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Don't want to switch to PC, but Apple's prices ...
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dc33net
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Jan 23, 2003, 11:03 PM
 
I'm looking to buy a new laptop and � hate to say it � I'm thinking about getting a PC instead of a Mac. I'm a magazine editor and have worked on Macs since 1988. I've had one at home since 1995. I hate even thinking about switching to a PC. But to get a Mac laptop with a CD-RW in anything larger than 12-in. size will cost me $1,500. (iBook). And that is for a G3 processor! If I want the current processor, I'm looking at close to $2,000 (PowerBook). If Apple comes out with a G5 within a year or so, that G3 will be two generations old.

In contrast, I can get a PC laptop with a Pentium 4 and a CD-RW, etc., for under $1,000.

And the difference is even more dramatic with desktops. My friend's iMac broke a couple of weeks ago and she bought a PC to replace it. She, too, is in publishing and hated the idea of getting a PC. Her son wanted a PC so she looked into it. She was able to get a Dell desktop with a CD-RW drive, DVD drive, 17-in. monitor, speakers, subwoofer, etc., for $629. And that price includes shipping and tax. Apple can't touch that.

When she bought her iMac 2-1/2 years ago, she paid $995 for it. At that time, you could not get a PC w/monitor for much less than that. Since then, the bottom has fallen out of PC prices and Apple has simply not kept up.
     
marusin
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Jan 23, 2003, 11:42 PM
 
sounds like you already made up your mind... Later!
     
skyman
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Jan 24, 2003, 12:17 AM
 
Originally posted by dc33net:
I'm looking to buy a new laptop and � hate to say it � I'm thinking about getting a PC instead of a Mac. I'm a magazine editor and have worked on Macs since 1988. I've had one at home since 1995. I hate even thinking about switching to a PC. But to get a Mac laptop with a CD-RW in anything larger than 12-in. size will cost me $1,500. (iBook). And that is for a G3 processor! If I want the current processor, I'm looking at close to $2,000 (PowerBook). If Apple comes out with a G5 within a year or so, that G3 will be two generations old.

In contrast, I can get a PC laptop with a Pentium 4 and a CD-RW, etc., for under $1,000.

And the difference is even more dramatic with desktops. My friend's iMac broke a couple of weeks ago and she bought a PC to replace it. She, too, is in publishing and hated the idea of getting a PC. Her son wanted a PC so she looked into it. She was able to get a Dell desktop with a CD-RW drive, DVD drive, 17-in. monitor, speakers, subwoofer, etc., for $629. And that price includes shipping and tax. Apple can't touch that.

When she bought her iMac 2-1/2 years ago, she paid $995 for it. At that time, you could not get a PC w/monitor for much less than that. Since then, the bottom has fallen out of PC prices and Apple has simply not kept up.
I have a PC laptop running XP, a PISMO G3 PowerBook and a 700MHz iBook both running OS X. I like XP but I love OS X.

The iBooks performance runs circles around my PC laptop and OS X is so sweeeeeeeet!

Using an iBook with OS X is a much BETTER user experience than using my PC laptop with XP.

p.s. I still can not get my PC laptop to print to my laser printer over the network. What a pain!
     
icruise
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Jan 24, 2003, 01:15 AM
 
You can certainly get cheaper laptops, but not ones with the combination of features and great design that are in the Apple portables.

I personally think the Mac OS is worth paying more for, not to mention the elegance of the hardware design. (I am typing this on a PC with windows XP, so I know what I am talking about when I compare)

Also see this site:

http://www.macobserver.com/shootouts...ptop_1300.html
     
olli2
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Jan 24, 2003, 08:53 AM
 
Well, this is why "nobody" buys Apple in Hungary. It is not expensive, but it cost a good amount of money, while the PC is cheap.
     
dc33net  (op)
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Jan 24, 2003, 03:43 PM
 
Thanks for pointing out the Laptop Shootout web page. But, in all honesty, that thing is a joke. It's comparing the price of a 12-in. iBook to a number of 14-in. and 15-in. Windows laptops. I mean, why didn't the administrator of that page use the 14-in. iBook? We would then see that the iBook is the most expensive of the group, not the least expensive.

Again, it pains me to even THINK about getting a PC, but Apple is not offering competitive prices.






Originally posted by Icruise:
You can certainly get cheaper laptops, but not ones with the combination of features and great design that are in the Apple portables.

I personally think the Mac OS is worth paying more for, not to mention the elegance of the hardware design. (I am typing this on a PC with windows XP, so I know what I am talking about when I compare)

Also see this site:

http://www.macobserver.com/shootouts...ptop_1300.html
     
PCTek
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Jan 24, 2003, 04:23 PM
 
Hey, if you want to buy a PC, don't let us stop you.

If you want our honest opinion, for gods sake, keep an open mind.

It's all about Cost of Ownership: Initial vs. Total.

The initial cost of a PC is very low, while the initial cost of a Mac is high. This is what many people base their descision of buying a PC on.

But then again, the PC may not have all the features the Mac does. Add on all of the stuff the PC doesn't have (10/100 Ethernet? FireWire? Digital video? Did you know that the Flat Panel iMac's display is *digital*?)

Not to mention support costs. Not just the actual cost of repairs/labor, but *YOUR* downtime. If your PC breaks, you're SOL until it's fixed. You'd have to send it in for repair. Turn around time is how long?

