of the day. The actual "intellectual laziness" comes to play by merely dismissing legitimate issues backed by facts and evidence as just "seeing racism in nearly anything" ... rather than actually producing a competent rebuttal to things like this ....
"Competent rebuttal", when I'd already countered it? It's pretty easy not to get charged with jaywalking when you don't have to walk on the street, like people in overpacked communities do.

But for some people I suppose that's just par for the course. Just saying ...
I think the very same thing when I see your posts.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 08:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
"Competent rebuttal", when I'd already countered it? It's pretty easy not to get charged with jaywalking when you don't have to walk on the street, like people in overpacked communities do.
Already countered it? Where exactly? Allow me to once again refresh your memory about where the point of contention lies ...

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar
Amazing how most of the white people in Ferguson seem to have dodged the pop density and urban planning problems. Of course, I'm sure you've studied the layout and demographics of the town and are speaking from first-hand knowledge and not pure speculation.
So given the racial composition of the area in question which looks like this ...



For starters, while St. Louis is indeed among the most segregated metropolitan regions in the United States, Ferguson and some of its North County neighbors are among the most racially integrated municipalities in Missouri and well beyond.
Is segregation the problem in Ferguson? - The Washington Post

Why exactly are the white residents of Ferguson far less likely and the black residents of Ferguson far more likely to be ticketed for jaywalking when that map above clearly shows that they are all walking the same damned streets?

Perhaps you are under the impression that Ferguson which is a suburb (an older one but a suburb nonetheless) is some sort of "overpacked" inner-city ghetto because it's predominantly black?

Again ... I live in STL. Not very far from Ferguson. In fact, I was just in Ferguson the weekend before last having drinks with friends. Drove right past the peaceful protests still ongoing outside the Ferguson police station. Honked at them in solidarity. Drove past the ice cream shop inside an old train car that sits right next to the still active railroad. Past the farmer's market. Past the brand new condos. Started the night off in a craft brewhouse and ended up in a wine bar across the street. So unlike you ... I KNOW the area. I have that "first-hand knowledge" that Dakar was speaking about ... and not that rank "speculation" passed off as yet another area of supposed "expertise" that you are so inclined to do. So again .... just so we are all on the same page here ... where exactly did you providence evidence to support this statement that supposedly "countered" Dakar's statement? .....

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
I think, in large part, it's due to very poor city planning and they have fewer sidewalks in their neighborhoods. Someone around here said something about that a while back.
I'll wait ....

Now it's altogether possible that you are referring to me because I did post a case in Florida where a lady was tasered for inquiring about why several young black males were being detained ... and the "official" reason was jaywalking in their own neighborhood that literally had no sidewalks. It was clearly visible on the video. But we are talking about Ferguson here. Then again, it's more probable that this is yet another instance of you passing off your opinion as fact. So I'm sure we'd all like to see what evidence you have to conclude that Ferguson has a shortage of sidewalks in those black neighborhoods that white people live in too?

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Mar 31, 2015 at 09:04 PM. )
     
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 09:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Already countered it? Where exactly? Allow me to once again refresh your memory about where the point of contention lies ...

So given the racial composition of the area in question which looks like this ...



Is segregation the problem in Ferguson? - The Washington Post

Why exactly are the white residents of Ferguson far less likely and the black residents of Ferguson far more likely to be ticketed for jaywalking when that map above clearly shows that they are all walking the same damned streets?

Perhaps you are under the impression that Ferguson which is a suburb (an older one but a suburb nonetheless) is some sort of "overpacked" inner-city ghetto because it's predominantly black?

Again ... I live in STL. Not very far from Ferguson. In fact, I was just in Ferguson the weekend before last having drinks with friends. Drove right past the peaceful protests still ongoing outside the Ferguson police station. Honked at them in solidarity. Drove past the ice cream shop inside an old train car that sits right next to the still active railroad. Past the farmer's market. Past the brand new condos. Started the night off in a craft brewhouse and ended up in a wine bar across the street. So unlike you ... I KNOW the area. I have that "first-hand knowledge" that Dakar was speaking about ... and not that rank "speculation" passed off as yet another area of supposed "expertise" that you are so inclined to do. So again .... just so we are all on the same page here ... where exactly did you providence evidence to support this statement that supposedly "countered" Dakar's statement? .....

I'll wait ....

Now it's altogether possible that you are referring to me because I did post a case in Florida where a lady was tasered for inquiring about why several young black males were being detained ... and the "official" reason was jaywalking in their own neighborhood that literally had no sidewalks. It was clearly visible on the video. But we are talking about Ferguson here. Then again, it's more probable that this is yet another instance of you passing off your opinion as fact. So I'm sure we'd all like to see what evidence you have to conclude that Ferguson has a shortage of sidewalks in those black neighborhoods that white people live in too?
You can sit and wait all you want, even your own picture shows that what appears to be the black residential area in Ferguson is more tightly packed than the others around it. None of that discounts what I've said at all.

