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You are here: MacNN Forums > Software - Troubleshooting and Discussion > macOS > Does 24-hour clock in Panther still say AM/PM?

Does 24-hour clock in Panther still say AM/PM?
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kennethmac2000
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Oct 13, 2003, 12:01 PM
 
Is it true that the 24-hour clock in Panther still shows AM/PM after it (ie, a bug)?

One place I've heard this bug exhibits itself is in the iSync menu extra.

Can anyone confirm this?
     
- - e r i k - -
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Oct 13, 2003, 12:32 PM
 
Confirmed.

It says AM in my iSync menu. I believe this to be a bug in iSync itself since this is the only place I've seen it.

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mitchell_pgh
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Oct 13, 2003, 12:58 PM
 
I'm wondering if we are going to see a 10.3.1 update a few days after the 24th...

(I wonder when 10.2.1 was released)
     
kennethmac2000  (op)
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Oct 13, 2003, 01:07 PM
 
Another place I've been told it appears is in WeatherPop, a menubar weather utility.

Me thinks it must be a bug in Panther itself. This is all too typical of Apple's US-centric QA.
     
CatOne
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Oct 13, 2003, 02:14 PM
 
Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
Another place I've been told it appears is in WeatherPop, a menubar weather utility.

Me thinks it must be a bug in Panther itself. This is all too typical of Apple's US-centric QA.
Blah blah blah.

There are a couple options:

"Show AM/PM"
"Use 24 hour clock."

How 'bout unchecking the former?
     
kennethmac2000  (op)
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Oct 13, 2003, 02:49 PM
 
Originally posted by CatOne:
Blah blah blah.

There are a couple options:

"Show AM/PM"
"Use 24 hour clock."

How 'bout unchecking the former?
How about reading the thread?

This has nothing to do with the menu bar clock, which allows you to override the OS default time format with whatever you choose (wrongly in my view, but that doesn't change the fact that it does).

What we are talking about is the way the OS presents the time format to applications - such as iSync and WeatherPop - that use the standard APIs for getting the user's preferred time format as set in International preferences.

In Panther there appears to be a bug that causes AM or PM to be appended to the end of times expressed in the 24-hour clock that users can do nothing about.
     
sadact
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Oct 13, 2003, 04:56 PM
 
Is it not good practice to have both the time in 24 notation and also the AM/PM appendation? This would avoid the confusion of people unaware which hour you were on; 11 in the morning or 11 at night.

I hope this enlightens you all.

Regards
     
AJ
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Oct 13, 2003, 05:04 PM
 
This bug is really annoying for those of us who operate on the 24 hour system.

I find it amusing that Apple can have such attention to detail over some aspects of their work, yet leave in bugs that mess with internationally recognized time formats. Mad!

Here's to 10.3.1
     
CatOne
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Oct 13, 2003, 05:04 PM
 
Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
How about reading the thread?

This has nothing to do with the menu bar clock, which allows you to override the OS default time format with whatever you choose (wrongly in my view, but that doesn't change the fact that it does).

What we are talking about is the way the OS presents the time format to applications - such as iSync and WeatherPop - that use the standard APIs for getting the user's preferred time format as set in International preferences.

In Panther there appears to be a bug that causes AM or PM to be appended to the end of times expressed in the 24-hour clock that users can do nothing about.
How do you know this is a Panther bug? I had my clock set to 24 hour mode... and iSync said "last sync at 1:19 PM." Well that's not 24 hour mode, but who's to know whether iSync asked for the time and it was given in 12 hour format, or iSync asked for a 12 hour time? Maybe it's an app issue, not an OS issue?
     
kennethmac2000  (op)
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Oct 13, 2003, 05:07 PM
 
Originally posted by CatOne:
How do you know this is a Panther bug? I had my clock set to 24 hour mode... and iSync said "last sync at 1:19 PM." Well that's not 24 hour mode, but who's to know whether iSync asked for the time and it was given in 12 hour format, or iSync asked for a 12 hour time? Maybe it's an app issue, not an OS issue?
OK. So it's just coincidence that the same problem occurs in other apps, and never occurred in those same apps in 10.2? Get real.
     
