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You are here: MacNN Forums > Software - Troubleshooting and Discussion > macOS > All the graphic designers have left Cupertino

All the graphic designers have left Cupertino
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Trygve
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Oct 29, 2007, 12:28 AM
 
As a developer, I've been playing with Leopard for several months now. I thought most of this would be worked out before release, but it was not to be.

Dock: Enough has been said about the terrible new dock. Please bring back proper folder operation.

Folders: They look flat and dull.. in fact the entire OS looks flat and dull.

Grey: It is too dark in here. This is really obvious in Safari with the text on background tabs.

System Preferences icon: The Apple light switch was fine. This set of gears looks scary and mechanical.

Menu Bar: solid please.

The list goes on and on...

Wow. I have to have 10.5 for our customers, but I'll be running Tiger on my main machine for some time to come. I have been an Apple user/developer since OS 6.0.3 and this is the first time I think we have seen a step backwards.

Way to go Apple.
     
- - e r i k - -
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Oct 29, 2007, 12:30 AM
 
You're a developer, not a graphic designer I see. All the new UI changes have been geared towards graphic designers. We prefer a neutral functional interface. By the way there are plenty of threads like these already.

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swiz
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Oct 29, 2007, 12:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by Trygve View Post
Folders: They look flat and dull.. in fact the entire OS looks flat and dull.
I think the new folders do look lame but I think the previous folders were just poor overall. Design and execution looked amateurish, at least the new ones look like they are "built" better.

I think as a whole the interface is much improved but consistency is still Apples trouble.

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fhoubi
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Oct 29, 2007, 04:46 AM
 
Menu Bar: solid & rounded corners on top please.

Dropdown Lists: rectangle corners on bottom please (or either everywhere rounded, or not) etc. etc...

Put 10.4 fresh back late night, due to that upgrading to 10.5 and archive&install back to 10.4 both went wrong (Photoshop Elements 2.0 & plugins was a no-go on 10.5 too) and boy I am happy again.
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Mastrap
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Oct 29, 2007, 06:46 AM
 
It is impossible to please all of the people all of the time. Personally I quite like the new look, including the dock - but then I keep my dock on the right.
     
xe0
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Oct 29, 2007, 09:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
You're a developer, not a graphic designer I see. All the new UI changes have been geared towards graphic designers. We prefer a neutral functional interface. By the way there are plenty of threads like these already.
I second that. The neutral scheme is very practical for creative design purposes. Personally I find the translucent menu bar works well, and the new folder icons fit a more professional market, such as ours.

I am happy with leopard and have already put it into full production by installing it on two, of our main workstations in the studio. Thus far the UI, Networking and general system optimisation (no thats not a spelling error, Im Australian) have been greeted positively.
     
Todd Madson
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Oct 29, 2007, 10:21 AM
 
I actually feel the neutral colored folders help a bit - I generally have a pile of them
on the desktop and now that it's this way I felt more inclined to sort things up and
lessen the clutter so to speak.
     
Kar98
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Oct 29, 2007, 11:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by Trygve View Post
System Preferences icon: The Apple light switch was fine. This set of gears looks scary and mechanical.
You gotta be fing kidding.

Also, I like the "flat, dull" look. And the 3D dock. I wish Apple would have done away with the plastic scroll bars and implemented the ones from itunes all over the system.
     
wulf
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Oct 29, 2007, 11:43 AM
 
Yes, I think that the new GUI look is, on the whole, what a lot of people have been after since... 10.2? 10.0?

It works for me anyway. I'm an editor now, used to be a designer. If you look at the Apple pro apps, they are all very grey. And quite dark. There's a reason for this. It allows one to focus on the content without being visually distracted by the interface.

Which does leave one to wonder: what on earth were they thinking with the distracting, noisy, hard-to read new 3D dock? It kind of looks nice, I just don't want to use it when I'm working.

Thank heavens for the 2D dock hack, Apple should make this a preference in the next point update. I just hope someone comes up with a way of changing the gray edge. I'd be quite happy with the Dock background being just translucent black with rounded corners, which would also be consistent with the HUD look used elsewhere.
     
