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Man Packs Eagle · Feb 10, 2004, 12:50 AM

A lot of people on the forum seem to have the 20" cinema display. As I had it on my desk together with the 20.1" Formac over Christmas, I thought I'd give a comparitive review for anyone who's thinking of buying a new display or just wants to sympathise with me.

I actually intended to buy the 17" Formac but wimped out in the shop at the last moment because I was afraid of a stuck pixel. (I had one on an iMac and a digital camera). So I sprung for the 20.1" because Formac have a zero dead pixel policy on that model � which is what I want when I'm spending a thousand pounds.

The Formac display was excellent, not as well made as the Apple, but decently designed and (in my opinion) a much more useful resolution and ratio. Unfortunately as soon as I fetched it out of the box it was obvious that it had been used before � scratches on the body, dirty feet etc. so it went back.

The next model arrived without a power supply! When I finally fired it up I found I had two dodgy pixels - one black and one green, both towards the edges. Additionally the 'touch sensitive' brightness buttons weren't touch sensitive at all, in fact they required nothing less than brute force to get a result, so it went back.

By now it was Christmas eve so I shutdown and ate my figgy pudding and did some thinking about what to do. A few days later on a whim I bought the 20" Cinema Display. Okay the ratio was nuts but boy was it sharp, noticably clearer than the Formac and if you're coming from an ageing CRT jaw-droppingly impressive. First impressions were good. For example I was able to carry it home without slipping a disc (For some reason, the Formac box weighs more than the screen) and the Apple display is beautifully finished - with the sole exception of the tacky chrome logo. It also has a lovely weight and balance to it. But then I turned it on. Yes, the image was blindingly, heartbreakingly sharp but so was the stuck green pixel in the middle of the screen. Whereas the red pixel on the iMac screen wasn't always visible, this was like a traffic light, visible all the time, except on the white start-up screen. When I started dragging windows I got a further shock - the pin sharp image turned into a shuddering blur. Yes, folks, there's a reason why Apple don't publish the pixel refresh rates of their LCD screens, because they're so terrible. Pixel refresh wasn't an issue with the Formac, in fact I hadn't considered it at all, and I predominantly video edit.

Anyway, when I stopped kicking my furniture around the room I considered these facts. Of the four LCD screens I'd had (including the iMac) three had dead or stuck pixels. Two out of two for Apple. Both the Formac displays had been unsatisfactory (not in terms of specification, only in quality control, but that's as important). Even if the Apple screen had not had a rogue pixel it wouldn't have been suitable with that slooow refresh rate.

What should I do? I didn't feel like buying another Formac � who knows what might have been wrong with it? Maybe nothing at all in the box this time?

Why would I buy another Apple TFT? Third time lucky?

This is what I did. I bought a CRT. That's right. A Mitsubishi 930SB. Almost �800 cheaper than the Cinema Display. No it doesn't look as good on my desk (infact I haven't got a desk anymore) and no it isn't as sharp but in every other way it's superior and it's almost �800 cheaper. I'm going on holiday at the end of this week.

Dr.Michael · Feb 11, 2004, 01:15 PM

Hi,

I bought a 20 inch cinema display before christmas. Good to hear that it is better than the formac. I also had a hard time to decide.

The ACD refresh rates are bad. This can be read in any review.

I also had a green pixel on my display. In my opinion this is ok because 100% fault free is still not guaranteed in the manufacturing process of the tfts.

You can gently massage the bad pixel. It will either start working well or completely fail. When it fails you would have a black spot that is nearly invisible and does not bother any more.

spiky_dog · Feb 11, 2004, 05:57 PM

you could have always gone with the Dell 20.1" 2001FP. they claim 16.something ms response...

various deals available from the different dell sub-stores: http://search.dell.com/results.aspx?...2001fp&x=0&y=0

Tenacious Dyl · 06:29 PM

Dell LCD Screens are worse than any LCDS I have ever seen....

My friend has owned 2 Dell LCDS, BOTH OF WHICH upon receiving them, cannot even display a single color. To test what he was telling me about.... we would set his background image to a solid color, say blue or green....

