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The Expanse Bad Science Roundup (Page 6)
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reader50
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Sep 27, 2022, 05:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
That would require rockets in Naomi’s face, no?
It would allow inertia to silently finish the delivery near Naomi's face. She snaps the ends together before excess tether can slowly pile up. Then tensioning the completed tether from both sides prevents the slow pileup.
     
subego  (op)
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Sep 27, 2022, 06:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
It would allow inertia to silently finish the delivery near Naomi's face. She snaps the ends together before excess tether can slowly pile up. Then tensioning the completed tether from both sides prevents the slow pileup.
I’m trying to make sense of “[m]y guess is the winch side didn't brake it to the final stop”.

If the winch side isn’t causing the braking, the only other option is the drone firing its rockets.
     
reader50
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Sep 27, 2022, 07:52 PM
 
The winch side on the Belter ship, brakes it to millimeters per second, instead of to zero. How did you jump from "not braking to a final stop" over to "not braking at all"?

"not braking to a final stop" = a California stop, if that helps.
     
subego  (op)
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Sep 27, 2022, 08:02 PM
 
I didn’t.

What’s causing the final stop? Naomi?
     
subego  (op)
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Sep 27, 2022, 08:03 PM
 
Ah! Edit explains it! I thought you meant stop-stop.
     
subego  (op)
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Sep 27, 2022, 08:18 PM
 
Now that I understand, I’ll reiterate my point. I posit putting the drone in a precise location (such as right up in Naomi’s grille) with negligible velocity using only the winch is a non-trivial proposition. The winch won’t have the precision to taper off the drone’s velocity without overshoot or rebound. It’ll probably overshoot and rebound.

In contrast, the drone is at the end of a leash. The drone can trivially position itself on an arc with the radius of the tether by pulling on it.
     
reader50
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Sep 27, 2022, 09:17 PM
 
Pulling on it = almost guaranteed rebound. Also, this leash masses tons. That's a lot of inertia to play with.

Allowing it to reach Naomi with negligible speed is possible, braking at the winch, with minor tugs and course corrections by the drone. Even if it's difficult, they have AI so advanced it put 90%+ of Earth's population out of work, necessitating Basic assistance. Advanced enough that everyone hates AI, and AIs have been programmed to not speak. To only obey, and provide extra info via displays.

I believe the scene shows the tether sequence in a way that can work, and doesn't violate physics. Technically, our discussion should move to a science lab experiment, using an air track, with string for the tether. Sadly, I do not have that equipment on hand. If you wanted to test it for real, eBay does have a couple. The track lengths look short though - a long track would be desirable for this kind of experiment. 1 2
( Last edited by reader50; Sep 28, 2022 at 12:02 AM. )
     
OreoCookie
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Sep 28, 2022, 12:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Now that I understand, I’ll reiterate my point. I posit putting the drone in a precise location (such as right up in Naomi’s grille) with negligible velocity using only the winch is a non-trivial proposition.
Non-trivial in what sense? The problem is very similar to e. g. connecting a tug boat to a huge container cargo ship or connecting two large ships of similar size. If you have to moor a big container ship, then you use several winches. This seems highly non-trivial, but it isn’t science fiction. In space you don’t have to contend with tides, wind, water currents from passing vessels, etc.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The winch won’t have the precision to taper off the drone’s velocity without overshoot or rebound. It’ll probably overshoot and rebound.
Why? It seems way easier than mooring a ship on the ocean.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
In contrast, the drone is at the end of a leash. The drone can trivially position itself on an arc with the radius of the tether by pulling on it.
Yes, but you then have a rotating drone with a huge cable (conservation of angular momentum). Once the cable has a velocity component perpendicular to the direction of the cable, the drone would have to stop that, too.
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Allowing it to reach Naomi with negligible speed is possible, braking at the winch, with minor tugs and course corrections by the drone. Even if it's difficult, they have AI so advanced it put 90%+ of Earth's population out of work, necessitating Basic assistance. Advanced enough that everyone hates AI, and AIs have been programmed to not speak. To only obey, and provide extra info via displays.
Surely, AI would help, but I am not even convinced you need AI for that. All of these people grew up in space, on ships and space stations. I assume mooring vessels is second nature to them, and it looks easy enough a task to even do by hand. Perhaps it is easier with AI, but I don’t think AI is necessary.
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
I believe the scene shows the tether sequence in a way that can work, and doesn't violate physics. Technically, our discussion should move to a science lab experiment, using an air track, with string for the tether.
That’s exactly the experiment I was thinking of!
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subego  (op)
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Sep 28, 2022, 02:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
braking at the winch, with minor tugs and course corrections by the drone.
I posit a significant portion of these minor tugs and course corrections would occur during braking, which we didn’t see (and didn’t hear).