EricTheRed
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Oct 29, 2007, 11:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
You're a developer, not a graphic designer I see. All the new UI changes have been geared towards graphic designers. We prefer a neutral functional interface. By the way there are plenty of threads like these already.
Trygve summed up my view rather well. Some preferences are in order to sort out the poor viewing experience. I'd like to be able to simply turn off transparency on everything and get the old, highly-visible Dock back. And stacks. Stacks needs to work. And why can't I place a folder to the left of the divider? Yadda, yadda.
     
viruscool
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Oct 29, 2007, 12:08 PM
 
I can't believe people are moaning about little things such as the lack of rounded menu bar, and the new rounded ends to the drop down menus. Seriously WTF, how can something that tiny and miniscule bother you so much?

Personally I'm loving the new GUI updates, but I do agree some things, like the home folders need to be a bit more obvious that they are special folders and the blue light on the dock needs to be more obvious and not so subtle, but those things don't bother me that much. There are so many good things in Leopard that make those issues irrelevant to me.
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wulf
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Oct 29, 2007, 12:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by viruscool View Post
I can't believe people are moaning about little things such as the lack of rounded menu bar, and the new rounded ends to the drop down menus.
OT: I don't know if it's been established why Apple dropped the rounded corners on the menu bar. My only guess is that with Boot Camp, people might be more likely to notice burn-in of the rounded corners on their monitors. (If you think that LCDs don't get burn-in, you need to have a look at some of the edit suites where I work that have the FCP Browser etched onto the screen - it's an effect known as Image Persistence which is very similar to CRT burn-in)
     
fhoubi
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Oct 29, 2007, 12:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by viruscool View Post
I can't believe people are moaning about little things such as the lack of rounded menu bar, and the new rounded ends to the drop down menus. Seriously WTF, how can something that tiny and miniscule bother you so much?.
Because I cannot stand changes, esp. if they do not improve anything.

Well maybe more I am p*ssed because for the first time in years my upgrade went bollocks. On my iBook I went smoothly from 10.1 to 10.4, then migrated/assisted to an Intel iMac without any problems other than a ppc-printer driver.

Going to Leopard busted my iMac: iTunes wouldn't quit, did not find my iPod, none of my smart finder searches (or how to call them) did work anymore, stacks is no improvement if you had a folder with subfolders with links to different programs, keychains were busted, search (apple-f) in Safari 3 did not work, PS Elements 2 with paid plugins not supported anymore, you cannot resize the dock by grabbing it, it is hard to see which programs are running in the dock, etc. etc. Arstechnica has a good section of a review how crappy the new dock is. My feeling: time to eBay this POS for the first time in my 10 Apple years.
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.Neo
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Oct 29, 2007, 12:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by fhoubi View Post
Because I cannot stand changes
Then why do you even bother upgrading to a newer operating system?! Obviously you'll encounter changes.

It's perfectly possible to resize the Dock by gabbing it on Mac OS X Leopard. So I have no idea where you got that from. And if you don't like the 3D Dock just change it to 2D...
( Last edited by .Neo; Oct 29, 2007 at 01:00 PM. )
     
MacosNerd
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Oct 29, 2007, 01:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Trygve View Post
Dock: Enough has been said about the terrible new dock. Please bring back proper folder operation.
since I'm not a developer (nor a graphic designer) I did not have the pre-release version of leopard so I've only had a little while with the new OS but that being said, I don't hate the new dock, in fact I kind of like it. Looks cool and works well.

Folders: They look flat and dull.. in fact the entire OS looks flat and dull.
I kind of like the new look especially over the old version, however their isn't enough contrast between the folders, like movies, applications, etc. They should have made it a little easier to identify the type of folder.

Grey: It is too dark in here. This is really obvious in Safari with the text on background tabs.
Yeah, it does seem a little much, but when aqua came out people were saying it was too much color. Go figure.

System Preferences icon: The Apple light switch was fine. This set of gears looks scary and mechanical.
Agreed, nice touch.


Bottom line, is that everyone seems to complain about the UI from day one so why should Leopard be any different. 10.0 they hated the aqua and asked why they had abandon the Platinum theme.