Even *if* your Mac breaks, you can take it to a local Apple Retail Store. Desktop machines are fixed in-store, and laptops have an incredible turn-around time.

There's my rant.
     
Arkham_c
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Jan 24, 2003, 05:07 PM
 
Bottom line: you get what you pay for. If you want cheap, buy cheap. If you want quality and features, a similarly-equipped PC costs as much or more than Apple.
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james_squared
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Jan 24, 2003, 05:09 PM
 
Hello,

Also, think of re-sale value. You pay more for a Mac, but at least it's worth something in a couple of years: PCs can't do that.

James
     
sillyrabbitt
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Jan 24, 2003, 05:17 PM
 
bottomline: apple = premium product, premium price...fine with me. you do get what you pay for!!!

i am a recent switcher and loving it!
ibook,800,30gig,12.1",640mb,10.2.4, Airport
     
SeSawaya
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Jan 24, 2003, 05:31 PM
 
my friend just bought a cheap PC laptop. let me tell you guys, it is CHEAP in every imaginable way,. Fells like a kids toy next to my iBook. Lets not even talk about the crap little trackpad on it!!!

Yah, he saved lots... He regrets it everyday
     
slider
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Jan 24, 2003, 05:43 PM
 
Well, if what matters to you in a computer is price, then a PC will beat out a Mac every-time, but others have already pointed out the long-term costs. You see for me it's ultimately the OS, not the cost of the machine, that is secondary. No, I am not made of money, but I also know what I like, XP, although greatly improved, is no OSX. Funny thing about X too is that with the latest release of X, it actually runs faster on my older iBook than previous versions did. Don't you have a good sized budget as a magazine editor anyways? Cheap is cheap, and if all you care about is running Word and Excel then get the PC, if you actually use your computer for, well everything, the Mac is the only way to go. And god dammit get an iPod too
     
CheesePuff
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Jan 24, 2003, 05:54 PM
 
Oh yes, $999 is so god damn expensive for a laptop with an extreamly bright 1024x768 12.1" LCD, and an 700 MHz G3, which is just fine for Mac OS X. Of course, for just $300 more you get double the video RAM, 100 MHz faster processor, CD-RW and DVD-ROM drive, larger HD, etc.
     
Captain Obvious
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Jan 24, 2003, 06:51 PM
 
So what do you want?

Everyone here will reinforce the fact that Macs are expensive. Its not an opinion its a fact. It does not matter if you compare laptops or desk machines. So the bottom line is that if you are not willing to spend the money then you will not be looking into getting a Mac. There's no special discount to consumers who whine about the cost.

I don't think $1000 for an iBook is all that bad. You know your needs better than anyone here and if you can live with a PC then that's your call. If the additional cost for having a Mac isn't worth it to you then we'll see you around and have a nice life. This should be in the lounge anyway.....
( Last edited by Captain Obvious; Jan 24, 2003 at 06:58 PM. )

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Phat Bastard
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Jan 24, 2003, 07:50 PM
 
I want to take another spin on the "OS X is better than XP" angle.

I am using a Powerbook G4 400 that I bought 2 years ago now, and the thing is as useful and as fast as when I bought it. I was running OS 9 when I bought it, and we all know OS 9 was much faster than OS X before Jaguar, and now I'm running OS X Jaguar. The fact that Apple's incredible new OS is as fast and fully functional now as with the OS that was on the machine 2 years ago is simply incredible.

Find me a PC laptop that isn't completely obsolete to the point of being unusable when you upgrade to the next Microsoft OS in 2 years. That's aside from the fact that OS X is way better than XP, as people have said.

I was a PC person before I bought this Powerbook and I was constantly stuck in the rut of upgrading my desktop system every year, if not every 6 months. With a laptop, you don't have the luxury of being able to upgrade the parts. That's why it's so important to get a laptop that can stand the test of time.

Sure, you're paying slightly more for the Mac, but you're paying for the better OS once you use it, and you're paying for longevity in that OS and in future Mac OS releases.

People need to learn more about the OS you're paying for and look beyond just the hardware specs and price.
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scottiB
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Jan 24, 2003, 08:41 PM
 
bottomline: apple = premium product, premium price...fine with me. you do get what you pay for!!!
Bottom line: this person's a troll.

I seriously doubt that a "magazine editor" and a Mac owner since 1995 would even flinch at spending and extra $200 for a 14" iBook.

Purchasing Windows versions of software would be at least that much.

Run along, sonny, go edit your magazine. I'm sure you have a deadline...or something.
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Steve Bosell
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Jan 24, 2003, 08:50 PM
 
my work computer is a $2500 2ghz ibm t30 laptop, in no way does if feel faster than my 700 mhz iBook. Its battery life sucks, big time, as does its size, it is larger than the t20 (which was slow as hell at 700mhz)! I work from my iBook whenever I can.
     
jesses584
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Jan 24, 2003, 08:55 PM
 
Windows is also known for having many more bugs to fix, and XP is not spared in this statement.

I am running on a pc - still saving $$ for my first mac- and my version of XP didn't mesh well with my previous installation of windows and in the middle of using it it just shuts off. like the screen goes blank. and then i can't even turn it on for like 20 minutes. It is horrible. I have to set microsoft word to auto save once a minute before i will even think about doing my homework on it. I HATE IT!!!!

jess
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ickettpe
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Jan 24, 2003, 10:10 PM
 
I recently bought a 12in ibook 800 for $1250...