Some of the screen was that color... yay for dell... the other 40% was a different shade green. Not just from bad lighting... it was not a backlight problem. There would be different patches and 'boxes' of the monitor with this. It was hideous.

We called Dell tech support they said... and I quote....

"there is nothing we can do for you, except to give you some advice about the problem... if the colors being displayed get too bad" (they slowly get worse and worse by the way, the difference in the 'same color' becomes worse, and some areas develope a static appearance) "then you can take off the back panel, and unhook, then rehook the cables from the board to the display's cable".

Yes that is it.... my friend had to take off the plastic panel, unplug the connection from the actual LCD to the green-board, and plug it back in, EVERY time he wanted to view an actually decent screen (like I said above... it slowly got worse with use and time).

What did he do? A few months later, he went and bought another dell that came w/ an LCD Screen. Same problem, but not quite as severe as the original LCD he had. They are different models, but both the same size screen.

From his experience alone, totally terrible LCD's, on two different models, with the only solution of "take it apart and replug it" disgusts me.

I will never purchase a dell product. Ever.

Their commercials seem to target people who think they know how to use computers but truly have only mastered "power on" and "check my email".

spiky_dog · Feb 11, 2004, 07:25 PM

hmm, interesting. as competing anecdotal evidence, my alma mater's terminal room had at least 30 Dell 20" lcds in full time service, and i heard of no complaints.

ratlater · Feb 12, 2004, 01:32 PM

I don't have color issues with new Dell FP on my desk at work, but it looks like crap compared to my 15" powerbook screen sitting right next to it. The Dell display looks grainy and washed out. At home I have a 20" Cinema Display and it is outstanding. No pixel problems and gorgeous. It's bright and sharp and I don't refresh issues of any kind watching movies, doing video editing or dragging windows around. I haven't played any games on it, so perhaps there would a refresh issue there.

-matt

BZ · Feb 12, 2004, 02:49 PM

This is all very very bad news for me!

I soooo want a new 20+ display to go with my RevB Powermac (still waiting Steve), but the current lineup just looks really old. The prices have not dropped and the product is the same as it was a year ago (released 2/28/2003).

So, I have going back and forth on what to do if Apple does NOT release a new version of the LCD with the RevB G5.

Option A) Buy a 23" Apple LCD. They seem to have good ratings, certainly big enough for me for a few years (3-4) and combined with a PowerMac covered by AppleCare.

Option B) Buy 2 x Dell 20" LCDs. They seem to be rated pretty well, can be had for $850 (on sale now and again) and would certainly be a lot of monitor.

Of course, I am REALLY hoping for...

Option C) Apple releases a new line of LCDs, 20", 24" 30" and all with nice G5 matching metal.

Comments? Suggestions?

BZ

macxtal · Feb 12, 2004, 10:19 PM

Waiting for a display update, was thinking about the 20" but will probably get the 23" as I stare at the monitor 10-12 hours+ per day, it might as well be a damn nice monitor.

Man Packs Eagle · Feb 13, 2004, 03:23 PM

Hey, nobody took any notice of what I said! I'm not recomending the 20" Cinema display, I think it's a collossal waste of money. If money really is no object to you and you never have anything moving on your screen except maybe the cursor and you like the strange ratio, buy one. But I think you're putting style before usability (and sense).

In my opinion the Formac is a better buy because it doesn't have the refresh problems of the Apple panel and it's cheaper. It also displays at 1600 x 1200 native which is supported by most games and this is a perfect size for video and InDesign for example. But I wouldn't buy another one. I'm hacked off with the whole LCD Russian Roulette of stuck pixels, slow refresh rates and poor colour depth. My Mitsubishi CRT was perfect out of the box and it can't drop a pixel. It's just not as sexy. But I use my Mac for work you know...

Nobody has explained the strange ratio of the Apple screen. A widescreen display isn't better for editing video because a longer timeline isn't more useful than a deeper one - for compositing.

BZ, don't hold on for a redesigned display. What are you doing? You could be dead before they get revamped, and some of Apple's designs have been less than pretty lately. They could foul it up!

Buy a pair of CRT's and treat yourself to a big haul of software. Why do you have a computer? If you can wait for a new model and still get your work done maybe you don't need a new model!

What is DELL?

