[Helmling]

Everything we argue about here pretty much boils down to which of two stories you believe in:

The Conservative Myth goes like this: Your position in society is a product of your own efforts and merit.

The Liberal Myth says: Your position in society is a product of many variables including social factors stemming from race, gender, socioeconomic background, and other inequalities.

I hope it's not a newsflash that neither is completely true. But which one is simpler, easier to accept? Which one makes you feel better if you're successful? Which one makes you feel better if you're not?

[tie]

"Everything we argue about here pretty much boils down to which of two stories you believe in:"

I don't think so at all. I also don't think those are accurate characterizations of conservatism versus liberalism.

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by tie 

"Everything we argue about here pretty much boils down to which of two stories you believe in:"

I don't think so at all. I also don't think those are accurate characterizations of conservatism versus liberalism.

Give me yours then.

[Kerrigan]

I would like to point out how people who oppose myths often tend to buy into the premise of the myth, and attempt to oppose it at every turn, thus reinforcing the myth. I know this because I hang around a lot with gay guys who are like this. They allow conservatives to define them by always trying to do the opposite of what the conservatives do, in dress, food, and outlook on life.

Then you have the odd sorts, the fem gay guys who are hardcore conservatives in all buy gay rights. Perhaps I'm one of those (god I hope not) but I have known guys like this.

[Chuckit]

So people's states are neither because of one thing nor because of many things? Does that mean things are the way they are for no reason at all?

[Spliffdaddy]

The cruelest thing you can do is to tell somebody they have no control over their own life. To suggest that, no matter what they do, they can never influence their life or their own happiness. I know we've all met people who never blame themselves for their own bad decisions. Hell, I was married to a girl like that. She could spill her beer upstairs while I was mowing the grass outside - yet by some miracle it was my fault her beer got spilled. In essence, this is what's known as a 'victim mentality'. Nothing is your fault. No effort you make nor any of your decisions can ever improve your life. It's life lived by pure fate. A mere roll of the dice.
I've always believed that individuals can determine the outcome of their own lives. They can absolutely WILL themselves into a life full of reward and happiness. This is true for at least 99% of people on Earth and probably more than that.
Liberals, it seems, tend to disagree with that premise. They believe that an individual's life is pre-determined at conception. They believe that a child born into poverty or born to uncaring parents is destined to be unhappy for the next 70+ years. And there's nothing that can be done to change that life.
The difference between liberals and conservatives - in MY opinion - is that conservatives strive to never be victims. They will not admit defeat even in the face of certain defeat. Conservatives are perpetually happy, especially if they have every reason to be miserable. A liberal simply exists in order to eventually die. It's a dull lifetime spent waiting to be happy. Expecting, by some miracle, that the next roll of the dice will finally favor them. And a lifetime where happiness is a zero-sum game. If one person has a fulfilling life, then by virtue of that - another cannot. More often than not, a liberal believes that money is happiness. And again, wealth is a zero-sum game. For every dollar held by another, exists a dollar that cannot be held by the liberal. A liberal thinks that money can buy happiness. They think that wealthy people are happier than poor people. Hence their desire to redistribute wealth...their fascination with haves and have-nots. Their belief that the gap between rich and poor needs fixed because poor people can never lead happy meaningful lives.
Some of happiest people I ever met were the least wealthy people I ever met. Pretty much all the rich folks I know are mere moments away from blowing their miserable heads off with a handgun.

It's what I believe. don't judge.

[Kerrigan]

I agree with you for the most part, Spliff. Especially the bit about needing strong willpower to succeed and/or be happy.

One thing which I find especially unsettling as I get older is the realization that most of the people in the world are simply losers. I see this pattern of logic all too often: (with --> meaning "because")

I'm still at community college after 3 years --> I failed yet another test --> I felt like watching TV instead of studying.

It's shocking to me how many people are like that.

One of the greatest, and simplest lessons I've learned in life is that if I don't want to do something, then I probably should be doing it. I hate getting up at 4:30am for early rowing practice... that I means I should get up anyways because it will pay off when the regatta comes around. I hate sitting down and studying for hours, and that means I probably should get started with it if I want an 'A'. I find parties bothersome and inconveniently scheduled, but I go anyways because this is how one establishes connections. You have to force yourself to do things which you don't like in order to have a rewarding life.