Wevah
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Oct 13, 2003, 05:24 PM
 
Is there still a "Time" tab to the "International" preference pane?
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sadact
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Oct 13, 2003, 05:25 PM
 
My current time zone is Romance Daylight Time. Interesting?
     
aaanorton
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Oct 13, 2003, 05:33 PM
 
Originally posted by sadact:
Is it not good practice to have both the time in 24 notation and also the AM/PM appendation? This would avoid the confusion of people unaware which hour you were on; 11 in the morning or 11 at night.

I hope this enlightens you all.

Regards
I hope this enlightens you.
     
Uday's Carcass
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Oct 13, 2003, 05:35 PM
 
Originally posted by sadact:
Is it not good practice to have both the time in 24 notation and also the AM/PM appendation? This would avoid the confusion of people unaware which hour you were on; 11 in the morning or 11 at night.
umm, if you're using the 24 hour clock, there won't be any confusion as to am/pm.

1pm = 1300.
1am = 0100.
There's really no room for confusion.

Linfidels harken! 'The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.'
     
kennethmac2000  (op)
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Oct 13, 2003, 05:51 PM
 
Originally posted by Wevah:
Is there still a "Time" tab to the "International" preference pane?
No. However, what has that got to do with this bug, which, as I said, is everything to do with Apple's US-centric QA and nothing to do with the lack of a particular UI widget?
     
sadact
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Oct 13, 2003, 05:52 PM
 
Originally posted by aaanorton:
I hope this enlightens you.
If you can show me where to buy a clock that looks like that, I will happily go along with whatever mischeivous number games you like.

I hope these lovely clocks bring you happiness and also enlightenment.
     
aaanorton
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Oct 13, 2003, 06:03 PM
 
Originally posted by sadact:
If you can show me where to buy a clock that looks like that, I will happily go along with whatever mischeivous number games you like.
I'd love to ask what you're talking about, but I'm afraid neither of us know.
     
aaanorton
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Oct 13, 2003, 06:08 PM
 
Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
What we are talking about is the way the OS presents the time format to applications - such as iSync and WeatherPop - that use the standard APIs for getting the user's preferred time format as set in International preferences.
Are there ANY apps that display this correctly? I haven't used a 24 hr clock in a while, but I can see how this would be frustrating.
     
sadact
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Oct 13, 2003, 06:13 PM
 
I'm quite sure of what I am talking about. The lovely clock which you linked to in one of your previous posts has a design flaw which, in my view, would render it useless to all save those who could not add twelve to an integer between 1 and 11. The clock shown has no mechanism for telling whether it is before or after noon. Therefore it is essential that AM/PM be sufficised onto the end of the 24-hour clock notation.

Back to the subject of the thread though. Do you think that Apple's QA department is US centric?
     
Wevah
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Oct 13, 2003, 06:17 PM
 
Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
No. However, what has that got to do with this bug, which, as I said, is everything to do with Apple's US-centric QA and nothing to do with the lack of a particular UI widget?
The Time tab is/was for setting how you want times to appear in applications...

If you really can't disable the AM/PM, that'll miff me too, since (even though I live in the USA) I also use 24-hour time on my machine.
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kennethmac2000  (op)
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Oct 13, 2003, 06:21 PM
 
Originally posted by Wevah:
The Time tab is/was for setting how you want times to appear in applications...

If you really can't disable the AM/PM, that'll miff me too, since (even though I live in the USA) I also use 24-hour time on my machine.
The functionality of the Time tab is still there - it's just under the Formats tab now instead.

However, that is not the main point, as I've said repeatedly now. The point is that, even if you have the 24-hour clock set (and AM/PM is off), you still see 24-hour times with AM/PM appended to them anyway.

As a brief digression, why on earth anyone uses the 12-hour clock at all is beyond me, but if the US stubbornly refuses to, at least don't penalise the rest of the world.
     
kennethmac2000  (op)
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Oct 13, 2003, 06:23 PM
 
Originally posted by aaanorton:
Are there ANY apps that display this correctly? I haven't used a 24 hr clock in a while, but I can see how this would be frustrating.
Yes, the menu bar clock menu extra displays the 24-hour clock correctly, but this is only because - absolutely incorrectly in my view - it ignores the system defaults.
     
sadact
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Oct 13, 2003, 06:29 PM
 
Was this tiny grievance really worth the heartache, the tormented souls, the divided peoples Kennethmac2000? Of what import is a small thing like an extra piece of information anyway. This sort of Scotch perticityness has caused political instability in the region for years; what hope have we of becoming fullly paid up EU member state citizens, Oh Kennethmac2000 of Edinburgh?
     
aaanorton
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Oct 13, 2003, 06:31 PM
 
Originally posted by sadact:
I'm quite sure of what I am talking about.
I beg to differ.

