[TailsToo]

Schools pulling the plug on Macs

For nearly two decades, Anne Peach has taught graphic arts at a Catonsville high school using Apple Macintosh computers, knowing her students would use that system in the working world.

But the Apple logo has given way to the waving Windows icon in Baltimore County schools' graphic design and multimedia computer labs, and Peach is furious.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/loc...home-headlines

[MindFad]

Sons o' bitches!

[besson3c]

The whole "get what computer students will be using in the real world" in a high school is utterly retarded. Besides, at this level there is no compelling advantage to doing graphic design on a Mac that would benefit more than a small minority of high school students.

Besides, what percentage of high school students go on and pursue a career in graphic design?

[Mastrap]

I did.

[Salty]

I wouldn't have learned about the Mac if it weren't for my high school graphics class. This is super lame, I would have given up on learning if I'd had to learn on PCs.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Besides, what percentage of high school students go on and pursue a career in graphic design?

Probably quite a few graphic design students.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Salty

I wouldn't have learned about the Mac if it weren't for my high school graphics class. This is super lame, I would have given up on learning if I'd had to learn on PCs.

Me too, but we are in the minority.

The only thing I hope for in the schools leading up to University/Colllege is for some open source action, because I think buying software such as Office is a complete waste of taxpayer dollars. A Linux build would make a fine word pro or internet workstation.

[KeyLimePi]

Baltimore has a lot of quirks that make it a unique city, but this is just embarrassing.

[Salty]

Honestly most schools really should be going with linux on a lot of their computers running OOo and some web browsing software. It really would fit the needs of what a lot of library etc computers are used for. That said in a graphics lab kids should be able to learn this stuff. If they don't learn it now when are they going to? When they have huge assignments in college they should be learning how to use the freaking lasso tool or what?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Me too, but we are in the minority.

The only thing I hope for in the schools leading up to University/Colllege is for some open source action, because I think buying software such as Office is a complete waste of taxpayer dollars. A Linux build would make a fine word pro or internet workstation.

I agree with that. If you're going with price over quality, you might as well actually go with price over quality.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

I did.

Me too

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by besson3c

The only thing I hope for in the schools leading up to University/Colllege is for some open source action, because I think buying software such as Office is a complete waste of taxpayer dollars. A Linux build would make a fine word pro or internet workstation.

I don't think it should be a requirement. Maybe an extra curricular class. Linux is just not that mainstream.

People can go through their whole computer using life and not have to touch a CLI.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Salty

Honestly most schools really should be going with linux on a lot of their computers running OOo and some web browsing software. It really would fit the needs of what a lot of library etc computers are used for. That said in a graphics lab kids should be able to learn this stuff. If they don't learn it now when are they going to? When they have huge assignments in college they should be learning how to use the freaking lasso tool or what?

The computer is just a tool - a tool that needs a good teacher to teach it. It's best to teach the fundamentals to kids so that they are prepared with a solid set of fundamentals going into University/College.

Any dummy can learn how to use the Lasso tool. Knowing the Lasso tool is meaningless. There is already a lot of overly technically excellent computer-generated media lacking a great deal of creative depth.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I don't think it should be a requirement. Maybe an extra curricular class. Linux is just not that mainstream.

People can go through their whole computer using life and not have to touch a CLI.

Who says they would need to learn a CLI to operate a Linux computer?

Like I said, Linux is just fine for word pro, internet usage, and most other basic computer usage.

[Kevin]

If you have the spare time I guess.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Kevin

If you have the spare time I guess.

The spare time to learn how to use Firefox and OpenOffice? I've observed high school students pick up these apps in mere minutes, it's really not that big a deal. Vmarks should also be able to backup my assertion.


The challenge is restructuring tech staff, but if school systems were to work together to design a single image they could deploy across computers and devise a support model, they could set things up so that local support providers could focus most of their time on supporting apps, rather than cleaning up Windows turds.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I don't think it should be a requirement. Maybe an extra curricular class. Linux is just not that mainstream.

People can go through their whole computer using life and not have to touch a CLI.

Linux != CLI.

[Kevin]

I took his original post wrong. My bad.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I took his original post wrong. My bad.

I'm not going to attack dog your ass here. You should try to emulate my restraint, it's a good source of vitamin C and the chicks dig it!