Saddly, though, the average person is a loser- he or she will just take life as it comes and then blame problems on others. They might be bold and strong-willed in speech, but when it comes to action they are lacking in resolve.

[Uncle Skeleton]

You smoke too much of that stuff it's going to rob you of your ambition...

...not if your ambition is to get high and watch tv

[tie]

I don't agree with any of the stereotypes presented so far.

"The difference between liberals and conservatives - in MY opinion - is that conservatives strive to never be victims... A liberal simply exists in order to eventually die."

Please, that's really idiotic.

[Atheist]

I think it's silly to lump humans in one of two categories. I know plenty of "conservatives" that have victim mentalities who take life as it comes with no ambition or will to make a difference. I also know plenty of "liberals" that are dynamic ambitious souls who work hard every day to make life better for themselves and others. Splif, I think your characterizations are purely based on your own prejudices and need to classify people.

[- - e r i k - -]

There are two kinds of people in this world: people who lump people into two categories, and people who don't.

[Dork.]

I generally agree with Spliffdaddy, sort of. I've certainly seen many of his victims in action, people who would never take responsibility for their own actions. But in my experience it has nothing to do with how "sucessful" you are, or any indicator of a "rich/poor" divide. In fact, I've met my share of highly-paid Corporate managers and executives who are very visible when things go well but always find ways to evade responsibility for a poor decisions. In their case, their victim mentality actively feeds their success, because they reflexively deflect blame for their bad decisions on unfortunate underlings, who are increasingly disposable.

The insidious thing about these types of people is that if you ask them the secret to their success, they'll say that it's all about their hard work and deride the less successful people as being lazy. They don't even realize that their success is based on manipulating the system to advance on the efforts of others, because the system rewards this behavior. (It's one of the reasons I don't work in a Big, Multinational Company anymore....)

On the other hand, I've seen plenty of people who provide real value to others, who literally change people's lives, but who aren't compensated nearly enough to make ends meet. The people I know in this position will never complain about it, after all, their work is fulfilling and they're making just enough money to put food on the table. But there's nothing about their work ethic or skills that dictates their work should be worth less than mine. "The Market" for their type of work simply commands a lower salary than mine.

After observing these people, is it any wonder that I don't have the blind faith in markets or "the system" that many conservatives have?

[Helmling]

That's precisely why I called these "myths," Dork. Nobody really lives by either. We just frame everything through these narratives, altering our own perceptions of reality.

P.S. I just reread this little post and because I directly addressed you, it sounds like I was insulting you. LOL.

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy 

The difference between liberals and conservatives - in MY opinion - is that conservatives strive to never be victims. They will not admit defeat even in the face of certain defeat. Conservatives are perpetually happy, especially if they have every reason to be miserable. A liberal simply exists in order to eventually die. .

THAT is absolutely hilarious. I know I wanted to air our respective mythologies--but come on! You didn't have to parody your self-serving world-view so completely as to make you absurd like that.

Really, Spliff, you've gone too far. I mean, I appreciate you getting into the spirit of the thread and all, but I can't possibly make the liberal myth look half as bad as you made the conservative's arrogant presumption sound there.

You win. Ala Spliff, we will now reword the myths:

The Conservative myth is that there are never any victims.

The Liberal myth is that everyone's a victim.

I kind of like them...but do they really have explanatory power to differentiate the range of beliefs that conservatives have? That liberals have?

[Spliffdaddy]

The Conservative myth is that there are never any victims.

The Liberal myth is that everyone's a victim.

Nice summary. A more accurate way to say it would be that conservatives believe people will generally do the right thing - while liberals believe that people will not generally do the right thing...that people are not inherently good.

[tie]

Generally, conservatives are good people, who walk a path of righteousness as they live their lives respectful of God and country.

Liberals are slimy snakes who rarely, if ever, bathe.

It's what I believe. don't judge.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy 

A more accurate way to say it would be that conservatives believe people will generally do the right thing - while liberals believe that people will not generally do the right thing...that people are not inherently good.