The lovely clock which you linked to in one of your previous posts has a design flaw which, in my view, would render it useless to all save those who could not add twelve to an integer between 1 and 11. The clock shown has no mechanism for telling whether it is before or after noon. Therefore it is essential that AM/PM be sufficised onto the end of the 24-hour clock notation.
From link:
24-hour clock
12-hour clock

00:00 (midnight)
12:00 A.M.

01:00
1:00 A.M.

02:00
2:00 A.M.

03:00
3:00 A.M.

04:00
4:00 A.M.

05:00
5:00 A.M.

06:00
6:00 A.M.

07:00
7:00 A.M.

08:00
8:00 A.M.

09:00
9:00 A.M.

10:00
10:00 A.M.

11:00
11:00 A.M.

12:00 (noon)
12:00 P.M.
Watch now, here comes the change...

13:00
1:00 P.M.

14:00
2:00 P.M.

15:00
3:00 P.M.

16:00
4:00 P.M.

17:00
5:00 P.M.

18:00
6:00 P.M.

19:00
7:00 P.M.

20:00
8:00 P.M.

21:00
9:00 P.M.

22:00
10:00 P.M.

23:00
11:00 P.M.
On a 24 hour clock, there are NEVER 2 of any hour. THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT.
     
AJ
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Oct 13, 2003, 06:36 PM
 
Originally posted by aaanorton:
I beg to differ.



From link:


Watch now, here comes the change...



On a 24 hour clock, there are NEVER 2 of any hour. THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT.
Your missing the point! The point is that Panther appends AM/PM to any 24 hour clock. That is incorrect.

Lets just agree it is a bug. We all know how to tell the time
     
SomeToast
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Oct 13, 2003, 06:38 PM
 
Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
As a brief digression, why on earth anyone uses the 12-hour clock at all is beyond me, but if the US stubbornly refuses to, at least don't penalise the rest of the world.
Could be worse. Could be using that cornball Swatch "Internet Time."
     
kennethmac2000  (op)
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Oct 13, 2003, 06:40 PM
 
Originally posted by SomeToast:
Could be worse. Could be using that cornball Swatch "Internet Time."
Yes, it could be worse, but that is irrelevant. Why on earth would anyone want to use a time system that gives two hours of the day the same number? We don't do it for minutes, seconds, or even days, months or years, so why hours?

It is utterly nonsensical.
     
aaanorton
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Oct 13, 2003, 06:40 PM
 
Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
Yes, the menu bar clock menu extra displays the 24-hour clock correctly, but this is only because - absolutely incorrectly in my view - it ignores the system defaults.
I see, so Apple ignores the the its own construct. Silly. Maybe a friendly ADC member could report this. Though, at this point, might as well wait for the release.
     
aaanorton
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Oct 13, 2003, 06:42 PM
 
Originally posted by AJ:
Your missing the point! The point is that Panther appends AM/PM to any 24 hour clock. That is incorrect.

Lets just agree it is a bug. We all know how to tell the time
Maybe after you read the thread you'll see your mistake.
     
kennethmac2000  (op)
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Oct 13, 2003, 06:45 PM
 
Originally posted by aaanorton:
I see, so Apple ignores the the its own construct. Silly. Maybe a friendly ADC member could report this. Though, at this point, might as well wait for the release.
The main problem is that Apple hardly does any testing for things like date and time formats used outside the US. It is so parochial it is unreal.
     
kennethmac2000  (op)
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Oct 13, 2003, 07:02 PM
 
Originally posted by aaanorton:
Maybe after you read the thread you'll see your mistake.
I can see at least three mistakes in his post. However, that is again not the point of this thread.
     
kennethmac2000  (op)
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Oct 13, 2003, 07:08 PM
 
Hmmm... as another quick digression (which I at least admit this is), I have just noticed that Safari's History menu displays dates in Month Day format, not Day Month which is my system default.

This is a Safari-specific bug and has nothing to do with the OS it is being run on. However, it is another good example of Apple's absolute US-centricity.
     
AJ
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Oct 13, 2003, 07:12 PM
 
Originally posted by aaanorton:
Maybe after you read the thread you'll see your mistake.
Huh? I'm not sure what you are saying...