BZ · Feb 13, 2004, 04:27 PM

- I don't want CRT because of heat/eye strain/power use/space. Yes, I can get a really big nice CRT for $1800, but that is not the point.

- I have not seen the really poor performance on games etc on the Apple LCDs, been reading up on it and have not found it either.

- Yeah, I don't work 9-5 on my Mac, but I work 5-10(pm and weekends) and it is both play and fun. My theory has always been buy the best you can as soon as they release them, keep them 4 years but upgrade them a little after about 2.5/3 years.

So, yes... I want the Apple 23" LCD, but I would so much rather have an Apple 24" LCD for the same price, in a new case, with USB 2.0.

Viewsonic does look like they make some nice LCDs, maybe a pair of 20" from them would do me just fine.

BZ

Originally posted by Man Packs Eagle:
Hey, nobody took any notice of what I said! I'm not recomending the 20" Cinema display, I think it's a collossal waste of money. If money really is no object to you and you never have anything moving on your screen except maybe the cursor and you like the strange ratio, buy one. But I think you're putting style before usability (and sense).

In my opinion the Formac is a better buy because it doesn't have the refresh problems of the Apple panel and it's cheaper. It also displays at 1600 x 1200 native which is supported by most games and this is a perfect size for video and InDesign for example. But I wouldn't buy another one. I'm hacked off with the whole LCD Russian Roulette of stuck pixels, slow refresh rates and poor colour depth. My Mitsubishi CRT was perfect out of the box and it can't drop a pixel. It's just not as sexy. But I use my Mac for work you know...

Nobody has explained the strange ratio of the Apple screen. A widescreen display isn't better for editing video because a longer timeline isn't more useful than a deeper one - for compositing.

BZ, don't hold on for a redesigned display. What are you doing? You could be dead before they get revamped, and some of Apple's designs have been less than pretty lately. They could foul it up!

Buy a pair of CRT's and treat yourself to a big haul of software. Why do you have a computer? If you can wait for a new model and still get your work done maybe you don't need a new model!

What is DELL?

BZ · Feb 13, 2004, 04:57 PM

Just an update...

I went back and looked at the MacRumors buying guide and last year (1/28/03) Apple released both speed bumped PowerMacs (G4 bleh!) and the new LCDs 17/20/23.

So I still have high hopes that Apple will do the same this year.

Please... please... please... please...

BZ

Man Packs Eagle · Feb 13, 2004, 11:04 PM

Okay BZ I can't argue with your reasons for not wanting a CRT (except 'eyestrain' � eyestrain?) but as I pointed out in my original post I had these monitors on my desk over Christmas. It doesn't matter what it says on the company websites I saw the relative performance with my own eyes. I didn't have to stick with CRT I could've had another Cinema display. Although I am concerned with style, I prefer to choose a monitor for image quality and usability first. The �800.00 saving was just a bonus.

The 20" Cinema display ran Aliens V Predator 2 at a non native resolution. I couldn't get it to run 1050 down for example. My graphics card is a Radeon Pro 9000. The image blurred noticably with movement, in fact it was sluggish. The Formac ran fine at 1600 x 1200 and didn't blur, although it wasn't as good as the CRT.

One thing to consider with LCDs is they just don't look good at non-native resolution. Unless you have a very narrow number of programmes you use on your machine, you'll want to change res from time to time.

BZ, I take on board what you say about buying the best as soon as it comes out and I'd be pretty hacked off if Apple brought out a 24" display after I'd spent a �1500.00 on a 23". But that is what will happen. If you wait long enough there will probably be a 40" Cinema display. I dropped out of all that fear and anxiety. If my CRT only lasts a year I don't care because it was so cheap.

There's always a 'better' Mac around the corner. Sure I'd like a dual 3GHz. But I don't need it. I don't even need a dual 2GHZ. Do you?

masugu · Feb 13, 2004, 11:54 PM

AAAAAARRRRGH!!!!

Why did I read this thread?

I literally JUST unwrapped my 20" Cinema display and set it next to my PCs Dell 21" - 19.5 viewable flat CRT. The Cinema Display was just delivered today from Amazon.com. Got it with free shipping + no sales tax!

