[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by subego 

@shif

What you see as argumentative is me hoping you had an opinion worth giving a **** about.

If that's just your taste, no one cares.

And?

I'm not interested in listening to a band I hate long enough to provide a detailed analysis of why I hate them. Sorry.

Life's way too short for that.

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Historical significance, definitely musical significance, but probably also cultural significance too. The Beatles were an American icon of an entire generation, Bieber is just a very temporary one (although he's actually Canadian

Most musicians that reach this level of prominence in our culture and are known decades after their prime have some substance to what it is that they did. That substance may not resonate with you personally, but it is undeniable. I can't explain why I know who Picasso is or what made him so great either, but he is in the same sort of category.

Do you think other famous musicians and groups from the 60s will be as widely remembered as the Beatles, especially 50+ years from now? (That's not a taunt; I'm just curious.)

Also, it's rather lulzy that the Beatles became an American icon...

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Do you think other famous musicians and groups from the 60s will be as widely remembered as the Beatles, especially 50+ years from now? (That's not a taunt; I'm just curious.)

Sure, they are just one example. I'm not sure how I'd rank them, but the Stones, Beach Boys, Jimi Hendrix, Doors, Dylan, Johnny Cash, and others will all be remembered for far longer than Bieber too.

[starman]

The Stones will, for sure. The Beach Boys, Zeppelin, Hendrix, just to name a few. Not many.

[shifuimam]

I love me some Beach Boys.

Never got into Zeppelin or Jimi Hendrix, though.

I think I'm more a 70s rock girl than 60s. I could listen to Queen all day.

[andi*pandi]

There are technical measures of talent, and then there are styles and attitudes.

Can Miley sing? Sure. Does she play an instrument? I have no idea.

Can she dance? Not anywhere near Janet Jackson/Madonna levels.

Do I want to listen/watch/give her attention? Not really.

There's lots of musicians who I have to admit are musically talented, even as I avoid listening to them at all costs. Mariah Carey, Whitney Houston (with a few exceptions) most of the pop divas. The notes are all there, but it doesn't seem to have feeling. It's just noise. Bland bland noise.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

There are technical measures of talent, and then there are styles and attitudes.

Can Miley sing? Sure. Does she play an instrument? I have no idea.

Can she dance? Not anywhere near Janet Jackson/Madonna levels.

Do I want to listen/watch/give her attention? Not really.

There's lots of musicians who I have to admit are musically talented, even as I avoid listening to them at all costs. Mariah Carey, Whitney Houston (with a few exceptions) most of the pop divas. The notes are all there, but it doesn't seem to have feeling. It's just noise. Bland bland noise.

There are tons and tons and tons of people out there with the technical ability to sing with perfection intonation and hit all the notes. Virtuosity is not a rare thing.

What is more rare is somebody that can really connect with people emotionally with how they sing and convey their story to you. I know this is cliché, but music is language, music is story telling. That singer that doesn't draw you in is sort of like that guy at the party that tells a story and has all the details right, but is awkward, perhaps makes you feel uncomfortable, and doesn't get you on his side.

In my opinion most people don't really know the difference between a good singer and a bad singer outside of the obvious technical stuff and whether or not they like the sound of their voice (although a singer like Louis Armstrong or Bob Dylan connected with a ton of people despite having unconventional sounding voices). Sometimes people confuse the image and product with the story and feel like they are being drawn in when what is drawing them in is other psychological things, and when you take away the whole production and put that musician in a room with that listener with nothing but their instrument, they can't connect with the listener in the same way.

This isn't always true, but generally speaking I believe that if you write your own music or have a huge hand in the creation of that song, you know every nook and cranny of the piece, and you can personalize it in such a way that your chances are greater in drawing in listeners. If you know something that musician's personal life and they are expressing this in their music, that can help too.

I don't think I'll ever feel drawn in by somebody like Cyrus or Bieber because they probably don't write their own songs (many pop artists do not), and what do they have in their lives they can share with me that would touch me? I'm sure they have their skeletons and things they could sing about that might genuinely touch somebody their age perhaps who empathize with them in some way, but when that thing is some manufactured bit of plastic bullshit, I think some people might feel like they are being touched, but what is touching them isn't what they think it is.

