Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

michaelb · Sep 16, 2003, 05:08 AM

So much for being announced at today's expo for an October release, it's still officially by the end of the year.

Somewhat disappointing. Either there's a lot still to do, or they're worried about having to offer a lot of free updates to G5 purchasers.

Anyone running the ADC builds surprised at the longer than expected timing?

voodoo · Sep 16, 2003, 06:33 AM

I was hoping for a firm release date - so I am disappointed. Apple has little more than 3 months until the end of the year. I would have thought they'd have planned that timeframe completely by now. Steve must know when the expected release date is!

OptimusG4 · Sep 16, 2003, 06:36 AM

disappointing my a**. He said end of the year, not fall 2003. I don't see why people thought it would be released next month.

voodoo · Sep 16, 2003, 06:45 AM

Originally posted by OptimusG4:
disappointing my a**. He said end of the year, not fall 2003. I don't see why people thought it would be released next month.

nobody did - we expected a DATE - a firm release DATE. 3 months until end of the year == Apple knows exactly when Panther will be released (assuming they will release it before jan 1st 2004)

michaelb · Sep 16, 2003, 06:55 AM

I was disappointed mainly because it seemed from the comments of people getting the ADC builds that it was shaping up as pretty solid and that another month (into October) would be enough.

Traditionally, Steve has used the closest expo to announce an availability date. So, it's disappointment based on historical precedent, that's all.

Although, the suspicious part of me reckons they don't want to have offer Panther free to the large numbers of people who are now going to buy G5s and new PowerBooks...

SMacTech · Sep 16, 2003, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by michaelb:

Although, the suspicious part of me reckons they don't want to have offer Panther free to the large numbers of people who are now going to buy G5s and new PowerBooks...

I think it's fairly safe to just assume that Panther isn't done yet, not that Apple is trying to rape new hardware purchasers of their hard earned money.
I wouldn't want it released too soon, and right now is that time.

Busemann · Sep 16, 2003, 10:05 AM

Its coming in the December quarter. (either oct/nov/dec?)

-Q- · Sep 16, 2003, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by Busemann:
Its coming in the December quarter. (either oct/nov/dec?)

Wouldn't that be the remaining three months of this year?

I think it was announced 'before the end of the year' to give a pleasant surprise to everyone when it ships 'early' in late October.

CharlesS · Sep 16, 2003, 11:21 AM

My crystal ball says that Panther will be released when it is done.

Hopefully not sooner, although that is what some people here seem to want...

dopik · Sep 16, 2003, 11:34 AM

I want 10.3 to be my christmas present so I hope it will indeed ship by the end of the year.

dopik

karbon · Sep 16, 2003, 11:36 AM

Apple said "by the end of this year" because they meant so, not because they wanted people to speculate that it might come sooner.

Now Apple has a lot of time to really polish Panther before releasing it, squashing every little tiny bug in there, and deliver something stable, functional and ready for sale - and touted as the most rock solid operating system of all times.

In the meanwhile, 10.2 works like a charm on my machine!

southtdi · Sep 16, 2003, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by CharlesS:
My crystal ball says that Panther will be released when it is done.

Hopefully not sooner, although that is what some people here seem to want...

Amen to that!! After being a windows user for years and having to deal with each of those products wich could have used several more years of develpoment before being thrown out to the paying public I have no problem waiting another couple of months to wait for the product to be "ready: before it's released

suthercd · Sep 16, 2003, 11:52 AM

I was not surprised. The stream of improvements with each build is impressive, but there are still rough spots. Apple had said end of the year, so the suggestions of an earlier date seemed like "If we wish hard enough, it will happen". Not quite Field of Dreams.

This release is a very big step forward and Apple knows that they had better get it right, especially with all the press about the problems MS is having with security.

All that said, being an ADC member makes it easy to have that perspective. If I were not, I'd be so forking impatient for Panther that I'd be sorely disappointed when my mid-October hopes were dashed.

Craig

KidRed · Sep 16, 2003, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by -Q-:
Wouldn't that be the remaining three months of this year?

I think it was announced 'before the end of the year' to give a pleasant surprise to everyone when it ships 'early' in late October.

That's looking like a good possibility after ready the 7B68 thread. They've been squashing bugs for like 5+ builds now. I can't imagine they'd have to fix many more bugs over a 3 month span. Oct or Nov I say.

::maroma:: · Sep 16, 2003, 12:35 PM

As long as Panther ships before I go home from visiting my parents over Christmas vacation, I'll be happy. I just got my parents to "switch back" to Mac, and there are some features in Panther that they really want. And it'd be best if I could be there to set them up and give them a runthrough of the new stuff.

How's that for a selfish reason to want Panther!

jehu · Sep 16, 2003, 02:36 PM

I started to wonder if the delays were due to inluded open source software that is outside of Apple's control. For example, Samba 3.0 has still not declared a final release candidate. The features that 10.3 server depend on include the new Samba 3.0 code. I am thinking that Apple is now at the mercy of the open source projects that they use as part of their comercial release cycle. Both a strength and a weakness.

Samba News

osxisfun · Sep 16, 2003, 02:59 PM

not sure about that. i read where the python creator guy said they had to make an august date to get the latest version of python inclluded with panther. evidently it took him a week of tweaking, but he made it...

granted samba is more important then python but they could always software update it if there were no big bugs..

Anand · Sep 16, 2003, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by karbon:
Apple said "by the end of this year" because they meant so, not because they wanted people to speculate that it might come sooner.

Now Apple has a lot of time to really polish Panther before releasing it, squashing every little tiny bug in there, and deliver something stable, functional and ready for sale - and touted as the most rock solid operating system of all times.

In the meanwhile, 10.2 works like a charm on my machine!

