[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by TheoCryst 

Problem with the translucent menu bar: what happens when you have a black desktop? Will the text become unreadable?

The menubar is translucent, not transparent.

[kmkkid]

Do you guys think the Betas GUI is going to be the GM GUI? A GUI isn't necessarily a feature, so even though the beta is feature complete maybe we can still have a glimmer of hope that the abomination that is the Leopard Beta GUI may be changed *shrug* Just a thought....

[shinykaro]

Originally Posted by Boston_Designer 

Well - I'm in the camp of being underwhelmed because I let the idea of "Top Secret Features" run amok in my brain for a few months. I'm not saying that the new Leopard features aren't impressive... I kinda like almost all of it. The problem is, 'most' of that stuff seemed like logical evolutions of current iterations of technologies. No surprises, really.

We've seen coverflow before, we've been discussing the idea of "stacks" for quite some time, The dock breaking the plane from 2D to a 3D plane is different and possibly better... but still not a quantum leap, the ability to preview documents other than a generic icon is not a new idea, we already knew about all of the Time Machine, iChat improvements, Spaces, etc. etc. etc.

It's all a great improvement over Tiger... I agree 100%.

I just wish I didn't allow myself to read too-far into "Top Secret". I set myself up for a letdown. I was hoping/expecting some major paradigm shifts in User Interface / User Interaction.

I will still be there buying it once it's available. I was sold on the FIRST introduction of it LAST year.

I think Steve could-have gotten-away with never MENTIONING the "secret" features and just waiting until the announcement of it to reveal the additional features. But - he DID build the anticipation, didn't he?

DITTO!

We've had too much time to imagine the possibilities and a good history of groundbreaking changes and improvements, so the features unveiled today feel as underwhelming as the last few hardware updates.

Is it too much to ask for Apple to give me something akin to a religious epiphany?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by kmkkid 

Do you guys think the Betas GUI is going to be the GM GUI? A GUI isn't necessarily a feature, so even though the beta is feature complete maybe we can still have a glimmer of hope that the abomination that is the Leopard Beta GUI may be changed *shrug* Just a thought....

It will probably by similar, but I agree that they may well decide to change some things.

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by kmkkid 

Do you guys think the Betas GUI is going to be the GM GUI? A GUI isn't necessarily a feature, so even though the beta is feature complete maybe we can still have a glimmer of hope that the abomination that is the Leopard Beta GUI may be changed *shrug* Just a thought....

I remember that the current iteration of OSX underwent slight GUI changes between the keynote demonstration and GM. Most noticeable was how they changed the menubar: they removed the blue end caps from either side.

[rubaiyat]

Gosh I think Leopard is just so wonderful and didn't Mr Jobs look nice in his turtleneck!

I don't think people should be nasty about the "Top Secret" though. I mean if you let everybody know about it, it wouldn't be a top secret would it?

I expect Apple will continue to keep it a secret for as long as possible. Probably until at least OSX 10.6. That would be the right thing to do, I say, by then people won't be talking about it any more and you could tell them what it was all along.

Then it would be a nice surprise.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

I hope they come up with new open/save dialogs, copy windows and scroll bars.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

Gosh I think Leopard is just so wonderful and didn't Mr Jobs look nice in his turtleneck!

I don't think people should be nasty about the "Top Secret" though. I mean if you let everybody know about it, it wouldn't be a top secret would it?

I expect Apple will continue to keep it a secret for as long as possible. Probably until at least OSX 10.6. That would be the right thing to do, I say, by then people won't be talking about it any more and you could tell them what it was all along.

Then it would be a nice surprise.

Um, no.

If you want a product not to suck, you have to test it with all its features in.

The beta is feature complete. There will be no more new features that are not present in that build. To do so would result in a very buggy final product.

If you think Apple is going to stick features in at the last minute, do a search of this forum for "4K78" and see what happens in the real world.

[Kerrigan]

CharlesS, you obviously were not picking up on the sarcasm...!

I mean, holding off Leopard's secret feature until 10.6 just to surprise everyone after they've forgotten about it; I chuckled aloud when I read that.

[WJMoore]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

The menubar is translucent, not transparent.

Excellent point, I was sceptical how it would work too so I tried out (by Photoshopping). Even with the menu bar at 50% transparency with a totally black background its still pretty usable. Don't get me wrong though, I still think the whole transparent menu bar idea is stupid.

[moonmonkey]

I guess a lot of people will be putting white stripes across the top of their desktop pictures, I know I will.

