[milhous]

What do you folks think?

Seeing that I don't have a modern Mac desktop yet, I think I might shoot for the new iMac if it really does come out. This way I can save up for a G5 sytem with the Cinema display in a year or two.

But enough with my rambling, what do you guys think is going to power this badboy. What would you rather see in an iMac? A faster G3 (say a ghz) or a G4 (500 mhz) or whatever combination.

I honestly wouldn't mind the G3 at all, but then I'd still have no system with altivec to support X.

[xyber233]

I still think it will be a 1ghz G3 for the iMac pro line.

[pdot]

very likely the new iMac will be the G3 until Apple gets the G5 out. Unless...if the G4 becomes blazingly fast all of a sudden, then they can actually market low end G4s in the iMacs.

[cdhostage]

The new iMac will likely be as fast a G3 as Apple can find. I'm guessing a gigahertz. Apple has stuck by the Pro image of the G4 so long that to put it into the consumer model seems counterintutive.

[OldManMac]

G3, from a cost perspective. The chip design has been done for years, so it's just a matter of tweaking a little more Mhz out of it.

[gumby5647]

lord, i hope its a G4 Apollo

[Rob van dam]

It could very well be the apollo at least in the DVSE.But what puzzles me is this ibm has G3 that can go about to about 1.1 ghz what G4 would apple but in.It would be a pain in the ass advertisng a 1.1ghz G3 over a 733mhz G4.I defintley think apple has a tough decison on there hands.

[ 12-09-2001: Message edited by: Rob van dam ]

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by Rob van dam:
It could very well be the apollo at least in the DVSE.But what puzzles me is this ibm has G3 that can go about to about 1.1 ghz what G4 would apple but in.It would be a pain in the ass advertisng a 1.1ghz G3 over a 733mhz G4.I defintley think apple has a tough decison on there hands.

Apple is not going to have a 733Mhz G4 in January. The iMac isn't the only line being refreshed; there's a reason they're giving rebates on G4s and Apple LCD screens. Let's say they do have a 8XXMhz iMac G3, and a 9XXMhz G4; the differentiation is still G3 for consumer market, G4 for prosumer, graphics, and professional market. I don't think the processor speed gap will be that little, between G3 and G4, so I don't see what the issue is..

[gumby5647]

i am a consumer and i want/need altivec.....simply put.

OS X is optimized for a G4, so then let it have a G4. Id be happy with a 867Mhz or 933Mhz G4 iMac.

keep a G3 iMac for education

[seanyepez]

Everyone would be happy with a 933-megahertz G4 iMac.

Do you really think that's even plausible? Right now, they're struggling to produce 867-megahertz G4 chips. The fastest we'll see in an iMac is 733 megahertz, whether it's G3 or G4. They might not be updating the Power Mac, either. If they do, the most we'll see is a Power Mac running at 1 gigahertz. It is still unlikely.

Also, they won't maintain a G3/G4 iMac line. There is going to be one standardized chip so that manufacturing is cheaper. There's no way the high-end iMac will have a G4 and the entry-level iMac will have a G3 simultaneously.

[milhous]

Originally posted by gumby5647:
<STRONG>i am a consumer and i want/need altivec.....simply put.

OS X is optimized for a G4, so then let it have a G4. Id be happy with a 867Mhz or 933Mhz G4 iMac.

keep a G3 iMac for education</STRONG>

I would have to whole-heartedly agree with you on that one. A G4 would be great and even if it couldn't be implemented in all models, it should at least be in the top model.

A G4 iMac would be soooooooo Nice. But can they pull it off?

[xyber233]

Originally posted by gumby5647:
<STRONG>i am a consumer and i want/need altivec.....simply put.

OS X is optimized for a G4, so then let it have a G4. Id be happy with a 867Mhz or 933Mhz G4 iMac.

keep a G3 iMac for education</STRONG>

With the LCD, that what boost the price to what...$2400 ?

[sorta66]

I think apple will have G4's in the new imacs. With OS X being G4 friendly it would be stupid to continue with the G3 purely out of reasoning that G3's are consumer and G4's are professional. Technically you could say all macs are consumer machines and some people just use them professionally. Really I'd rather have a 500mhz G4 then a 1ghz G3. That way I could run real time effects with FCP3 on an imac.

