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Shall we play a game? (Page 3)
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subego
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Nov 6, 2012, 10:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Well, many of Shaddim's arguments have been based around beliefs of what the "real Romney" is like based on his record in Mass, so I'm making assumptions that the real or candidate Romney wouldn't change this stuff, because his party wouldn't have it.

Moreover, Obama has said that he would have liked to have closed Gitmo but couldn't get this passed. AFAIK Democrats have been consistently against SOPA and PIPA, and my perception is that the Left is generally more pot-friendly too. The other stuff I don't know about.
Democrats are generally against all the things I listed. That's what made it such a kidney-shot when Obama turned out to be for them all.
     
besson3c
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Nov 6, 2012, 10:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post

Democrats are generally against all the things I listed. That's what made it such a kidney-shot when Obama turned out to be for them all.
But he isn't, which is what I just said, he just couldn't get this stuff through the house. You can make the argument that he didn't fight hard enough, but still, you also can't look at this in a vacuum in a world where congress doesn't exist either, right?
     
subego
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Nov 6, 2012, 11:01 PM
 
I'm talking about those things you said you don't know about, the fact he did support SOPA and PIPA, and the fact he does bust pot dispensaries even though he promised not to.

IOW, everything on my list except for Guantanamo.

You're kinda missing the forest for the tree.
     
Shaddim
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Nov 7, 2012, 12:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I'm not a fan of any of that stuff, it is a black mark on Obama, sure, but which of those things would you have anticipated Romney reversing?
Again, this isn't about Romney, it's about how much worse can Obama get in that area.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Shaddim
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Nov 7, 2012, 12:45 AM
 
When you elect a Democrat, you expect they'll be more watchful of civil liberties, that's the main benefit of voting for one. That's why I vote almost all Blue on a local and state level. But, if they're going to be just as bad or worse than Repubs, then what's the point?
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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subego
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Nov 7, 2012, 01:04 AM
 
My cynical side is beginning to think that was to balance out the "law and order" focus of the Republicans.

Since it started coming from Obama, we have crickets.
     
subego
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Nov 7, 2012, 01:07 AM
 
The irony is, he's way more likely to pick Supreme Court justices who will overturn his own shit.
     
besson3c
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Nov 7, 2012, 01:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
When you elect a Democrat, you expect they'll be more watchful of civil liberties, that's the main benefit of voting for one. That's why I vote almost all Blue on a local and state level. But, if they're going to be just as bad or worse than Repubs, then what's the point?
I see your arguments. Unfortunately, I would say the answer is because they would still be better off than many Republicans, especially those with backwards social conservative viewpoints, but that is a shitty and unsatisfying answer.

I would say this... If you were to sit down with Obama I'm sure he'd be in support of all the same things you are on these issues. At least, he has never said anything that would have made me feel on the contrary. The problem is, he has been trying to strategize what sorts of changes he can get through the house while being careful about what battles to wage. This has been infuriatingly frustrating to me because the Republicans don't seem to recognize where compromise was made as some sort of concession, they just stick to their guns with the issues they feel compelled to. Politics doesn't seem to be about "I scratch your back, you scratch mine", it is fighting tooth and nail for control over the back scratcher. Obama, I feel, has been pretty lousy about fighting for the back scratcher because doesn't want to be labeled as a divider and polarizer since he promised he would "bring everybody together".

As I'm processing these election results, I'm thinking that we aren't really all that polarized culturally, it just feels that way.

It feels that way because of the way campaigns are run in their hyper-focus on the swing states, and it feels that way because modernity is slowly beating out whatever the opposite of this would be called, but those seeing these older ways of thinking slip away on the social issues they care about are very vocal about fighting for this.

To give you some examples, we are slowly seeing states where gay marriage and pot use is allowed expand. You have politicians on the right compensating by moving even farther to the right to appeal to the sorts of voters that feel compelled to these older ways of thinking on these and other social issues. What Todd Akin said about rape would have probably made the hairs on the backs of our necks stand up even decades ago.

