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schalliol · Dec 19, 2002, 06:54 AM

As best as I can see here, no one has posted this, so here goes:

In OS X I'm looking for a way to control the menus fully with a keyboard. I'm not a windoze advocate, but I do like one thing that you can do with windoze that you can't do with Mac OS X (3rd party did it in 9).
_
For example, in windoze you can "ALT" up to the menus and select menu items with the letters of the menu item that are underlined. _I was wondering if there was any way that one can do something similar with the Mac OS. The current "Full Keyboard Access" forces the control Fkeys to do this.

Here's an example (and reason why without this Excel sucks on the Mac). Let's say I'm in Excel and I wish to copy and paste-special with formats on an adjacent cell.
Mac: Command-C -> Move to Cell -> Edit Menu-Paste Special...->T (for formats)->Return
Windows: Ctrl-C -> Move to Cell ->Alt-E-S-T-Return
I can do this in one second in windows, substantially longer on the Mac. And those of us who have used Excel a ton have memorized these commands (yes, they really are faster!!). In fact there are companies where people use excel all the time and they literally take the mouse away during training. It sounds silly, but these people are incredibly fast at Excel after this.

So, does anyone know a way to make this work in X? Third-Party? Thanks!!

schalliol · Dec 21, 2002, 01:34 AM

No one has any idea on this?

Sebastien · Dec 21, 2002, 01:55 AM

did you try looking at the Universal Access options; don't know if there's an answer for what you're looking for, but if there is, it would be there.

You can always *tell* the computer which menus you want to select, something no Winblowz box can do

Eddies in the aether · Dec 21, 2002, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by schalliol:
No one has any idea on this?

I agree with your observation, windows keyboard access is a lot faster than the macs full keyboard access (I think of it as the difference between accessing a file on a tape verses a hard drive).

My only solution has been to use Quickeys to enable even more keyboard shortcuts than those provided by the program.

I assume you know that you can assign keyboard shortcuts from within Excel? Not as good as what you want but getting there.

schalliol · Dec 21, 2002, 04:52 PM

Thanks for those responses. I do know you can map specific keys in Excel. Too bad there's no way to do what we're looking for. Does anyone know of a 3rd party solution? The univ. access does not work for this functionality.

khufuu · Dec 21, 2002, 07:18 PM

This is still my single biggest beef with Mac OS. Windows has done a far better job on this.

whatever7 · Dec 22, 2002, 01:49 PM

In my Mac OSX missing manual book, page 497, it mention a way to remap hotkeys. I have not try it but maybe you can dig up a online help link or something.

In terminal, type

defaults write com.apple.Mail NSUserKeyEquivalents '{"Activity Viewer"="@a";}'

1. replace Mail with the name of the app, it mentioned cocoa program. I don't know if excel is a cocoa program

2. Replace activity viewer with the wording of the command on your program

3. replace @a with your prefer hotkey. @ is the command key, $ is the Shift key, ~ is the option key, and ^ is the cpntrol key. You can combine special keys too.

I hope it works for every program, cause remapable hotkey is the reason I use Freehand instead of Illustrator. Try it.

snerdini · Dec 22, 2002, 01:53 PM

While we're on the subject, one part of full keyboard access that Windows completely fails (and has to be one of the worst UI decisions in history) is the ****ing ALT key. I can't tell you how many times I've accidentally hit that key and all the keystrokes I enter just result in an annoying 'ding'. It really makes me want to chuck my machine out a 400-story window (no pun intended

)

Wevah · Dec 22, 2002, 01:54 PM

Excel is not a Cocoa program. :/

schalliol · May 29, 2003, 05:32 PM

Bump.

Anyone have more thoughts on this?

In OS X they could make it an option like the full keyboard menu access as listed in there, off by default. Then no one (cough cough) would get mad about accidentally hitting the key.

Adam Betts · May 29, 2003, 09:32 PM

It's possible to access the menu with only keyboard

Click CTRL-F2 to open Apple menu then you can move to any direction with arrow keys.