I think the history of mankind has borne out the idea that people are not inherently good. I learned that when I was 10 and I had to blow all my money just replacing my bikes that kept getting stolen.

[Spliffdaddy]

If people were not inherently good, then how do you explain your fulfilling decent life?

If people were inherently bad, somebody would have long ago slit your throat in order to have your shoes.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Helmling 

Everything we argue about here pretty much boils down to which of two stories you believe in:

The Conservative Myth goes like this: Your position in society is a product of your own efforts and merit.

The Liberal Myth says: Your position in society is a product of many variables including social factors stemming from race, gender, socioeconomic background, and other inequalities.

What you call the conservative myth is also known asThe Fundamental Attribution Error. It is a real and documented bias in how we perceive others. Is what you call the liberal myth really even a myth? Maybe what you mean is that conservatism is based on a common, documented myth and liberalism is based on the refutation of that myth?

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy 

The Conservative myth is that there are never any victims.

The Liberal myth is that everyone's a victim.

Nice summary. A more accurate way to say it would be that conservatives believe people will generally do the right thing - while liberals believe that people will not generally do the right thing...that people are not inherently good.

No, that's just you projecting your myth--in a pretty silly way, really. I'm trying to come up with an objective summary.

Conservatism has little to do with beliefs about whether people will do the right thing, but more about whether there is an order that needs to be protected that is somehow within itself right. They are then trying to "conserve" a particular social order.

Whereas liberals believe in rejection and redefinition of social order in accord with an overriding belief in the prevalence of privilege and entrenched power hierarchies within that social order.

Many conservatives, in fact, have a much more negative view of human nature. Fundamentalist Christians believe in an essentially corrupt human nature via original sin, for example. Conservatives are much more likely to believe that a person's status is the result of defects in his own character; again, a more negative view of people's innate natures.

Liberals, by contrast, tend to ascribe such negative characterizations to those empowered by the social structure. The counter-assumption to the conservatives who believe that a poor person is poor by virtue of poor life choices would be the liberal belief that a rich person is rich by virtue of exploitation of others.

Those are much wordier versions of the myths I was talking about. As before: neither is wholly true, but each serves those who believe in it.

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy 

If people were not inherently good, then how do you explain your fulfilling decent life?

If people were inherently bad, somebody would have long ago slit your throat in order to have your shoes.

Obviously this sort of characterization is hopelessly based on your vantage. You're saying that anyone who leads a prosperous life must assume that human nature is essentially good--indicating that they must be horribly myopic as you seem to be.

Whereas anyone who is, say, living in a warzone like Darfur must assume that human nature is bad.

The reality, of course, is that good and bad are relative and that human nature is neither absent our perceptions. Your rather ridiculous ascriptions serve as an excellent, if exaggerated, illustration of exactly that truism.

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

What you call the conservative myth is also known asThe Fundamental Attribution Error. It is a real and documented bias in how we perceive others. Is what you call the liberal myth really even a myth? Maybe what you mean is that conservatism is based on a common, documented myth and liberalism is based on the refutation of that myth?

I'd say that your description is just heavily biased towards the liberal myth. Conservatives could just as easily develop their own attribution error that says liberals are over emphasizing situation over dispositional factors in human responses.

They are still two competing stories, no matter which we favor.

(I know there is experimental evidence in favor of the fundamnetal attribution error, but its application to this situation cannot be made without the danger of said biases.)

[Spliffdaddy]

translation, please.

[Chuckit]

Я хотел сказать, что описание является лишь сильно тяготеют к либеральным мифом. Консерваторов, может легко разрабатывать собственные ошибки атрибуции говорит, что либералы более подчеркивая ситуацию вокруг dispositional факторов в области ответов. Они еще два конкурирующих историй, какую мы пользу. (Я знаю, что экспериментальные данные в пользу fundamnetal ошибка атрибуции, , но его применение в этой ситуации не может быть достигнут без опасности говорит предвзятость.)

[Spliffdaddy]

gotcha. thanks.

(damn. I don't think I could laugh any harder)

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

There are two kinds of people in this world: people who lump people into two categories, and people who don't.