Then again, it's more probable that this is yet another instance of you passing off your opinion as fact.
Boo-hoo. The irony is rich there.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 10:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
You can sit and wait all you want, even your own picture shows that what appears to be the black residential area in Ferguson is more tightly packed than the others around it. None of that discounts what I've said at all.
You mean the neighborhood on the east side of Ferguson with all the white dots interspersed throughout? The one filled with apartment complexes ... hence why it's more densely populated ... complete with sidewalks like the Canfield Green apartments where Mike Brown was killed? That part of Ferguson? Ok. So instead of moving the goalposts ... how about you produce your evidence supporting your contention that that particular area has "fewer sidewalks" than others? Oh wait ... you can't?



OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Mar 31, 2015 at 10:35 PM. )
     
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 31, 2015, 11:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
You mean the neighborhood on the east side of Ferguson with all the white dots interspersed throughout? The one filled with apartment complexes ... hence why it's more densely populated ... complete with sidewalks like the Canfield Green apartments where Mike Brown was killed? That part of Ferguson? Ok. So instead of moving the goalposts ... how about you produce your evidence supporting your contention that that particular area has "fewer sidewalks" than others? Oh wait ... you can't?


I honestly don't believe you know what the phrase "moving the goalposts" means, as I didn't do any such thing in that post. Again, whether it's apartments or not, there is still very high concentration of people living there, and more people will equal more opportunities to ticket for trivial shit (especially when citation quotas exist).
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 1, 2015, 12:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I honestly don't believe you know what the phrase "moving the goalposts" means, as I didn't do any such thing in that post. Again, whether it's apartments or not, there is still very high concentration of people living there, and more people will equal more opportunities to ticket for trivial shit (especially when citation quotas exist).
Actually I know exactly what it means. You see it all started off like this ....

Originally Posted by OreoCookie
African Americans are still significantly overrepresented in every respect when it comes to law enforcement activities. In your example, African Americans are 44 % more likely to receive jay walking tickets — and that's very much significant. And these stupid minor offenses contributed in a major way to arrest warrants for the majority of the population.
And the FIRST THING you said ... which I'll refer to as Statement A ... was this:

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
I think, in large part, it's due to very poor city planning and they have fewer sidewalks in their neighborhoods. Someone around here said something about that a while back.
Then as Oreo and Dakar pushed back on this you doubled down on the "fewer sidewalks" argument in Statement A with this:

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
The bulk of the situation with all the tickets is forced revenue generation, not racism. They know people are walking the streets in those residential areas, because they have little choice, but they keep doing it to raise their ticket quotas because it's like shooting fish in a barrel, it's essentially the same as placing a 25 MPH speed zone (trap) right off of a four-lane.
BUT ... this was also when you started to make the "transition" to the separate argument of revenue generation ... which I'll refer to as Statement B. Perhaps you thought no one would notice? In any event, Oreo and Dakar continued to push back and you responded by reiterating Statement B:

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
The police are focusing on blacks because their communities allow for easier generation, thus representing the path of least resistance to meeting their absurd quotas. It really is that simple, no nefarious, racist intentions required.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
]Those areas are densely packed, allowing for a maximum amount of people to live in a minimal amount of space, while taking up the least amount of resources. While that's surely a case of poor city planning, it impacts anyone who might live there, not just minorities.
And that's when I chimed in and noted that you were in denial. We went back and forth and I repeatedly made it abundantly clear that the FIRST point of contention was Statement A ... and then true to form you sat here and tried to pretend like you never said it. As if your argument has only ever been Statement B from the very beginning. But hey ... that's just how you roll. When challenged on Statement A which was all about "fewer sidewalks" in the black neighborhoods ... you simply regurgitated Statement B which was all about the black neighborhoods being more "densely packed" areas. Yeah ... that's called "moving the goalposts". All day everyday. And my point remains ... you still haven't provided a scintilla of evidence to back up Statement A.

But wait it gets worse!

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar
Amazing how most of the white people in Ferguson seem to have dodged the pop density and urban planning problems. Of course, I'm sure you've studied the layout and demographics of the town and are speaking from first-hand knowledge and not pure speculation.
Even Statement B doesn't withstand scrutiny because the most "densely packed" area in Ferguson ... like the city itself ... is very integrated as the map shows. Anyone can zoom in on it and see this for themselves. Yet white people are 33% of the population but only 5% of the jaywalking tickets. Whereas black people are 67% of the population but receive 95% of the jaywalking tickets. On the same streets! And you have yet to provide any non-racial explanation for this reality either. Imagine that.