10.2 works fine but still has a lot of bugs that are strange. Like try using column view with the font size set to 14 or 16. You will not be able to highlight and select certain folders!

The pattern apple is getting into is worrysome - release the OS and patch it over the year but leave it with some bugs - release new OS with old bugs fixed but with new features and charge money for it.

Webscreamer · Sep 16, 2003, 04:16 PM

If you havn't seen my bug list(In Panther 7B68 topic), OS X 10.3 is starting to get the feeling of *almost* finished. But ever build, new bugs pop up and others are fixed. All in all, the bugs have been reduced and the bugs that are left are do not hurt the usability of the OS... much.

I am hoping since there was no release date set, they get a chance to completely redo some things(like the the blurry 10.0 style progress bars and more and updated icons) and really get a great OS on release date.

The little things are what makes an OS great. So give them time and we will have one kick ass release... some time this year!

KidRed · Sep 16, 2003, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by Anand:

The pattern apple is getting into is worrysome - release the OS and patch it over the year but leave it with some bugs - release new OS with old bugs fixed but with new features and charge money for it.

Um, no. That's called, release it because we squashed just about all the bugs 'we' could find. And then, when hundreds of thousands of users with various configs discover 'several' new bugs, release an free update that fixes them.

Or do a m$ and release an OS with 20k bugs then a few years later another OS with a few of the bugs fixed and charge full price for it.

SMacTech · Sep 16, 2003, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by Anand:
10.2 works fine but still has a lot of bugs that are strange. Like try using column view with the font size set to 14 or 16. You will not be able to highlight and select certain folders!

Did you mean 10.3 or 10.2 ? I use 14pt and column view all the time in both and never had the issue you are citing.

Anand · Sep 16, 2003, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by KidRed:
Um, no. That's called, release it because we squashed just about all the bugs 'we' could find. And then, when hundreds of thousands of users with various configs discover 'several' new bugs, release an free update that fixes them.

Or do a m$ and release an OS with 20k bugs then a few years later another OS with a few of the bugs fixed and charge full price for it.

Yes, but there are still bugs in 10.2 that make it almost essential to upgrade. That is not a bad business model - but leaves someone who is stuck with some issues.

nobitacu · Sep 17, 2003, 01:24 AM

Yea, I was disappointed as well.... I was really looking forward to a release date at the keynote...

Ming

CharlesS · Sep 17, 2003, 02:26 AM

The release date is: When it's done.

If you really need a release date to make yourself happy, just assume 12/31/03. Since it will be released sometime this year, you are sure to be pleasantly surprised no matter when it's actually released.

Severed Hand of Skywalker · Sep 17, 2003, 02:36 AM

Everyone go outside and play!

ihobson · Sep 17, 2003, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by CharlesS:
The release date is: When it's done.

If you really need a release date to make yourself happy, just assume 12/31/03. Since it will be released sometime this year, you are sure to be pleasantly surprised no matter when it's actually released.

Yes, I would agree with this, and other sentiments that we're best waiting until it's done.

However, there are a few niggles here. The OS has been announced (now several times) and yet those who would like to buy OS10.2 do not have anything that would give them comfort going forward. Particularly this situation:

Two OS 10.1 users would like to use iChatAV. Cost $300 for two iSight cameras, and two OS10.2 licenses, say another $300. HOWEVER, and here's the rub. iChatAV is a time-limited beta license (for 10.2). So to go this route means committing to going 10.3 at Apple's will or see your iChatAV functionality (and investment) disappear. We would be forced not just to pay the upgrade fee on Apple's terms, but also do the upgrade on Apple's schedule (whether the OS was ready for me or not). I think that's a bit naughty.

Surely, Apple should announce now that new purchasers of 10.2 will have a $15 (or something reasonable) upgrade cost to 10.3 within 3 months of it coming out or whatever? That should similarly apply to purchasers of the new equipment.

Boondoggle · Sep 17, 2003, 01:20 PM

You will be able to buy iChat AV as a stand-alone product to use with 10.2 if you don't want to upgrade to 10.3

dopik · Sep 17, 2003, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by Boondoggle:
You will be able to buy iChat AV as a stand-alone product to use with 10.2 if you don't want to upgrade to 10.3

I think Apple said it will cost $30 has a stand alone product to use with 10.2

dopik

Timo · Sep 17, 2003, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by CharlesS:
The release date is: When it's done.

If you really need a release date to make yourself happy, just assume 12/31/03. Since it will be released sometime this year, you are sure to be pleasantly surprised no matter when it's actually released.

Of course, if you can't wait, you can play around with this bit from macintouch.com:

Quoting an Apple representative, a MacInTouch reader reports that Mac OS X "Panther" may be nearing its first release:
'Attending a User Group meeting in the western U.S. this week, one of the presentations was by Apple, touting Panther. According to Sandy Bozek, Senior Technology Manager for Creative Markets, Panther is two weeks away from golden master status.'

FWIW

MrK · Sep 18, 2003, 02:54 PM

It isn't two weeks away unless they solve some major bugs, but it could easily be a month. They keep saying end of the year so they have a cushion. After all the bitching about late G5 computers there is no way they are gonna announce something else and miss the release date. I bet the 12" PBs ome faster than a month too. Trying to build goodwill by reverse PR spin. Expect the next few things to come faster than announced...

Boondoggle · Oct 26, 2003, 09:18 PM

the end of the year came early, din't it???

Spheric Harlot · Oct 26, 2003, 10:15 PM

That was a fun re-read!

I'm with Severed Hand:

Everyone go outside and play!

-s*

Boondoggle · Oct 27, 2003, 07:58 PM

Everyone go outside and play!

it is raining and that will put out my cigar...