There are three kinds of people in this world: people who lump people into categories, people who ironically point out that people lump people into categories, and people who quote people who are ironically pointing out that people lump people into categories.

There are four kinds of people in this world: people who lump people into categories, people who ironically point out that people lump people into categories, people who quote people who are ironically pointing out that people lump people into categories, and people who quote people who quote people who ironically point out that people lump people into categories.

[Spliffdaddy]

there are five kinds of people in this world. four of them are dumbasses and the fifth think like me.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

One of the greatest, and simplest lessons I've learned in life is that if I don't want to do something, then I probably should be doing it. I hate getting up at 4:30am for early rowing practice... that I means I should get up anyways because it will pay off when the regatta comes around. I hate sitting down and studying for hours, and that means I probably should get started with it if I want an 'A'. I find parties bothersome and inconveniently scheduled, but I go anyways because this is how one establishes connections. You have to force yourself to do things which you don't like in order to have a rewarding life.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you on this but wanted to discuss if further. I've known people who have taken this too far and are miserable. If you spend your entire life forcing yourself to do things you don't like, when exactly does the rewarding part kick in? When do you stop having to go to parties that you apparently hate? Should you force yourself to marry a rich spouse so that you'll have a big house even though you don't like the person? Should you force yourself into a well paying occupation because the pay is better -- rather than one in which you are satisfied?

I think in order to be happy and successful, you have to put forth a significant effort - which may be what you were getting at.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

After observing these people, is it any wonder that I don't have the blind faith in markets or "the system" that many conservatives have?

Well, some right-leaning people around here feel "the system" is against them. They blame "the system" for holding back their potential.

BTW, some left-leaning people around here feel the exact same way. Funny that...

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Helmling 

I'd say that your description is just heavily biased towards the liberal myth. Conservatives could just as easily develop their own attribution error that says liberals are over emphasizing situation over dispositional factors in human responses.

They are still two competing stories, no matter which we favor.

(I know there is experimental evidence in favor of the fundamnetal attribution error, but its application to this situation cannot be made without the danger of said biases.)

I'd like a translation of this as well. Either people tend to over-emphasize the person or they over-emphasize the situation; it can't be both. It turns out that people tend to over-emphasize the situation, which is what you call the conservative myth.

It doesn't make sense to say "conservatives could just as easily develop their own attribution error." If the Fundamental Attribution Error is empirically true, then I don't see how its opposite can be true. And it's not as if it is some kind of political phenomenon funded by the DNC anyway. It's something that was discovered and documented without any reference to politics or political views.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Pretty much all the rich folks I know are mere moments away from blowing their miserable heads off with a handgun.

Hmmm... Time to get new acquaintances.

[Dakarʒ]

I wonder how much they'd pay for that handgun.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by Zeeb 

I think in order to be happy and successful, you have to put forth a significant effort - which may be what you were getting at.

I think that if what you are doing is really so damn rewarding then you wouldn't have to to "force" yourself to do it and it won't really seem like effort.

[tie]

More news about the Conservative Myth:

[Former Surgeon General] Dr. Carmona said he was ordered to mention President Bush three times on every page of his speeches. He also said he was asked to make speeches to support Republican political candidates and to attend political briefings.

And administration officials even discouraged him from attending the Special Olympics because, he said, of that charitable organization’s longtime ties to a “prominent family” that he refused to name.

“I was specifically told by a senior person, ‘Why would you want to help those people?’ ” Dr. Carmona said.

The Special Olympics is one of the nation’s premier charitable organizations to benefit disabled people, and the Kennedys have long been deeply involved in it.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

I think that if what you are doing is really so damn rewarding then you wouldn't have to to "force" yourself to do it and it won't really seem like effort.

