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Ratspittle · Mar 13, 2007, 07:51 PM

So I have a question? If jesus died on the guillotine, would the symbol of Christianity be a guillotine? Would they still symbolize drinking his blood? Maybe out of a basket? I have always thought it was strange that they use the instrument of Christ's death as the symbol of their faith (christians), and I understand that it is supposed to represent the sacrifice that he made for all mankind. But it still seems a little weird to me. Why couldn't the symbol be fishes and wine, or the star he was born under? What if (metaphorically) he were gunned down? Would they use a bullet or gun as the symbol of religion?
BTW, the reason for this question sprung up today when I passed a karate studio with the symbol of a cross, and underneath the cross was a symbol of a person doing a karate pose.
WWJK- who would jesus kick?"

Gossamer · Mar 13, 2007, 08:01 PM

When performing communion, Jesus said (in Matthew 26:27-28) "And he took a cup of wine and gave thanks to God for it. He gave it to them and said, “Each of you drink from it, for this is my blood, which confirms the covenant between God and his people. It is poured out as a sacrifice to forgive the sins of many."
So communion itself has nothing to do with the method of execution.
Christians do use a fish as a symbol of Jesus (like the emblems on the back of cars), and the fish was the most popular Christian symbol in the first couple of centuries. The cross didn't become popular until the third century, partly due to Constantine's use of the Chi-Rho symbol (the Labarnum).
The cross represents Christ's victory over sin and death.

Hermit · Mar 13, 2007, 08:10 PM

I'm just thinking about how much cooler the ending to the gospels would have been if it had Jesus walking up to his disciples on the third day carrying his head;

"Hey Thomas! Here, catch!"

Ratspittle · Mar 13, 2007, 08:11 PM

I understand the scripture of the communion, and I know about the fish symbol. How many churches have you been in that had a giant wooden fish over the pulpit? The fact remains, however, that the cross is the main symbol of christianity...so if it was a guillotine, or a bullet, those be the symbol of christianity. I am really not looking for an answer as much as I am just trying to point out the absurdity of the symbol, and to make people think.

imitchellg5 · Mar 13, 2007, 08:12 PM

The Guillotine wasn't around when Jesus was on earth.

Ratspittle · Mar 13, 2007, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

The Guillotine wasn't around when Jesus was on earth.

Thanks for that professor...I know that. This is a rhetorical question. And just so you know, I am aware there were no guns when jesus was on earth either. Let's just clear that up right away.

- - e r i k - - · Mar 13, 2007, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by Ratspittle

Thanks for that professor...I know that. This is a rhetorical question. And just so you know, I am aware there were no guns when jesus was on earth either. Let's just clear that up right away.

Face Ache · Mar 13, 2007, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by Ratspittle

Thanks for that professor...I know that. This is a rhetorical question. And just so you know, I am aware there were no guns when jesus was on earth either. Let's just clear that up right away.

Intercontinental ballistic missiles?

Just wonderin'.

I think subliminally it's about persecution. But maybe that's just me.

Ratspittle · Mar 13, 2007, 09:48 PM

Can you imagine the pope with a ballistic missile on his funny hat?

ironknee · Mar 13, 2007, 10:44 PM

or hanged...that would be strange too...i can see the pope swinging a noose around

Ratspittle · Mar 13, 2007, 11:45 PM

This actually comes from a friend of mine to whom I asked the same question....

"when they used the guillotine regularly, they found out that a head will remain alive for a few minutes after it's been cut off. so--to answer your question--if jesus were beheaded, the symbol of christianity would be a bloody talking head. which would make david byrne a modern contemporary christian songwriter. hmm...

of course, if tom waits were in charge, we would all be worshipping a chocolate jesus. "

- - e r i k - - · Mar 14, 2007, 12:03 AM

I prefer MC 900ft. Jesus.

Face Ache · Mar 14, 2007, 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

I prefer MC 900ft. Jesus.

"Suppose I accidentally got my **** together."

Best. Line. Ever.

Christians with nooses around their necks? I spot a flaw with that idea...

ironknee · Mar 14, 2007, 12:37 AM

mmmm chocolate jesus...

Gossamer · Mar 14, 2007, 12:43 AM

I'm surprised the regulars haven't popped in here yet.

ironknee · Mar 14, 2007, 01:45 AM

Charlotte Corday from wiki

Four days after Marat was killed, on July 17, 1793, Corday was executed under the guillotine. Immediately upon decapitation, one of the executioner's assistants — a man hired for the day named Legros — lifted her head from the basket and slapped it on the cheek. Witnesses report an expression of "unequivocal indignation" on her face when her cheek was slapped. This slap was considered an unacceptable breach of guillotine etiquette, and Legros was imprisoned for 3 months because of his outburst[1].

i can see it now, christians slapping each other as a sign of devotion

Big Mac · Mar 14, 2007, 02:39 AM

Originally Posted by Gossamer

When performing communion, Jesus said (in Matthew 26:27-28) "And he took a cup of wine and gave thanks to God for it. He gave it to them and said, “Each of you drink from it, for this is my blood, which confirms the covenant between God and his people. It is poured out as a sacrifice to forgive the sins of many."