When I built a PC about two years ago, it cost me significantly more than $1250, it was of decent specs when I built it, now it sucks (it does run XP, but it isn't that fast, and even 2 year old games can't run at high rez). So now I have my laptop, which is a laptop, for one thing, and is extremely nice and runs OS X beautifully.

As for your $650 PC's (you said that was all included, right?), that is the cost of a nice monitor (including shipping + tax), so stfu.
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ravenfan
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Jan 24, 2003, 11:43 PM
 
When I was looking at laptops, I found that there was no equal to the 12" 800 iBook. For $1300 a comparable PC version does not exist. Virtually none of the PC's anywhere near that price has a Radeon card, and even if it did, it sure doesn't enjoy 32 megs of dedicated video RAM. Most of them are still using shared system RAM.

The only thing that the iBook lacks is DDR RAM for the vid card and system RAM. But honestly, it doesn't affect daily use very much at all.
( Last edited by ravenfan; Jan 24, 2003 at 11:51 PM. )
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Phat Bastard
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Jan 24, 2003, 11:49 PM
 
Can we be a little more civilized here? dc33net has come to us with an honest concern and you have no right to accuse him of being a troll. There is no call for you to question his sincerity in giving us his job description. Just answer his questions--don't be a baby.

Originally posted by scottiB:
Bottom line: this person's a troll.

I seriously doubt that a "magazine editor" and a Mac owner since 1995 would even flinch at spending and extra $200 for a 14" iBook.

Purchasing Windows versions of software would be at least that much.

Run along, sonny, go edit your magazine. I'm sure you have a deadline...or something.
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scottiB
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Jan 25, 2003, 03:13 PM
 
In the four years that I've been on these boards under two names, I've seen these posts come and go. Someone posts a negative aspect of a Mac product, says that they've been a long time Mac user, how it really pains them to switch to the dark side, but whatcanyoudo? We Mac users then trip over ourselves to prove them wrong or misguided or not to leave the one true faith.

The reasoning used is usually one of two things: price or mhz (though it could be ATA, speed, lack of two drive, etc). Those two things are unassailable: Macs are more expensive than Wintels--usually; Macs have less clock-speed.

The true trollishness:
Thanks for pointing out the Laptop Shootout web page. But, in all honesty, that thing is a joke. It's comparing the price of a 12-in. iBook to a number of 14-in. and 15-in. Windows laptops. I mean, why didn't the administrator of that page use the 14-in. iBook? We would then see that the iBook is the most expensive of the group, not the least expensive.
First of all, I've been in meetings with magazine editors, copy editors, photo editors, and none have been so utterly dismissive and, frankly, childish, as to label something as a "joke" when provided with valid information. There's plenty in that link to illustrate that the iBook is a good value--at least on par with Wintel books--more so if you've owned a Mac since 1995.

I'm sorry you're offended by my reply, but I'm more offended by his callous tone and ungraciousness. Instead of asking for solutions and advice (if you look there are no questions), he just bitches.

Examples of Windows users being gracious and inquisitive:

http://forums.macnn.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=66

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...hreadid=142096

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...hreadid=141910

I say again: The Emperor has no clothes. This guy's a troll.
( Last edited by scottiB; Jan 25, 2003 at 03:20 PM. )
I am stupidest when I try to be funny.
     
Chimpmaster
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Jan 25, 2003, 05:41 PM
 
The 14" ibook is comparable with pc laptops - the good ones.

Look at a toshiba, sony or fujitsu - they are probably the best.

Even the dells have a pretty crumby form factor.

Vaio and Apple are a fair comparison. ANd remember that ibooks have 802.11b wireless capabilities out of the box (you just need to add an $80 Aiport card) - most pc latops dont, except for the higher end models.

Vaio are charging $3999 AUS (about $2200 US) for their entry level wireless notebook. Its got a P3 1.2Ghz cpu, 256mb ram and a combo drive and a 14" tft. display.

I can configure an apple ibook - g3 800mhz, 256mb ram and an airport card for $3354 AUS (about $300 US less than the vaio). It has a better video card too, is thinner, and is a much sexier machine overall.

Just goes to show that apple is still (and has been for 3 years) leading the wireless front.
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hart
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Mar 18, 2004, 09:31 AM
 
hauling this old thread up to the top as I need assistance here.

My mother is at the point at which she needs to buy a new computer. She is a totally non-technical Windows user. Five years of computer usage and she can't figure out how to save stuff and then find it again. I've been trying with no success to convince her that the Mac OS will HELP her with that problem.

She needs a computer to access the internet, send email and hopefully look at pics of the grandkids that I send her. She is retired and plans to spend a fair amount of time travelling and several months at a summer place so I think a laptop is the right choice for her, especially as her processor needs are somewhat low.

Another consideration for her is display size as she has old eyes altho how she works with this feeble 17" Gateway CRT I don't know.

Unfortunately, she is under the impression that you get lots more for your money with a Dell laptop than with an ibook so I need some recent comparison info of lowish end Dells and 14" ibooks.

I can't quite get her to get the point about the OS, as she can't figure out her own PC and then changing to use my Macs just confuses her.

Please, help to promote purchase of ibook by non-technical PC user greatly appreciated!
     
mbryda
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Mar 18, 2004, 09:56 AM
 
Originally posted by hart:
Unfortunately, she is under the impression that you get lots more for your money with a Dell laptop than with an ibook so I need some recent comparison info of lowish end Dells and 14" ibooks.


