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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Do we have a "right" to anonymity on these boards?

Do we have a "right" to anonymity on these boards?
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Mrjinglesusa
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Aug 20, 2005, 03:43 PM
 
Spin off of a discussion in the "Zigzag Memorial" thread. Is a name private information? Do we have a right to remain anonymous on the internet? If I reveal my real name to someone here and they post it or otherwise use it to find more public information about me, is that a violation?

My opinion is that a name is not "private information". It is publicly available to anyone who wishes to find it and knows where to look. Public information is public information.
     
Railroader
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Aug 20, 2005, 03:47 PM
 
So, what's your name?

Where do you live? I see you were vague there in the "location" field.

How much do you make?

What's your SSN?

Privacy is about all we have anymore. It's the most valuable thing personally.
     
Mrjinglesusa  (op)
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Aug 20, 2005, 03:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader
So, what's your name?

Where do you live? I see you were vague there in the "location" field.

How much do you make?

What's your SSN?

Privacy is about all we have anymore. It's the most valuable thing personally.
Note I said "if" one were to reveal it. If you find out my name, is that a violation of my right to privacy?

I live in Charlottesville, VA

I make $50,000/year

A SS# is not something I would post on a public forum nor would I give it out to anyone. The potential uses of someone's SS#, along with some other information, are often naughty.
     
davesimondotcom
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Aug 20, 2005, 04:00 PM
 
Well, I suppose it's not all that easy for me to hide my identity...
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dreilly1
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Aug 20, 2005, 04:02 PM
 
To me, it's tricky. There is so much information available on each one of us if we know where to look. And we don't even have to snoop around, either. How much of that information is considered "private"?

I think everyone can agree that your SSN is private information. But your name? My name is on my government-issued drivers license and passport, it's in a number of public documents, and it's in a number of places on the Internet. OK, part of my name is in my username, that's a bad example.

I am assuming that the first two posters' here have nothing to do with the words Jingle or Railroad. (Or Kilby... you used to be kilbey, right?) Can you really be sure that there is absolutely no connection between your MacNN persona and your real one? Would either of you feel violated of someone piped up here and said "I know that dude, he's ___ ______"? How about if said person searched the forums and found a post with your name and E-mail address, and reposted that?

I think the real issue is, "Do we have a right to establish an alternate identity online, and keep your real identity a secret"? I think we have every right to try, but it's our responsibility to make sure that we keep it that way, and make sure that nobody in the community knows your other identity. If someone else finds out what your true identity is, they're under no obligation to keep it secret unless they were expressly told not to reveal it...

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Railroader
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Aug 20, 2005, 04:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by dreilly1
To me, it's tricky. There is so much information available on each one of us if we know where to look. And we don't even have to snoop around, either. How much of that information is considered "private"?

I think everyone can agree that your SSN is private information. But your name? My name is on my government-issued drivers license and passport, it's in a number of public documents, and it's in a number of places on the Internet. OK, part of my name is in my username, that's a bad example.

I am assuming that the first two posters' here have nothing to do with the words Jingle or Railroad. (Or Kilby... you used to be kilbey, right?) Can you really be sure that there is absolutely no connection between your MacNN persona and your real one? Would either of you feel violated of someone piped up here and said "I know that dude, he's ___ ______"? How about if said person searched the forums and found a post with your name and E-mail address, and reposted that?

I think the real issue is, "Do we have a right to establish an alternate identity online, and keep your real identity a secret"? I think we have every right to try, but it's our responsibility to make sure that we keep it that way, and make sure that nobody in the community knows your other identity. If someone else finds out what your true identity is, they're under no obligation to keep it secret unless they were expressly told not to reveal it...
I was making a point. The "government-issued" argument is bad. Your SSN is on a SS card which is government issued.

"Kilbey" has nothing to do with my name. I used to post with my full name and town in my sig. It's not secret. I stopped putting it in there because I noticed no one else did and then I also saw how stupid it was to sign your posts. I also did it for security reasons after I realized there were a few crazy fruitcakes on here. But I did that more for my family's safety.

I COMPLETELY agree with your last paragraph.
     
Mrjinglesusa  (op)
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Aug 20, 2005, 04:16 PM
 
I agree completely and that was exactly my point. You can try to hide behind an online persona. If someone finds out your real name, they are under no "obligation" to keep it secret unless you explicitly tell them that you are telling them your name in confidence.
     
JustAnOl'Broad
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Aug 20, 2005, 04:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by davesimondotcom
Well, I suppose it's not all that easy for me to hide my identity...
me neither.
I mean just how many Old Broads are there anyway?