Then people complained about the brushed metal, the unified theme and now this.
When 10.6 comes out, people will be complaining why they changed the folder icons when the flat ones worked so well.
     
Don Pickett
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Oct 29, 2007, 01:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacosNerd View Post
Bottom line, is that everyone seems to complain about the UI from day one so why should Leopard be any different. 10.0 they hated the aqua and asked why they had abandon the Platinum theme.
There's an old joke: How do you make an actor complain? Give him a part.

How do you man a Mac user complain? Release a new version of OS X.
The era of anthropomorphizing hardware is over.
     
fhoubi
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Oct 29, 2007, 01:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by .Neo View Post
Then why do you even bother upgrading to a newer operating system?! Obviously you'll encounter changes.
10.2 brought speed, .3 brought more speed and Expose, 10.4 Spotlight. Further the (much hated?) stripped-theme faded out slowly. Yep 10.5 brings us Time Machine.

BTW I could not resize the Dock (by gripping it on the top?)
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~bash $
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Oct 29, 2007, 02:09 PM
 
I don't know, developers have to be loving this release -- it's always the developer side stuff that gets the biggest revision as far as I'm concerned. The UI stuff is nice but I tend to subscribe to 'form follows function'. Leopard will be beautiful once the first major round of bugs are worked out.
     
mdc
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Oct 29, 2007, 02:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by fhoubi View Post
BTW I could not resize the Dock (by gripping it on the top?)
You resize the dock the same way that you have always resized it.
Put your mouse over the partition between applications (left side) and documents/stacks (right side). The mouse cursor will change to an up|down arrow. Click and drag up or downwards.
     
.Neo
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Oct 29, 2007, 02:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by fhoubi View Post
10.2 brought speed, .3 brought more speed and Expose, 10.4 Spotlight. Further the (much hated?) stripped-theme faded out slowly. Yep 10.5 brings us Time Machine.

BTW I could not resize the Dock (by gripping it on the top?)
Hover your mouse cursor over the Dock separator.
     
ginoledesma
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Oct 29, 2007, 03:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Trygve View Post
Grey: It is too dark in here. This is really obvious in Safari with the text on background tabs.
At least I'm not the only one who thinks this. The background tabs on active windows, in particular, are the problem. The contrast makes it hard to read. I thought this was a Safari 3.x problem, but the beta in Tiger was fine.
     
Mac4Decade
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Oct 29, 2007, 06:12 PM
 
So as a developer (re: not a designer) you've been playing with Leopard for months and you thought somehow they would have changed: the dock, folders, menu bar and the sys. prefs icon for public release?

Too gray? How is brushed aluminum any less gray or filled with more color? Didn't you see this coming with the way iTunes was shaping up graphically? I hardly think this is a step backwards, if anything it is a layer of bricks solidifying Apple's new status quo in the iPod/iTunes world they've created.


Originally Posted by Trygve View Post
As a developer, I've been playing with Leopard for several months now. I thought most of this would be worked out before release, but it was not to be.

Dock: Enough has been said about the terrible new dock. Please bring back proper folder operation.

Folders: They look flat and dull.. in fact the entire OS looks flat and dull.

Grey: It is too dark in here. This is really obvious in Safari with the text on background tabs.

System Preferences icon: The Apple light switch was fine. This set of gears looks scary and mechanical.

Menu Bar: solid please.

The list goes on and on...

Wow. I have to have 10.5 for our customers, but I'll be running Tiger on my main machine for some time to come. I have been an Apple user/developer since OS 6.0.3 and this is the first time I think we have seen a step backwards.

Way to go Apple.

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MartiNZ
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Oct 29, 2007, 06:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by wulf View Post
OT: I don't know if it's been established why Apple dropped the rounded corners on the menu bar. My only guess is that with Boot Camp, people might be more likely to notice burn-in of the rounded corners on their monitors. (If you think that LCDs don't get burn-in, you need to have a look at some of the edit suites where I work that have the FCP Browser etched onto the screen - it's an effect known as Image Persistence which is very similar to CRT burn-in)
I've seen LCDs in computer labs with the windows press ctrl-alt-delete to login window burnt in, or at least the outline of it - they were somehow set to never sleep the display ><.
     
analogika
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Oct 29, 2007, 07:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by fhoubi View Post
Well maybe more I am p*ssed because for the first time in years my upgrade went bollocks. On my iBook I went smoothly from 10.1 to 10.4, then migrated/assisted to an Intel iMac without any problems other than a ppc-printer driver.