Also if apple does go LCD which in my option would be good for the top of the line imac, I think it would be better for them to just put flat screen CRT's in the low end models. Why haven't they been doing this already?

Anyway I just hope the LCD and new case design aren't the only improvements to the imac if they all go LCD. I'd rather have a G4 or a superdrive.

[ 12-09-2001: Message edited by: sorta66 ]

[cdhostage]

The G3 line is still useful. It's low-power-drain, so Apple will keep using it in the iBooks for a while. It might make sense from a consistency sake to make consumer computers have the same chip and pro computers tohave the same shicp. Then again, now the chip manafactureers will have no outlet for chips that don't test high enough for Power Macs. If Power Macs are all 1 GHz and up G4s, then you culd maybe find 700, 800, 900 MHz G4 iMacs.

[Matsu]

Apple has used the same PPC in both consumer and professional macs in the past. The distinction means nothing -- the G4 isn't marketed as a G3 beater, it's marketed as a pentium beater. The decision is purely a supply consideration. Firstly, because they can't get enough G4's, and secondly, because they need to keep a second supplier content enough to at least bail them out when things get really bad. If a new G4 iMac were ready and the G5 were not, the iMac would debut anyway.

[SpeedRacer]

Originally posted by Matsu:
<STRONG>Apple has used the same PPC in both consumer and professional macs in the past. The distinction means nothing -- the G4 isn't marketed as a G3 beater, it's marketed as a pentium beater. The decision is purely a supply consideration. Firstly, because they can't get enough G4's, and secondly, because they need to keep a second supplier content enough to at least bail them out when things get really bad. If a new G4 iMac were ready and the G5 were not, the iMac would debut anyway.</STRONG>

I disagree. Apple may have had the same CPU in their pro and consumer lines before, but they have in the past several years they've been far more likely to differentiate the markets with clear and obvious differences. Witness 603 in consumer Performas, 604 in PowerMacs, g3 in iSeries, g4 in PowerSeries, cool-running fanless iSeries, hot-running fanned PowerSeries, Rage 128/Pro in iSeries, MX2/Radeon in PowerSeries, small screens in iSeries, large in PowerSeries.

Outside of the supply considerations that only Apple operations can explicitly detail, the consumer g3 pro g4 distinction draws a very clear, easy to understand line between consumer and pro lines. Outside of an aging iMac line, the current Apple lineup is one of the most simple, sleek, and perfectly targeted to each line-up's prospective markets that Apple has ever released. Each product suits it's given market amazingly well and to throw a curve into the mix by making the hot-selling iBook the only machine in the Apple's lineup without a g4 just doesn't make sense. And then there's the heat issue and then there's the cost issue and then there's failed-Cube ghosts lurking up again. Releasing a g4 LCD iMac would make just as little sense as it would make for them to subsequently update their brand-new g3 iBook to g4 just just to keep pace with the iMac... and then create internal competition to the long-awaited, hot selling/running g4 Powerbook.

The revolution the iMac will bring will be in its integration and one-of-a-kind design appeal - not pure horsepower - just as it has always been. Low-heat, unique design, low-cost, minimal internal competition, and positive public acceptance are all integral to release of the new iMac - all things fully possible with the g3, maybe not with a g4. There's a plethora of reasons i can think of for Apple not to release the iMac with a g4 (yet) and only a few (admittedly personal desire) for them to move ahead with g4 iMacs.

Speed

[Telomar]

I don't believe we will see G4s in iMacs although we should considering how much optimisation there is for OS X and AltiVec.

Even if we did though we would be lucky to see 733MHz. More likely it would only be 600MHz, which is a step down in clock speed. Those who believe you will be seeing 1GHz Apollo's are kidding yourselves.

Although I can understand the marketing appeal in doing so. By MWSF next year I would definitely expect the switch.

[PeteWK]

I'm going to partially miror some and be unique just a bit. I'm thinking the new iMac will come out with a high speed G3 for starters. Probably around 800-1000 for the various price points (899-1699). But I think the Motherboard will have been beefed up enough to take a G4 when the other Apple computers have been upgraded to G5. That way the iMac will still fit into the current marketing slot and it will take the next step with it comes, around June of 2002.

As for me, a 1000mhz G3 iMac with a 15in LCD will rock my world just fine, thank you very much.

