[Brien]

So there's no access to the RAM/HD in the 17"? That's lame.

I'm hoping that Apple doesn't take this route when they refresh the MB/15" Pro.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

I LOVE this new battery and am very disappointed they didn't do this for the 15" that I just bought. This thing lasting 5 years is longer than i will own the laptop and even if not $170 for a new one that lasts another five is not much in compared to the price of the removable ones.

I'm never going to need to swap batteries and all that wasted space and hardware isn't worth it.

Isn't it a bit naive to take the 5 year claim at face value so soon before the laptop has been tested by actual users? Apple is all about fluffy marketing spin, I think it is foolish to take anything they say at face value, including this.

[chabig]

Originally Posted by Brien 

So there's no access to the RAM/HD in the 17"? That's lame.

Whoa! I think you're jumping to conclusions. Of course the RAM and HD are replaceable. They have to be. It's just a few screws on the bottom and you're in.

[aehaas]

Apparently the packaging of a battery into a case that you can then throw into your backpack enlarges the physical size by 40 percent. It is ingenious that Apple uses the laptop case itself as the battery frame. The frameless battery is quite flimsy but has 40 percent greater plate size and therefore capacity. Being larger itself will result in less recharge cycles. Portability and battery life is important to me and I welcome this technology.

aehaas

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by chabig 

Whoa! I think you're jumping to conclusions. Of course the RAM and HD are replaceable. They have to be. It's just a few screws on the bottom and you're in.

Nope, it's smooth on the bottom.



Because of course pro users would never need to access the RAM or hard drive.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Isn't it a bit naive to take the 5 year claim at face value so soon before the laptop has been tested by actual users? Apple is all about fluffy marketing spin, I think it is foolish to take anything they say at face value, including this.

Exactly. "5 years" is such a nebulous number. My MacBook's battery can last 5 years ... if I only charge it once a week. 1000 charge cycles is a much more useful number. If you charge your laptop every day, you're going to get less than *3 years* out of that battery. 'Course, many will say that they'll replace the laptop before then. Sure, but anyone interested in buying the laptop is going to be very concerned about how much charge the battery holds.

[Veltliner]

What if you use software that's more processor intensive?

Like Photoshop or a video editing application.

The 8 or 6 hours will soon become three or four. And if you add backing up to a portable hard drive - which draws its energy from the laptop battery...

You could be sitting there with a nicely shaped aluminum brick - no power, no go.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Nope, it's smooth on the bottom.

Because of course pro users would never need to access the RAM or hard drive.

Are you sure the dark circles on the four corners of the bottom are absolutely not for access to the internals? It doesn't look like they're there as feet or for ornamentation. The rumors and Apple have said no swappable battery, not no RAM or HD access. No easy battery access I can understand somewhat; no RAM access would be stunningly ridiculous.

[Simon]

The dark circles are feet. Just like on the 15".

The RAM and HDD will be user-accessible. You'll have to remove the ten Phillips 00 screws to pop off the bottom shell. The two RAM slots and disks are probably easily accessible below. You need the same screw driver to replace RAM or HDD on a 15" MBP so I don't really see any big difference.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by Veltliner 

What if you use software that's more processor intensive?

Like Photoshop or a video editing application.

The 8 or 6 hours will soon become three or four. And if you add backing up to a portable hard drive - which draws its energy from the laptop battery...

You could be sitting there with a nicely shaped aluminum brick - no power, no go.

Apple's solution would be to buy two MacBook Pros and use one as a backup.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Simon 

The dark circles are feet. Just like on the 15".

The RAM and HDD will be user-accessible. You'll have to remove the six Phillips 00 screws to pop off the bottom shell. The two RAM slots and disks are probably easily accessible below. You need the same screw driver to replace RAM or HDD on a 15" MBP so I don't really see any big difference.

I see. How did you find that out?

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

I LOVE this new battery and am very disappointed they didn't do this for the 15" that I just bought. This thing lasting 5 years is longer than i will own the laptop and even if not $170 for a new one that lasts another five is not much in compared to the price of the removable ones.

I'm never going to need to swap batteries and all that wasted space and hardware isn't worth it.

I am so glad they didn't alter the 15" MBP that way. This is definitely a step back, especially for a supposed "Pro" machine. They're going to have a difficult time justifying the lack of user replaceable battery/ram/HD.

[mbpcedric]

Again, if you actually had a 15" MBP you would know that to access the RAM you need to remove the battery cover, the battery, then remove 5-6 screws, pop off the rest of the bottom, then you're in. So one could argue that its easier on the 17". I've had apple notebooks all my life and I've always had to take them appart. Remember the titanium? Thats was a pain. The new macbooks are very easy to work on.