A lot of the female pop divas seem to be carrying on the soul singer tradition. Andi*pandi, I would be really interested in hearing from you after having checked out some older singers who wrote their own songs and had some plant to sing about, and whether they were able to connect with you if you haven't already gotten into the blues or something like that?

For example, Billie Holiday Strange Fruit. Here are the lyrics:

Southern trees bear strange fruit,
Blood on the leaves and blood at the root,
Black bodies swinging in the southern breeze,
Strange fruit hanging from the poplar trees.

Pastoral scene of the gallant south,
The bulging eyes and the twisted mouth,
Scent of magnolias, sweet and fresh,
Then the sudden smell of burning flesh.

Here is fruit for the crows to pluck,
For the rain to gather, for the wind to suck,
For the sun to rot, for the trees to drop,
Here is a strange and bitter crop.

I've always found these lyrics about black lynchings pretty profound, and certainly more poignant than most hush money pop singers sing about these days. You may or may not like the music, the tune, the sound of her voice, whatever, but what do you think of her delivery and ability to tell this story? This is a woman who was raped as a girl, worked in brothels, and her mom was a prostitute:

Billie Holiday - Strange Fruit - YouTube (it's only 2.5 minutes)

I'm interested in hearing from the rest of you guys too... Does it sound like she has plant to sing about, or does she sound fake?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

That's interesting, because many jazz musicians believe that jazz essentially died in 1959 in terms of its "cool" and "purity", if you will.

What is this guy's argument?

The Beatles.

[subego]

@besson

You're being hugely unfair by comparing a song about lynching to silly songs about ****ing.

P.S. Holiday didn't write those lyrics.

[Spheric Harlot]

The thing about pop is that it's not just about talent, or songwriting, or delivery: it's always been about the whole package.

The Beatles would not have been nearly as big if their guitars hadn't been too loud, and their hairstyles and attitudes not so outrageous (for the time).

Conservatives spent their time on available media discussing John Lennon's public Jesus comparison, and the kids saw the attention and realized that their parents disliked something. Bingo.

We're still listening to the Beatles because their songwriting and production was just phenomenal.

Jim Morrison got repeatedly arrested for obscenity and indecent exposure on stage. That was a pretty big part of how the Doors became popular.

There are plenty of such examples, many of which nobody remembers because the weren't "good" or "talented" and faded away. 2LiveCrew were HUGE and thrived entirely off Tipper Gore's whole "Explicit Lyrics" campaign and the fact that Wal-Mart banned them.

[subego]

"Face down, ass up. That's the way I like to ****"

I remember.

[subego]

Also, I think bigger than either Tipper or Wal-Mart, is they were arrested for obscenity in direct violation of the 1st Amendment.

That'll get you some press.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by subego 

@besson

You're being hugely unfair by comparing a song about lynching to silly songs about ****ing.

P.S. Holiday didn't write those lyrics.

Heh, yeah, you're right on both counts... I'm still curious to learn what people think/hear though...

P.S. why are you addressing me like we are on Twitter?

[subego]

I'm too lazy to quote and edit on an iPhone.

[besson3c]

#MacNNNeedsAResponsiveDesign

[subego]

Worst Twerk Fail EVER - Girl Catches Fire! - YouTube

Scrub to about 25s.

[subego]

@besson

Ironically, addressing you like it's Twitter is your fault. Long ago, you were the first person I ever saw doing it outside of a Twitter context.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

There are tons and tons and tons of people out there with the technical ability to sing with perfection intonation and hit all the notes. Virtuosity is not a rare thing.

What is more rare is somebody that can really connect with people emotionally with how they sing and convey their story to you. I know this is cliché, but music is language, music is story telling. That singer that doesn't draw you in is sort of like that guy at the party that tells a story and has all the details right, but is awkward, perhaps makes you feel uncomfortable, and doesn't get you on his side.

This is really obvious when you go to the symphony.

Watching a solo performed by one of millions of Asian kids whose parents made them play classical music from childhood is completely different from the same solo performed by someone with what I can only call inborn talent - something inside them that comes out in their music and performance that another performer just can't replicate.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

The thing about pop is that it's not just about talent, or songwriting, or delivery: it's always been about the whole package.

The Beatles would not have been nearly as big if their guitars hadn't been too loud, and their hairstyles and attitudes not so outrageous (for the time).