I think you should go back and read your own threads about the 24 hour system.
     
aaanorton
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Oct 13, 2003, 07:19 PM
 
Originally posted by AJ:
Huh? I'm not sure what you are saying...

I think you should go back and read your own threads about the 24 hour system.
Dude, I've bee AGREEING with you and Kenneth (that this is a bug) all along. So you're just preaching to the choir. Drop it, k?
     
ZackS
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Oct 13, 2003, 07:25 PM
 
Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
Yes, it could be worse, but that is irrelevant. Why on earth would anyone want to use a time system that gives two hours of the day the same number? We don't do it for minutes, seconds, or even days, months or years, so why hours?

It is utterly nonsensical.
Coming from a Briton, that means almost nothing. The UK has such a crazy collection of hybrid standards that it would drive me mad. You measure speed in miles per hour, buy gas by the liter, and then measure milage in miles per UK gallon, which is different that the US gallon.

Don't tell me about nonsense.
     
kennethmac2000  (op)
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Oct 13, 2003, 07:27 PM
 
Originally posted by aaanorton:
Dude, I've bee AGREEING with you and Kenneth (that this is a bug) all along. So you're just preaching to the choir. Drop it, k?
Isn't the phrase "preaching to the converted"?
     
aaanorton
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Oct 13, 2003, 07:27 PM
 
Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
Hmmm... as another quick digression (which I at least admit this is), I have just noticed that Safari's History menu displays dates in Month Day format, not Day Month which is my system default.

This is a Safari-specific bug and has nothing to do with the OS it is being run on. However, it is another good example of Apple's absolute US-centricity.
How does Mail display your dates? I just changed mine to d/m/y, but Mail did not update. Though, this might not be so simple.
     
aaanorton
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Oct 13, 2003, 07:38 PM
 
Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
Isn't the phrase "preaching to the converted"?
Well, now I thought you'd just gone too far, but both seem acceptable. Though, in my opinion, "choir" has a better ring to it...
     
kennethmac2000  (op)
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Oct 13, 2003, 07:44 PM
 
Originally posted by ZackS:
Coming from a Briton, that means almost nothing. The UK has such a crazy collection of hybrid standards that it would drive me mad. You measure speed in miles per hour, buy gas by the liter, and then measure milage in miles per UK gallon, which is different that the US gallon.

Don't tell me about nonsense.
I agree. It is unfortunate that we have so many opt-outs from EU legislation on weights and measures.

However, at least we are familiar enough with the metric system to be happy using it in everyday life. I sometimes get the impression that most people in the US would write to their senator if someone even dared to confront them with a metre or a kilogram.
     
kennethmac2000  (op)
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Oct 13, 2003, 07:56 PM
 
Originally posted by aaanorton:
Well, now I thought you'd just gone too far, but both seem acceptable. Though, in my opinion, "choir" has a better ring to it...
But no-one else uses that expression. Oh wait. That reminds me of the US time format.

Which brings us neatly back around to the topic of this thread...
     
DasDaSein+
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Oct 13, 2003, 08:01 PM
 
Originally posted by ZackS:
Coming from a Briton, that means almost nothing. The UK has such a crazy collection of hybrid standards that it would drive me mad. You measure speed in miles per hour, buy gas by the liter, and then measure milage in miles per UK gallon, which is different that the US gallon.
... and drive on the left hand side.
     
kennethmac2000  (op)
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Oct 13, 2003, 08:07 PM
 
Originally posted by DasDaSein+:
... and drive on the left hand side.
What has that got to do with anything? There is no good reason for driving on one side of the road or the other. There is a good reason for using the SI measurement system, and there is most certainly a good reason for using the 24-hour clock.

Having said that, if there were a referendum tomorrow in the UK on whether we should change to driving on the right, I would vote yes, simply because it would harmonize things throughout the EU (Ireland would obviously follow suit) and make the operation of the single market more effective.
     
DasDaSein+
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Oct 13, 2003, 08:28 PM
 
Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
What has that got to do with anything? There is no good reason for driving on one side of the road or the other. There is a good reason for using the SI measurement system, and there is most certainly a good reason for using the 24-hour clock.