[kilechki]

This is really disproportionate, nearly nobody saw how the thing was in person and there are already threats to stripe with white all the desktop pictures in the world?
Crazy.

I, for one, like the lighter style of the desktop.

My main griefs would be :
- the reinvention of the finder is rather uninnovative. At least there should be some "pane" allowing to easily see and edit metadata of selected files. Also, a breadcrumb bar in icon view seems to be lacking.
- the new unified theme is heavy and uninspired. The first screenshots of mail, finder and ical make them look really unelegant. Mail's former look (as in Tiger) was way more pleasant.
- no new adress book. Although its UI, behavior and abilities are really dated and uncoherent w/r/t the rest of the OS.

Other than that, I'm curious to see those "revolutionary apps" that were promised, and the new iLife/iWork.

[mdc]

I wonder if QuickLook works in the File > Open or File > Save windows? It makes sense that it does and that would be a great feature. Especially when attaching a file to an email or something. Being able to make sure that is the one you actually want to attach.

The more I browse around Apple.com the more excited I get for 10.5. I think they've done a great job. Unified look, QuickLook, TimeMachine, Spaces. I'm good

[davesimondotcom]

I wonder if they plan on fixing inconsistencies in things like the Open/Save dialogs. You know, how you can click on a disc in the Finder and start typing jump to a filename.

But in Open/Save, you can't do that without clicking the column first...

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Maxasia.net - Mac OS X Leopard: Hello Again?

[mdc]

Leopard looks like... Vista.

I understand that she writes for a Microsoft blog, but she can't be that blind. . . and based on some of her points, that dumb, can she?

QuickLook: Live file previews — just like the thumbnail preview capability available in Vista.

Maybe she was watching a different keynote to the one I saw, but QuickLook goes a little further than "thumbnail previews."

64-bitness: Leopard is the first 64-bit only version of a desktop client. Vista comes in 32-bit and 64-bit varieties. And most expect Windows Seven will still be available in 32-bit flavors. Until 32-bit machines go away, it seems like a good idea to offer 32-bit operating systems.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but it sounds like she is under the impression that there should be a 32bit version of 10.5 since there are still 32bit CPUs out there. I think she missed the part where it was made clear that, unlike Windows, 10.5 doesn't need a 64bit and a 32bit version.

Core animation: Not sure what the Vista comparison is here. The demo reminded me of Microsoft Max photo-sharing application. The WWDC developers attending the Jobs keynote didn’t seem wowed with this functionality.

I like how she compares an underlying developer tool with a photo sharing application. . . after seeing a Core Animation powering hundreds of videos while letting the user search through them.

Dashboard with widgets. Isn’t this like the Vista Sidebar with gadgets?

My favorite quote

[OreoCookie]

Regarding the semitransparent menu, I'm not really sure what to think of it. Some people have claimed that despite their initial reservations, they love it. Hmmm. On the other hand, most Pros already use a reduced contrast interface (e. g. FC, Lightroom or Aperture) so I guess I'll have to wait till I try it, but I wouldn't dismiss it right away.

[mdc]

I think it is going to rely a lot on the desktop picture.
I have never been a big fan of very distracting desktop pictures, like the grass one.
I don't find the menubar that bad in this Mac OS X 10.5 Server image, but I don't like it in this 10.5 client image.

At the end of the day isn't all the debate about the transparency a little pointless since it's been said that you can turn it off if you don't like it? (Not aimed at you OreoCookie, just to everyone in general)

[rubaiyat]

Did I miss something, but where did Apple say the semi-translucent menubar was adjustable or could be turned off?

If we could turn of bad GUI ideas that would be the beginning of a very slippery slope for OSX.

[mdc]

http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lou...6/#post3402739

[hldan]

Originally Posted by Boston_Designer 

Well - I'm in the camp of being underwhelmed because I let the idea of "Top Secret Features" run amok in my brain for a few months.

We've seen coverflow before, we've been discussing the idea of "stacks" for quite some time, The dock breaking the plane from 2D to a 3D plane is different and possibly better... but still not a quantum leap, the ability to preview documents other than a generic icon is not a new idea, we already knew about all of the Time Machine, iChat improvements, Spaces, etc. etc. etc.

It's all a great improvement over Tiger... I agree 100%.

I just wish I didn't allow myself to read too-far into "Top Secret". I set myself up for a letdown. I was hoping/expecting some major paradigm shifts in User Interface / User Interaction.

I think Steve could-have gotten-away with never MENTIONING the "secret" features and just waiting until the announcement of it to reveal the additional features. But - he DID build the anticipation, didn't he?