About the only thing you get with a Dell is a lot of headaches. Their PC's are generally garbage and not worth the box they come in (as a PC tech of many years, I'm quite qualified to make that statement).

Let's talk low end Dell here for a second:

Processor: Usually have a De-Celeron processor. From a performance standpoint, pure garbage. They were getting their butts handed to them by even AMD's Duron and by the G3. Definitely not a quality solution by any stretch. Truly very low end.

RAM: Usually 128MB and shared. So, if you give your video card 32MB, Windows only gets 96MB of RAM to run. Combine that with very sucky Intel Extreme (hardly Extreme) graphics and you have a very slow machine. Compare that to Apple, who gives you DEDICATED video RAM.

Quality: Dell has no quality. Period. I don't care what people say - their low end laptops (and most desktops) have no quality. It WILL fall apart in 2 years. No if, ands, or buts, it will fall apart.

Wireless: Low end Dell has nothing built in - you need a PCMCIA or USB wireless adapter. With the iBook, just add the $80 Airport(Extreme) card and you have an elegant solution that's all internal.

Battery Life: Despite using a De-Celeron-M or a Peee4-M, Wintel laptops get abysmal battery life. Neither of these CPU's was really meant for laptop use (despite Intel's marketing) and they use a lot of power. She'd be lucky to get 2 hours on a charge. iBooks generally go 3-6 hours before a recharge.

About the only thing that Dell has is good ad campaigns - the Pothead Dude and Idiotic Interns are everywhere, brainwashing people into thinking Dell is a good PC.

Please, help to promote purchase of ibook by non-technical PC user greatly appreciated!
Point out the spyware/virus thing. Show her the MS license where it lets them get into your computer anytime. Let her borrow a Mac for a week or 2 to try out and see how better it is. Tell her if she buys a PC she only can call you 1x per month for support and that you will help her all the time with a Mac.

Good luck - if she must get a PC - look elsewhere besides Dell.
     
scottiB
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Mar 18, 2004, 11:22 AM
 
Following-up on mbryda's good comments:

I had a similar task with my 70 year-old father. He had been a Mac user for many years, but after his 6100 became long-in-the-tooth, he converted to Windows exclusively.

When he wanted to purchase a new computer for primarily digital photos and some DV, I applied a full-court press for buying a Mac.

With my iBook, I presented the common-sense approach to OS X's interface and file system, the ease of managing images in iPhoto, etc. What really impressed him was the near-universal drag and drop ability of the OS and that deleting a program was as simple as dragging to the trash. After some time, he purchased a refurbished PowerMac 933, and his Dell has become more seldomly used.

Especially with Panther, Mac OS X had become a great experience with novice computer users (the lack of perplexing error messages, uniformity and approachability of the OS, etc.)

Considerations and tips:
  • Even with Panther's side panel and the dock, my father likes to drop stuff to his desktop; create aliases on the desktop to Pictures, Documents, etc., so things don't become too cluttered.
  • As much as I like column view, my father gets rather confused by it--he much rather click through windows OS 9-like. Perhaps your mother would be the same.
  • When traveling, what would her ISP be (AOL?). If so, I believe the AOL experience on the Mac is less than Windows, but I've never used AOL, so I'm unsure.
  • Present her with Consumer Reports stats on quality and support, showing Apple as number one.
  • As incentive and to ease your mind, say that if she buys a Mac, you can offer her support. Odds are you may be providing her support if she buys a Windows laptop, anyway. This will make both of yours lives easier.
  • As well, offer to buy her AppleCare. Not so much for hardware support, but AppleCare provides free software support for OSX, Mail, and all the iApps. If you aren't available, Apple tech can help her. My father's done this on occasion, and he finds them knowledgeable and helpful.

A 14" iBook/933 would be a great solution for her. The 1024x768 screen at that size is highly readable, and she has the option of 800x600 (though a bit fuzzier).

Finally, there's a strong probability that, with her needs, this laptop will be useable for at least 4 years (my uncle has the same needs and still uses a Bondi iMac). While WinTel laptops may be cheaper by $300 or so. An iBook would be an extra twenty cents a day over four years.

Good luck.
     
Captain Obvious
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Mar 18, 2004, 06:03 PM
 
Originally posted by hart:

She needs a computer to access the internet, send email and hopefully look at pics of the grandkids that I send her. She is retired and plans to spend a fair amount of time travelling and several months at a summer place so I think a laptop is the right choice for her, especially as her processor needs are somewhat low.


Unfortunately, she is under the impression that you get lots more for your money with a Dell laptop than with an ibook so I need some recent comparison info of lowish end Dells and 14" ibooks.
Let her use your Mac for a couple days. If she likes it then help her buy a 12" G3 iBook. They are out there to be found. Don't get a 14" iBook since money is an issue they are not worth the money since you gain nothing in specs. If her eyes are bad turn the resolution on the 12" to 600x 800

Problem solved.

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discotronic
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Mar 18, 2004, 06:17 PM
 
Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
Let her use your Mac for a couple days. If she likes it then help her buy a 12" G3 iBook.
Problem solved.
I second that. Apple still has new 900 G3's for $899 and refurb G4 800's for $949 in the Special Deals section on the site. Other sites have deals that include extra ram and Airport.