[loki74]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Besides, what percentage of high school students go on and pursue a career in graphic design?

Do you mean to say, it is your belief that most graphic designers did not attend high school?

I think perhaps a better question is, what percent of HS students enrolled in art classes actually pursue a career in art. Probably not many in a typical class, but any class that would be using Macs, I'd imagine, would be highly specialized and competitive. Percentages in such classes would presumably be higher.

[blackbird_1.0]

My high school was like that. My art teacher really hated Macs for some reason. Every time I mentioned Apple or Macs, she'd look at me like I was retarded and slowly say: "Nobody cares about Macs...", or something similar.

[olePigeon]

I don't understand it. Do they LIKE spending more money on computers? Is there something about paying Microsoft hundreds of thousands of dollars every single year just for the privilege of using Microsoft products?

It's completely baffling. It just doesn't make any sense.

Well, actually it does. The people who run the schools don't care and don't want to learn anything about Macintosh. They're stuck in their childish "eeew Macs!" mentality. They don't realize that the exact same software that runs on those overpriced pieces of garbage also run on Macintosh. The argument about "students need to learn on the tools they'll be using in the real world" doesn't hold up to anything anymore. All those "tools" they talk about (basically, Office) is on a cheaper and better platform.

A platform, by the way, that is 100% cross-compatible with every single major operating system in the world. It runs all the software they need on a platform that is cheaper to buy and operate.

Mind you, on an individual basis (on which those companies love to promote) Windows PCs are cheaper than Macintosh. However, when you get to the enterprise level (and district scale with hundreds or even thousands of computers), Windows PCs are a lot more expensive after including annual licensing fees. Every single year, those schools have to write a cheque out to Microsoft just so they can continue using the computers. First they have to buy the computers, then they have to rent the software from Microsoft.

I know the inside, I've worked within IT/IS for schools for nearly 8 years. My boss is awesome, my coworkers are awesome, but most of them just can't get past the stereotype of Macintosh being a proprietary system that doesn't run any "real" software. They'd rather pony up the extra hundred thousand dollars every year than to support a cheaper, more capable platform.

Although, on my boss' behalf, after the last IT guy was removed, he did allow teachers to purchase iBooks after nearly 10 years of being a Windows PC-only district. I just need to convince them otherwise.

No, price comparisons don't do anything. The district level people are so Pro-Microsoft and Windows-only, that saving hundreds of thousands of dollars doesn't mean anything to them.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by besson3c

The challenge is restructuring tech staff, but if school systems were to work together to design a single image they could deploy across computers and devise a support model, they could set things up so that local support providers could focus most of their time on supporting apps, rather than cleaning up Windows turds.

That is only possible with Mac OS at the moment. You can not make a "universal" Windows image for PCs. At my work we have 23 different images for only FOUR different PCs. The reason? Some have a different brand video card, some have a slightly different motherboard (updated revisions), some have different accessories... Christ.

What it boils down to is that Windows really can do anything Mac OS can (some of it better), but it's god f*cking awful and more complicated than it needs to be.

It takes me an afternoon to image 4 different labs over a college campus. That's from start to finish. Taking the newest Mac, installing OS X, software, accounts, etc. Upload the image, then deploy it.

It takes MONTHS to setup, image, and deploy PCs at our high schools using Windows. Unless you have a crap load of money and can upgrade every single PC so they're all identical, then you might be able to do it in the same time. Unfortunately, at the public school level, no one is that lucky.

The money you'd save on man-hours alone would more than pay for twice as many Macintoshes than PCs. Of course, then you add on the annual Microsoft tax, then Macintoshes become infinitely cheaper because Apple doesn't charge licensing fees every single year.

[olePigeon]

I take it back, we have 2 images now at the college. One for the PPC Macs (99% of the Macs at the moment) and one for the Intel Macs. The cool thing? We still only need one server to host and deploy OS X for two completely different architectures.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I'm not going to attack dog your ass here. You should try to emulate my restraint, it's a good source of vitamin C and the chicks dig it!

Put down the pipe besson. You have no restraint.

[TailsToo]

I would also have never probably been exposed to Apples if we didn't have //es in the school where I went as a kid.

