[mattyd]

Between the new Windows "Start something" campaign and now this comment from Bill Gates...

"You can always tell if you're working on a Mac or a PC. Just take your applications and stick them in there and see if they run," he said, moments after calling Apple "the super-small market share guy."

...I'm starting to think that Microsoft might actually be getting nervous about Apple stealing market share.

Basically they're rehashing decade-old disinformation that "there's no software for Macs", an argument that's essentially irrelevant for 90% of computer users.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by mattyd

Between the new Windows "Start something" campaign and now this comment from Bill Gates...

"You can always tell if you're working on a Mac or a PC. Just take your applications and stick them in there and see if they run," he said, moments after calling Apple "the super-small market share guy."

...I'm starting to think that Microsoft might actually be getting nervous about Apple stealing market share.

Basically they're rehashing decade-old disinformation that "there's no software for Macs", an argument that's essentially irrelevant for 90% of computer users.

Gates was interviewed, and he was asked about Apple. His comments weren't unsolicited. He was simply answering the question.

As for market share, I'd say less than 5% is close to "super small".

Software-wise, there are so many more applications available to WIndows users. To claim that this is disinformation is wrong.. Maybe you're cool with the Mac software you need, but many in the (real) business world need applications developed for Windows - like businesses in the banking, retail, medical, restaurant, and industrial verticals. Applications for these markets are critical to the operations of those businesses. They couldn't care less about iTunes or GarageBand. They need applications to run their numerous, daily operations.

If the world was made up of all personal (home) computer users, I'd give you the benefit of the doubt. But that's nowhere near the case.

[James L]

Well, let's see:

1) In 2004, Gates was ranked 1st, richest man in the world, on Forbes list of billionaires with $46.6 billion dollars. Steve Jobs was ranked 262nd with $2.1 billion. I am sure you would see fairly similiar values in companies. WINNER: Gates

2) Windows market share versus Apple marketshare well documented. WINNER: Gates.

3) XBOX Marketshare climbing, with huge expectations for XBOX2. Apple's only attempt at the gaming market... Pippen. WINNER: Gates.

4) The fact that the vast majority of the computer users out there are essentially OS illiterate, don't really care which OS or computer they use, and that they buy machines from Best Buy like stores with OEM windows already installed. WINNER: Gates


... as much as we all love our Macs, and know how superior they are to a Windows box... BIlly doesn't have anything to worry about from Apple. If anything, Gates should be far more worried about the Linux open source market than Apple.

[mattyd]

I dunno. The overconfident hare that rests on his laurels can lose to the determined tortoise.

Determination - WINNER: Jobs
Smarts - WINNER: Jobs
Innovation - WINNER: Jobs
Style - WINNER: Jobs
Paranoia - TIE

This race is far from over.

[ManOfSteal]

I am scared of Apple, does that count?

[James L]

Originally Posted by ManOfSteal

I am scared of Apple, does that count?

Me too... not sure how much it counts for though.

p.s. I can't believe you are almost back up to 4000 posts already!

[willed]

Does that mean he's going to retire again?

ManofSteal, do you have any occupation other than Full-Time-'NN-Poster? I spend a fair amount of time here but as you can see it's taken me a while just to get to 2,300 posts.

[ManOfSteal]

Originally Posted by willed

Does that mean he's going to retire again?

ManofSteal, do you have any occupation other than Full-Time-'NN-Poster? I spend a fair amount of time here but as you can see it's taken me a while just to get to 2,300 posts.

40+ hour job/week....however, I have the liberty of being able to be on-line throughout the majority of the day at the office. Yeah, it is a perk.

[willed]

Somehow I knew you'd reply within 5 minutes

[Busemann]

Originally Posted by James L

Well, let's see:
3) XBOX Marketshare climbing, with huge expectations for XBOX2. Apple's only attempt at the gaming market... Pippen. WINNER: Gates.

Apple is apparently good enough to make Microsoft's next ambitions come to fruition.

[James L]

Originally Posted by Busemann

Apple is apparently good enough to make Microsoft's next ambitions come to fruition.

True, but that isn't the point of conversation. That Apple designs superior products isn't the case. They have always developed superior products, and they have continued to fall farther behind M$ in marketshare over the last 20 years.

Does Billy get mad that Apple's OS is better than his and cry into his pillow at night? Maybe.