PeteWK

[Rob van dam]

Apple can surley put a G4 in the DVSE.

[KellyHogan]

15" LCD
1000/933Mhz G3
40-60GB HD
256MB ram
Snow and metal 'iPod' look to the casing
Combo drive

That is the top end iMac2. Cost? Around �1500 UK. I don't know about dollars.

[milhous]

I'll respond again to keep the thread active

It'll be great to have a 1ghz G3 iMac

but it'll kick a$$ to have a G4 iMac!

And on a sidenote, I've begun listening to the MacShow and I'm really liking it so far. It's on every Wednesday night from 9-11pm ET via Quicktime streaming. They're giving away a lot of stuff too, so you might be able to win something.

[Paco500]

One point, one question.

Point: If Apple is going to start making OS X the default OS, than the computers they ship need to run OS X as fast as possible. That may mean a G4 in the iMacs.

Question: Is OS X really faster on a G4 with all being else equal? How much G4 optimization is there? Has someone done benchmarks?

Paco

[strepidus]

Just pure speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if Apple released dual G4's up to 1.2 GHz for MWSF. Despite all that "Megahertz Myth" stuff, Apple has to be serious about closing the megahertz gap, and the best way to do this would be to release IBM's 1 GHz G3 for iMac, which uses IBM's awesome new G3's made using silicon-on-insulator and (I think) having a 512KB backside cache. Those iMacs will fly, even with no Altivec.

There's simply no way Apple will release a G4 iMac because 1) they will need all the GHz G4's that they can get for the Pro lineup, and 2) the GHz G3's are more than fast enough for consumers.

[xyber233]

Originally posted by strepidus:
[QB]Despite all that "Megahertz Myth" stuff, Apple has to be serious about closing the megahertz gap, and the best way to do this would be to release IBM's 1 GHz G3 for iMac, which uses IBM's awesome new G3's made using silicon-on-insulator and (I think) having a 512KB backside cache. Those iMacs will fly, even with no Altivec.
QB]

Exactly! Thats what I've been trying to say !

[strepidus]

I think what'll be more interesting though will be to see what kinds of bus/graphics improvements that Apple will make to the iMac. I'm guessing a move up to a 133 MHz bus, with Geforce 2 MX standard, although who knows, Apple might disappoint and stay with a Rage 128 Ultra or something.

[shmerek]

I believe it has to break the Ghz barrier the average joe is not going to buy anything less these days and I wouldn't buy a new iMac unless it was at least 1Ghz. Apple can go on about the mega hertz myth all they want but at this point (IMHO) anything less than a Ghz is pathetic especially for a nonupgradable computer. It better have a decent graphics card as well no more of the 16MB tripe. &lt;/rant&gt;

[Rob van dam]

apple needs to fit a G4 somewhere in the imac line.

[xyber233]

They have to break the ghz barrier. People look at clock speeds. Apple cant put a ghz g4 in the imac and at the same time keep the cost down. People always talk about altivec but if there is a big difference in clock speeds between the g3 and the g4 that would go into the imac, I think the added mhz would cover for the altivec. Thats my take on it. I would think that a ghz g3 would be just as fine, if not better, than a 667-733 g4? Plus, apps like games can use the faster clock speed for performance.

[Rob van dam]

Id be hesitant of buying a chip that in the near future was going to get discontinued.

[ 12-14-2001: Message edited by: Rob van dam ]

[Matsu]

Either they're going to have altivec or they're not. IBM will probably supply a fairly fast chip. But Apple has now made a lot of noise about Altivec, and consumers are not so stupid, at least not Apple's repeat business. Just look at all the mac fora on the net: Mac users tend to know their platform. There are lots of macs users who want an iMac but they've heard about altivec, they tried OSX, and it's wet their appetite for some pro power. They don't want or can't afford a pro-machine, but they want some of it's features. A lot of them will probably wait till they can get some sort of SIMD unit in their chip. Especially those who dabble in a few pro apps. There will soon be some filters and effects for video, and quite possibly photoshop plug-ins, that only work with altivec. Quite a few consumers use those features, not to mention the probable appearance of DVD burning in at least one consumer model by Jan 2003. Just think of all the pros who over the last three years have used an iMac cause they couldn't afford a powermac for the home.