I'm starting to believe that while our intense interest on economic issues has been the dominant issue, there is still a huge population of citizenry deeply invested in social conservative issues, and I tend to underestimate the size and influence of this population. As we see states that used to be Republican come into play, what seems to be in common with these states is that they have large urban areas, and the influences of these areas seem to be creeping. Large urban areas have almost always been consistently Democrat in recent years.

So, my point after all of this rambling about unrelated stuff...

Obama doesn't have to "bring us together" by compromising, he just needs to recognize that we are changing and evolving as a nation, and that there are two kinds of polarization: ideological polarization and cultural polarization. The ideological polarization will never go away, but as nation as far as "bringing us together" we aren't divided by these wonky ideological differences in economic policy, we are divided culturally and how we see the world. The people on the other side culturally, the same people that would be against many of these security-related issues, are a byproduct of this change and will soon die off. There is a strong religious and moral component to several of these issues. I think Obama should ignore them, and hopefully he will especially as the lame duck.

This probably doesn't make much sense, but there you go...
     
P
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Nov 7, 2012, 02:46 AM
 
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
Shaddim
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Nov 7, 2012, 03:16 AM
 
Given the state of congress, the fact the Repubs maintained an overwhelming majority, if he doesn't learn how to compromise and be bipartisan, he's not going to get a damned thing done. Maybe the US likes a gridlocked government, I know that I prefer it that way.


Oh, and legal recreational pot use? That won't last long, wait until the courts get hold of it.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Cold Warrior
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Nov 7, 2012, 03:41 AM
 
I'm a stratfor reader and Friedman has an article that discusses how gridlock is the by-design state of US government.
http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/us-presidential-elections-perspective

And another from today I haven't read yet.


Separately, I'm about three pages late on the vitriol. Page 1's personal attacks aren't welcome.
     
Shaddim
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Nov 7, 2012, 03:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cold Warrior View Post
I'm a stratfor reader and Friedman has an article that discusses how gridlock is the by-design state of US government.
http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/us-presidential-elections-perspective
And another from today I haven't read yet.
Separately, I'm about three pages late on the vitriol. Page 1's personal attacks aren't welcome.
Wouldn't have been any at all, we were all at peace, then mckenna started his usual trolling.

Tell us again that you're a Democrat. We all love that story.
I've gotten tired of it, so I just unload both barrels on him now.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Wiskedjak
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Nov 7, 2012, 04:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Given the state of congress, the fact the Repubs maintained an overwhelming majority, if he doesn't learn how to compromise and be bipartisan, he's not going to get a damned thing done.
Mitch McConnell's top political priority (to deny Obama a second term), suggests that Congress *also* needs to learn how to compromise rather than score political points. In fact, even Fox's anchor last night called out this statement as an example of the kinds of things that need to change.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Nov 7, 2012, 05:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
When you elect a Democrat, you expect they'll be more watchful of civil liberties, that's the main benefit of voting for one. That's why I vote almost all Blue on a local and state level. But, if they're going to be just as bad or worse than Repubs, then what's the point?

Originally Posted by subego View Post
My cynical side is beginning to think that was to balance out the "law and order" focus of the Republicans.
Since it started coming from Obama, we have crickets.
I don't know if it's strategic, but it does seem to cut one of the republican usual talking points right off at the knees – being weak on security. In a post 9/11 America, that takes away a big talking point.


Originally Posted by subego View Post
The irony is, he's way more likely to pick Supreme Court justices who will overturn his own shit.
...and thank **** for that.

(Silver lining?)


Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Mitch McConnell's top political priority (to deny Obama a second term), suggests that Congress *also* needs to learn how to compromise rather than score political points. In fact, even Fox's anchor last night called out this statement as an example of the kinds of things that need to change.
I heard McConnell came out saying his Obama's victory wasn't a mandate for his policies. I won't proclaim such things but I'd love to know what his opinion was in '04 when Bush made the claim while winning by one whole state.
     
raleur
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Nov 7, 2012, 07:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cold Warrior View Post
I'm a stratfor reader and Friedman has an article that discusses how gridlock is the by-design state of US government.
http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/us-presidential-elections-perspective
This is correct. We have entire essays written by the framers of the Constitution that explain how the government was designed to be inefficient. They reasoned that such a system would first, make it difficult for a faction to rise to tyranny, and second, force competing factions to compromise. There are plenty of other reasons, mostly related to notions of equal representation, and a few nods to the need for some kind of efficiency- but even those are carefully held in check (at least, so they thought...).
     
lpkmckenna
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Nov 7, 2012, 02:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Wouldn't have been any at all, we were all at peace, then mckenna started his usual trolling.
I've gotten tired of it, so I just unload both barrels on him now.
You know how to load and fire, but you skipped the day they taught aiming.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Nov 7, 2012, 03:12 PM
 
Can you boys just drop that shit, please?

There's enough substance to be discussed without you two stepping on each other's dicks all the time.

It's annoying.
     
besson3c
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Nov 7, 2012, 05:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Given the state of congress, the fact the Repubs maintained an overwhelming majority, if he doesn't learn how to compromise and be bipartisan, he's not going to get a damned thing done. Maybe the US likes a gridlocked government, I know that I prefer it that way.
Oh, and legal recreational pot use? That won't last long, wait until the courts get hold of it.
How do you propose Obama be bipartisan?

As far as the Republican overwhelming majority in congress, picking up 50 seats in a single election is probably not practical. The Democrats picked up 8 or so.
     
Shaddim
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Nov 7, 2012, 07:27 PM
 
.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Cold Warrior
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Nov 7, 2012, 07:28 PM
 
Infractioned.
     
Shaddim
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Nov 7, 2012, 07:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Can you boys just drop that shit, please?
There's enough substance to be discussed without you two stepping on each other's dicks all the time.
It's annoying.
I'm trying. I've agreed to just report him when he starts trolling. I'll let the forum justice system take care of him.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
screener
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Nov 8, 2012, 12:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
You know how to load and fire, but you skipped the day they taught aiming.
C'mon, that was funny.
Lighten up.
     
raleur
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Nov 8, 2012, 06:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
As far as the Republican overwhelming majority in congress, picking up 50 seats in a single election is probably not practical. The Democrats picked up 8 or so.
I think it might take much longer for Dems to take back the House. The Republican-led redistrictings of the early 2000's gave them a huge advantage, if not an outright lock, in a lot of states. Also, even if the Republicans are losing national elections, they perform much more strongly in local elections- which is a major reason for the prominence of the Tea Parties.

Then again, we may soon be talking about something like a "Bachmann Effect," where even though your district is overwhelmingly red or blue, your current rep is so embarrassingly insane that you end up voting for the other party.
     
subego
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Nov 8, 2012, 05:35 PM
 
Bachmann didn't get Bachmanned yet.

People tend to hate Congress, but give their own senators and representatives a pass.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Nov 9, 2012, 04:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Bachmann didn't get Bachmanned yet.

People tend to hate Congress, but give their own senators and representatives a pass.
Mostly because they know more about their own local representatives, and as a result can't blankly pigeonhole them as "political scumwads". You see it all the time around here - "politicians are all scumbags".
Mankind's only chance is to harness the power of stupid.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Nov 9, 2012, 05:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Bachmann didn't get Bachmanned yet.
People tend to hate Congress, but give their own senators and representatives a pass.
From what I red redistricting + really red part of the state. And she still almost lost.
     
raleur
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Nov 9, 2012, 09:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
From what I red redistricting + really red part of the state. And she still almost lost.
This is my point- her district is solid red, but she won by 4200 votes: a 1.2% margin. Considering that she won two years ago by over 38,000 votes- over 12% margin. Or maybe there has been a serious outbreak of potholes in the last two years.
     
 
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