Is Apple a financial or business risk to M$... to the point that they are getting scared? I highly doubt it.

[Zimphire]

Then why are they getting scared?

[Xeo]

I think it's because of the iPod. Not that they are worried about losing their OS monopoly to Apple, but because they are also trying to get into the music market and Apple clearly dominates there. As a result, the more they belittle Apple as a computer company, the more it indirectly attacks Apple as a music player company.

[Zimphire]

Yeah Apple wont get MS's monopoly.

The ARE worried about looking LESS COOL than Apple.

Too late.

[TailsToo]

Apple is taking the future growth areas, while Windows is being limited to nothing more than stuff to run the box.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by TailsToo

Apple is taking the future growth areas, while Windows is being limited to nothing more than stuff to run the box.

Microsoft has its hands in a lot of other ventures. Windows is still its flagship, but by no means are they not targeting growth. Do a little research.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by mattyd

Determination - WINNER: Jobs
Smarts - WINNER: Jobs

Don't be a dummy. Nobody becomes the most successful man in the world without determination and smarts. Gates has both.

On the other hand, if Apple has always had the superior goods, and they have the smartest and most determined leader, then why the paltry market share?

[Ω]

Originally Posted by spacefreak

On the other hand, if Apple has always had the superior goods, and they have the smartest and most determined leader, then why the paltry market share?

People are stupid?

[Kerrigan]

It's amazing how for a decade now, Apple has been simultaneously making a comeback and going out of business.
Conventional wisdom seems to tell us different things:
"This next Apple product will turn up the heat against Microsoft"
"In a few years time, Apple will be irrelevant"

I really have no idea if either of these philosophies are true. I tend to think that Apple has been in graceful decline for a few years now, but who knows.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by spacefreak

On the other hand, if Apple has always had the superior goods, and they have the smartest and most determined leader, then why the paltry market share?

http://news.com.com/2009-1001-212610...acy=cnet&tag=]

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9805/18/monopoly/

BTW, Porsche has less than 1% of the car market.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by spacefreak

Don't be a dummy. (...)

On the other hand, if Apple has always had the superior goods, and they have the smartest and most determined leader, then why the paltry market share?

Only a dummy confuses popularity for quality.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

It's amazing how for a decade now, Apple has been simultaneously making a comeback and going out of business.
Conventional wisdom seems to tell us different things:
"This next Apple product will turn up the heat against Microsoft"
"In a few years time, Apple will be irrelevant"

I really have no idea if either of these philosophies are true. I tend to think that Apple has been in graceful decline for a few years now, but who knows.

Graceful decline for a few years? When, in your opinion, was Apple in its ascendancy? The iMac era? With record profits and the resources to have its own chain of retail store, how could you possibly call this a decline?

[Millennium]

I suspect that Microsoft has a love-hate relationship with Apple. On one hand, it's hard to dislike the company that does almost all of your research and development for you. On the other, they're competition, and you know how Microsoft hates competition. Right now, I suspect they're on the 'hate' side of things, because Tiger has stolen a lot of Longhorn's thunder.

[Randman]

Don't forget that M$ helped Apple back in the dark days thereby helping itself. Without Apple, M$ might have faced anti-trust problems and been declared a monopoly by Congress and broken up like Ma Bell was.

Truth of the matter is that Microsoft benefits from Apple and Apple benefits from Microsoft. It may not be 50-50 but what business relationship is?

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Randman

Don't forget that M$ helped Apple back in the dark days thereby helping itself. Without Apple, M$ might have faced anti-trust problems and been declared a monopoly by Congress and broken up like Ma Bell was.

Certainly. That's when Microsoft was on the 'love' side of its relationship: Apple posed no threat but could be touted by lawyers as competition, which helped save Microsoft's rear (that, and a few million dollars in the right pockets). However, Apple is now getting strong enough to actually be a viable competitor, and that's something Microsoft can't allow.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

i dont think bill gates and microsoft consider Apple a true rival

they do interesting things but in the end, apple's profits have not reached a certain billion dollar point in which Apple Co. can even call itself in the same class.

[undotwa]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

http://news.com.com/2009-1001-212610...acy=cnet&tag=]

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9805/18/monopoly/

BTW, Porsche has less than 1% of the car market.