Going to Leopard busted my iMac: iTunes wouldn't quit, did not find my iPod, none of my smart finder searches (or how to call them) did work anymore, stacks is no improvement if you had a folder with subfolders with links to different programs, keychains were busted, search (apple-f) in Safari 3 did not work, PS Elements 2 with paid plugins not supported anymore, you cannot resize the dock by grabbing it, it is hard to see which programs are running in the dock, etc. etc. Arstechnica has a good section of a review how crappy the new dock is. My feeling: time to eBay this POS for the first time in my 10 Apple years.
Something's ****ed up.

I used Archive & Install to upgrade, and I'm seeing no problems other than my MIDI interface driver not working in Leopard yet.

Apparently, video previews appear much faster in CoverFlow when perian is not installed due to a bug in the current version, but it's too useful for me to throw out.
     
sc_markt
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Oct 29, 2007, 09:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Trygve View Post
As a developer, I've been playing with Leopard for several months now. I thought most of this would be worked out before release, but it was not to be.

Dock: Enough has been said about the terrible new dock. Please bring back proper folder operation.

Folders: They look flat and dull.. in fact the entire OS looks flat and dull.

Grey: It is too dark in here. This is really obvious in Safari with the text on background tabs.

System Preferences icon: The Apple light switch was fine. This set of gears looks scary and mechanical.

Menu Bar: solid please.

The list goes on and on...

Wow. I have to have 10.5 for our customers, but I'll be running Tiger on my main machine for some time to come. I have been an Apple user/developer since OS 6.0.3 and this is the first time I think we have seen a step backwards.

Way to go Apple.
I agree that some of what you said haven't been thought out. But if you've read the Ars review of 10.5, you'll realized that 10.5 is a great upgrade from 10.4. There are even under the hood improvements that I wasn't aware of.

- Mark
     
swiz
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Oct 29, 2007, 09:11 PM
 
Those who have problematic installs should read the Ars Technica review mention about Unsanity's APE just in case it applies to your install. It WOULD have applied to me but I always do an erase and install.

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Curiosity
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Oct 30, 2007, 02:53 AM
 
From what I have seen of the screenshots of the new Finder, the sidebar background is nice with the light grey background, but why could the list area not have been grey as well, instead of white?
     
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Oct 30, 2007, 07:09 AM
 
I don't know about the US retail box but the back from the spaniard retail box is an atrocity… so in such aspect, the thread title applies.
     
wulf
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Oct 30, 2007, 07:43 AM
 
Can you post a pic?

I love the design of the UK box - which AFAIK is the same as the US.
     
MacosNerd
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Oct 30, 2007, 08:03 AM
 
Wow we're now complaining about the packaging.

I think things are getting a little out of hand, this is after all an operating system designed to run programs and allow us to do our work. Who cares what the box looks like, its the contents that is important, not what picture is on the box.
     
wulf
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Oct 30, 2007, 08:14 AM
 
I take it as a good sign really

After all we're Mac users, we have to moan about something. But if the worst thing for some people is the packaging, then Apple must be doing something right.
     
kilechki
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Oct 30, 2007, 11:34 AM
 
When you look at the elegance of the iphone's UI, you just can't help wondering why no effort was put in Leopard.
The look of the OS is just... uninspired. New (and not so new) features are not so well integrated.

I like the transparent menubar, though, even if I don't have it on a G4 12" (WHY?).

Apple may have decided to keep all major changes for a next release, for a full RI interface. 10.6 and 2010 maybe?
     
angelmb
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Oct 30, 2007, 01:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by wulf View Post
Can you post a pic?

I love the design of the UK box - which AFAIK is the same as the US.
     
angelmb
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Oct 30, 2007, 01:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacosNerd View Post
Wow we're now complaining about the packaging.