I started my mom out with a Wintel laptop and it did nothing but gather dust. I then picked up a 3400c and she used it until it bit the big one. She wanted another Mac so I gave her my iBook 700. I think she gets more use out of it than I did. I guarantee that she will be using it for another 5 years and it will still be usable for her needs.
     
Graymalkin
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Mar 19, 2004, 06:32 AM
 
Another option besides running the screen at a low resolution is to turn up the display contrast in the Accessibility preferences. You can also maybe teach her how to use the Zoom functionality which can be very useful for people who have some trouble seeing small-ish screens. I really wish I'd been able to get my grandparents to buy a Mac instead of the HP they bought.

It was an interesting discussion, my grandmother decided Macs sucked because she didn't know how to use them. The fact she doesn't know how to do anything on a Windows PC didn't sink in too deeply. With the Spoken Interface preview maybe a revision of Panther or 10.4 might have a more user friendly Accessibility preference pane. As it is you should let her play around with your Mac with the accessibility features turned on.
     
sniffer
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Mar 19, 2004, 08:04 AM
 
Originally posted by Graymalkin:
[snip..] because she didn't know how to use them.
Yes, that's the biggest complaint I hear these days. It's not a bad situation to be honest.

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hart
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Mar 20, 2004, 12:04 PM
 
"my grandmother decided Macs sucked because she didn't know how to use them. The fact she doesn't know how to do anything on a Windows PC didn't sink in too deeply."

that's the thing with my mother too. she doesn't like the track pad for example and wouldn't realize you can use a mouse unless she actually asks me.

One thing that impressed her was the idea that she could take her entire CD collection with her on the ibook, but then wanted to know how she could listen in the car. well, ipod obviously, but barring that, won't those irock things work from the ibook too? Could you get it to work with the lid closed I wonder.

The dell comparison that I did came out with the Dell nearest possible configuration as being $200 cheaper but with no iLife type apps included and a few other absences.

The longevity seems to be a major consideration in the TCO argument. I'm actually still using my key lime ibook running 10.3 with no problem for my travel equipment. I think I'll fire that up and let her use it.
     
ghporter
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Mar 20, 2004, 12:38 PM
 
I have to weigh in on this. I have been a PC user since 1985, not because I didn't think Macs were cool (the first Mac I saw up close in 1988 blew me away, but I wasn't making enough money to even qualify for a loan to buy one), but because of Apple's pricing structure. I have spent the last several years trying to learn as much as possible about Macs because, as a Computer Scientist, I can't afford to be chauvinistic.

Now cut to last fall. My wife needed a laptop for school. The faculty at her particular school have become over-enamored with "technology aiding the learning environment." That means that they throw in every bell, whistle and watzit they can, but particularly it means that their class notes, assignments and everything else are posted on a school VPN. She needed a powerful, very capable computer to deal with these products (have you ever seen a PowerPoint presentation that had EVERY SINGLE WORD rendered with a drop shadow? TOTALLY UNREADABLE!-and requiring much modification to make it educationally useful), and to be able to carry the thing around for field work in all sorts of environments. In short, she needed an ultraportable, ultralightweight laptop.

There are ABSOLUTELY NO Windows laptops in the same performance and capability catagory as the iBook that are anywhere near the iBook's price range. I agree that Dell's low-end laptops are pretty low, but they are aiming at a market that will buy a new laptop to replace their current one in a year or two-it sure ain't their corporate plan to turn out junk, but they build for the markets that buy their products.

I have an "obsolete" Inspiron 8200 desktop replacement laptop, which is solid, reliable, and a pleasure to work with. It was fairly expensive, and it's a pain to travel with (about 9 pounds with charger and case), so it was certainly not the computer my wife needed. I have searched and searched, and the iBook is head and shoulders above any lightweight PC laptop, particularly since there are darn few PC laptops that are anywhere near the size and weight of the iBook.

Finally, jesses584 should have "bitten the bullet" and done a complete wipe of his/her hard drive before trying to install XP. You have to dig to find it, but even Microsoft prefers "clean" installations of XP over "upgrade" installations. Most modern OSs are like this whether or not their publishers warn you about it. There are ways to do a clean Windows install that don't lose all your documents and old programs-provided free with the last few versions of Windows. The catch is that these things take a while, so a lot of people just blow them off and complain about how much of a pain XP is. WRONG. It's just nowhere near as smooth to use as OS X. On the other hand, OS X is NOT any more intuitive than any other OS. It isn't even a logical progression from OS 9. It is, however, much better integrated than anything else, and thus much nicer for any user.

Bottom line: you cannot beat the value of an iBook for what it is-a very capable, ultraportable laptop that just happens to be beautiful and easy to use. If you want cheap, buy cheap, but don't whine about how you're getting screwed by a PC manufacturer; you asked for that privilege and paid good money for it.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Forte
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Mar 20, 2004, 01:38 PM
 
On the other hand, OS X is NOT any more intuitive than any other OS. It isn't even a logical progression from OS 9. It is, however, much better integrated than anything else, and thus much nicer for any user.
I'd have to disagree, there. I just switched to OS X from Windows XP, and it took me around two days to learn how everything worked. It took me around two months to do the same with XP, when I moved from Windows 98. ;P
(IOW, I've found OS X to be the most intuitive OS I've ever used, and I've been using computers since I was 5)
     
sniffer
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Mar 20, 2004, 05:25 PM
 
Originally posted by Forte:
I'd have to disagree, there. I just switched to OS X from Windows XP, and it took me around two days to learn how everything worked. It took me around two months to do the same with XP, when I moved from Windows 98. ;P
(IOW, I've found OS X to be the most intuitive OS I've ever used, and I've been using computers since I was 5)
I think I can agree on that. Macs are in general more intuitive than Windows based machines. I have always been interested in computers, so for me I don't spot these things so easily. But my ex girlfriend which certainly didn't know anything about either systems had a faster progress learning the old Mac OS than Windows OS while using both systems the same time.