I got this to match up with my 1GHz Ti PB. Of course, the DVI adapter I ordered from Amazon was ACTUALLY shipped out by J & R electronics...and DID NOT arrive today. So I am SOL and on the edge of my seat hoping I do not have any stuck or dead pixels.

Yeesh!

I took a gamble and bought this with some 2003 bonus money...but I am definitely waiting for the new Rev B. G5 - say 2.5GHz or whatever.

chrisutley · Feb 14, 2004, 10:33 AM

The refresh on my 20" ACD is not a big deal. I watch movies and edit them on it all the time. There are plenty of other pros I know that do the same.

You need to see if with your own two eyes before panicking. I think most folks will find it to be a non-issue. I mean I play Unreal on this thing, it looks great. If you are a broadcast video guy or a hardcore gamer, then get a CRT for crying out loud.

masugu · Feb 14, 2004, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by chrisutley:
The refresh on my 20" ACD is not a big deal. I watch movies and edit them on it all the time. There are plenty of other pros I know that do the same.

You need to see if with your own two eyes before panicking. I think most folks will find it to be a non-issue. I mean I play Unreal on this thing, it looks great. If you are a broadcast video guy or a hardcore gamer, then get a CRT for crying out loud.

I play games on my PC - Dell 21" Flat CRT. No worries. I plan to do graphics, iMovie editing etc. on the 20" ACD. I should be fine...I guess am also thinking the new displays will be some wickedly cool aluminum thing...

Dr.Michael · Feb 15, 2004, 06:43 PM

Nobody has explained the strange ratio of the Apple screen. A widescreen display isn't better for editing video because a longer timeline isn't more useful than a deeper one - for compositing.

I think its because of the dvd format 16:9.
There is another reason: As a programmer and as someone who uses Photoshop its great to have the extra space at the sides for project windows or toolbars

What is DELL?

Hehe, right you are!

I have to support other posters. I once had to work with a Dell latitude c840 notebook. The screen had a incredible resolution (hurts the eyes after a while) and it was nearly impossible to distinguish between red, green, blue and black letters. Programmers need this feature (syntax coloring). Ridiculous crapbooks!!!!!!!!

But dell offers an increadible 24 hours-worldwide-in-house service. And they offer dumb guy insurance which means they repair your peace of crap for free even if you ducked it under water (which is the best you can do with dells. But its really hard to get rid of them).

Thats why they exist. Very secure investment. The hardware is lousy.

masugu · Feb 15, 2004, 07:01 PM

Thats why they exist. Very secure investment. The hardware is lousy. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hmm...not sure I agree. I love Macs, don't get me wrong. But my Dell with a 2.2GHz P4 is pretty sweet performance-wise, design wise...well, it is under the desk, I'll leave it at that. I also have an ATI 9800 Pro in it. Games are liquid smooth.

Dr.Michael · Feb 16, 2004, 06:08 AM

Hmm...not sure I agree. I love Macs, don't get me wrong. But my Dell with a 2.2GHz P4 is pretty sweet performance-wise, design wise...well, it is under the desk, I'll leave it at that. I also have an ATI 9800 Pro in it. Games are liquid smooth.

You are right, Dells are fast and use very up to date internals. But the little things that make the difference between a box and a pleasant experience were completely absent in all dells I have ever used.

But thats personal taste. The display problems are facts.

masugu · Feb 16, 2004, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by Dr.Michael:
You are right, Dells are fast and use very up to date internals. But the little things that make the difference between a box and a pleasant experience were completely absent in all dells I have ever used.

But thats personal taste. The display problems are facts.

Agree. Dells are utilitarian - Macs have finesse.
Comparing the two looks + experience = Classic PC Vs. Mac difference personified.

spiky_dog · Feb 16, 2004, 10:50 PM

Originally posted by Man Packs Eagle:
Okay BZ I can't argue with your reasons for not wanting a CRT (except 'eyestrain' � eyestrain?) [... elided]

eyestrain is a legit complaint. crts have a refresh rate, lcds only refresh when the content changes. flicker vs. no flicker.

tsukurite · Feb 18, 2004, 03:21 AM

the other part of eyestrain is the thickness of the glass in the tube. The image is displayed on the *back* of the glass, but your eye tries to focus on the front also. So what you end up with is your eye changing it's focual point continuously while you stare at the screen. It may not seem like that big a deal, but your eyes are precision instruments, and the change is significant. The constant refocusing tires your eyes out quickly. This is the reason why most ergonomic information suggests looking away from the screen every ten minutes or so.