A bit off-topic, but according to this about.com page, an inscription in the Vatican reads: "He who will not eat of my body, nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved." But this inscription is attributed not to Jesus but to Mithra, one of the many heathen dying gods that predated the Christian deity. The Church Fathers noticed the common themes found in heathen cults that closely paralleled Christian belief, and thus they developed the doctrine of "diabolical mimicry" to account for the similarities. And btw, the covenant between God and Israel had nothing to do with remission of sin, let alone permanent vicarious atonement (a concept alien to Judaism).

RAILhead · Mar 14, 2007, 07:39 AM

"Make us think" -- think what, you're a dolt?

- - e r i k - - · Mar 14, 2007, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by RAILhead

"Make us think" -- think what, you're a dolt?

At least you have ended all speculations over whether you are a humourless grump or not.

lpkmckenna · Mar 14, 2007, 11:10 AM

"Holy heads" is actually very common in religion and myth.

The head of Bran the Blessed.
The head of Mimir.
Gawain and the Green Knight.
The Aegis.

Ratspittle · 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

At least you have ended all speculations over whether you are a humourless grump or not.

ummm...yeah, what he said.

To Railhead,
To think about symbolism, personally I like it when someone brings up a point I haven't thought about before. Now, maybe you have thought about the symbolism of the cross, maybe you just don't care, maybe I have offended you. Still is no cause for name calling. So far I have found a couple of interesting references in this thread that have made me think, and a LOT of humor. All in all, worth my time.
So...why don't you go piss on someone elses thread.

hyteckit · Mar 14, 2007, 01:48 PM

Drinking the blood and eating the flesh of Christ is the cool thing to do. All the kids are doing it these days.

PB2K · Mar 14, 2007, 01:50 PM

What if David Koresh did turn out to be the messiah..would you walk around with a burning farm around your neck??

Gossamer · Mar 14, 2007, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by Gossamer

I'm surprised the regulars haven't popped in here yet.

Originally Posted by RAILhead

"Make us think" -- think what, you're a dolt?

Ah, there we go.

Hillbilly Geek · 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

A bit off-topic, but according to this about.com page, an inscription in the Vatican reads: "He who will not eat of my body, nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved." But this inscription is attributed not to Jesus but to Mithra, one of the many heathen dying gods that predated the Christian deity. The Church Fathers noticed the common themes found in heathen cults that closely paralleled Christian belief, and thus they developed the doctrine of "diabolical mimicry" to account for the similarities. And btw, the covenant between God and Israel had nothing to do with remission of sin, let alone permanent vicarious atonement (a concept alien to Judaism).

Big Mac: not sure what you're getting at here, but some people are bothered by the similarities or resonances found in Christianity and other religions.
They seem to feel it somehow disproves Christianity.
But i feel that if the information about God as communicated to us in the Bible is true, it would be very surprising that other competing mythologies didn't have some common elements, like glasses on a shelf rattling when a chord is played on a mighty organ. Check out the story of Balder in Norse mythology...

(of course, that's kinda what your link is saying...)

Ratspittle · Mar 14, 2007, 04:30 PM

yet another quote from a friend...LOL

Guillotines are hard to make out of felt for sunday school story time visual aids.

I just don't think that would work.

Ratspittle · Mar 14, 2007, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by PB2K

What if David Koresh did turn out to be the messiah..would you walk around with a burning farm around your neck??

You bastard!!!! You made Canadian Club come out my nose! owwwwww!

olePigeon · Mar 14, 2007, 05:11 PM

I thought Tom Cruise was the messiah?

Monique · Mar 14, 2007, 05:41 PM

I guess it would be.

- - e r i k - - · Mar 14, 2007, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by Hillbilly Geek

Big Mac: not sure what you're getting at here, but some people are bothered by the similarities or resonances found in Christianity and other religions.
They seem to feel it somehow disproves Christianity.
But i feel that if the information about God as communicated to us in the Bible is true, it would be very surprising that other competing mythologies didn't have some common elements, like glasses on a shelf rattling when a chord is played on a mighty organ. Check out the story of Balder in Norse mythology...)