A Mac is not equivalent to a Porsche. Apple markets its computers to home users, education, business, graphics basically everyone. Porsche only markets its cars to the rich. I don't see the comparison.

[Eriamjh]

When Gates said "super-small", I think he was subconsciously saying "super, small".

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally Posted by undotwa

A Mac is not equivalent to a Porsche. Apple markets its computers to home users, education, business, graphics basically everyone. Porsche only markets its cars to the rich. I don't see the comparison.

there can be comparisons made on specific points but i think he is referring to them being both, small, quality, profitable, niche companies

nothing wrong about that. my company is involved with fitness centers and we are not the biggest but we are profitable, nice and we are influencing the fitness market with our ideas and work.

[xi_hyperon]

Most Mac users got over the insecurity of being in the minority a long time ago. IMHO, Gates' comment about market share, while true, is not necessarily an insult.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by spacefreak

Software-wise, there are so many more applications available to WIndows users. To claim that this is disinformation is wrong.. Maybe you're cool with the Mac software you need, but many in the (real) business world need applications developed for Windows - like businesses in the banking, retail, medical, restaurant, and industrial verticals. Applications for these markets are critical to the operations of those businesses. They couldn't care less about iTunes or GarageBand. They need applications to run their numerous, daily operations.

If the world was made up of all personal (home) computer users, I'd give you the benefit of the doubt. But that's nowhere near the case.

The only "problem" is that this specific campaign is NOT geared towards business professionals, but home users. So it is FUD !

-t

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by spacefreak

Software-wise, there are so many more applications available to WIndows users. To claim that this is disinformation is wrong..

It's not incorrect, but it is inaccurate; a half-truth perpetuated to make people believe that you can't do things on Macs that you can with Windows.

It is true, of course, that there are fewer specific applications on the Mac. However, almost every field of business is covered, as are most data formats. There are a few very specific and very closed areas where the Mac is weak -working with AutoCAD documents comes to mind- but these are few and far between. The fact is that a lack of specific software programs is not really a barrier for most businesses. It is for some -again, I note AutoCAD- but not for most.

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Graceful decline for a few years? When, in your opinion, was Apple in its ascendancy? The iMac era? With record profits and the resources to have its own chain of retail store, how could you possibly call this a decline?

By "Graceful decline", I mean that Apple continues to lose market-share every year, and but it still manages to keep a high profile. The Mac is firmly in its own niche market now, and it will never become the mainstream platform that it once was. I don't have any problem with this though, as I enjoy Mac OS X the way it is.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by undotwa

A Mac is not equivalent to a Porsche. Apple markets its computers to home users, education, business, graphics basically everyone. Porsche only markets its cars to the rich. I don't see the comparison.

Wow, I was told that Apple marketed to the Rich. That only the Rich could afford one .

at least that is what PC users tell me.

[willed]

I don't think Bill's worried about waking up one day and finding that it's Apple with 90% market share. However, Apple has really ****ed up MS's Media domination plans with the iPod, thereby showing it is a company worth worrying about. Also, even if Apple only gets to 10% market share that would be a hell of a lot of lost revenue for MS in the OS department.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

http://news.com.com/2009-1001-212610...acy=cnet&tag=]

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9805/18/monopoly/

You didn't really add any commentary, but am I to assume that you think the biggest reason Microsoft is dominant is due to the fact that they bundled Internet Explorer with Windows?

If so, I disagree. I say that Gates' decision to license Windows to third-party computer OEMs was a much bigger contributor to the Windows boom.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

Only a dummy confuses popularity for quality.

Whatever, champ.

Anyone who thinks Bill Gates is not smart or determined is a fool.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

By "Graceful decline", I mean that Apple continues to lose market-share every year, and but it still manages to keep a high profile. The Mac is firmly in its own niche market now, and it will never become the mainstream platform that it once was. I don't have any problem with this though, as I enjoy Mac OS X the way it is.

I see, that's reasonable. But the most recent data showed a small but not insignificant gain in market share, unless I am mistaken. Apple's actually decline was in the early to mid-1990s, and it was anything but graceful. Since then the company has had setbacks but has generally been on an upward slope.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by Millennium

It's not incorrect, but it is inaccurate; a half-truth perpetuated to make people believe that you can't do things on Macs that you can with Windows.