[Spheric Harlot]

Heh. The titanium was a *dream* compared to the iBook G4, or the alu PowerBooks.

This is a complete non-deal.

The better battery life means that even fewer people will ever have to swap a battery while on the road, RAM only gets accessed once, or when it's defective - certainly not anything near regularly, and switching hard drives is now a matter of removing ten screws for access, and from then on it's probably the same procedure as with the 15" MBP.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I see. How did you find that out?

Watch Schiller's presentation. At one point you can see how the disk and RAM slots are accessed.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Heh. The titanium was a *dream* compared to the iBook G4, or the alu PowerBooks.

Or Dual USB iBooks, ugh. It was the only computer I've had trouble to upgrade the harddrive.

[SierraDragon]

What if you use software that's more processor intensive? Like Photoshop or a video editing application. The 8 or 6 hours will soon become three or four. And if you add backing up to a portable hard drive - which draws its energy from the laptop battery... You could be sitting there with a nicely shaped aluminum brick - no power, no go.

I do use software that's more processor intensive: Aperture and CS3 apps including Photoshop. I do not understand your point. The increased battery life of the new MBP minimizes the problem you describe above as compared to smaller-by-definition removable batteries.

Personally I don't plan heavy usage without soon access to a/c power, but if I did and therefore needed extra battery capacity it would be no more difficult to carry a spare external battery source than to carry a spare Apple battery.

Modern battery tech has reached the place where we generally no longer need to be constantly changing batteries to accomplish useful mobile work, so let's allow engineers to optimize design without adding in the very significant design limitations of requiring easily replaceable batteries.

So there's no access to the RAM/HD in the 17"? That's lame.

I don't know what access is provided but I am certain that it is not "no access." I have owned Mac laptops since the Duos and have only ever needed to upgrade RAM or HD once for any laptop during a typical 2-3 year laptop life. For that one time in 2-3 years anyone can cope with whatever the replacement process is.

-Allen Wicks

[amazing]

The problem with non-removable battery: availability, expense ($179!!!), and time lost on laptop

"Should your 17-inch unibody MacBook Pro's battery ever begin to feel "not so fresh," Apple has confirmed that it will offer an in-store battery replacement program that costs $179 (the MacBook Air's program, by comparison, is $129). As far as a turnaround time on the labor, though, representatives who Ars spoke with on the Macworld Expo floor went with an "anywhere between one or two hours, up to a week." The store's load during any particular week is the determining factor here, though representatives noted that a ProCare account could help expedite the process."

http://arstechnica.com/journals/appl...e-upgrade-info

Plus you'll have to leave offerings placating the gods responsible for bulging-battery problems.

[olePigeon]

Is it impossible to exchange the battery because it's hardwired like an iPod, or can someone do it if they're confident with a screwdriver?

[tooki]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Exactly. "5 years" is such a nebulous number. My MacBook's battery can last 5 years ... if I only charge it once a week.

No, you wouldn't get 5 years. Lithium-Ion batteries lose capacity with age alone. Held at a 100% charge level (as is typical in a laptop that's mostly plugged in), you'll lose 20% capacity per year at room temperature. And of course, our laptops are often warm, causing the loss to be even faster, perhaps 35% loss or more per year. [1]

So even if you never used one single charge cycle, at the end of 5 years you will have a dead battery. Heck, after 2 or 3 you already have a battery that doesn't run long enough to be useful.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by tooki 

No, you wouldn't get 5 years. Lithium-Ion batteries lose capacity with age alone. Held at a 100% charge level (as is typical in a laptop that's mostly plugged in), you'll lose 20% capacity per year at room temperature. And of course, our laptops are often warm, causing the loss to be even faster, perhaps 35% loss or more per year. [1]

So even if you never used one single charge cycle, at the end of 5 years you will have a dead battery. Heck, after 2 or 3 you already have a battery that doesn't run long enough to be useful.

Right. I completely forgot about that. I wonder how Apple can possibly stand behind this claim? Apple is already quite nebulous about what constitutes "normal wear" and they don't provide any guarantees beyond the laptop's warranty.

Originally Posted by Apple

The battery in the new 17-inch MacBook Pro lasts up to 8 hours on a single charge(1) and can be recharged up to 1000 times(2) — compared with only 200 to 300 times for typical notebooks.

1.Testing conducted by Apple in December 2008 using preproduction 2.66GHz Intel Core 2 Duo–based MacBook Pro (17-inch) units with a Better Battery Life setting. Battery life depends on configuration and use. See www.apple.com/batteries for more information. The wireless productivity test measures battery life by wirelessly browsing various websites and editing text in a word processing document with display brightness set to 50%.