Conservatives spent their time on available media discussing John Lennon's public Jesus comparison, and the kids saw the attention and realized that their parents disliked something. Bingo.

We're still listening to the Beatles because their songwriting and production was just phenomenal.

Jim Morrison got repeatedly arrested for obscenity and indecent exposure on stage. That was a pretty big part of how the Doors became popular.

There are plenty of such examples, many of which nobody remembers because the weren't "good" or "talented" and faded away. 2LiveCrew were HUGE and thrived entirely off Tipper Gore's whole "Explicit Lyrics" campaign and the fact that Wal-Mart banned them.

Paul Anka is still going strong after almost 60 years.


He dated one "Disney Star" that did not go "off the rails"


Walt frowned upon their relationship, and as a result wrote, "Puppy Love"

[Chongo]

Miley take to German TV with an all "Little People" band

MILEY CYRUS Dances with Twerking Dwarfs on German TV Show ! - YouTube

 

[subego]

Strike when the iron is hot.

[mattyb]

She isn't shy is she?

[ShortcutToMoncton]

2:10 in. Still waiting for her to actually try swinging that 8lb sledge. Not that I in any way disapprove of her usage thus far.

Edit: well, sucks to your hot-girl-swinging-a-sledge-fantasy-mar.

[shifuimam]

Yeah, that video was something else. She's just trying SO HARD.

Also there's something about the opening tune that sounds really familiar....

[subego]

The twerk fail was a Jimmy Kimmel prank.

[Shaddim]

"I'm a grownup! See, I have lady parts!" *sigh* Oy vey... As an aside, I don't think Hemsworth is going to see that and think, "wow, I wish I had her back". She almost makes Ke$ha look downright wholesome, now.

[subego]

Well, for better or worse, Ke$ha hooked into a market which was underserved. Miley will be sticking her tongue out all the way to the bank.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

What's with the yiddish?

[Laminar]

Probably a remnant of his old username.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

What's with the yiddish?

I'd spent the day with my bubbe and she speaks in an English-German-Yiddish mix.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Ahhh hadn't realized you were Jewish

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Ahhh hadn't realized you were Jewish

I'm not, but I grew up with her grandson and she includes me as part of the family.

[Doc HM]

any hooo...

Miley

My 14 year old is really into Miley. Worships her. She really liked how she got out from Hannah Montana and turned back into herself (or a presentable sellable version of herself). You could see that as well as liking the music (we heard a LOT of Miley around), she was kind of modelling her self and her attitude on her. I guess this is fairly normal for a 14 year old girl.

So, just what is she supposed to do with this new Miley? At the very least it s a disturbing and confusing change of style. I suspect that she'll just move onto other things that she can relate to more, I'm hoping she doesn't feel she has to adopt this new persona too.

I get that Miley is essentially a business and she's trying to make sure she stays around longer than most teen moppets do in a Madonna, Gaga or even Kylie way, but really I hope she just vanishes.

[Laminar]

I agree with besson.

[subego]

She does look like Bieber in this one.

[shifuimam]

Dat tongue.

[andi*pandi]

Sinead O'Connor has a really honest letter for Miley:

Sinéad O'Connor's open letter to Miley Cyrus | Music | theguardian.com

[The Final Dakar]

She's already up to two.

[andi*pandi]

So she is. Some snarky back and forth there, which may just be press for Miley's SNL gig.

Sinead's website is down for all the traffic!

[mattyb]

Why did she (O'Connor) bother?

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

Why did she (O'Connor) bother?

Because she's outspoken?

[andi*pandi]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

Why did she (O'Connor) bother?

because miley compared her song to Sinead's, and thus her career.

[subego]

[subego]

I actually like that pic. The others are problematic.

[Shaddim]

Eww..

Terry Richardson's Diary | Miley Cyrus in NYC #14

[subego]

That's what that's from.

[andi*pandi]

Gross.

[The Final Dakar]

I think I like her hair even more in that set.

[BLAZE_MkIV]

Her only choice to remain even remotely relevant is to sensationalize the disney turned slut enough that she gets 1 hit album before obscurity consumes her.

[subego]

She can go sluttier, so I'd say she's got another album.

[turtle777]

Well, with that music, what a waste of a slut.

-t