You are not alone about being underwhelmed but it's not because Apple didn't wow us, Leopard is really fantastic when you think about it. It's the hype before the show. People get thoughts into their head that something magical is going to be shown when in fact it's just going to be really cool features that will increase your computing productivity.
Everything introduced (that we had not seen before) is a welcome hello to my computing needs. I was never really a complainer about the Finder but now that it works like iTunes it's really awesome.
Think about how "WOW'D" the Windows users REALLY were when they saw what Vista offered. Anyone that had seen the Mac didn't get all that WOW'D" with Vista. Nothing really new.
Wait until we all get Leopard installed in October, many other features will be unveiled once we use it and I'll bet it will be fast! I just hope Apple got rid of the beachball waiting cursor, I hate it. With the new unified look I don't know why they kept the blue gel scroll bars and the gel traffic lights? Oh well, it doesn't matter, I'll be the first in line the night Leopard is released.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

Did I miss something, but where did Apple say the semi-translucent menubar was adjustable or could be turned off?

If we could turn of bad GUI ideas that would be the beginning of a very slippery slope for OSX.

You can already change a lot of GUI settings (such as scrollbars, theme color, font smoothing). Why not?

[passmaster16]

Originally Posted by hldan 

You are not alone about being underwhelmed but it's not because Apple didn't wow us, Leopard is really fantastic when you think about it. It's the hype before the show. People get thoughts into their head that something magical is going to be shown when in fact it's just going to be really cool features that will increase your computing productivity.

Agreed although I think Steve probably added to the anticipation by mentioning the fact that there were more features that he did not want to disclose (i.e. top secret features). This probably put an additional expectation level that really didn't need to be there. Looking at the presented features at the keynote, and knowing that Vista was already released, why did he feel compelled to withhold those features to begin with? Maybe some of those features were not ready to demo to the public when he last spoke about Leopard which is why he approached it that way.

[mac freak]

Regarding "stacks"...

So far as I can tell, they appear to offer little functionality over a feature that's been in OS X since at least 10.1: you can stick a folder in the dock. Right-click on it, and you get a menu of its contents...click one and launch. The only difference seems to be that "stacks" are left-click activated and look nicer. But there doesn't seem to be more functionality (there's likely less as it doesn't seem you can easily access nested folders). You can of course also left-click a folder in the dock as well to open it in a window...just like "stacks" in that grid mode.

Am I missing something or do y'all see what I mean?

[monkeybrain]

I've been playing around with Menushade to see what the transparent/translucent/see-through/misty-glass menubar might be like. I think it works quite nicely for apps that don't take the whole screen up, for instance when I was using Dictionary or Textedit. It really puts the focus on the window rather than the bar.

The problem comes when you maximise an app to fill the screen (which I do a lot, being on a Macbook), then it just looks weird, like something is missing at the top.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by mac freak 

Regarding "stacks"...

So far as I can tell, they appear to offer little functionality over a feature that's been in OS X since at least 10.1: you can stick a folder in the dock. Right-click on it, and you get a menu of its contents...click one and launch. The only difference seems to be that "stacks" are left-click activated and look nicer. But there doesn't seem to be more functionality (there's likely less as it doesn't seem you can easily access nested folders). You can of course also left-click a folder in the dock as well to open it in a window...just like "stacks" in that grid mode.

Am I missing something or do y'all see what I mean?

That's exactly what I thought. Specifically, it's a reincarnation of the pop-up folder idea from OS 9 by way of docked folders.

[keithwan]

Will the OS X Leopard 64bits run on my Macbook Core duo 32bit?

[Chuckit]

There is only one version of Leopard. It's both 32-bit and 64-bit. A 32-bit computer will not be able to run a 64-bit-only application, but there are very few of those running around.

[Peter]

Originally Posted by keithwan 

Will the OS X Leopard 64bits run on my Macbook Core duo 32bit?

no of course not - your MacBook is 32bit, so the leopard you use will be 32bit

[simonm]

To all those saying they wanted to be blown away...what were you hoping for?

[JonoMarshall]

I expected some sort of free Tiger upgrade via Software Update that had a little counter and beeper, when the counter hit zero my MacBook should have rendered me unconcious, so I'd wake up content and covered in thermal paste.

Apple never listen to their customers.. *sigh*

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Peter 

no of course not - your MacBook is 32bit, so the leopard you use will be 32bit

I think he was asking whether there will be a different version for 32-bit machines, to which the answer is, of course,

"No; the standard Leopard will automatically run in 32-bit mode on your 32-bit machine. There is only one version. This isn't Microsoft. Welcome to Macintosh."