Having said that, if there were a referendum tomorrow in the UK on whether we should change to driving on the right, I would vote yes, simply because it would harmonize things throughout the EU (Ireland would obviously follow suit) and make the operation of the single market more effective.
In context with your sentence "As a brief digression, why on earth anyone uses the 12-hour clock at all is beyond me" it just made me smile. But you are for sure one more progressive species comming from the island and I completly agree to the points you made.
     
clebin
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Oct 13, 2003, 09:15 PM
 
Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
Yes, it could be worse, but that is irrelevant. Why on earth would anyone want to use a time system that gives two hours of the day the same number? We don't do it for minutes, seconds, or even days, months or years, so why hours?

It is utterly nonsensical.
Please tell me you don't answer people in 24-hour notation when they ask you what the time is?

No offense, but if you don't want people laughing at you behind your back, don't answer "It's 1830, mate"!

Chris
     
kennethmac2000  (op)
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Oct 13, 2003, 09:34 PM
 
Originally posted by clebin:
Please tell me you don't answer people in 24-hour notation when they ask you what the time is?
Strange you should say that, because that is precisely what most people in the EU do already.

And what, pray tell, is so inherently ludicrous about saying "I'll meet you at 20" rather than "I'll meet you at 8"?
     
cSurfr
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Oct 13, 2003, 10:05 PM
 
You are all fighting over a clock more than the people arguing about the GM Build number. If the clock appends AM/PM to a 24 hour time, it's a bug plain and simple. I don't understand why you want to argue over this so badly.
-How pumped would you be driving home from work, knowing someplace in your house there's a monkey you're gonna battle?
     
Synotic
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Oct 13, 2003, 10:11 PM
 
Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
But no-one else uses that expression. Oh wait. That reminds me of the US time format.

Which brings us neatly back around to the topic of this thread...
A search for "preaching to the choir" brings up 56 results while "to the converted" brings up 16. I personally have never heard of "to the converted' just as you've never heard of "to the choir". I don't think expressions should be standardized since they're different everywhere even within countries. Unless this was just a joke, in which case you can ignore me.
     
ZackS
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Oct 13, 2003, 10:28 PM
 
Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
I agree. It is unfortunate that we have so many opt-outs from EU legislation on weights and measures.

However, at least we are familiar enough with the metric system to be happy using it in everyday life. I sometimes get the impression that most people in the US would write to their senator if someone even dared to confront them with a metre or a kilogram.
I personally like the metric system, it makes sense, especially in sciences, but it's no better than SI in colloquial uses. SI was actually designed around colloquial uses and the metric system around scientific uses. Why force metric all the time? I know how long a meter is, I know how much a liter is (soda here is sold by the liter, has been forever so most people in the US are aquatinted with it) The US is just like the UK except there are no laws forcing people to use the metric system on certain official matters. If you ask almost any US citizen how long a meter is, they'll say "just a bit longer than a yard." Ask how long a kilometer is and you'll get "a little over half a mile." It's not that hard to be aquatinted with the system. Things get tricky when you interchange the really commonly used systems like temperatures and time systems, measurements that can be associated directly with feelings and surroundings. It's about 60�f in my room right now. I'm fairly well versed in the metric system so I'll guess it's about 22�C. Bzzzt! It's actually 15.5�C. It's hard to relearn physical connections like that. If they want to teach kids the metric system in school, fine, just don't pass a law to force me to struggle to just read the weather report. 35�, is that hot or cold? Better be prepared! <puts on winter coat> Ugh.
     
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Oct 14, 2003, 01:33 AM
 
Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
The functionality of the Time tab is still there - it's just under the Formats tab now instead.

However, that is not the main point, as I've said repeatedly now. The point is that, even if you have the 24-hour clock set (and AM/PM is off), you still see 24-hour times with AM/PM appended to them anyway.

As a brief digression, why on earth anyone uses the 12-hour clock at all is beyond me, but if the US stubbornly refuses to, at least don't penalise the rest of the world.
Actually, Canada does too. I think that all of N.A. does. That being said, I wish that N.A. would get it's act together and drop the 12 hour notation.
     
khufuu
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: On my couch
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Oct 14, 2003, 01:40 AM
 
Originally posted by aaanorton:
How does Mail display your dates? I just changed mine to d/m/y, but Mail did not update. Though, this might not be so simple.
Mail displays in the 24 hour clock as I have mine set but puts the date in American mm/dd/ccyy format even though I have my dates setup as ccyy-mm-dd. One of mail's little quirks I guess.
     
 
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