An LCD removes both of these problems; the screen has a fixed focal point, and there's no flicker. That's why I'm going to buy one soon. Whee!

Man Packs Eagle · Feb 19, 2004, 10:07 PM

Okay I give up. No-one is convinced by my arguments. Masugu, the point of this post is that I compared the three displays. I didn't look at them in a shop, I had them on my desk plugged into my Mac and I did work on them. I didn't have any preconceptions and I wanted the best monitor I could get up to about �1000.00.

For anyone who still cares, this is my summing up:

The Formac is better value than the Apple because it's almost as sharp, has a better contrast range and a usable refresh rate. It's also bigger and has a more practical screen resolution. If that doesn't swing it, it's a �100.00 cheaper.

The Apple display has many negatives against it (Compared to the Formac - I've no idea how it squares up to Dell displays). The two positives are that is very nicely made and that it's sharp (when displaying a static picture).

In my opinion, the fact that so many people still spring for the Apple display despite these criticisms, indicates that design is the principal buying reason, which is a bit worrying.

Eye strain is not an issue with CRT unless you have the screen set up on a low refresh rate. I can get flicker on mine by running it at 2048 x1546 at 60 Hz. I can get an equally unpleasant and unusable image on a Cinema display by running it at 1024 x 768 - or any other resolution other than its native one.

Stuck pixels. I've had two Apple displays and a stuck pixel on each. They were both very prominent - for instance they showed up in the iMovie viewer on launch. Formac replace the screen if there is one dead pixel. Apple tell you to go whistle Dixie.

Finally I'm surprised that no-one cares about the price saving of CRT. You guys obviously all have better jobs than me. Anyway, I told you I spent the �800.00 I saved on a holiday, and I just got back today!

Yose · Feb 20, 2004, 06:22 PM

I really enjoy the 16:9 aspect when working on spreads in InDesign, other nice points about the 20" Cinema is that it matches the output on a Xerox 7700GX very well with just using the built-in Cinema coloursync and 7700 coloursync profile (I'm not sure if this is attributed to it being SWOP certified or not).

I also haven't ever had to drop out of it's native resolution and in that setting I don't see any ghosting that I can recall. As a mac tech (part time job during school for a company that serves the creative community here in Toronto) I do a lot of pretests&configs and it seems that if clients are buying LCD's then they almost always are buying the Apple branded ones, beyond that we sell some Mitsubishi 22inchers and Lacie Electron Blues. I've been hard pressed to find LCDs that are nicer than Apples.

Anyhow.. to each his own.

Man Packs Eagle · Feb 20, 2004, 10:21 PM

Well said YOSE, each to his own. But I do find it interesting how everyone is so enamoured and protective of the 20" Cinema. I loved the build quality � the weight, the one cable etc., but everything else disagreed with me. When you say nice, you mean nice design, don't you? The Apple display simply isn't the best on the market. An impossible fact for people to digest it seems.

You haven't see any ghosting? Open a window with some picture icons in it and waggle it from side to side. See it now? It reminds me of the old passive TFTs on the fat powerbooks, where the cursor used to 'submarine'. Or you could play a game - any game.

InDesign looks good on it for sure - but software doesn't get much more static. And InDesign looks even better at 1600 x 1200.

The trouble is, everyone is so happy, that there is no incentive for Apple to improve the specs.

Tenacious Dyl · Feb 21, 2004, 01:01 AM

Dell's newest, 15" ? laptop screen is very poorly made, again. Someone I know in the theatre area nearby brought his brand new 3.06 something ghz pentium 4 dell in, its brand new... he turned it on, and i powered up my al 12" pbook, his screen is about 50% the quality. It is very "grainy" and it almost looks like there is a thin layer of "silver sparkles" coating the screen.... as though it can't hold a single color and everything is slightly textured. The machine runs fast granted, but the build quality, size, weight, and screen are very off.