[analogika]

Originally Posted by JonoMarshall 

I expected some sort of free Tiger upgrade via Software Update that had a little counter and beeper, when the counter hit zero my MacBook should have rendered me unconcious, so I'd wake up content and covered in thermal paste.

Leopard bukkake!

[shinykaro]

Originally Posted by mdc 

Leopard looks like... Vista.

Dashboard with widgets. Isn't this like the Vista Sidebar with gadgets?

My favorite quote

HAHAHAHAHA.

Can someone please send this woman the David Pogue video on Vista and OS X similiarities?

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by monkeybrain 

The problem comes when you maximise an app to fill the screen (which I do a lot, being on a Macbook), then it just looks weird, like something is missing at the top.

That's what I said. It is very distracting when you have a maximised window. Worse is that if you use an app like Maya or FCP then it makes it hard to read all the menu options because there are many. If your wallpaper has a high contrast pattern it will make the text look like sh!te.

[keithwan]

Thanks Peter, i be looking forward to upgrade my Macbook, The Leopard is more advance then Window Vista, window is more clumsy........trying too hard to look like OS X

[kman42]

Regarding screen sharing in the new Finder: doesn't it seem awkward that you would select a networked computer in the Finder and then share the screen with whomever happens to be logged in on that computer? I can understand this behavior in iChat as you probably want to interact with whomever you are chatting with. But if I connect with a computer in the Finder, it's kind of random who might be logged in on that computer and they could just decline my attempt, right?.

It would make sense if you could log into your (or any) account on the remote computer from the Finder and then interact with it without interrupting anyone else who might be logged into a different account similar to X11, but I don't think OSX's remote desktop facilities can do this. I don't have much experience with it, but I think it works by just sharing whatever is displayed on the remote screen at the time.

kman

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by shinykaro 

HAHAHAHAHA.

Can someone please send this woman the David Pogue video on Vista and OS X similiarities?

I didn't feel like registering for the site, but I did send her this e-mail:

Okay, really. Since you admit you aren't a Mac user, and that you've ever only been to two keynotes ever... perhaps the best thing to do in such a situation is to do some research before you go and put out inaccurate information in front of the entire world.

For example, you noticed that the Dashboard with widgets looks like the Vista Sidebar with gadgets. All we Mac users noticed that too, when the feature was announced in Vista, because the Dashboard with widgets was a feature of Tiger, the *previous* version of OS X, which preceded Vista. What you saw in Leopard was a few minor new features added to the already existing Dashboard. If you go play with any machine running OS X Tiger, you can see this for yourself. Now, as to why Vista's gadgets look so similar to Tiger's widgets, that's a question you'll have to ask the Vista designers.

The Finder's search bar does look a lot like Vista's Instant Search. And once again, it also looks like *Tiger's* search bar, which predated Vista. Yes, once again, Jobs showed you some enhancements to the old functionality, and if you play with an OS X Tiger machine, you'll notice that same similarity. And yes, thanks for pointing out that Vista's search feature does look a lot like Tiger's.

You also say that QuickLook looks like thumbnails - well, that's true in a really superficial way, although QuickLook is actually quite a bit different in the way it previews files. However, OS X has had thumbnail preview capability, just like in Vista, ever since the very first 10.0 release back in 2001, over six years ago.

So yeah, I'm sorry Apple doesn't immediately remove its features that it's had forever just because Microsoft decides to implement something really similar at some point.

Edit: I just received this reply:

Originally Posted by Mary Jo Foley

Hi. I wasn't talking about who copied whom. Or asking Apple to remove anything. Sorry if it seemed like that, based on your reading.

Here's my udpated post. I am still looking for features in Leopard that don't have a Vista equivalent. So please chime in if you have anything to suggest. mjf

� Leopard vs. Vista: Take two | All about Microsoft | ZDNet.com

[hldan]

Originally Posted by mac freak 

Regarding "stacks"...

So far as I can tell, they appear to offer little functionality over a feature that's been in OS X since at least 10.1: you can stick a folder in the dock. Right-click on it, and you get a menu of its contents...click one and launch. The only difference seems to be that "stacks" are left-click activated and look nicer. But there doesn't seem to be more functionality (there's likely less as it doesn't seem you can easily access nested folders). You can of course also left-click a folder in the dock as well to open it in a window...just like "stacks" in that grid mode.

Am I missing something or do y'all see what I mean?