Again, what I’m challenging is the winch being the sole means by which braking was achieved.
     
subego  (op)
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Sep 28, 2022, 02:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Non-trivial in what sense? The problem is very similar to e. g. connecting a tug boat to a huge container cargo ship or connecting two large ships of similar size. If you have to moor a big container ship, then you use several winches. This seems highly non-trivial, but it isn’t science fiction. In space you don’t have to contend with tides, wind, water currents from passing vessels, etc.
I didn’t watch the video, but is there a part where a winch brakes a tugboat with no rebound, and the tugboat isn’t using its engine?

That’s the scenario in the show. The winch brings the drone to a perfect halt with no visible rebound, all while the drone’s thrusters are off.
     
OreoCookie
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Sep 28, 2022, 06:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I didn’t watch the video, but is there a part where a winch brakes a tugboat with no rebound, and the tugboat isn’t using its engine?
The video was mostly about mooring, i. e. there were several cables attached to winches the boat and the other end attached to the dock, no tug involved. They explained how difficult it is, because e. g. the boat is subjected to waves, winds, currents and eddies, etc. It certainly looked more complicated than having to deal with a single cable and a single winch in space where the biggest difficulty is to brake the cable.

After seeing the video, that seems like a piece of cake.
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reader50
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Sep 28, 2022, 07:11 PM
 
I too think it would be easy. The drone would periodically thrust during most of the trip, keeping the cable playing out. It would make small course corrections too. But they'd gently brake it by hand, using a video feed from the Roci for feedback. subego thinks it would be unduly complicated, even for AI. As the Expanse people have AI coming out the wazoo, it's still covered.

Either way, we've established they can do it as shown in the episode. I'm losing track of why we're arguing - it's feeling like a hydrazine commercial. Gotta think of a reason to burn more in the drone, so we can sell more.
     
subego  (op)
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Sep 28, 2022, 08:13 PM
 
The main reason I’m still arguing is because the actual hard part isn’t being addressed, which is eliminating visible rebound solely using the winch.

I’m not saying it breaks the laws of physics, I’m saying it makes no sense to do it that way, even with an AI, because the drone can use thrusters to compensate for the rebound.
( Last edited by subego; Sep 28, 2022 at 10:13 PM. )
     
subego  (op)
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Sep 28, 2022, 10:13 PM
 
When you asked the AI to calculate the precise winch breaking involved to insure zero rebound, it would say “the intelligent solution is for me not to calculate this and instead use the thrusters on the drone.”

“Especially with that piece of shit Belter winch.”





“Don’t make me open the pod bay doors on you.”
     
OreoCookie
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Sep 29, 2022, 12:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The main reason I’m still arguing is because the actual hard part isn’t being addressed, which is eliminating visible rebound solely using the winch.
I guess I don't understand why you think it is hard. I never gave it a second thought when I watched the episode the first time, and even after our discussion here, I still don't see any reason why this is hard. Like I wrote above, it seems much easier than mooring an ocean liner, and the latter is done on a daily basis without AI.

Maybe we can close this chapter and go to the next episode?
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subego  (op)
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Sep 29, 2022, 01:20 PM
 
Well, my dad’s lost the thread a bit, and reader hasn’t seen S5, so even if the subject changes, talk about older stuff is still not a bad idea.
     
OreoCookie
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Sep 29, 2022, 08:10 PM
 
We could use spoiler tags.
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subego  (op)
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Sep 30, 2022, 12:43 AM
 
Of course!

I’m just saying we also like old stuff because we like the company.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 2, 2022, 07:40 AM
 
I heard a rumour the show can get picked up by another network if Amazon doesn't pick it up in the next 12 months. And WB/HBO might want to make 5 more seasons.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego  (op)
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Oct 2, 2022, 10:22 AM
 
My dad will be thrilled.
     
reader50
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Oct 2, 2022, 01:28 PM
 
So he resumed watching?

Regarding the series continuing, it is based on 9 books. Each TV season is roughly based on a book (S1 - S3 had erratic mapping). So there are 3 books of story material left for potential future seasons. I haven't heard anything though about continued production.
     
subego  (op)
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Oct 2, 2022, 02:40 PM
 
We watched one episode the day before yesterday.

He started to lose steam in S4, and I’d say now he’s only in it to have it done. I mean, he doesn’t hate it or anything, but he’s lost any eagerness he once had.