Ouch. and I do mean ouch. It's exceedingly rare when we disagree on anything. But in this instance, I think it finally happened.
In all my years of life I have yet to encounter anything that was effortless and rewarding. All of the things I've found meaningful have required effort, patience, and sacrifice. I question myself daily because I work so hard toward a goal that may or may not be worthwhile.
I think I get this from my parents. They always worked hard...and sometime for no reason that I could see. Sometimes I see my father outside with a shovel in his hands. He'll work all day moving dirt. He honestly enjoys hard work for the sake of hard work. I would rather call my backhoe guy and have him work for 2 hours instead of me having to use a shovel for 4 days. I can tell my father looks down on me for my beliefs. I try to tell him that when I am dying I won''t wish I had worked harder - I'll wish I worked less often.
In almost every thing worth having there is much effort and sacrifice. Nothing that was given to me was worth a damn. That's mostly why I think welfare doesn't work. Give me a house and money and I won''t thank you for it. I didn't earn it. It would mean nothing to me.
Money cannot buy the things I desire from life. I've spent years of my life focused on money and I'm no closer to having the things I want from life than I ever was.
Hard work is one of the best ways to feel better about yourself. It makes you appreciate things. You take less for granted. Even in relationships, it works wonders. Women, as a rule, are not reasonable. My girlfriend lives like 400 miles away. She knows I'm trying my best to be closer to her. She still begs me to come visit her - as if 400 miles is not an issue. And she's right. It's actually a small sacrifice. I wish I could see things that way.
Feel sorry for people who are given things. Respect those people that earned what they have.

[Eug]

It's hard to know if Spliff is just pulling our collective legs or not.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy 

Give me a house and money and I won''t thank you for it. I didn't earn it. It would mean nothing to me.

Okay, if Spliff's not taking the free house and money, I will.

And I promise, I will say "thank you".

I mean, hey, I do agree with most of Spliff's points on hard work and all that, but turn down free real estate? Pffft!

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy 

Ouch. and I do mean ouch. It's exceedingly rare when we disagree on anything. But in this instance, I think it finally happened.
In all my years of life I have yet to encounter anything that was effortless and rewarding. All of the things I've found meaningful have required effort, patience, and sacrifice. I question myself daily because I work so hard toward a goal that may or may not be worthwhile.
I think I get this from my parents. They always worked hard...and sometime for no reason that I could see. Sometimes I see my father outside with a shovel in his hands. He'll work all day moving dirt. He honestly enjoys hard work for the sake of hard work. I would rather call my backhoe guy and have him work for 2 hours instead of me having to use a shovel for 4 days. I can tell my father looks down on me for my beliefs. I try to tell him that when I am dying I won''t wish I had worked harder - I'll wish I worked less often.
In almost every thing worth having there is much effort and sacrifice. Nothing that was given to me was worth a damn. That's mostly why I think welfare doesn't work. Give me a house and money and I won''t thank you for it. I didn't earn it. It would mean nothing to me.
Money cannot buy the things I desire from life. I've spent years of my life focused on money and I'm no closer to having the things I want from life than I ever was.
Hard work is one of the best ways to feel better about yourself. It makes you appreciate things. You take less for granted. Even in relationships, it works wonders. Women, as a rule, are not reasonable. My girlfriend lives like 400 miles away. She knows I'm trying my best to be closer to her. She still begs me to come visit her - as if 400 miles is not an issue. And she's right. It's actually a small sacrifice. I wish I could see things that way.
Feel sorry for people who are given things. Respect those people that earned what they have.

I don't think we disagree all that much, I think you just misunderstood me.

I just meant to say that many people (myself included) tend to make the mistake of doing things that they are "supposed to do" or that is "good for them" rather than doing what they really love or need to do.

[macintologist]

A good example of conservatives with victim mentalities are those who think the MSM, universities, the government, judges, etc etc are out to get them and stiffle their Christian views. They think there's a grand conspiracy to undermine the Christian underpinnings of this country.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

They think there's a grand conspiracy to undermine the Christian underpinnings of this country.

Which, of course, there is. It's called "The Democrats".

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

A good example of conservatives with victim mentalities are those who think the MSM, universities, the government, judges, etc etc are out to get them and stiffle [sic] their Christian views. They think there's a grand conspiracy to undermine the Christian underpinnings of this country.

Don't forget Terrrists. We're victims of them too.

Thinking there's a grand conspiracy to undermine your views is getting seriously cliché. It might even catalyze a switch back to conservatives acting conservatively and liberals acting liberally again...