There are situations where Mac knowledge is important. All things being equal, I'll bet that many electronic publishing companies deciding between two canadates would choose the one who knows the Mac.

[TailsToo]

Double Post

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

I take it back, we have 2 images now at the college. One for the PPC Macs (99% of the Macs at the moment) and one for the Intel Macs. The cool thing? We still only need one server to host and deploy OS X for two completely different architectures.

The same sorts of build and deploy tools exist in Linux (although Apple has provided some nice touches such as holding down the "N" key for Netboot). Homogenous hardware makes things easier though, I'm not sure how well you could devise a single image for a Linux workstation across different hardware setups.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

I take it back, we have 2 images now at the college. One for the PPC Macs (99% of the Macs at the moment) and one for the Intel Macs. The cool thing? We still only need one server to host and deploy OS X for two completely different architectures.

The same sorts of build and deploy tools exist in Linux (although Apple has provided some nice touches such as holding down the "N" key for Netboot). Homogenous hardware makes things easier though, I'm not sure how well you could devise a single image for a Linux workstation across different hardware setups.

[seanc]

School teaches me nothing about computers, it just teaches me that the IT staff there are complete and utter retards. We have XP running on old cruddy computers, running in 800x600 and right click disabled among other things.

We started with Macs in our house which is what I grew up with, then my dad bought a windows machine for work, abandoned it and went back to the Mac. Unfortunately he's now stuck on Windows because of his cruddy Access database and because of the old "classic" Mac OSs he's also now stuck in the mentality that "Macs are not compatible" and so is my mum. It's sad Funny how my Macs are compatible

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by besson3c

The whole "get what computer students will be using in the real world" in a high school is utterly retarded. Besides, at this level there is no compelling advantage to doing graphic design on a Mac that would benefit more than a small minority of high school students.

Besides, what percentage of high school students go on and pursue a career in graphic design?

Can you imagine how your attitude would work in the music dept.?

Why should we buy pianos? Casio keyboards from Target are cheaper.

Why should we buy flutes? Recorders play the same notes.

Why should we buy drums? Empty pails can be used for a percussion instrument.

What percentage of students who take history classes become historians? What percentage of math students become mathematicians? what percentage of English students become unemployable?

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by besson3c

The same sorts of build and deploy tools exist in Linux (although Apple has provided some nice touches such as holding down the "N" key for Netboot). Homogenous hardware makes things easier though, I'm not sure how well you could devise a single image for a Linux workstation across different hardware setups.

Yes, but a single Linux image won't deploy to 4 generations of computers even of the same brand. We have a mix and mash of everything from B&W G3s, mirror door G4s, up to Dual G5s (and 4 Intel iMacs and 1 Intel Mac mini.) A single PPC OS X Tiger image deploys to all of the PPC Macs. It is a complete mix of acessories, peripherals, and hardware configurations. You can't do that with Linux, much less Windows.

[goMac]

I'm in the middle of a one to one laptop deployment right now and we just can't use open source software. It's not that we have anything against open source. Open source software is simply not high enough quality for students to use. Firefox is good and all, but Open Office is simply below quality. Anyone who thinks students simply write papers on computers anymore needs a reality check. We're deploying all sorts of multimedia applications on these laptops (including obviously iLife), and open source software simply isn't powerful enough. The only solutions that are good enough for these students are Keynote and Microsoft Office. NeoOffice and OpenOffice.org simply don't cut it.

If open source software was as good as the closed source stuff, we'd use it. But the reality is that Open Source Software isn't.

[production_coordinator]

I'm a qualified designer... I use Windows XP and Microsoft Publisher... hello? hello?

[IFLY2HIGH]

I was the hard core PC person in school until I started taking Graphic Arts. After the first year in that class working on macs, lets see old Quadra's and 9100's, I turned to the dark side and sold all my PC's and bought me a Mac. Been happy ever since!

It's funny though to see some of the changes in the graphics departments, for two years or more we swapped out from macs and went almost all PC's and then all them dissapeared and G5's have appeared on more and more desks. Stil lwe have some PCs for a few things we need but most have gone back to Macs again, so it does fluxuate(sp) some.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Can you imagine how your attitude would work in the music dept.?

Why should we buy pianos? Casio keyboards from Target are cheaper.

Why should we buy flutes? Recorders play the same notes.