What it is saying is that (much to ironic chagrin for young-earthers and their like) is that religion evolves. Myths are shared, mutated, incorporated and assimilated. The Jesus/messiah myth was not unique in the middle-east when it was coined and now adopted as the core tenant of Christianity.

As for later on, well, Christianity is not exactly ONE religion now is it?

Big Mac · Mar 14, 2007, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

What it is saying is that (much to ironic chagrin for young-earthers and their like) is that religion evolves.

Those comparisons have nothing to do with the debate over the age of the earth. The heathen religions I was referring to are older than Christianity, but only by a couple thousand years at most.

Dark_Lotus · Mar 14, 2007, 09:47 PM

I wanna thank little baby Jesus, who's sittin' in his crib watchin the Baby Einstein videos, learnin' 'bout shapes and colors.

This is a rhetorical question.

Then why do you expect an answer at all?

Hermit · 10:42 PM

In referance to the crucifix, I always thought this was interesting;

Jeremiah 10:4-6
(New Living Translation)
"Their gods are like helpless scarecrows in a cucumber field! They cannot speak,and they need to be carried because they cannot walk.Do not be afraid of such gods,for they can neither harm you nor do you any good.”

Scarecrow = effigy of a guy hanging from cross-timbers with his arms stretched out.

First time I saw this, considerring that this is from a portion of the bible that was written several centuries before the (supposed) birth of Christ, let alone the crucifixion, I was like, "Holy ****! This guy (Jerimiah) really was a prophet"!

Either that or someone must have already been using the cross as a symbol of their faith in Jerimiah's time.

- - e r i k - - · Mar 15, 2007, 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Those comparisons have nothing to do with the debate over the age of the earth. The heathen religions I was referring to are older than Christianity, but only by a couple thousand years at most.

Uhm, yes. I didn't say that it had anything to do with the debate over the age of the earth. RELIGION evolves.

olePigeon · Mar 15, 2007, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by Hermit

Either that or someone must have already been using the cross as a symbol of their faith in Jerimiah's time.

Yes.

design219 · Mar 15, 2007, 04:38 PM

From a graphic design point of view, you couldn't get much simpler than a cross. Anyone can draw one.

Gossamer · Mar 16, 2007, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by design219

From a graphic design point of view, you couldn't get much simpler than a cross. Anyone can draw one.

Mine were always out of proportion.

Kevin · Mar 16, 2007, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by Hillbilly Geek

Big Mac: not sure what you're getting at here, but some people are bothered by the similarities or resonances found in Christianity and other religions.
They seem to feel it somehow disproves Christianity.
But i feel that if the information about God as communicated to us in the Bible is true, it would be very surprising that other competing mythologies didn't have some common elements, like glasses on a shelf rattling when a chord is played on a mighty organ. Check out the story of Balder in Norse mythology...

(of course, that's kinda what your link is saying...)

Indeed. Not only that, when two sides compete with each other, some ideas are stolen. Or Mocked.

Kevin · Mar 16, 2007, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

What it is saying is that (much to ironic chagrin for young-earthers and their like) is that religion evolves. Myths are shared, mutated, incorporated and assimilated. The Jesus/messiah myth was not unique in the middle-east when it was coined and now adopted as the core tenant of Christianity.

Of course it wasn't new to Christianity. God had been promising a "Messiah" for thousands of years before Christianity.

Kevin · Mar 16, 2007, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by Hermit

In referance to the crucifix, I always thought this was interesting;

Jeremiah 10:4-6
(New Living Translation)
"Their gods are like helpless scarecrows in a cucumber field! They cannot speak,and they need to be carried because they cannot walk.Do not be afraid of such gods,for they can neither harm you nor do you any good.”

Scarecrow = effigy of a guy hanging from cross-timbers with his arms stretched out.

First time I saw this, considerring that this is from a portion of the bible that was written several centuries before the (supposed) birth of Christ, let alone the crucifixion, I was like, "Holy ****! This guy (Jerimiah) really was a prophet"!

Either that or someone must have already been using the cross as a symbol of their faith in Jerimiah's time.

I think you missed the message.

Hermit · Mar 16, 2007, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

I think you missed the message.

Quite possiblly.

Which message would that be?

besson3c · Mar 16, 2007, 02:40 PM

I still think that Jesus must have pooped.

Hermit · Mar 16, 2007, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

I still think that Jesus must have pooped.

Damn Excretionists! (jk).

- - e r i k - - · Mar 16, 2007, 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

Of course it wasn't new to Christianity. God had been promising a "Messiah" for thousands of years before Christianity.

He told you this himself did he?

ironknee · Mar 17, 2007, 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by Kevin

Of course it wasn't new to Christianity. God had been promising a "Messiah" for thousands of years before Christianity.

why so long? and why 2000 years since jc and still a no show?