2. Apple does not warrant the battery beyond Apple's one-year Limited Warranty. The battery has a limited number of charge cycles and may eventually need to be replaced by an Apple Service Provider. Battery life and charge cycles vary by use and settings. See www.apple.com/batteries for more information.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by mbpcedric 

Again, if you actually had a 15" MBP you would know that to access the RAM you need to remove the battery cover, the battery, then remove 5-6 screws, pop off the rest of the bottom, then you're in. So one could argue that its easier on the 17". I've had apple notebooks all my life and I've always had to take them appart. Remember the titanium? Thats was a pain. The new macbooks are very easy to work on.

It doesn't matter how easy it is if you can't do it anyway without voiding the warranty.

Originally Posted by Simon 

Watch Schiller's presentation. At one point you can see how the disk and RAM slots are accessed.

I just watched it, and didn't notice this. Could you tell us at about what time (minutes and seconds) during the video this is? Thanks!

[Veltliner]

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey 

Apple's solution would be to buy two MacBook Pros and use one as a backup.

This reeks of of true genius

They must have a new big gun in their marketing department.

[Veltliner]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Right. I completely forgot about that. I wonder how Apple can possibly stand behind this claim? Apple is already quite nebulous about what constitutes "normal wear" and they don't provide any guarantees beyond the laptop's warranty.

It sounds like a promise, NOT backed up by a warranty.

[Veltliner]

Originally Posted by tooki 

No, you wouldn't get 5 years. Lithium-Ion batteries lose capacity with age alone. Held at a 100% charge level (as is typical in a laptop that's mostly plugged in), you'll lose 20% capacity per year at room temperature. And of course, our laptops are often warm, causing the loss to be even faster, perhaps 35% loss or more per year. [1]

So even if you never used one single charge cycle, at the end of 5 years you will have a dead battery. Heck, after 2 or 3 you already have a battery that doesn't run long enough to be useful.

Exactly what Apple said. 5 years.

They didn't say it wasn't going on crutches the last 2 years.

"last" is probably interpreted as "until it dies" not " works and is useable".

Maybe good money can be made from replacing laptop batteries at 179$ every few years...

[Spheric Harlot]

...as opposed to having users replace them every year and a half at $139, the way it works now...

[CharlesS]

... or getting a battery from a third-party dealer such as FastMac or NewerTech for $99 instead, which you know is the real reason Apple's doing this.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

I just watched it, and didn't notice this. Could you tell us at about what time (minutes and seconds) during the video this is? Thanks!

I don't remember the exact time. It was while he was talking about the battery. There was an animation showing how the bottom comes off (remove the ten Phillips 00 screws) and then you see that the disk and DIMM slots are accessed directly below.

I know this doesn't guarantee it's user-serviceable. We'll need to wait till Apple publishes the manual to know for sure. But what it does tell us is that it's no harder/easier than swapping RAM on the previous 15". And that didn't void your warranty either.

The only real difference I can make out is that swapping HDDs is a tad easier on the 15" (release lever to pop off battery cover vs. removing the ten screws on the 17"), but you still need the same screw driver to then remove the disk from the carrier on the 15". And swapping RAM is exactly the same on the 15" and 17". IMHO the real issue here is the new battery, not swapping HDD/RAM.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Simon 

I know this doesn't guarantee it's user-serviceable. We'll need to wait till Apple published the manual to know for sure. But what it does tell us is that it's no harder/easier than swapping RAM on the previous 15". And that didn't void your warranty either.

Swapping RAM didn't void the warranty, but swapping the hard drive did. The difference, of course, was that there was a separate compartment for the RAM that didn't require you to pop the case open to access it. Now that you have to actually open the case, I'd be pretty surprised if it didn't void the warranty.

The other thing is the battery - look at any Apple instruction manual that explains how to swap anything - RAM, hard drive, AirPort card, whatever - and the first thing they always tell you is, "Be sure to unplug the computer and remove the battery first." Now that the battery can't be removed, my gut feeling is that Apple's not going to let you touch anything without voiding the warranty unless you're an Apple authorized service provider.

[Big Mac]

There's no real technical reason that I know of for requiring that the battery be removed. Do you think there is, Charles? I think that's just for stupid people who may turn the machine on while it's disassembled. On some older Mac models, like the 8600, the instruction model actually said to keep the Mac plugged in while working on it internally, to help keep it grounded properly or something.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

There's no real technical reason that I know of for requiring that the battery be removed. Do you think there is, Charles?

