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Salty · Mar 24, 2009, 10:29 AM

OK so I was thinking the other day about how much better things would be if it wasn't for Microsoft. Balmer recently went complaining about how Apple is a 500 dollar logo, blah blah blah, when I know for most of us it's the OS and software on their devices that make it worth buying. Now the question is, which products would you consider running if they had an Apple designed OS?

I think the number one company I'd look at would be Samsung. I sell their cell phones, and they've got well in Canada it's the Jack, in the states it's the Black Jack II, and all in all it's a solid feeling device and if it didn't run Windows mobile I think it'd be worth buying. (here's hoping for android!) I also recently saw them put out a netbook and one of the first things I thought was, "I wonder how easily that could be hackintoshed" it basically looks like a smaller black MacBook. Even has the floating keyboard! I saw it on Cnet the other day. In general it seems very uncommon for me not to like the look of something made by Samsung, I have a 21.6 inch Samsung monitor, and I have one of their colour laser printers that's really nice.

So what companies can you think of who would be much more appealing if they had their own well designed software stack?

olePigeon · Mar 24, 2009, 11:51 AM

I fully switched to a BeBox for an entire year and a half before Be, Inc. went out of business. They were the one company that would have gotten me to walk away from Apple and I would have never looked back.

Truly a great Operating System. It's jaw dropping what they were doing with this thing nearly twenty years ago. This is before discrete graphics cards and everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zygz77Zz1i8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VDYdaXApNk

Jawbone54 · Mar 24, 2009, 12:04 PM

I'm admittedly a Bose whore, and I'm always interested in what Nintendo is doing. Canon and Nikon are constantly pushing DSLR tech forward. I'm addicted to Amazon too...

But no other company commands my interest quite like Apple.

Originally Posted by olePigeon

I fully switched to a BeBox for an entire year and a half before Be, Inc. went out of business. They were the one company that would have gotten me to walk away from Apple and I would have never looked back.

Truly a great Operating System. It's jaw dropping what they were doing with this thing nearly twenty years ago. This is before discrete graphics cards and everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zygz77Zz1i8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VDYdaXApNk

Wow...pretty interesting stuff. Well ahead of its time.

Their logo was horrrrrrible though.

SSharon · Mar 24, 2009, 12:07 PM

I think the interface of most cable box DVRs is terrible and would benefit from the Apple touch. My DVR has tons of features I never use because the menus are slow and non intuitive.
</offtopic>

olePigeon · Mar 24, 2009, 12:14 PM

How about instead of Microsoft Sync in a car *shudder*, Apple could make an embedded car OS.

badidea · Mar 24, 2009, 12:16 PM

Samsung (TV), Harman/Kardon (Audio) and Panasonic (Photo).

If I would be richer:
Samsung, Sharp or Pioneer (TV - better model), NAD (Audio) and Leica (Photo - basically still the same).

Doofy · Mar 24, 2009, 12:19 PM

I'm confused by the question. Is it this:

Favourite Non Apple Tech Companies?

or this:

Originally Posted by Salty

So what companies can you think of who would be much more appealing if they had their own well designed software stack?

Are we supposed to list our favourite tech companies, or companies who would be our favourites if they had OS Y.4.11 installed on their product?

badidea · Mar 24, 2009, 12:23 PM

I went with the topic - the text in the post was too confusing!

Doofy · Mar 24, 2009, 12:31 PM

OK then. Following that lead...

AMS-Neve. Euphonix. MOTU. Eventide. Lexicon. Roland. Sound Performance Lab. Focusrite. TC Helicon. Radial Engineering.

olePigeon · Mar 24, 2009, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

Wow...pretty interesting stuff. Well ahead of its time.

Their logo was horrrrrrible though.

Yeah, but protected memory, preemptive multitasking, real multiprocessor support. All of this in the 1990s. They were years ahead of their time. Nearly 100% increase in performance and speed with each additional CPU. No other OS can really do that. Neither Windows or OS X has true multiprocessor support on all levels; from the OS to every single application. OS X won't see anything like that until Grand Central for Snow Leopard.