Why should we buy drums? Empty pails can be used for a percussion instrument.

What percentage of students who take history classes become historians? What percentage of math students become mathematicians? what percentage of English students become unemployable?

Music departments in high schools buy cheap student-grade instruments. Instrument manufacturers specifically make cheaper instruments for high schools.

As far as your last paragraph, you missed my point. I was asking whether buying professional-grade gear for a given task justified the difference in expense over more modest gear. I despise Windows, but I'd have to say that if I needed to run Adobe/Macromedia apps and I was buying machines for a school, as long as the support infrastructure was in place (which would include maintaining security of these machines), I'd have a hard time justifying the purchase of Macs.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by goMac

I'm in the middle of a one to one laptop deployment right now and we just can't use open source software. It's not that we have anything against open source. Open source software is simply not high enough quality for students to use. Firefox is good and all, but Open Office is simply below quality. Anyone who thinks students simply write papers on computers anymore needs a reality check. We're deploying all sorts of multimedia applications on these laptops (including obviously iLife), and open source software simply isn't powerful enough. The only solutions that are good enough for these students are Keynote and Microsoft Office. NeoOffice and OpenOffice.org simply don't cut it.

If open source software was as good as the closed source stuff, we'd use it. But the reality is that Open Source Software isn't.

OpenOffice is not bonafide multimedia software, nor is Microsoft Office really. In general, there isn't a whole lot of great multimedia open source software, I'll give you that. If by multimedia software, you mean an app that will accept a JPG paste and very basic desktop publishing-type abilities, how does OpenOffice not suffice in this department? Just wondering, I've never used it for this sort of purpose.

I have my own opinions about creating cutesy little Powerpoint/Keynote slides, but I'll leave that for another thread. I think iLife is a great way to allow students to be creative, it is unequalled. I'm still generally cynical and opinionated about the merits of the actual academic applications of these tools. I believe that in many cases these tools can be utilized in wonderful ways, but I also think that there is a lot of waste in teaching students utterly useless skills in crappy Microsoft applications. I don't give a rat's ass that a student knows how to do a starwipe in Powerpoint.

I could go on, but many of you already have heard me do so.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Yes, but a single Linux image won't deploy to 4 generations of computers even of the same brand. We have a mix and mash of everything from B&W G3s, mirror door G4s, up to Dual G5s (and 4 Intel iMacs and 1 Intel Mac mini.) A single PPC OS X Tiger image deploys to all of the PPC Macs. It is a complete mix of acessories, peripherals, and hardware configurations. You can't do that with Linux, much less Windows.

Score one for the Mac there!

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by besson3c

could set things up so that local support providers could focus most of their time on supporting apps, rather than cleaning up Windows turds.

Yeah, you can do that with Windows, too. Problem is that most people don't. It's not even really that hard.

[tavilach]

Originally Posted by KeyLimePi

Baltimore has a lot of quirks that make it a unique city, but this is just embarrassing.

Pikesville is one big quirk . I've never seen a place so infested with Orthodox Jews in my life! I live in Owings Mills, by the way. Of course, perhaps you're referring to real Baltimore, of which I know nothing about.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Music departments in high schools buy cheap student-grade instruments. Instrument manufacturers specifically make cheaper instruments for high schools.

As far as your last paragraph, you missed my point. I was asking whether buying professional-grade gear for a given task justified the difference in expense over more modest gear. I despise Windows, but I'd have to say that if I needed to run Adobe/Macromedia apps and I was buying machines for a school, as long as the support infrastructure was in place (which would include maintaining security of these machines), I'd have a hard time justifying the purchase of Macs.

Ah-ha, thank you for my next little segue:

You think Mac minis are pro grade machines? iBooks? eMacs?

I don't think you understand how much cheaper it is to maintain a Macintosh system over a Linux or Windows system. Basically, it's set and forget. With windows it's set and update and virus protect, and reformat, and update, and search for drivers due to broken system due to "update"...

I have a friend who specializes in Linux systems. He makes a fortune because, in his words, "It's so archaic and intentionally complex that only a tiny part of the population can barely even use it. He specializes in companies that have been convinced it's cheaper to switch to Linux and then can't figure out the systems on their own.