All that said, I think the iMac will probably get the forthcoming G3.

Yet there is hope. I still think Apple would use whatever it had available. For the longest time it was G3 on everything, then G4 for the powermacs, not because G4 was intended to be exclusively 'pro' they just couldn't build enough of them. Now, if G5 comes out and Apple moves everything else to G4's you'll all start with the pro vs consumer distinction. But that still wouldn't describe the real situation. The G5 is huge, hot, and hungry. It won't go in anything other than a tower, just like the first G4's. Do you really think that if Apple and Mot had a new G5 -- that was so efficient and easy to produce that it could supply all the lines -- that they would even bother use anything else? Why would mot even bother to produce anything else? Rather, they'd just make G5's in a whole range of speeds and price and market them accordingly. Only with Apollo will Apple finally get a chip that can fit their different products; if G5 could be so widely used/marketed, Mot wouldn't have bothered to refine the G4.

[milhous]

I think one thing's for sure.

Whatever will be in the Pro line (be it G4/G5) will effect what will be in the iMac.

If we get a PowerMac G5 in January, it would just make common sense that the G4 would finally carry down to the consumer line.

If we have another G4 revision on the Pro line, (which I hope is not the case) we'll probably see a high-speed G3 iMac no questions asked.

But think about this.....

If indeed we do get a G4 iMac in January, think about the ramifications it has throughout the PC industry. Consumer and low-end business PC's are running ghz Celerons. The Celeron, being a poor man's Pentium /// isn't exactly worth writing home about. Hopefully people will notice that now, it will now be possible to acquire professional computing power, but at consumer prices.

Here is my take on the situation:

(1) at this point what Apple needs to up th clock speeds...its a basic fact that when the average person goes to buy a new computer they look at the clock speed...

(2) concerning altivec...from what anyone has heard/knows will the g5 chip have altivec? i thought i had heard it wouldn't...but i could be wrong.... if it doesnt have altivec then i wouldn't worry about it at this point....

just my two cents

PS: we do NEED new imacs though...whatever they might be...and the MUST be respectably and competively priced at least at the entry level

CityGuy

[xyber233]

(1) at this point what Apple needs to up th clock speeds...its a basic fact that when the average person goes to buy a new computer they look at the clock speed...

I agree. People new to the Mac look at the clock speeds.

(2) concerning altivec...from what anyone has heard/knows will the g5 chip have altivec? i thought i had heard it wouldn't...but i could be wrong.... if it doesnt have altivec then i wouldn't worry about it at this point....

I believe that the altivec on the G5 will be faster than the one on the G4.

[kbbaucom]

It seems some people think that AlitVec is some magical thing that makes G4s 10x better than G3s. I for one would much rather have a 1GHz G3 than a 500MHz G4. The G3 would beat the G4 in pretty much any test, even AltiVec enabled ones. They would need a 733MHz G4 to compete with the 1GHz G3. The 7450 would cost more, and run a lot hotter. They would have to put a fan in the iMac, which they probably don't want to do, now that people are used to the iMacs not having fans.

Well, lets consider what would be the better chip... a cheap G4 or a top of the line G3? I think for $1500 a souped up g3 is the only option for the new imacs both in terms of actual performance and perception of performance. IMHO it is more important for the new imacs to have the most powerful graphics chip as possible. With a pricy g4, or even a cheap g4, how are they going to be able to stick in anything better than a rage!

btw, I still have my Bondi 233 and it is still snappy with 9.2.2, so who really needs a g4 anyway?

[mitchell_pgh]

G3

[milhous]

Sorry, but I'll post again to keep the topic active.

Looks like most of you have already begun your Christmas break, which is nice. I'm on Co-Op now so hopefully I'll be heading back home sometime tomorrow night. I haven't done any Christmas shopping yet, so hopefully I can pull that off once I get back home.

Nevertheless, we'll see some great things at MWSF this coming year. What better way to come back from the holiday then to watch a Jobs Keynote in early January.

I feel like these boards have become deserted over the past days, but that's understandable.

Enjoy the holidays folks.

[gto47]

I used to think it would be a G3, but have changed my mind since.