It's just too bad Jean-Louis Gassée was a freakin' moron. All of that awesome technology could have made it into OS X.

Maflynn · Mar 24, 2009, 01:19 PM

Like the favorite brand thread, I really don't have any reall non-apple tech companies.

I suppose if I have to buy a non Macintosh computer, I'd either go with HP or Dell. Monitors and TVs, probably Samsung but I cannot say I have any "favorites"

nonhuman · Mar 24, 2009, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

It's just too bad Jean-Louis Gassée was a freakin' moron. All of that awesome technology could have made it into OS X.

I believe you mean Copeland.

And then Apple wouldn't have gotten Jobs back.

Salty · Mar 24, 2009, 05:46 PM

The idea of the thread was to discuss our favorite non apple companies. I mentioned Samsung because in general I love their hardware but I just wish their software didn't feel so second rate.

angelmb · Mar 24, 2009, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

Their logo was horrrrrrible though.

I haven't seen those videos but I guess that's the BeOS -operating system- logo cause the Be Incorporated -company- eye&ear logo was IMHO nice.

starman · Mar 24, 2009, 06:10 PM

EDIT: Confused. Is this a thread about "what would be better if branded by Apple" or "what tech companies do you like besides Apple"? The title and contents don't match.

angelmb · Mar 24, 2009, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by Salty

Balmer recently went complaining about how Apple is a 500 dollar logo

Then make your logo worth $600. Is that easy.

I missed that laughable comment, if in the biz of communications, image is king, the essence of this image, the logo, is a jewel in its crown. A logo is a flag, it doesn’t sell (directly), it identifies. It is rarely a description of a business. A logo derives its meaning from the quality of the thing it symbolizes, not the other way around, what it means is more important that what it looks like.
The Mercedes-Benz symbol, for example, has nothing to do with automobiles; yet it is a great symbol, not because its design is great (it is), but because it stands for a great product.

Design is a vehicle of memory, good design adds value, it respects the viewer, it is easier to remember, it is, in the end, a reflection of the business it symbolizes. It says “We care”. As Apple does, Microsoft doesn't.

Jawbone54 · Mar 25, 2009, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by angelmb

I haven't seen those videos but I guess that's the BeOS -operating system- logo cause the Be Incorporated -company- eye&ear logo was IMHO nice.

Much better.

As for Ballmer's $500 logo comment, it's just more proof that Microsoft just doesn't "get it." It's not about the logo, or even the "coolness factor." It's about the overall experience, ease of use, cleanness, style, and stability. Microsoft are clearly businessmen...not designers.

Jawbone54 · Mar 25, 2009, 12:34 AM

On a somewhat related note, here is an interesting blog post about Pepsi's new logo (worth the read, I think).

ctt1wbw · Mar 25, 2009, 02:55 AM

One company comes to mind. It's called ESSI. They made a most amazing piece of electronics. Amazing. I absolutely loved using this when I was underway. Simply an awesomely amazing thing.

http://www.janes.com/extracts/extrac.../jrew0826.html

gradient · Mar 25, 2009, 03:26 AM

Possibly not what the OP was thinking of but... Midas.

http://www.midasconsoles.com/

Spheric Harlot · Mar 25, 2009, 03:52 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

OK then. Following that lead...

AMS-Neve. Euphonix. MOTU. Eventide. Lexicon. Roland. Sound Performance Lab. Focusrite. TC Helicon. Radial Engineering.

MOTU? MOTU???

Um. Okay.

I'm going with Metric Halo.

Doofy · Mar 25, 2009, 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

MOTU? MOTU???

Um. Okay.

Only the HD192 (and the midi 'faces) - and only when clocked from a Big Ben.

OreoCookie · Mar 25, 2009, 05:44 AM

Nikon. And I'm surprised no one has mentioned google yet.

Doofy · Mar 25, 2009, 06:11 AM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

And I'm surprised no one has mentioned google yet.

Favourite companies... ...not companies which you've got to put up with because there's nothing else near the mark thus presenting a near monopoly.