CTRL-F3 will allow you to access the dock with only keyboard

alex_kac · May 29, 2003, 10:48 PM

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
It's possible to access the menu with only keyboard

Click CTRL-F2 to open Apple menu then you can move to any direction with arrow keys.

CTRL-F3 will allow you to access the dock with only keyboard

Yes, but if say you have a menubar with lots of menus, its very slow to open the apple menu and then arrow over to the menu I need and then arrow down.

It would be far better to press a key or key combo - press a letter to get straight to the menu, then another letter to get straight to the menu item.

schalliol · May 29, 2003, 11:21 PM

Thanks Alex, that's exactly right. People, please look at my example. This is for everyday people, not just people who can't use a mouse...

clarkgoble · May 30, 2003, 01:20 AM

Consider iKey as well.

http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/11485

Basically the same as Quickkeys but a lot cheaper.

Under XP I use the shortcut approach to the menus all the time. I don't know why but for some reason I just don't do that in OSX. I think there is some subtle different in how the UI of the applications tends to be arranged.

For instance in Windows I'm always doing alt-F alt-S but in OSX it's always cmd-S.

The only time I've been bugged by menus in OSX is when there is no shortcut key. For instance I use blockquotes a lot in my HTML for indenting and GoLive has no shortcut for those commands. So I added one with iKey. Works great (although not as well as Quickeys back in MacOS)

acollins · May 30, 2003, 02:47 AM

Have you looked at Unsanity? This is a 3rd party option that allows you to assign a keyboard short-cut to any menu item.

I have not personally used it, but it seems to fit the bill for what you need. I believe that it works for both Carbon/Cocoa apps, although it does mention a few applications that don't work.

I'd be interested to hear your experience, if you decide to try this out.

Good luck.

schalliol · May 30, 2003, 03:18 AM

Thanks folks. These are interesting and I've tried them out. Unfortunately they don't seem to do what I would like them to, but they are useful anyway!

schalliol · Aug 28, 2003, 06:10 PM

bump . . . bump . . . bump . . . bump . . . bump . . . bump ... bump...bump...bump..bump..bump..bump..bump..buMP.BUMP.BUMP.BUMP.BUMP.BUMP.BUMPBUMPBUMP�

Ok, so no luck in the past, I'm wondering if anyone is aware of changes in this issue or whether Panther might have this capability. Sorry for the bump.

thePurpleGiant · Aug 28, 2003, 06:20 PM

Hate to break it to you guys, but it isn't quite as easy as just switching on a utility program. When programming for Windows, you have to specify which letters activate the menus, so there are no overlaps.

If a program were suddenly to appear on the Mac, how would it know if 'M' meant the 'Mailbox' menu or the 'Message' menu?

So this would probably require Apple to implement it system wide, so programmers would update their apps to make use of this.

...and can you imagine Apple liking the ugly underlines under letters? Perhaps if they did it, it would be off by default.

schalliol · Aug 28, 2003, 06:25 PM

I do realize that it's not easy, but lots of things are done that aren't easy. In classic, I know there was one at one point. I would hope that Apple would make this an option in Panther or later, but a shareware/commercial app could go down the list to determine which ones were necessary to choose. One example would be if you had under the Edit Menu Copy, Paste, Paste Special. The utility could just run a recursive mode to highlight the c in copy the p in paste and the a in paste special.

lookmark · 10:34 PM

I can't believe no one's mentioned this so far (did I miss it?), but *much* better full keyboard access is being implemented in Panther, including:

- built-in customizable keyboard shortcuts, for basic hot keys and customizing any menu command in applications (including changing current ones)

and

- much better keyboard navigation, including the ability to access a menu item by hitting a F2 (or control-M, or a user-defined key), then the letter of the menu, and then the letter of the menu item. For menu item names that begin with the same letter, you just need to type the first several letters in brisk sequence, e.g. "P" for Page Setup, "Pr" for Print.

I hear Full Keyboard Access is now turned on by default as well. Who knows, this could change.