I think things are getting a little out of hand, this is after all an operating system designed to run programs and allow us to do our work. Who cares what the box looks like, its the contents that is important, not what picture is on the box.
Here you have a good read…



Anyway, is it the same for the US retail box?
     
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Oct 30, 2007, 02:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by angelmb View Post
<packaging "atrocity">
Looks like my US one. I was expecting pictures of dead babies or something. I fail to see what's so atrocious. I glanced at it for maybe a second and a half before I installed it. What is it lacking, you think?
     
wulf
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Oct 31, 2007, 05:42 AM
 
What 'Fad said - not sure what the problem is.

I mean, it's not as pretty as the front, but hey, it's POS design (that's Point Of Sale, not the other one ) so I would expect some marketing of new features on there.
     
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Oct 31, 2007, 06:06 AM
 
I thought the box was well-designed. Didn't notice the back, honestly, but the front was way cool (I actually had family members who saw it grab the box out of my hands and stare in wonder at the weird 3D effect) and it was much more functional than the old-style boxes. Getting at the actual DVD and instruction manual didn't require me to dump a ton of stuff out first.
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Andrew Stephens
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Oct 31, 2007, 11:15 AM
 
I think the folders have a nice retro OS 7 feel about them. Maybe they should have reintroduced more classic OS elements?

er...

Actually this is the first OS where I'll be looking to install a custom folders theme asap.

DO NOT WANT!
( Last edited by Andrew Stephens; Oct 31, 2007 at 11:16 AM. Reason: oops typo)
     
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Nov 3, 2007, 01:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by .Neo View Post
Hover your mouse cursor over the Dock separator.
As obvious as...

Like most things in OSX they are getting weirder and weirder.

Click and pull at the wrong location of the Dock or Sidebar and something disappears in a puff of smoke before you get to see what it was and there is no undo.

What was wrong with obvious and working the same as elsewhere. Like pull at a corner to resize? Doh! Not difficult enough!

OSX has become a Chinese laundry bag of User Interface Easter eggs.

Get the guys who wrote Myst to design the next OSX!

You'll spend weeks trying to find out how to open a file or a folder, let alone get some work done. But who cares, this is SO sophisticated!
( Last edited by rubaiyat; Nov 3, 2007 at 01:53 PM. )
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Chuckit
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Nov 3, 2007, 01:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by rubaiyat View Post
As obvious as...

Like most things in OSX they are getting weirder and weirder.

What was wrong with obvious and working the same as elsewhere.

OSX has become a Chinese laundrybag of User Interface Easter eggs.
And what is the convention for resizing an interface like the Dock?
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rubaiyat
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Nov 3, 2007, 02:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
And what is the convention for resizing an interface like the Dock?
Convention? Huh don't make me laugh. The answer to evrything is "Whatever Steve says".

We've gone from lickable, to wouldn't want to touch it without elbow length industrial gloves. From clarity to murky uncertainty and the downright silly (tiddly little slivers of documents in a can't tell what it is folder) and is it open or isn't it fuzzy little "LED".

These are improvements?

"Whatever Steve says".
I look forward to a future where the present will be in the past.
     
Chuckit
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Nov 3, 2007, 02:33 PM
 
So actually, the Dock is not any less obvious or consistent than it always has been?
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rubaiyat
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Nov 3, 2007, 02:58 PM
 
It is as always, odd. Now even odder and more obtuse

Like many things in OSX. That doesn't excuse even more oddities being added to the mix.

If shiny semi-transparent shelf with half visible LED indicators lost in a confusion of faux-realism is good, why is it different when dragged to the side of the screen?

Or why not have the same mush served up when viewing windows ie reflections, transparency, LED and all?

What is with the violent mood swings in OSX GUI? From bright and cheery to Kovorkian gloom? To reflect the mad assemblage of Apple hardware and peripherals or is Steve in remission again??
( Last edited by rubaiyat; Nov 3, 2007 at 03:10 PM. )
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.Neo
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Nov 3, 2007, 03:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by rubaiyat View Post
As obvious as...