Sniffer gone old-school sig
     
Forte
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Mar 20, 2004, 08:04 PM
 
Originally posted by sniffer:
I have always been interested in computers, so for me I don't spot these things so easily.
So have I, been using them all my life. But for some reason, I do tend to notice when things are more intuitive to use. I guess it comes from doing much 'tech-support' for users who aren't so accustomed to computers. ^^;
     
mbryda
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Mar 20, 2004, 08:55 PM
 
Originally posted by GHPorter:
I agree that Dell's low-end laptops are pretty low, but they are aiming at a market that will buy a new laptop to replace their current one in a year or two-it sure ain't their corporate plan to turn out junk, but they build for the markets that buy their products.
As someone who has come up through the ranks and worked as a PC tech throughout college and into the work life, I can tell you that Dell does produce junk. I wouldn't wish one on my worst enemy. Every time I sit down at one, it's amazing how much slower it is than any other computer of similar specs.

Part of their corporate motto is to be the lowest cost provider. Unfortunately, the low cost provider usually produces junk. And, they are not the low cost provider. There are many other companies that will produce a much better computer at aobut the same price point.

In short, buy any PC other than a Dell. For Windows laptops, IBM is the best. Not cheap, but the best. Toshiba and Fujitsu also make great Windows notebooks.
     
Forte
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Mar 20, 2004, 09:15 PM
 
Originally posted by mbryda:
For Windows laptops, IBM is the best. Not cheap, but the best. Toshiba and Fujitsu also make great Windows notebooks.
Samsung have also made some good Windows laptops of late. I would wholeheartedly recommend them if you're in the market for a Windows-based portable, except they'll be implementing the first TCPA-compliant BIOSes in their machines fairly soon. :/
     
ghporter
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Mar 20, 2004, 11:35 PM
 
Originally posted by Forte:
I'd have to disagree, there. I just switched to OS X from Windows XP, and it took me around two days to learn how everything worked. It took me around two months to do the same with XP, when I moved from Windows 98. ;P
(IOW, I've found OS X to be the most intuitive OS I've ever used, and I've been using computers since I was 5)
This is all a matter of what you're used to. John Dvorak once pointed out that there is nothing intuitive about the nuts and bolts of ANY operating system; humans are not built with computing in mind. I'm not knocking OS X at all. I find it simpler, easier to manage, and more robust than any other OS I've used. But being superior in integration and smoother in use is not "more intuitive."

It takes a significant amount of training to use a graphical user interface. That this training is simple, and that it comes easy to most of us is not the point. I worked for an organization not too long ago where there were formalized classes (which actually awarded college credit!) in "basic computer operation." These classes spent a week explaining what a disk drive was, how the keyboard interacted with the CPU, how to use the mouse, and so on. These classes were for real...and there were people who had a really hard time with them.

Given that real enthusiasts, whether technically or esthetically oriented, are going to take the time to become fluent in the use of their computers, what you've encountered is the smoothness and integration of OS X, not its "intuitiveness." This may be a conceptual difference, but I think it's important.

Friday evening I saw an interview with Susan Kare, the designer of the original Mac's primary icons-from the "Happy Mac" to the bomb, as well as the original system fonts. Her personal impression of what an "undo" icon should be is "a claw hammer" pulling out a nail ("The Screen Savers" show from March 19). Beyond very simple, basic stuff such as email (envelope with stamp) or "save to disk" (picture of a floppy disk), that is the most "intuitive" icon I can imagine. THIS is what we must think of as intuitive, and it is only at the most superficial layer of the user interface. Operating systems are extremely complex machines, but we only see the surface. Of course the surface layer of OS X's user interface is exceptionally good, but it builds on things that are part of our culture and experience (there is little "intuitive" in an "eject button, for example). It makes this OS much easier for a person living in the early 21st century to use, but what would a person in 1980, who had never seen a Mac, be able to do with OS X without a lot of instruction?

Ok, I'm done being off topic on this.

Oh, and I still can't subscribe to the idea that Dell builds crap. Dell has over half of the PC market, so when somebody comes into a shop with a broken computer, you're going to see a disproportionate number of them with Dells. You don't get to and stay at the top of such a cut-throat business by building crap. On the other hand, I've never heard ANYTHING good about the durability of Compaqs, the software integration of HP laptops (when they were different from Compaq), or that Sony goes beyone knowing how to design pretty boxes. Industrially, I see Gateway computers failing left and right (one shipment I saw of a dozen Gateways had FIVE DOAs), while Dell has bent over backwards to provide reliable machines. I once ordered a Latitude C600 for an office and had it arrive within a week. There wasn't a CD-ROM in the box so I called Customer Service. Since they couldn't see where there wasn't supposed to be a CD-ROM with this computer, they Fed-Ex'd one to me overnight. That was two years ago, and the computer is still going strong. And you can't blame the manufacturer for the way a user abuses a computer, any more than you can blame Ford for what a drunk driver does.