Spheric Harlot · Mar 25, 2009, 06:54 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Only the HD192 (and the midi 'faces) - and only when clocked from a Big Ben.

That certainly no longer qualifies as a favorite company, though, does it?

I mean, it's sort of "my favorite interface, once you bypass the actual heart of A/D conversion, which is crap"...?

I do hear good things about the 192 though. The ubiquitous 828s are trashy and have pretty much made me want to avoid MotU.

Have you checked out the Mobile IO stuff?
My weapon of choice, and the most sensational long-term equipment investment strategy and support I've ever seen from ANY company. Only does 96kHz, but sounds like silk.

Doofy · Mar 25, 2009, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

That certainly no longer qualifies as a favorite company, though, does it?

I mean, it's sort of "my favorite interface, once you bypass the actual heart of A/D conversion, which is crap"...?

You got me there.

They do also serve another purpose - keeping Logic on its toes with the competition from DP (and that new drum software thingy has got to force an Ultrabeat update, no?).

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

I do hear good things about the 192 though. The ubiquitous 828s are trashy and have pretty much made me want to avoid MotU.

Yeah. Most of the rest of their stuff is crap. And they never answer emails.
I guess what I really like is the fact that they exist and don't do Windows. We need that for the Mac, I reckon.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

Have you checked out the Mobile IO stuff?

Only on the site. Not IRL.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

My weapon of choice, and the most sensational long-term equipment investment strategy and support I've ever seen from ANY company. Only does 96kHz, but sounds like silk.

Aye. 96 is OK for me, but I needs my high I/O count (mix outside the box and all that).

Maflynn · Mar 25, 2009, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Nikon. And I'm surprised no one has mentioned google yet.

because google is evil

mattyb · Mar 25, 2009, 08:52 AM

Favourite Non Apple Tech Companies : IBM

Best server operating system : zOS
Best server hardware : Z10
Best Database Software : IMS
Best relational database software : DB2 - on the mainframe
Best App Server : Websphere
Best CPU : Power 6
Best laptop hardware : Thinkpad - when it was IBM.

I only worked for IBM for two months, but I've been using their tech (along with others) during my career, and they never cease to impress.

OreoCookie · Mar 25, 2009, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Favourite companies... ...not companies which you've got to put up with because there's nothing else near the mark thus presenting a near monopoly.

They've revolutionized search on the internet. I don't use their other services -- with the exception of google maps, though. Plus, Apple has a very dominant role in the music player and online music sales business, no?

I don't think they will be successful with their Android platform or Office alternatives.

Doofy · Mar 25, 2009, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

They've revolutionized search on the internet.

Revolutionised? That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
How is a Google search any different from how an Infoseek or Excite search used to be (other than the fact that there's a bagload more sites out there now)?

nonhuman · Mar 25, 2009, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Revolutionised? That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
How is a Google search any different from how an Infoseek or Excite search used to be (other than the fact that there's a bagload more sites out there now)?

PageRank.

waxcrash · Mar 25, 2009, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by Salty

The idea of the thread was to discuss our favorite non apple companies...

Well if that is the case, here are a few off of the top of my head:

Arca-Swiss - cameras and ball heads
Gitzo S.A. - tripods
Nikon Corporation - cameras and lenses
Sigma Corporation - cameras and lenses
Lowepro - camera bags
Canon Inc. - cameras and lenses
Fender Musical Instruments Corporation - guitars, basses, and amps
Washburn Guitars - acoustic guitars
Streetly Electronics - Mellotron
Moog Music - analog synthesizers
Access Music - Virus Indigo synthesizer
Roland Corporation - synthesizers
Ableton AG - Ableton Live
Propellerhead Software - Reason
Suunto Oy - compasses and watches
ABU Garcia - fishing equipment
Petzl - climbing gear and headless lamps
Mountain Safety Research - camping and hiking equipment, portable stoves
Kelty - camping and hiking equipment, tents, sleeping bags, backpacks
Sony Ericsson - cell phones

Jawbone54 · Mar 25, 2009, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Revolutionised?

Ahhhh...