Like most things in OSX they are getting weirder and weirder.
It has always worked that way... Or just through System Preferences. But I guess this is way too hard for you to understand as well:
     
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Nov 3, 2007, 04:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by .Neo View Post
It has always worked that way... Or just through System Preferences. But I guess this is way too hard for you to understand as well:
Bollocks! What limited time of your attention span are we discussing? As if it mattered anyway when it isn't obvious and is different to everywhere else.

To grab and drag at an inconsequential portion of the GUI interface to resize the overall element, when to grab and drag anywhere else would in likelihood delete something is plain stupid. Self evidently so.

Or maybe that is "too hard for you to understand".
I look forward to a future where the present will be in the past.
     
.Neo
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Nov 3, 2007, 04:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by rubaiyat View Post
Bollocks! What limited time of your attention span are we discussing? As if it mattered anyway when it isn't obvious and is different to everywhere else.

To grab and drag at an inconsequential portion of the GUI interface to resize the overall element, when to grab and drag anywhere else would in likelihood delete something is plain stupid. Self evidently so.

Or maybe that is "too hard for you to understand".
Well first of all I'm not the one here having an extremely hard time with resizing the Dock. The separator is the only part of the Dock itself you can actually hold on to, so in that way it makes sense that you can drag it bigger and smaller there. Next to that there has been a resizing option in System Preferences since Mac OS X' initial release in 2001.

The likelihood of deleting a Dock item while being in the progress of resizing the Dock is entirely up to you. When you're hovering over the separator the mouse cursor will change into a a fairly large resize sign. Feedback enough I'd say.

Unless you're one of those people who just enjoy complaining for the sake of complaining.
( Last edited by .Neo; Nov 3, 2007 at 06:34 PM. )
     
PaperNotes
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Nov 3, 2007, 04:46 PM
 
We're moving towards windowless applications anyway. Take for example widgets, or Jefferson Han's multi touch demo, MS Surface, the iPhone interface or the video wall Jobs demonstrated at WWDC. Since we're moving towards a windowless interactive interface it makes little sense to invest time in making a window server (the thing responsible for drawing windows on your GUI etc) pretty when they're on the way out.

The whole purpose of making the menu bar translucent and the windows so drab is to ween you off them. It's like trying to cure a drug addict! Make the drugs disappear a little at a time. Or quiting smoking. Or going on a diet.
     
analogika
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Nov 3, 2007, 05:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by rubaiyat View Post
Bollocks! What limited time of your attention span are we discussing? As if it mattered anyway when it isn't obvious and is different to everywhere else.

To grab and drag at an inconsequential portion of the GUI interface to resize the overall element, when to grab and drag anywhere else would in likelihood delete something is plain stupid. Self evidently so.

Or maybe that is "too hard for you to understand".
That's a shortcut for those who know where to look.

For everyone else, it's in the logical - and thus obvious - place: The Apple menu, which is where *everything* is that is global and doesn't affect a specific application.

I'm not sure why you're bitching (especially considering that this has been the case for at least the last five years).
     
dankar
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Nov 3, 2007, 05:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by PaperNotes View Post
We're moving towards windowless applications anyway. Take for example widgets, or Jefferson Han's multi touch demo, MS Surface, the iPhone interface or the video wall Jobs demonstrated at WWDC. Since we're moving towards a windowless interactive interface it makes little sense to invest time in making a window server (the thing responsible for drawing windows on your GUI etc) pretty when they're on the way out.

The whole purpose of making the menu bar translucent and the windows so drab is to ween you off them. It's like trying to cure a drug addict! Make the drugs disappear a little at a time. Or quiting smoking. Or going on a diet.
Yeah, you could be right! But I have 'highly visible folders and menu bar burn' on my retinas, so would take awhile to get use to these semi-visible ones.
     
BoingoBongo
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Nov 3, 2007, 06:46 PM
 
I like Leopard. I like the eye candy. I like the dock. I like the new features. I understand it's a .0 release, and don't mind waiting for updates to fix things here and there.

I also like the translucent menu bar, especially with an orange wallpaper.
     
 
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