Personally, I want five seasons of the spin-off Amos.
     
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Oct 2, 2022, 06:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Personally, I want five seasons of the spin-off Amos.
If you love Amos, you will love season 5: part of season 5 is about his backstory. Episode 1 starts with a few iconic one liners. Episode 2 is also great, he’s meeting his favorite stripper (you’ll get the reference once you see it).
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subego  (op)
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Oct 2, 2022, 07:49 PM
 
I… don’t love season 5, unfortunately.

I do like the Amos parts.

 
     
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Oct 2, 2022, 10:35 PM
 
 


PS I didn't know you were a fellow Ghost in the Shell enthusiast!
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Waragainstsleep
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Oct 3, 2022, 06:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
So he resumed watching?

Regarding the series continuing, it is based on 9 books. Each TV season is roughly based on a book (S1 - S3 had erratic mapping). So there are 3 books of story material left for potential future seasons. I haven't heard anything though about continued production.
Apparently there is a large gap in the timeline between end season 5 and the next book. They want to fill that in a bit.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego  (op)
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Oct 3, 2022, 08:24 PM
 
So, if HBO picks it up, I assume the gratuitous sex goes up to 11.

The science says watching that with your dad is awkward.
     
subego  (op)
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Oct 3, 2022, 11:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
 


PS I didn't know you were a fellow Ghost in the Shell enthusiast!
 


Love GitS, though I still haven’t gotten around to watching SAC. I think I mentioned in one of the movie threads I’m plotting to get my dad to watch it. He’s got a block about anime, but past the visual style I’d say there’s a solid argument it’s been strongly steeped in Western sensibilities.

What actually concerns me more is even though the story is dead-ass simple, it’s presented in such an inscrutable manner he could get frustrated. I know I needed multiple viewings before I could factually say I understood what the fuck I just saw.
     
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Oct 4, 2022, 02:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
 
 

Originally Posted by subego View Post
Love GitS, though I still haven’t gotten around to watching SAC. I think I mentioned in one of the movie threads I’m plotting to get my dad to watch it. He’s got a block about anime, but past the visual style I’d say there’s a solid argument it’s been strongly steeped in Western sensibilities.
We have had our disagreements in the past, but this takes the cake, it isn't even close!

SAC seasons 1 and 2 are by far the best bits about GitS, and it isn't even close. Especially knowing what we know now, the main theme of season 1 has completely come to pass in reality. I don't want to spoiler anything. But I am gobsmacked how Shirow could have predicted that. However, the story is complex and needs time to unfold. Still, SAC Season 1 is by far the best animated series for adults.

Season 2 also hits home dead center, although to fully appreciate it, you need to know more about Japanese post-WW2 politics.

The first follow-up movie is also excellent, although it explores philosophy much more in depth.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
What actually concerns me more is even though the story is dead-ass simple, it’s presented in such an inscrutable manner he could get frustrated. I know I needed multiple viewings before I could factually say I understood what the fuck I just saw.
To really appreciate GitS and The Expanse, you have to — at least — partially rewatch the series. But it is entirely worth it. I'm on my third pass now. (Although I haven't watched the last two seasons three times.)
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subego  (op)
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Oct 4, 2022, 04:04 AM
 
What’s the disagreement?
     
OreoCookie
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Oct 4, 2022, 07:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
What’s the disagreement?
No, the fact you call yourself a GitS fan, but haven’t seen SAC yet!
(No worries, I tried to make a joke in good faith, not a very good one it seems. Please ignore!)

Seriously, watch SAC. We have it on Netflix in Japan.
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subego  (op)
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Oct 4, 2022, 04:52 PM
 
It was a good joke! I just didn’t get it at first!
( Last edited by subego; Oct 4, 2022 at 05:25 PM. )
     
subego  (op)
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Oct 12, 2022, 01:44 AM
 
My dad said he’s not abandoning it, but he didn’t want to watch an episode tonight because he wasn’t up for something with that much blue in the color palette.
     
subego  (op)
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Nov 2, 2022, 02:58 AM
 
It’s easier to do “Just Amos Things” if…

 
     
OreoCookie
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Nov 8, 2022, 09:23 PM
 
I got really lucky and ended up watching 1.5 episodes last night, including one of my favorite scenes of the whole series: the bit where the transport Amos is on lands on the Moon. Plus the “stripper” dialog between Amos and Chrisjen.
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subego  (op)
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Nov 8, 2022, 09:25 PM
 
“Can I go now?”
     
OreoCookie
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Nov 9, 2022, 09:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
“Can I go now?”
Yeah, that was pretty good.
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