Not 100% as keyboard-friendly as those ugly little underlines in Windows, but IMO very nicely thought-out and pretty darn close.

schalliol · Aug 28, 2003, 11:59 PM

This sounds like a good step!

tritonus · Aug 29, 2003, 02:30 AM

Originally posted by schalliol:
As best as I can see here, no one has posted this, so here goes:

In OS X I'm looking for a way to control the menus fully with a keyboard. I'm not a windoze advocate, but I do like one thing that you can do with windoze that you can't do with Mac OS X (3rd party did it in 9).
_
For example, in windoze you can "ALT" up to the menus and select menu items with the letters of the menu item that are underlined. _I was wondering if there was any way that one can do something similar with the Mac OS. The current "Full Keyboard Access" forces the control Fkeys to do this.

Here's an example (and reason why without this Excel sucks on the Mac). Let's say I'm in Excel and I wish to copy and paste-special with formats on an adjacent cell.
Mac: Command-C -> Move to Cell -> Edit Menu-Paste Special...->T (for formats)->Return
Windows: Ctrl-C -> Move to Cell ->Alt-E-S-T-Return
I can do this in one second in windows, substantially longer on the Mac. And those of us who have used Excel a ton have memorized these commands (yes, they really are faster!!). In fact there are companies where people use excel all the time and they literally take the mouse away during training. It sounds silly, but these people are incredibly fast at Excel after this.

So, does anyone know a way to make this work in X? Third-Party? Thanks!!

Being a switcher, I kind of miss that, too.

tritonus · Aug 29, 2003, 02:31 AM

Originally posted by lookmark:
I can't believe no one's mentioned this so far (did I miss it?), but *much* better full keyboard access is being implemented in Panther, including:

- built-in customizable keyboard shortcuts, for basic hot keys and customizing any menu command in applications (including changing current ones)

and

- much better keyboard navigation, including the ability to access a menu item by hitting a F2 (or control-M, or a user-defined key), then the letter of the menu, and then the letter of the menu item. For menu item names that begin with the same letter, you just need to type the first several letters in brisk sequence, e.g. "P" for Page Setup, "Pr" for Print.

I hear Full Keyboard Access is now turned on by default as well. Who knows, this could change.

Not 100% as keyboard-friendly as those ugly little underlines in Windows, but IMO very nicely thought-out and pretty darn close.

That sounds good. Thanks for bringing that in.

schalliol · Mar 10, 2004, 03:44 AM

bump....

It's still not even close.

lookmark · Mar 11, 2004, 02:56 AM

Yeah, still needs work.

Pet peeve: hitting the "focus on menu bar" key combo (whatever you've chosen) selects the Apple menu, and you can't keyboard to File/Edit/etc, except using arrow keys. Not. Very. Useful.

You still looking for Excel commands? I've found that, aside from being somewhat initially labor intensive, making your own keyboard shortcuts for oft-used menu items works pretty well.

CharlesS · Mar 11, 2004, 03:12 AM

Hmm, in Office 98, the F10 key actually used to bring up the menu outlines, just like in Windows. Doesn't seem to still be there in v.X, though...

schalliol · Mar 11, 2004, 03:26 AM

Originally posted by lookmark:
Yeah, still needs work.

Amen! It doesn't have to be on by default, but it would really be nice to have. I think people would be surprised how nice it is if they fully learned how to do it.

You still looking for Excel commands? I've found that, aside from being somewhat initially labor intensive, making your own keyboard shortcuts for oft-used menu items works pretty well.

I suppose I can do that, but it's really difficult with all of them I would want and how many are already there. The menu system makes sense at least, not option j for highlight a certain kind of cell for example. I hope someone or Apple can make this happen. I've got my wallet open!!

Link · Mar 11, 2004, 03:57 AM

You can always change, btw the key combination for the menubar. I set mine to F4 for now

schalliol · Mar 11, 2004, 04:01 AM

Yeah, I know, but it's a <b>far</b> cry from full keyboard access.

lookmark · Mar 11, 2004, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by schalliol:
Amen! It doesn't have to be on by default, but it would really be nice to have. I think people would be surprised how nice it is if they fully learned how to do it.