Another reminder that you Redcoats boycott the letter Z.

Dakar V · Mar 25, 2009, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

Ahhhh...

Another reminder that you Redcoats boycott the letter Z.

I hope you pronounced that 'zed.'

Doofy · Mar 25, 2009, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

Ahhhh...

Another reminder that you Redcoats ~~boycott the letter Z~~ speak English.

Fixed.

Jawbone54 · Mar 25, 2009, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Fixed.

America wins.

Jawbone54 · Mar 25, 2009, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Dakar V

I hope you pronounced that 'zed.'

I believe you mean "Zedd."

Doofy · Mar 25, 2009, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

America wins the annual "let's all dress boringly" competition.

Fixed.

Jawbone54 · Mar 25, 2009, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

America wins the annual "let's all dress like something other than Santa Claus" competition.

Fixed.

Fixed your fixed.

Doofy · Mar 25, 2009, 11:25 AM

Salty · Mar 25, 2009, 01:16 PM

Software wise I like google, though I still prefer Apple for most things. I use Gmail used to use Blogger before I switched over to using iWeb for my blog. Apple and Google are actually quickly moving to compete on a lot of fronts though.

Picasa vs. iPhoto
Chrome vs Safari
Gmail vs .mac (though not really haha!)
Blogger + Page creator or whatever it is vs iWeb.

Oh shoot I had a whole list the other day. Actually I think the major places I found myself wondering if I'd go with a google product was for my blog, my photos and my email. Obviously I kept Gmail, but I don't use Blogger anymore nor do I use Picasa.

Maflynn · Mar 25, 2009, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by Salty

used to use Blogger before I switched over to using iWeb for my blog.

A tad off topic but can I ask why you switched over to iWeb?

I clicked on your link below your sig and it took forever to render which is typical with my experience with iWeb/Mobile Me. I found iWeb to be a little faster on non-mobile me servers though.

I use movabletype for blog on theologynow blog, in part because of the flexibility it affords me, such as editing online, where as iWeb requires you to be at a mac to enter a post. Plus the aforementioned performance issues I noticed as well.

Mar 25, 2009, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by mattyb

Best App Server : Websphere

Seriously? My wife has to develop on websphere in her job and curses that piece of garbage every day.

Maflynn · 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by mattyb

Best Database Software : IMS
Best App Server : Websphere
Best laptop hardware : Thinkpad - when it was IBM.

This post has to be sarcastic.

IMS, heck I started developing in IMS over 20+ years ago and not much has changed with the DBMS. Websphere is downright awful, there's much better products out there. The thinkpad is an ok laptop. I used one for years and found it mediocre at best. I have no idea of Leveno has improved it or not but when it was IBM, the laptop was nothing spectacular.

What happened to your oracle fanboyism, you seemed to have drank the ibm cool aid and turned into a big blue cheer leader. IBM isn't bad, I've been working in IBM shops for over 20 years and I think IBM has a lot of great tools and technology, but I would never consider IMS to be the best DB, or the thinkpad a great laptop. The same goes for websphere.

mattyb · Mar 26, 2009, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by Maflynn

This post has to be sarcastic.

Not meant to be.

Originally Posted by Maflynn

IMS, heck I started developing in IMS over 20+ years ago and not much has changed with the DBMS. Websphere is downright awful, there's much better products out there. The thinkpad is an ok laptop. I used one for years and found it mediocre at best. I have no idea of Leveno has improved it or not but when it was IBM, the laptop was nothing spectacular.

What other DBMS can compare to IMS? The transactions per day around the world done with IMS as the back-end prove (to me at least) that this software is probably the most relied upon database in the world. Not sure that I agree that not much has changed. IMH experience IMS has changed, both on the transaction management side and the database side - intergration of Java and web technologies in particular.

Websphere because. It was solid when I worked with it. Weblogic, Tomcat, JBoss, OAS were not as solid. I'm not sure if it was our Websphere admins or our Websphere development process that made this experience good or not. The Weblogic admin here seems to have enjoyed his Websphere time as well.