PS: I am actually Bruce,
and not all That Old.
     
Mrjinglesusa  (op)
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Aug 20, 2005, 04:21 PM
 
Another point:

Why try to be completely anonymous? I mean, even if you knew my name, over 8,000,000 hits come up on google. With my name and city, over 600,000. You still wouldn't know much about me (i.e. my address, wife's name, phone number, etc.).

Try it:

Jim Anderson
     
Chuckit
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Aug 20, 2005, 04:41 PM
 
Yeah, if your name is Jim Anderson. I get 198 if you type in my name and city. Not all me, of course, but still.
Chuck
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CRASH HARDDRIVE
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Aug 20, 2005, 04:42 PM
 
I think more than one issue may be getting tangled.

On the matter of specifically posting here -on these or any other forums- yes, I believe everyone has the right* not to have public information about them posted without their consent. *Is that a written in stone, legal, unalienable, constitutional, universal ‘right’? Perhaps not. But a matter of common sense, common courtesy, common decency? I would definitely say yes.

There’s a matter of connection involved. Even if a person makes headlines elsewhere, and someone else here knows them by name and is therefore able to look them up, I see no ‘right’ for anyone to bridge the connection and reveal private information about someone else on a forum, especially if that person’s identity isn’t public knowledge on the forum.

That’s an entirely separate issue from whether or not that person’s identity and information should be a matter of public record elsewhere- IE: in their locality, with authorities, neighbors, media, google… whatever. In that case, yes it should be available and whatever the issue is should be looked into by the proper authorities.

But I fail to see where a person by default has to have their anonymity betrayed in other circles where whatever allegations aren’t in any way an issue. Keep in mind the keyword allegation here, not conviction.

In the tribute thread it really struck me as unfair. I don’t excuse or condone the content of any allegations, but I consider them someone’s private business that didn’t concern this forum. It's not a jury with any automatic 'right to know' merely for curiosity sake.

That has nothing to do with whether or not it should be dealt with at a local level by authorities where it may indeed be a public matter. I don’t believe that just by a person participating in (unrelated) conversations on a forum that it bridges a connection between those two issues.

Many here may probably have varying levels of public and private information about themselves readily available on the web and elsewhere in real life. I think each individual has sole authority on how that information should be connected and revealed.

Anyway, that’s my 2 cents and rant on the matter. Unfortunate that this subject even had to come up under such tragic circumstances.
     
JustAnOl'Broad
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Aug 20, 2005, 04:44 PM
 
15,200,000 for "just an old broad" search. Lol
I see your point tho.
     
Chuckit
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Aug 20, 2005, 04:47 PM
 
Oh, I didn't really answer the question. I don't look at it any differently on an Internet forum than, say, at work or among any other group of acquaintances. I have no reason to be eager to hide things from y'all folks any more than anybody else. Some things should be kept private. Other things don't really need to be. I don't think "these boards" really come into the equation.
Chuck
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christ
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Aug 20, 2005, 04:48 PM
 
OK - I tried "christ".

There is apparently a famous one. (I'm not him)
Chris. T.

"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
davesimondotcom
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Aug 20, 2005, 04:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by christ
OK - I tried "christ".

There is apparently a famous one. (I'm not him)
OK, I actually did laugh out loud...

I actually am the first result that comes up if you google "Dave Simon."
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lavar78
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Aug 20, 2005, 06:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by davesimondotcom
OK, I actually did laugh out loud...

I actually am the first result that comes up if you google "Dave Simon."
Never trust a man with two first names.

"I'm virtually bursting with adequatulence!" - Bill McNeal, NewsRadio
     
Captain Obvious
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Aug 20, 2005, 07:08 PM
 
From the standpoint of the admins who own and regulate the site, yes they have a duty to not disclose details we do not offer up as part of our public profile without explicitly telling users that at the point of registration. I would even argue that they have to take extra steps to guard that information and should be held liable should it get out without our permission.

In terms of the right of anonymity based on what others find here I would have to say that it your own responsibility to guard your privacy. The right to anonymity stands so long as you do not invite others into your personal life by sharing the details of it. The moment you open up and share elements of who you are, your family, or work you make the decision to give up the anonymity of elements related to it.