[ghporter]

Please explain how getting a better deal on computers for a school system is being "anti-Mac." I just dont' understand.

[Chuckit]

The same reason choosing to save money by not having any teachers might be considered "anti-teacher." Cheaper != better deal.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by ghporter

Please explain how getting a better deal on computers for a school system is being "anti-Mac." I just dont' understand.

When reading FUD in the article like this:

"Students and staff can share information efficiently if everyone uses compatible equipment. 'All of this can happen only if we're all on the same operating platform,' said schools spokeswoman Kara Calder."

It's easy to see the person has a MS bias and is anti-Mac.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Ah-ha, thank you for my next little segue:

You think Mac minis are pro grade machines? iBooks? eMacs?

I don't think you understand how much cheaper it is to maintain a Macintosh system over a Linux or Windows system. Basically, it's set and forget. With windows it's set and update and virus protect, and reformat, and update, and search for drivers due to broken system due to "update"...

I have a friend who specializes in Linux systems. He makes a fortune because, in his words, "It's so archaic and intentionally complex that only a tiny part of the population can barely even use it. He specializes in companies that have been convinced it's cheaper to switch to Linux and then can't figure out the systems on their own.

There is the initial cost of hardware, the cost of all software (Linux software is generally free/OSS), and the cost of support. Linux runs very well on older hardware, which just leaves the cost of support and training. In some environments, I've even heard of people setting up a cluster of modest hardware to do all of heavy lifting, and just purchasing dumb terminals that connect to the cluster.

Since most IT guys are not Mac guys, a Mac environment would likely involve all three expenses, although perhaps you could setup an Xgrid cluster built from older Mac hardware...

Linux is complicated, as it was not designed primarily for your Grandma user. However, using a Window manager like Gnome with apps like Firefox and OpenOffice is really not that big a deal. Gnome is also user friendly enough that any user that can negotiate a Mac or Windows machine should be fine with getting around the OS.

When it comes to installing apps, configuring hardware, etc. Sure, Linux is far more complicated. However, in a lab environment these variables would already be accounted for by the IT department. From the user's standpoint, a Linux machine that has been setup well is really not that big a deal.

[Salty]

Besson why is it everyone always argues against you? I hardly see how a couple Mac minis are honestly that much higher priced that some dells considering the minis are gonna be working longer.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Salty

Besson why is it everyone always argues against you? I hardly see how a couple Mac minis are honestly that much higher priced that some dells considering the minis are gonna be working longer.

Not to sound condescending, but have you worked in a bureaucracy? Do you have any idea how middle management-type people think? Have you dealt with people that manage budgets?

There are many variables to account for. Your overly simplistic Mac talking points sound really great in a forum like this, and have some truth to them, but there are any number of political and logistical reasons you need to factor in too.

Really this is all very simple. This is not about computer religion or technology, this is simply about economics. In their minds, the cheaper upfront costs represents a better deal, and thinking into the future is not something administrators usually do.

You simply cannot compare the cost difference from running free software on older hardware to running commercial software on new hardware (which OS X runs much better on). Windows XP vs. OS X, sure, I can see your point - esp. when accounting for security software. Even if the Dells running Linux were to crap out at a much greater rate than the Macs, this would need to happen a *lot* to account for the difference in price.

Think about it:

Mac Mini: $500 (or is it $600 now?)
Monitor: ? Probably at least another three digit price.. if a Mini will work with an old CRT, disregard this
Office: ?

Old Dell w. monitor: $200? $300?

[Salty]

IF a mac mini will work with an old CRT? Seriously why do you even post here if you have to say that?

[©öñFü$íóÑ]

My highschool had nothing but Pentium 120's from Packard Bell or some other generic brand (1995-1999). Only few teachers had Apple ][e's and Mac Performa 575's on their desks. Needless to say, they were never part of the school's shared T-3 network.

However, the private middle school i went to had NOTHING BUT Macs...... thanks to a deal with Safeway and Apple, the school was able to replace it's network of Apple ][e's with Performa 400's...... a MAJOR improvement back in 1993-94. And that's when i fell in love with the Mac platform and signed up for eWorld.........

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Salty

IF a mac mini will work with an old CRT? Seriously why do you even post here if you have to say that?

Because if all you can get is 800 x 600 out of an old 15" CRT, that would suck.