Anyway, this whole thread has drifted WAY off the original subject. I stand by what I said earlier-you CANNOT beat an iBook's value, even if it looks expensive. Ok, now I'll shut up.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
sniffer
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Mar 21, 2004, 07:50 AM
 
Originally posted by GHPorter:
This is all a matter of what you're used to. John Dvorak once pointed out that there is nothing intuitive about the nuts and bolts of ANY operating system; humans are not built with computing in mind. I'm not knocking OS X at all. I find it simpler, easier to manage, and more robust than any other OS I've used. But being superior in integration and smoother in use is not "more intuitive."
Nice input there, but I don't follow you. If a system takes lesser time to learn - like in learning without being depended on a manual or someone teaching you. The system that you learn and understand fastest is "more intuitive" by my dictonary. It could be that I don't fully understand the correct translation of the word but that's my idea of what it means.
I do agree OS systems aren't very intuitive to start with, but in comparison one OS can be more intuitive than others. Perhaps I am wrong but.
( Last edited by sniffer; Mar 21, 2004 at 07:55 AM. )

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ghporter
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Mar 21, 2004, 01:02 PM
 
Originally posted by sniffer:
Nice input there, but I don't follow you. If a system takes lesser time to learn - like in learning without being depended on a manual or someone teaching you. The system that you learn and understand fastest is "more intuitive" by my dictonary. It could be that I don't fully understand the correct translation of the word but that's my idea of what it means.
I do agree OS systems aren't very intuitive to start with, but in comparison one OS can be more intuitive than others. Perhaps I am wrong but.
From the Random House Dictionary, copyright 1980:
"intuition: 1. direct perception of truth or fact, independent of any reasoning process."

There is significant reasoning behind every action a computer user takes. "Intuitive" is a marketing word in the computer world. In reality "simple to understand" and "easy to use" are what they are talking about. This is a conceptual distinction, and since so many of us have been conditioned by marketing and advertising practically from birth, it's hard to see the difference. It really means that such an easy to use, simple to understand interface (NOT the technical underpinnings) draws on socially accepted norms (such as in many places the cold water handle is on the right and the hot handle is on the left-a norm and a convention, but not a standard) to provide a mental shortcut for the user, obviating the need for formalized training, either provided by a manual or an instructor.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
sniffer
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Mar 21, 2004, 08:10 PM
 
Thanks for the explanation. I see your argument much better now. Always nice to learn something new.

Sniffer gone old-school sig
     
simty
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Mar 22, 2004, 06:40 AM
 
I ended up buying an iBook 900 and right after that my wife was given a Toshiba Laptop by her new school. (she's an ITC teacher) 10 months on the Toshiba is 75% the computer it was and the iBook is at least 125% the computer it was because of 10.3.

I also worked out that the Toshiba has cost $142 in security software and security admin costs which the iBook has not incurred. This extra cost is also growing month by month. Next year looks like it will be $200 or more...
     
simty
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Mar 22, 2004, 06:55 AM
 
How strange is life no sooner had I posted my last post when my wife calls me to say she's giving her Toshiba laptop back to the school because she doesn't use it over the iBook and other teachers could make better use of it. So there you go a FREE XP laptop and it still didn't win out over an iBook and that's in a school that is 100% PC apart from the art department.
     
jpellino
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Mar 22, 2004, 08:01 AM
 
1. iBooks are all G4 now.
2. the 14" ibook has the same resolution (1024) as the 12" - after three years in the 12" I can tell you there's no problem working day to day, and you always have an external monitor available if the 12" dot pitch is too small (and there are 3rd party hacks to raise the external screen resolution)
3. so with an airport card, it's $1199 for 12' 800MHz G4 iBook Combo drive
It's still hard to feature and price match with a brand name box
     
sodamnregistered2
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Mar 22, 2004, 11:31 AM
 
I have a new Al Powerbook 1GHz combodrive. Paid $2000. 1 Year warranty.

I also just got a $1700 Dell 5150 with a 1600x1200 LCD, 3GHz HyperThreading P4, and a 60GB 7200rpm drive. 3 year warranty.

Powerbooks are nice, but, yes, PC can give you excellent value.
MacBook Pro C2D 2.16GHz 2GB 120GB OSX 10.4.9, Boot Camp 1.2, Vista Home Premium
mac mini 1.42, 60GB 7200rpm, 1GB (sold), dual 2GHz/G5 (sold), Powerbook 15" 1GHz (sold)
dual G4 800MHz (sold), dual G4 450MHz (sold), G4 450MHz (sold), Powerbook Pismo G3 500MHz (sold)
PowerMac 9500 132MHz 601, dual 180MHz 604e, Newer G3 400MHz (in closet)
Powermac 7100 80MHz (sold), Powermac 7100 66MHz (sold)
     
jkbatson
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Mar 22, 2004, 12:45 PM
 
I have a couple of comments regarding this post.

First, I'm surprised that no-one has pointed out that the iBook has had a G4 in it since October. The G3 iBooks are discounted to $699 for the 12 inch model and $899 for the 14" iBook. If you really want to do a head to head comparison, the inexpensive WinTel laptops do not perform as well as the iBook G3 at a similar price.