If you post links or information about your business or personal website then you should be prepared to have the content of the entire source poured over by people here. If they find information or images of your loved ones who did not volunteer to be part of this forum then you should have taken precautions to protect them and their information from a public forum. Likewise if you bring in details about your interaction with them or details about their lives do not complain when others comment or criticize you about it. If you did not want it discussed do not bring it here. (cough:couch:iwrite) If you do not want people to know where you live do not make reference to it. If you do not want people at your work finding out you post here do not reference them in any way or take steps to protect your own identity.

So long as people do not go to illegal measures to secure personal information or a supposed trusted source sells you out then it is fair game what people can dig up. With regaurds to Zig, the entire thing getting out was the fault of the person who notified the forum about his death. Even if it was not his intention or he wanted to keep certain details of it hidden it is on his shoulders that the topic was brought out at all.

Do not bring it here if you do not want it talked about.

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Face Ache
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Aug 20, 2005, 08:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa
Another point:

Why try to be completely anonymous? I mean, even if you knew my name, over 8,000,000 hits come up on google. With my name and city, over 600,000. You still wouldn't know much about me (i.e. my address, wife's name, phone number, etc.).

Try it:

Jim Anderson
*snip*

Point made

Well you asked.
     
Face Ache
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Aug 20, 2005, 08:07 PM
 
:d
     
ThinkInsane
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Aug 20, 2005, 08:30 PM
 
A lot of us are probably a little more cavalier than we should be as far as giving out personal information about ourselves. Hell, I once invited everyone on the forums to my house for a beer and posted directions, just to see if anyone would show up (I've since moved, lest any of you crazy savages get any ideas).

But the fact remains that I've been fairly lax about what I post, and although I have nothing to hide, that same laxity of giving out my name and other personally identifying has led to PM exchanges like this:


Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinkInsane
Ah, now we're getting somewhere. Why don't you just tell me who you are, and we can get this settled right quick?


Quote:
Originally Posted by *snip*
No dice--> That's so impersonal. It's always better in person...

It's not just your actions tonight either. My problem with you goes back to your days in law enforcement. Think! You know what I'm talking about.....................


Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinkInsane
But it's only better in person if I don't know who you are? Isn't that nice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by *snip*
You know me... You may not want to remember me, but you surely know me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinkInsane
All I need is a name.


Quote:
Originally Posted by *snip*
You've already tarnished my name, and basically submitted me to a life of hell!

This is my game now.... My game.
Oh, the drama!

Whether people have the right to post personal information about other users, I guess it depends on the situation. As far as I know, the person about whom this thread refers never gave his real name publicly, and I would hope that people would take that into consideration when posting. If someone makes no bones about having their real life information on the forum, then I would say they have made that decision for us. As far as policy, I have always deleted people's personal information at their request, or when someone has posted it in a spiteful manner that would (or could) have repercussions for that individual. I think the solution to this, like many so many other things in life, lies in having a bit of respect for others. I know sometimes that's a lot to ask around here.
Nemo me impune lacesset
     
amsalpemkcus
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Aug 20, 2005, 08:40 PM
 
I wish I could find myself!
     
Kevin
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Aug 20, 2005, 09:27 PM
 
Even when I had a zillion accounts I still didn't hide who I was.

It's not too hard to figure out.
     
m a d r a
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Aug 21, 2005, 09:06 AM
 
heh! - i've pretty much got all the results when i google for my real name. guesss there aren't that many other folk about with a gaelic first name and russian surname!

googling for "madra" isnae quite so successful. i get in at about no.10 on google for my maCNN profile [of all things!] but my website [madra.net] is feckin' nowhere, goddammit!

as regards privacy, it disnae usually take much detective work to find out who someone really is. most folk on here will either list their website openly, or will host their sig image on their own webspace, or will have posted links in the past to photos of themselves or auctions they're running on ebay. i reckon even a pretty amateur 'sherlock holmes' could build up a pretty good dossier on most of us, if they could be bothered putting in the time. but is it a privacy issue? - i don't think so. stuff like a person's name, age, DOB, what they look like, even [usually] their address is pretty much "public" knowledge. i'll start worrying about privacy, when i find my bank details or creditcard number posted on the web!
     
Ω
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Aug 21, 2005, 09:22 AM
 
My online account would come nowhere. Sometimes it is good to hide behind something else!!

As far as the zigzag question is concerned I think it was a betrayal of a trust. If zigzag had wanted his name known he would have let the posters at 'NN know. I know when I speak in PMs I choose whether or not I use my real or assumed name.

I will also say here that I am sad to see the result of the zigzag thread. We knew him as a great poster, and that is how I would like to remember him. That he felt like that he had no one to turn to in his life is sad given that he had so many iFriends on this site. I do not condone his actions, but the result to me is saddening.....