Originally Posted by Maflynn

What happened to your oracle fanboyism, you seemed to have drank the ibm cool aid and turned into a big blue cheer leader. IBM isn't bad, I've been working in IBM shops for over 20 years and I think IBM has a lot of great tools and technology, but I would never consider IMS to be the best DB, or the thinkpad a great laptop. The same goes for websphere.

I'm still an Oracle fanboy. I still think that Oracle is the best RDBMS on Unix or Windows or Linux, but before working on 'small' systems I worked on mainframes - and still would if I could find a job not in Paris. zOS plus IMS plus DB2 is IMHO THE best business software foundation that you can get. Add in the network capabilities, RACF or ACF2 (I prefer RACF), full POSIX compliance, clusterability, energy efficiency etc. And you have, in one box, all you need to run your business, grow your business etc. Need more CPU? Phone call, type code into HMC - presto more CPU. Of course you have to pay more.

No I do not advocate small businesses buying a mainframe and yes I do realise that finding sys progs is difficult. It isn't for everyone - even though I think that it should be.

I've talked to devs who have worked on both systems. One of the re-occuring arguments was about freedom. On the mainframe there wasn't alot of freedom. Even though they said that they didn't like the restrictions, they said that in fact it made for better/faster programs. We used to throw anything and everything we could at our little 1000MIPS and it handled it. We added z/VM and Linux partitions, we had the same physical machine on several networks, running a firewall, doing routing, serving web pages, running financial programs, spare parts, truck manufacturing factories - 5 of them - in different countries. We had 10 000 people active at times. The beast impressed me. The OS impressed me. Its a pity that nobody is interested in learning the mainframe, I really do think that it has lots (more) to offer.

While IBM adverts cannot always be trusted, have you seen the one about the empty server room with a mainframe in the corner? That was exactly how it was where I worked. We were a team of five. The Windows server room was overflowing into the mainframe server room - they were about 15 people. IIRC three were full time on virus/patching duty. The UNIX team was a bit better but not much. Us 5, with our Server in the corner, uncared for, green screen, legacy, kept the factories making our products. I guess that it sort of made me feel like zOS was the underdog.

I've had Dells, HPs, Compaqs and IBM Thinkpads. The Thinkpads have always lasted longer and better than the others. No, its not spectacular, its reliable. Its tough.

Now, I must admit that recently I have begun to look unfavourably on IBM, Oracle and other big companies. This includes Apple. I do realise that they aren't in business to be your best friend, but one has to question what sort of situation we'll have in the future if anything you want to develop is already patented by a handful of companies. Oracle's behaviour atm regarding Weblogic licensing and the use of Oracle products on Power6 CPUs is quite frankly disgusting. I admire Oracle's products - in particular the Database, but the company is a den of thieves. I'm pretty sure that if I had a close working relationship with IBM then I would have the same impression.

OreoCookie · 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Revolutionised? That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

No, not really.
Regardless of how google works on the inside (and that does work differently from all its predecessors), it's results were a lot more accurate than that of other search engines of that time. I used to use metacrawler before -- a meta search engine: it polled various search engines which were popular at the time and used that as initial data for its own algorithms. In terms of quality of results, it was a quantum leap from all the search engines of the first generation.

Let's add to the list of tech companies:
Audio: I like NAD, very affordable, great sound quality for the price.
Computer: Amiga: for having things like `many' colors and multitasking years before.

turtle777 · Mar 26, 2009, 11:15 AM

Dole

-t

Salty · Mar 26, 2009, 12:59 PM

Another company I like is RIM the makers of the BlackBerry. Granted If you give me a choice between one and an iPhone I'll pick the iPhone, RIM does make great hardware, and the software is pretty dang good for what they're trying to do. Granted I don't like the new theme for the OS on the new phones, and I think unless they start focusing more on making an entirely different OS they're gonna slowly start putting lipstick on a pig.

- - e r i k - - · Mar 26, 2009, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

On a somewhat related note, here is an interesting blog post about Pepsi's new logo (worth the read, I think).

Salty · Mar 27, 2009, 12:47 PM

Strong Sad?