I suppose I can do that, but it's really difficult with all of them I would want and how many are already there. The menu system makes sense at least, not option j for highlight a certain kind of cell for example. I hope someone or Apple can make this happen. I've got my wallet open!!

Yup, I hear you.

Until Apple improves FKA further, though, it may be interesting -- just as a personal experiment -- to set aside some time to observe your behavior and see what your most often used commands actually are.

IME, there tend to be just a handful, which can be easily mapped... using whatever mental model you wish.

schalliol · Mar 11, 2004, 01:30 PM

I agree on most counts, but the Windows implementation is great because it allows a tree structure supported by the menus. I don't think that option on its own on Macs does anything so this could double as something like the ALT key. In that case Option E would always take you to the edit commands. Sure you could remember command-c is copy, but if you wanted delete you could just very quickly do option-e-d. I understand you can map something to that, but that's only a portion of commands that you'd realistically be able to do that with. Often it might be nice for people to remember some of these commands if they're doing a repetitive task that they normally don't do, they'd probably figure out this as a good way to do it. then they forget option-e-s-g-e-etc. and if they need it again, they might remember it, but they could learn a new one if needed.

schalliol · Jul 21, 2004, 11:13 PM

>4 Months after the last post and a year and a half after the first, still no luck in getting FULL keyboard menu access. Here's a plea to Apple (I have made the suggestion) and software developers, please someone develop this, I'd be more than happy to pay for it. Maybe I've gotten lucky and there's a 3rd party utility now available or perhaps it's in the plan for a future Tiger beta or full release...

CubeWannaB · Jul 22, 2004, 12:12 PM

After four months my only surprise is that you still think using your keyboard to access menus is a good idea. What is your problem with the mouse?

Research has shown that mouse naigvation is faster than keyboard navigation even though users will repeatedly state the opposite.

http://asktog.com/TOI/toi06KeyboardVMouse1.html

We�ve done a cool $50 million of R & D on the Apple Human Interface. We discovered, among other things, two pertinent facts:

Test subjects consistently report that keyboarding is faster than mousing.
The stopwatch consistently proves mousing is faster than keyboarding.

schalliol · Jul 22, 2004, 06:34 PM

Wow, that's just plain buillshit. I can't imagine how with a mouse you could possible execute paste-special formulas in less than 1/2 second. This is not the only application. It's simply faster, but only if you know what you're doing and you know your keyboard. Notice how launch bar is WILDLY popular, that's an indication that your statement is incorrect, regarless of what some research says. You tell me how you could possible be faster at these kinds of tasks with a mouse. I'd never suggest that you remove the mouse, as the mouse is great, but just as you wouldn't use a mouse for an on-screen keyboard over a physical one, there are different applications for different input methods.

Originally posted by CubeWannaB:
After four months my only surprise is that you still think using your keyboard to access menus is a good idea. What is your problem with the mouse?

Research has shown that mouse naigvation is faster than keyboard navigation even though users will repeatedly state the opposite.

http://asktog.com/TOI/toi06KeyboardVMouse1.html

CubeWannaB · Jul 22, 2004, 11:27 PM

You mearly perceive your keyboard navigation to be faster. The popularity of keyboard-based navigation is only a testament to its popularity, not its actual usefulness. Much like how Windows is the most popular OS.

Hook a camcorder up over your shoulder and actually time yourself. You will be amazed.

Appleman · Jul 23, 2004, 03:20 AM

I'm always surprised to see Windows users use their mouse all the time, and do not use keyboard at all, not even for control-copy-paste as a simple example.
Neither do they use the alt keyto access menus.

In OS X you can even use the numpad to act as your mouse, handy when your mouse is broken (not more than that actually).

In Panther Universal Access have been better and better. Just play around with it.
Then, we have sound as the Mac is speaking to you if necessary, we have speech as to command the Mac to do certain things. It's not that good, but it works.