In terms of his/her friends desktop, I believe that many of us would agree that Apple would probably benefit from having a headless low cost computer that can compete on a price performance basis with the lower cost PC's while maintaining the user experience. The fact is, that many people will purchase a new computer without replacing the monitor and that this is a valid cost savings. I know many people have requested that Apple do this and I believe that it is a mistake on their part not to have a product in this space.

Having said that, however, the eMac is certainly cost competitive with a $650 Wintel PC plus a monitor, if one was planning to replace the monitor anyway.
     
Applefreak01
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Mar 22, 2004, 02:23 PM
 
My first laptop was a clamshell iBook 300MHz. I took it everywhere with me. I had an Airport card and base station back when they first came out and thought that was so cool.

Then I sold my iBook to pay for a HP Desktop for college. This is now my gaming rig as I've replaced everything in it but the memory (and I'll get new memory soon).

Then I bought a HP Pavilion laptop using it as a workstation at work and my non gaming computer at home. It had an AMD Althon XP 2100+ and was an ok laptop but it reminded me of my first iBook and how much fun I had using it...so I gave my HP laptop to my younger brother when he went to college and bought myself a 900MHz 12.1" G3 iBook. I love this laptop. I added an extra 512MB of RAM for $91 and an Airport card for $91 also. In the end the iBook cost me $1681 compared to my HP laptop of $1062 orginally but added a wireless card and more RAM it came out around $1500 and my HP desktop orginally $1799 but after all the upgrades it's closer to $3000 now.

In terms of TCO (Total Cost of Ownership) the iBook wins because it will last a good 5 years at it's speed unlike your typical PC laptop/desktop which are partically out of date the second you buy them. Plus Mac OS X is way cheaper to support than Windows XP. I don't know how many times I lost vauable work time on my HP desktop and laptop because something was wrong with Windows XP and I would have to work on it for hours to fix the thing or just reinstall. So far I've had my iBook for about a year and not a single crash or virus. On my HP desktop that's a completely different story. I've lost track on the number of crashes and have had a few viruses. In fact this past two months my CD-RW and DVD drives on my HP desktop weren't working so I reinstalled Win XP and nothing. Then I downgraded to Win 2000 Pro and still nothing so I kept 2000 Pro and had no CD drives. Then this last week I wiped my hard drives clean again and installed XP Pro and magically my CD-RW and DVD drives work now.

In short get the iBook it works a lot better than most Windows based PC's with cheap parts but then again you get what you pay for.
( Last edited by Applefreak01; Mar 22, 2004 at 02:29 PM. )
[Riding a circus elephant]
Peter: Look Lois, the two smybols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a fat white guy who is threatened by change. - Family Guy
     
rjc3
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Mar 22, 2004, 11:44 PM
 
okay, from the march 2004 dell catalog, page 28:

Dell Inspiron 15"
2.8 P4
256 SDRAM
30gb HD
14.1"
ATI Mobility Raedon 7500 32MB
8x DVD-Rom
modem/NIC
1.75" thick
Starts at 7.22 lbs
2 usb 2.0
1 firewire 400
up to 4 hours (not likely)
1 year warranty
$1049

From store.apple.com:
14" iBook
933MHz PowerPC G4
256K L2 cache @ 933MHz
14-inch TFT Display
10/100 ethernet
56k modem
2 usb 2.0 ports
1 firewire
256MB DDR266 SDRAM
40GB Ultra ATA drive
Combo Drive
ATI Mobility Radeon 9200
32MB DDR video memory
1.3" thick
5.9 lbs
up to 6 hours battery
$1299

The iBook is thinner, lighter, has a better video card, a larger HD, a cd burner/dvd player, and comes with a better OS, in adition to the awesome iLife suite, for only $150 more.
And it has a real G4 inside, not some neutered mobile pentium 4.

nuff said.
     
besson3c
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Mar 23, 2004, 01:37 AM
 
Originally posted by rjc3:
okay, from the march 2004 dell catalog, page 28:

Dell Inspiron 15"
2.8 P4
256 SDRAM
30gb HD
14.1"
ATI Mobility Raedon 7500 32MB
8x DVD-Rom
modem/NIC
1.75" thick
Starts at 7.22 lbs
2 usb 2.0
1 firewire 400
up to 4 hours (not likely)
1 year warranty
$1049

From store.apple.com:
14" iBook
933MHz PowerPC G4
256K L2 cache @ 933MHz
14-inch TFT Display
10/100 ethernet
56k modem
2 usb 2.0 ports
1 firewire
256MB DDR266 SDRAM
40GB Ultra ATA drive
Combo Drive
ATI Mobility Radeon 9200
32MB DDR video memory
1.3" thick
5.9 lbs
up to 6 hours battery
$1299

The iBook is thinner, lighter, has a better video card, a larger HD, a cd burner/dvd player, and comes with a better OS, in adition to the awesome iLife suite, for only $150 more.
And it has a real G4 inside, not some neutered mobile pentium 4.

nuff said.
And you don't have to factor in the cost of Norton Antivirus.
     
discotronic
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Mar 23, 2004, 01:58 AM
 
Originally posted by besson3c:
And you don't have to factor in the cost of Norton Antivirus.
There are free antivirus and firewall programs available for Windows. ZoneAlarm is a decent free firewall and AVG is a decent antivirus program. That makes it hard to add that as a additional cost when comparing a PC and Mac.

At least with OSX, I don't have to worry about a virus. For now at least.
     
 
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