Beats me, but Apple's always recommended it. I suppose that things could get ugly pretty fast if the power button somehow accidentally got pressed while the battery was in and the case was open. Also, sometimes when the hardware is messed up (and thus needing something like the RAM to be replaced) it can get into a state where it's on, but not doing anything, and the screen is dark, which looks a lot like when the computer's off.

What I do know is that the grounding thing isn't going to work from a battery, since the computer isn't actually connected to the ground.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Swapping RAM didn't void the warranty, but swapping the hard drive did. The difference, of course, was that there was a separate compartment for the RAM that didn't require you to pop the case open to access it. Now that you have to actually open the case, I'd be pretty surprised if it didn't void the warranty.

The unibody 15" also requires you to pop off the bottom case shell to swap RAM and that doesn't void the warranty either. I think there's reason to be optimistic here.

[JKT]

Originally Posted by tooki 

No, you wouldn't get 5 years. Lithium-Ion batteries lose capacity with age alone. Held at a 100% charge level (as is typical in a laptop that's mostly plugged in), you'll lose 20% capacity per year at room temperature. And of course, our laptops are often warm, causing the loss to be even faster, perhaps 35% loss or more per year. [1]

So even if you never used one single charge cycle, at the end of 5 years you will have a dead battery. Heck, after 2 or 3 you already have a battery that doesn't run long enough to be useful.

Fwiw, my Powerbook battery is now 4 years and 10 months old and is still going reasonably strong (its at a respectable 75% of its original capacity after 247 load cycles), though it is just about on its last legs. It has been used largely as a desktop replacement for much of its life, but not always. I've just been very rigourous about treating it properly (at least one full load cycle each month).

[amazing]

Originally Posted by JKT 

Fwiw, my Powerbook battery is now 4 years and 10 months old and is still going reasonably strong (its at a respectable 75% of its original capacity after 247 load cycles), though it is just about on its last legs. It has been used largely as a desktop replacement for much of its life, but not always. I've just been very rigourous about treating it properly (at least one full load cycle each month).

I've always felt that the menubar stats were particularly optimistic. However, those are very good stats for an old battery. Question is: If you use something like XBattery to graph the battery life, how many minutes does it last? Do the last portions drop like a stone?

The old battery in my 12" PB had good stats, but pretty terrible duration life, that's why I'm asking. Had to get another one, because even though the stats looked good, the actual battery was very short-lived and quit precipitously.

[JKT]

The stats I quoted are from coconutBattery which I've used to record the mA value almost every month since I got my Powerbook (and after I've performed a full discharge and recharge cycle to maintain it), so it is a real figure and does translate into successful real-world use. From coconutBattery, I know that my it still retains ~ 3200 mA of its original 4300 mA of current (I'm away from my Powerbook at the moment so I can't check the actual figure) and this is at the bottom of my battery's relatively steady decay curve (there have been a few blips off the trend over the years).

I don't know if coconutBattery works with the latest model laptops as it hasn't been updated in a long time, but I highly recommend using it if it does (freeware, btw). It'll give you a good idea of whether or not your battery is in trouble!

Fwiw, I've acquired a second hand battery from someone who suffered the same issue as you (stats looked good, but actual use was really poor) so I know what you mean. It should still prove useful as a short term back up (another 30 or so minutes of use won't do me any harm) should I ever need it...

[Maflynn]

My main complaint with the battery being "sealed" in the MBP is the idea of sending it in and being w/o a computer for one or two weeks. Its just an unfortunate decision to try to force owners of the MBP to hand over their computers. Be it because of privacy concerns, or concerns their laptop will compact in worse shape.

I've seen plenty of posts about laptops coming back from apple with scratches, dents and nicks, and yes apple will fix the issue as long as you documented the fact that it was defect free before sending it in. Its a hassle no matter how you slice it.

[Karlotta]

We can be more than optimistic. We can be certain. Apple states on the web page devoted to describing features of the new 17-inch MBP:

You can upgrade the memory and hard drive yourself, or take it to an Apple Authorized Service Provider.

So, that settles it, it would seem.

Originally Posted by Simon 

The unibody 15" also requires you to pop off the bottom case shell to swap RAM and that doesn't void the warranty either. I think there's reason to be optimistic here.

[Simon]

Good find.

[Big Mac]

Replacing the Battery in your MacBook Pro 17"

$179 w/o tax in the United States with same day service! Sounds VERY reasonable compared to what I paid for the one replacement battery I've bought for a laptop so far.

[sprale]

I wouldn't be surprised if a third-party offered an external supplemental battery pack for those times when charging and power is unavailable. I don't see the benefit being without it's downside, like the iPod...

[Spheric Harlot]

Apple doesn't license the MagSafe connector.