Allright, so the G3 can break a gigahertz, but it certaintly cant go well into the gigahertz, because of arcitectural problems and such. I judge that from the basic rules of marketing, apple would, in its best interest upgrade the processor at the same period they do the form factor. Apple typically makes some external modification to ther computers, when they put new chips in (well througout the age of jobs at least) (yes, i know the quicksilver was an exception to this rule) and since we know they ordered a bunch of LCDs already, we know that the form factor will be different. For apple to switch chips mid-model seems pretty illogical, and this would inevitably occur, as the life of the g3 is growing short. So, according to this logic, it will probably be a g4.

[ 12-20-2001: Message edited by: gto47 ]

[xyber233]

Can't the new IBM G3 reach around 1.2-1.3 ghz?

[Raman]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kbbaucom:
<STRONG>now that people are used to the iMacs not having fans.</STRONG>[/QUOTE

What about people that don't use iMacs? I don't think Apple cares about it's 5% that it has now. They care a lot about the other 95%, which at this rate, they're not gonna get. I just defected back to Wintel because I realized I spent $3400 on a outdated Pismo that runs OSX like crap a little more than a year ago.

For $3400 I could do alot of damage in the PC world.

[MikeM32]

I think that while there is still potential for faster G3 chips it's getting near the end of the line for the G3. But as others mention above we probably won't see a full series of G4 iMacs until Apple seriously boosts thier Pro-line systems to either much faster G4's or G5's.

With the move towards OSX and altivec their entire hardware line will eventually need the altivec capability. To be optimistic I'd say the best we may see is the higher end iMac with a G4 somewhere around 500 MHz. Of course if they really are doing this LCD iMac re-design I don't know how they'll be able to offer such a system and keep it reasonably priced.

They may just ride the G3 chip to it's maximum speed before even going to G4's. Whatever they do with the iMac depends greatly on keeping it as a cheap alternative to buying a pro desktop system.

Mike

[gto47]

Can't the new IBM G3 reach around 1.2-1.3 ghz?

Isnt motorola currently the only manufacturer of processors for apple?

[vmarks]

Originally posted by gto47:
<STRONG>
Isnt motorola currently the only manufacturer of processors for apple?</STRONG>

No,
IBM makes the g3 for iMac and iBook. And IBM can make them far faster than you can buy them right now.

[Rob van dam]

i personally think apple might go with a G4.apple could offer say a 800 mhz G4 in the high end and low end machines.they could do something similar like when the white ibooks were released. a 500 mhz chip in the high end and the low end.

[seanyepez]

I cast my vote for a high-frequency G3 from IBM.

[ibr80]

I think they will stick to the G3 and boost it up to a 1 ghz, but I wouldnt rule out a G4 on the high end one. maybe something like 866mhz g3, 1.0ghz g3 and then make a 766mhz G4. Remember this is supposed to make everyone go out and buy these things, its supposed to blow our minds from what we have been hearing. With all the talk about an amazing flat panel and a performance boost, I would be surprised if we saw the first G4 iMac.
And why not if your going to come out with a G5 sometime this year let everyone kill themselfs for a G4 iMac and then will throw a G5 at them in 6 months, lets face if it looks as great as its been hiped about and has a G4 chip in it, the Mac market will be set on fire.

But than again the may decide to stay with the G3 and finnally get up there and battle with the Wintels and others in the ghz battle, after drilling in our brains that its not really the clock speed that matters...whatever!!

P.S. arent we supposed to think different!!

[seanyepez]

Whatever they end up doing, they aren't going to have a G4 iMac and a G3 iMac coexisting in the production line. The architecture would need to be different, and by having two different boards, they would increase production costs needlessly.

[ibr80]

Yeah! that is a good point.So I guess that means we are in the ghz battle after all, and loosing at the moment if I may say so myself. Hope Im wrong.

[gto47]

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by gto47:
Isnt motorola currently the only manufacturer of processors for apple?
------------------------------------------------------------------------

No,
IBM makes the g3 for iMac and iBook. And IBM can make them far faster than you can buy them right now.

Ah well, i hate speaking like a fool. Damn my ill informedness.
Well, then back to my feeling that it will be a g3, as it should be faster than a slow G4, and more cost effective as well.

[Rob van dam]

Or maybe

low end
1ghz G3

middle
1.1 ghz G3

High end
1.2 ghz G3


The extra speed would make up for the altive.Remember apple wants these things to sell hotcakes.