RIP zigzag
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lurkalot
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Aug 21, 2005, 12:44 PM
 
Yes, we do.
     
m a d r a
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Aug 21, 2005, 01:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Ω
... That he felt like that he had no one to turn to in his life is sad given that he had so many iFriends on this site....
you think he should have posted about it in the lounge ["jpeg orgy"]?
     
Warung
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Aug 21, 2005, 01:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE
*snip* Anyway, that’s my 2 cents and rant on the matter. Unfortunate that this subject even had to come up under such tragic circumstances.
Well said.

Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
     
freudling
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Aug 21, 2005, 01:10 PM
 
Names should be private. The problem though, for the person digging, is that they will need more info than just a name in most cases to narrow their search. However, on a daily basis within ones hometown, I a name should be guarded. As an amplification, too many times have I been out and about and people try to investigate me. "How old are you?" "Where do you work?"

I went to buy a watch at the Bay (big department store) and the person helping me was relentless in finding out where I worked. "What do you do for a living?" Me, "Computers." Her, "Where do you work?" I wanted to say fxxx off. She must have probed half a dozen times as I continued to look for a watch. I never told her and I strongly believe that people do this not just for their jobs but because they are nosey. I have become perhaps overly cautious in revealing any kind of tangible info to people.
     
Warung
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Aug 21, 2005, 01:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling
As an amplification, too many times have I been out and about and people try to investigate me. "How old are you?" "Where do you work?"
Err, maybe these people are only trying to make conversation? Humans do that, you know?

Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
     
Mrjinglesusa  (op)
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Aug 21, 2005, 01:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Warung
Err, maybe these people are only trying to make conversation? Humans do that, you know?
Exactly. People are just way too paranoid these days. Ooooh, they want to know HOW OLD I AM! Ahhhhhh!!!!!!
     
Kevin
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Aug 21, 2005, 01:47 PM
 
Some people like to be "hidden" sometimes to not protect themselves from abusive posters. But their families.

Like for instance, someone Photoshopping pics of their daughter.
     
budster101
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Aug 21, 2005, 01:50 PM
 
Kevin: You hit the nail on the head. That is a crime. I never saw the photo, but heard of that, and it was very wrong!!! You should persue legal methods to quash that person from doing such abusive things.

Or, you could send him SUV Brochures, FREE coupons for cigs, and brochures about becoming a meter maid....
     
freudling
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Aug 21, 2005, 04:46 PM
 
Mrjinglesusa:

I like that username. Ha! Anyway, I agree to a point that people are paranoid too much so. However, outside of North America, there are places where you have to be. I lived in Central Europe for a few years and you certainly want to be private there. The thinking amongst some of the employees at a large bank there led me to believe, "Tell strangers your name and where you work, and you may end up dead because they want your job." That is not far off, either. Unfortunately, I do not have an online subscription to the mag to point to a link, but about 6 months ago, close to where I was at, an Irishman (I believe) was taken away from a very popular pub downtown and murdered for his credit cards and money. A hot local reeled him in and then the mob took care of the rest. His innocence and his coolness with his foreign status led to his demise.

My hockey coach out there is an FBI agent. He told me, after I came in pissed off that a taxi driver took me for a spin, that two big FBI agents came up one time to pickup an american fugitive, and they went out drinking the night before: the taxi driver drove them out to nowhere and told them to pay or get out. The balls on some of those people. How smart to drive to big American dudes nowhere who are packing and demand money. But that is how they think.

Another story was ran about debt recovery. There are agencies whereby you call and drop a debtors name (Jack owes me 100 G) and they will initiate a reign of terror on the person. The journalist used a fake name for himself and his real name for the debtor. He was surprised to get in the mail a picture of his sister who was abroad, essentially threatening her life.

We are not as currupt amongst ourselves out here, but Big Brother is there.
( Last edited by freudling; Aug 21, 2005 at 04:53 PM. )
     
ReggieX
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Aug 21, 2005, 04:54 PM
 
If you want anonymity, don't post personal details about yourself

Originally Posted by lavar78
Never trust a man with two first names.
How about 3? And none of them is Reggie.
The Lord said 'Peter, I can see your house from here.'
     