Yes, you are missing something. If you look on Apple's website and play the videos they explain what the purpose of the new features are. Stacks is designed to keep clutter off your desktop. Downloads from webpages and emails will go into the stack instead of landing on the desktop producing clutter.
Before you say, "Well I can still do that by cleaning up my desktop and create a big folder in the Dock to right click on", you won't do it, not now , not ever. It's really a pain trying to keep the desktop clean and Stacks will be a huge benefit for a lot of people.
The new features in Leopard aren't suppose to be magic potions, they are suppose to solve certain computing issues that slow down productivity. If you don't need any of them then Tiger is still a great OS.

[hldan]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

That's what I said. It is very distracting when you have a maximised window. Worse is that if you use an app like Maya or FCP then it makes it hard to read all the menu options because there are many. If your wallpaper has a high contrast pattern it will make the text look like sh!te.

Didn't anyone see the keynote? Steve Jobs said that the semi-transparent menu bar automatically adjusts for the type of wallpaper picture you use. Everybody is so uptight about the menu bar. Apple wouldn't design it that way if it wasn't usable.

[mdc]

@CharlesS, her new post just smells of her trying to save face.

@hldan, I did hear Steve say that, but that was all he mentioned of it, and never showed it off. He could've changed the desktop picture and showed how it adjusts. I'm not accusing him of lying or anything, but the only thing we know is he said that one line and that's it. No clarification as to what he meant. Does the menubar actually adjust in the sense that it 'intelligently' changes it's opacity depending on what Desktop Picture you have set? Or is it just that it's opaque and looks good on all desktop pictures? Who knows. I'm sure we'll find out closer to October.

I have a question about Spaces. The website says you can set certain applications to show on certain Spaces. I figure that since Spaces has been in a few betas already, maybe someone knows. Is it possible to set applications to be on all Spaces?
I'd like my iTunes mini player and iChat for example to be on all Spaces and then have the rest of the applications zoom in and out.

[kilechki]

If you try MenuShade, you can see that translucency does not look at all like Leopard's desktop. As seen on apple website, text seems to be opaque with a slight halo around it. The translucent background seems also to play on contrast/saturation.

I'm quite sure they did check that the text was readible on a dark background.
I'm not so sure, however, that it looks nice on a small screen with full-screen windows.

Whatever, I like the desktop's look way more than those bulky, metal buttons in toolbars. It also seems than roll-overs are gone, even in Mail - which is sad, since it allowed to see if you were clicking on a button or on the window.
With unified windows, I always find myself dragging windows when I just wanted to quickly clic on a button.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by mac freak 

Regarding "stacks"...

So far as I can tell, they appear to offer little functionality over a feature that's been in OS X since at least 10.1: you can stick a folder in the dock. Right-click on it, and you get a menu of its contents...click one and launch. The only difference seems to be that "stacks" are left-click activated and look nicer. But there doesn't seem to be more functionality (there's likely less as it doesn't seem you can easily access nested folders). You can of course also left-click a folder in the dock as well to open it in a window...just like "stacks" in that grid mode.

Am I missing something or do y'all see what I mean?

With Stacks, you don't have to create a folder. (Otherwise, you're basically right.)

[Kerrigan]

Can stacks be customized in the same was as smart folders? Steve said something about assigning a stack for downloads.. how are these preferences set?

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

Can stacks be customized in the same was as smart folders? Steve said something about assigning a stack for downloads.. how are these preferences set?

Seems like you just drag any folder to it and it becomes a stack. You really just need to make a folder on the computer anywhere... drag it to the dock.. and tell safari to save files to that folder.

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by hldan 

Didn't anyone see the keynote? Steve Jobs said that the semi-transparent menu bar automatically adjusts for the type of wallpaper picture you use. Everybody is so uptight about the menu bar. Apple wouldn't design it that way if it wasn't usable.

It adjusts for the color and brightness of your wallpaper. A pattern would disrupt the look of the text. Apple has to take a leaf out of Vista here and apply a filter to the transparency on menu and dock so that anything underneath will be blurred.

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

I didn't feel like registering for the site, but I did send her this e-mail:

Charlie man Mac OS had thumbnail previews way before 10.0.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

Charlie man

Not my name.

Mac OS had thumbnail previews way before 10.0.

Even if that were true, which it isn't, it would be irrelevant.

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Not my name.


Even if that were true, which it isn't, it would be irrelevant.

Charlie man my Photoshop work had thumbnail previews back in the OS 7.x days.

[besson3c]

His name is "CharlesS", and mine is "besson3c". Pleased to make your acquaintance!