It is true, of course, that there are fewer specific applications on the Mac. However, almost every field of business is covered, as are most data formats. There are a few very specific and very closed areas where the Mac is weak -working with AutoCAD documents comes to mind- but these are few and far between. The fact is that a lack of specific software programs is not really a barrier for most businesses. It is for some -again, I note AutoCAD- but not for most.

I have yet to see a hotel or restaurant with Macs across the board. Ditto for banks, hospitals, and brokerage houses, too. Business-wise, that's the hospitality, financial, and medical fields. Not quite the "almost every field is covered" that you mention.

On an enterprise operations scale, the apps for Macs just aren't there.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

Wow, I was told that Apple marketed to the Rich. That only the Rich could afford one .

Not only can the Riches afford Apples, they can also afford pardons via large donations to presidential libraries.

[chris v]

Originally Posted by Millennium

It's not incorrect, but it is inaccurate; a half-truth perpetuated to make people believe that you can't do things on Macs that you can with Windows.

It is true, of course, that there are fewer specific applications on the Mac. However, almost every field of business is covered, as are most data formats.

I hate to say it, but here at my shop, we've got two macs in the art dpt. and 5 Dells up front is Sales and Bookkeeping because there is no good, comprehensive off-the-shelf accounting package for the Mac that allows multiple users. I would have had my whole building converted if not for this, last fall, when we really looked hard. Peachtree? Nope. Quickbooks? Nope. MYOB was rejected outright by our CPA as unable to do what we need to run the place. I hate the fact, but there it is.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by chris v

I hate the fact, but there it is.

It would be intriguing to see Apple target some of these fields - much like they targeted the video and audio editing/effects markets by buying up a slew of software companies.

It would probably be way too much of a struggle to try and catch up to hospital management systems, but I would think they could more easily target an accounting software company or two and be able to compete with the multi-user Quickbooks market that you mention.

[Ω]

Originally Posted by spacefreak

Not only can the Riches afford Apples, they can also afford pardons via large donations to presidential libraries.

Must you turn ever thread into a political tirade?

[undotwa]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

Wow, I was told that Apple marketed to the Rich. That only the Rich could afford one .

at least that is what PC users tell me.

By reading Apple's web site, you can clearly see their target market.
Porsche has clearly a different focus.

[chris v]

Originally Posted by spacefreak

It would be intriguing to see Apple target some of these fields - much like they targeted the video and audio editing/effects markets by buying up a slew of software companies.

It would probably be way too much of a struggle to try and catch up to hospital management systems, but I would think they could more easily target an accounting software company or two and be able to compete with the multi-user Quickbooks market that you mention.

I would have bought an iMac 17 and 3 eMacs on the spot, we were so sick of Peachtree on Windows, here.

Actually, there's apparently some very good dentistry software. My kid's orthodontist is all Mac.

[macaddict0001]

yeah Many dentists use macs

[willed]

Originally Posted by macaddict0001

yeah Many dentists use macs

Unfortunately non of it is UK localised, so dentists over here are stuck with PCs.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by spacefreak

You didn't really add any commentary, but am I to assume that you think the biggest reason Microsoft is dominant is due to the fact that they bundled Internet Explorer with Windows?

If so, I disagree. I say that Gates' decision to license Windows to third-party computer OEMs was a much bigger contributor to the Windows boom.

It wasn't the decision, but the license itself.

No matter if a computer CAME with MSDOS, the resellers and customer had to pay.

Meaning no matter what the computer came with, MSDOS was installed. And if it wasn't, MS still made money off it.

This was put to a halt in the late 80s. But by then it was too late.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by spacefreak

I have yet to see a hotel or restaurant with Macs across the board.

I know MANY restaurants (And owners) that use Macs.

One even has a iMac for the "register"

And the Blennerhasset Historic Hotel has Macs and PCs in the internet room.

And I live in a small town...

So...

[PB2K]

when Apple is the first to start putting CELL processors in their computers, THEN they have a good headstart against competitors. Sony is really bent on destroying the XBOX2, so it will feature this technology in their PS3 Sony can also afford to loose money on the hardware, while making it on the software

what is a cell processor?

microsoft is being besieged on all fronts : browsers, consoles, online music stores, home multimediacenters, etc. Apple is just nibbling away marketshare like so many other companies do..

apple and CELL

nice prospects eh