Millennium
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Aug 21, 2005, 07:21 PM
 
True anonymity on the Net is quite rare. Even a simple HTTP request -the same kind used to access any page- leaves a record of your IP address and the time you made the request. Given enough detective work, this can be traced back directly to your computer, even if you're behind a dynamic IP. It's very difficult, as it requires going through the logs of multiple servers, but it can be done. You can make it even harder by using an Internet cafe, but even this only adds an extra layer and type of records that have to be searched. Encryption doesn't help as far as this goes; people may not be able to tell what you said, but they can still find out that you said something. This is the difference between anonymity and secrecy; it's subtle but it can be important.

The only real 'anonymity' you have is how difficult you are to trace. You can make this very hard if you want, but you cannot make it impossible. Because of this, if you want to say things that you fear might get you into trouble, you need to be able to manage the risks by achieving a level of difficulty that you find acceptable.
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Gamoe
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Aug 22, 2005, 02:24 AM
 
I also agree that people have a right to keep their "offline identities" to themselves if that is what they wish, and no one has a right, ethically, to post any personal information-- including names, photos-- against a person's wishes.

It is way too easy to obtain personal information you have no right to about a person these days. Sure, you could find out about a person and post it all over the forums, and it might be perfectly legal. But is it right? I sympathize with ThinkInsane's sentiments-- we'd be in much better shape if only people had more respect for each other.

As for the Zigzag issue-- I can't say much, because I only interacted with him on the boards on a very limited basis. And it's a little different, because once a person is no longer, there is no privacy to defend, and no harm to be done to the person. But, then it becomes an issue of respect to the person's family and memory. I will not say either way, but I think maybe there was a longing to know what happened, and in that eagerness to know more some other information was revealed.

Frankly, I don't think it was important to reveal that information, but as to whether it should or should not have been revealed to the board depends on effect it had on how people will remember him. I don't think that the responsibility lies with the individual who informed the board of his death, though.
     
turtle777
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Aug 22, 2005, 11:46 AM
 
I don't think that single pieces of information (like a name, or city) is problematic. The problem is that once it's out on the internet, it's very easy to connect all the dots ( -> profiling). That's what I don't like, because it is not within your control. The key information that connects the dots is mostly your name, or SS#. Of course, every idiot knows to keep the SS# secret, but I do with my name to, because it far to easily connects the dots.

Now, if your name is Joe Public or John Doe, you don"t have that issue. But as for me, my First + Last Name is unique.

-t
     
dreilly1
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Aug 22, 2005, 01:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Ω
As far as the zigzag question is concerned I think it was a betrayal of a trust. If zigzag had wanted his name known he would have let the posters at 'NN know. I know when I speak in PMs I choose whether or not I use my real or assumed name.
Not necessarily. Why are we assuming that Zig wanted to remain anonymous at all costs? I just revisited that thread, and CaseCom said he "traded a few E-mails" with Zig, and that's how he got to know his real name. If Zig was really guarding his privacy jealously, why would he have even divulged his real name in an E-mail?

Now, it may or may not have been a good idea to post those articles in that thread in the first place. But I don't think we should get on CaseCom's case for betraying any trust unless he was specifically told not to divulge something. My understanding is that all the trouble that Zig got into was relatively recent. Which means that at the time Zig and Casecom were corresponding, Zig probably didn't feel the need to maintain total anonymity....

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Person Man
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Aug 22, 2005, 03:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777
my First + Last Name is unique.

-t
So is my combination of both First and Last name. Heck, my last name alone is unique, but I have on occasion posted my first name in here since it is a VERY common Greek name.
     
mojo2
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Aug 22, 2005, 09:58 PM
 
These pages are, in effect, the community of man. In this community we have individuals of every stripe, thought, background and sensibility.

We've all seen how words...WORDS...can result in violence.

Anonymity is the only bulwark separating freedom of expression and...?

How freely would you speak if you knew someone didn't agree with your words and knew where you lived?
Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
     
Chuckit
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Aug 22, 2005, 10:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by mojo2
How freely would you speak if you knew someone didn't agree with your words and knew where you lived?
That depends on how much conviction I felt. If I don't feel enough to say it openly, maybe it's not something I should be saying anyway.
Chuck
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Cubeoid
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Aug 22, 2005, 11:57 PM
 
I am getting "approved" by "forum officials" on another forum as we forum here.. the "Real Name" that I provided is Real Namski. I hope they "approve" me. I mean "Me". This is gay.
     
mojo2
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Aug 23, 2005, 12:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit
That depends on how much conviction I felt. If I don't feel enough to say it openly, maybe it's not something I should be saying anyway.
You have a point. However, just as there is value in becoming a martyr for one's beliefs, the value of continuing to focus attention on things that some people would rather stay hidden, also has value.
Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
     
   
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