The analysis shows that in the STL metro area it's predominantly black, lower income areas where you see this "pimping the population for revenue" phenomenon. Ferguson is by no means alone in this regard. It's practically unheard of in more affluent, predominantly white areas. You know ... where the vast majority of the money is at. Like Ladue in west STL county ... one of the wealthiest suburbs in the country. A municipality that I can assure you actually does have a distinct lack of sidewalks (and street lights for that matter) in its residential areas. And you can best believe that the Ladue PD is not going around handing out jaywalking tickets to the little blonde, Lululemon yoga pants wearing "Real Housewives of STL" crowd pushing baby strollers up and down the winding hills of Ladue.

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Apr 1, 2015 at 01:36 AM. )
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 1, 2015, 12:25 PM
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Some people have no business being police officers.



Police abuse of Uber driver in New York City. In an unmarked car, the policeman was allegedly attempting to park without using his blinker at a green light. (His reverse lights weren't on. Likely double parked without hazards on.) The Uber driver pulled around and gestured that he should use his blinker, casually and non-offensively, and kept driving us. The policeman quickly pulls up behind us and this is what happens.

(This occurred just before 2pm on the West side of Manhattan, in police precinct 6, on March 30th, 2015. The officer did not identify himself, but he had a New York license plate: GSS 8891)
Video recorded and uploaded by one of the passengers.

OAW
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 1, 2015, 04:11 PM
 
     
Cap'n Tightpants
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Shaddim's sock drawer
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 2, 2015, 01:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Actually I know exactly what it means. You see it all started off like this ....

And the FIRST THING you said ... which I'll refer to as Statement A ... was this:

Then as Oreo and Dakar pushed back on this you doubled down on the "fewer sidewalks" argument in Statement A with this:

BUT ... this was also when you started to make the "transition" to the separate argument of revenue generation ... which I'll refer to as Statement B. Perhaps you thought no one would notice? In any event, Oreo and Dakar continued to push back and you responded by reiterating Statement B:


And that's when I chimed in and noted that you were in denial. We went back and forth and I repeatedly made it abundantly clear that the FIRST point of contention was Statement A ... and then true to form you sat here and tried to pretend like you never said it. As if your argument has only ever been Statement B from the very beginning. But hey ... that's just how you roll. When challenged on Statement A which was all about "fewer sidewalks" in the black neighborhoods ... you simply regurgitated Statement B which was all about the black neighborhoods being more "densely packed" areas. Yeah ... that's called "moving the goalposts". All day everyday. And my point remains ... you still haven't provided a scintilla of evidence to back up Statement A.

But wait it gets worse!

Even Statement B doesn't withstand scrutiny because the most "densely packed" area in Ferguson ... like the city itself ... is very integrated as the map shows. Anyone can zoom in on it and see this for themselves. Yet white people are 33% of the population but only 5% of the jaywalking tickets. Whereas black people are 67% of the population but receive 95% of the jaywalking tickets. On the same streets! And you have yet to provide any non-racial explanation for this reality either. Imagine that.

The analysis shows that in the STL metro area it's predominantly black, lower income areas where you see this "pimping the population for revenue" phenomenon. Ferguson is by no means alone in this regard. It's practically unheard of in more affluent, predominantly white areas. You know ... where the vast majority of the money is at. Like Ladue in west STL county ... one of the wealthiest suburbs in the country. A municipality that I can assure you actually does have a distinct lack of sidewalks (and street lights for that matter) in its residential areas. And you can best believe that the Ladue PD is not going around handing out jaywalking tickets to the little blonde, Lululemon yoga pants wearing "Real Housewives of STL" crowd pushing baby strollers up and down the winding hills of Ladue.
I didn't think you understood it, thanks.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 2, 2015, 09:47 AM
 
Source: NYPD detective from LI in Uber video rant - News 12 Long Island
A source says this is not the first time complaints have been made against Detective Cherry, adding that he has 34 charges against him in a total of 13 cases before the board.
13 cases. 1 video actually gets something done.
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 2, 2015, 03:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I didn't think you understood it, thanks.
We can always consult the dictionary ....

moving the goalposts - to change the basic rules or procedure while something is in progress to prevent an unfavorable outcome
Apparently you are of the opinion that your direct quotes don't really mean what they say. You started off arguing one thing about "fewer sidewalks in black neighborhoods" and then switched to something else when challenged on it because you can't back it up. If you could have you would have. Simple as that. So whatever dude.

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Apr 2, 2015 at 04:19 PM. )
     
Snow-i
Professional Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 2, 2015, 05:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Source: NYPD detective from LI in Uber video rant - News 12 Long Island

13 cases. 1 video actually gets something done.
It wasn't the video that got it done, either. It was the fact that people started paying attention to that one video. The NYPD wouldn't have done shit if they weren't afraid of the bad PR, video or not.
     
 
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:48 PM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,