And we do have all the "command - character" options which are very often overlooked.
There once was a thread about Universal Access, and what freaking things you could do with your keyboard (f.i. turning the colors of your screen into black & white). All these examples were coming from keyboard key-combinations which are there in System Preferences -> Universal Access.

It's worth have a look at it.

Panther Tricks

schalliol · Jul 23, 2004, 09:59 AM

Appleman, thanks for the post. Yes, there certainly are some good things you can do with universal access, though it really is designed for people with disabilites and isn't fully functional. Example, while I guess it's cool that you can move the mouse with the keyboard, that's way more difficult to use to access features in a number of programs. Additionally, there are some keyboard commands to pull down the menus in the finder, it's only finder-wide and isn't possible in other applications.

jbruner · Jul 23, 2004, 01:48 PM

Maybe I am missing the point, but if you want key commands to do specific tasks, you could at least set up shortcuts manually with Unsanity's Menu Master

http://www.unsanity.com/haxies/menumaster

Sure it would be nice if the keys were premapped and standard but this could help with your primary machine. Hope this helps.

Joel

Jul 23, 2004, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by schalliol:
Wow, that's just plain buillshit. I can't imagine how with a mouse you could possible execute paste-special formulas in less than 1/2 second. This is not the only application. It's simply faster, but only if you know what you're doing and you know your keyboard. Notice how launch bar is WILDLY popular, that's an indication that your statement is incorrect, regarless of what some research says. You tell me how you could possible be faster at these kinds of tasks with a mouse. I'd never suggest that you remove the mouse, as the mouse is great, but just as you wouldn't use a mouse for an on-screen keyboard over a physical one, there are different applications for different input methods.

Hmmm... you've proved that users will claim it is faster. But until you time yourself, you don't really know. Also, time yourself for a variety of menu tasks, not just one. Typically the user doesn't realize the time taken to remember which keystroke for which tasks. They only remember the time taken to actually press the key. That's one of the reasons Apple only puts keystrokes for the popular commands. If they do it for all commands, the user slows down because they have to remember which keystroke activates which command.

TimBray · Jul 23, 2004, 01:55 PM

That Tog study is deeply flawed. Go read it carefully. They talk about surveying across a wide class of menu operations - no details about what they were. Well across a wide range, of course, the mouse wins every time. For the special most-common case where you know where you want to go and which menu it's on, it is simply not believable that the mouse is faster than the keyboard.

Of course Apple thinks they don't have to think about it, they wave the Tog study and claim the debate is over.

CubeWannaB · Jul 23, 2004, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by TimBray:
That Tog study is deeply flawed. Go read it carefully.

Don't just read it, try it. You'll find that keyboard combinations you are more familiar with and thus faster at you will also be faster with the mouse.

The exception isn't a user's familiarity with a program or specific keystroke, but keyboard shortcuts that don't require a modifier key. These seem to be much faster that other keyboard shortcuts.

You can verify this by watching someone skilled play a first person shooter or use photoshop since both make extensive use of single-key controls.

HiFiGuy · Jul 23, 2004, 05:06 PM

What happens if you paste with a "command-shift-v"?

-Richard

Cf · Jul 23, 2004, 07:05 PM

this was just the first thought that popped into my head after reading the initial post, so take what you want from it. just a reminder that apple is a competitor with microsoft and even though certain parts of office in the past have shown to be much better in mac releases than for windows, i always consider the notion that microsoft leaves things out of the mac version or changes things just to bug a mac user (switcher and bi users if you will) so much that they miss the windows equivalent.

as far as excel goes, i've always hated it. i laugh when i read criticism about odd key commands on the mac for startup when excel on its own has some whoppers.

i do hope you find a solution, however. maybe it's in another app. alternatives are out there. i just hope your reasoning against going alt isn't because "it's not like excel."

Frederico · Jul 23, 2004, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by CubeWannaB:
Don't just read it, try it. You'll find that keyboard combinations you are more familiar with and thus faster at you will also be faster with the mouse.

CubeWannaBe, I'm afraid I'm also going to holler ******** at both you and Tog -- with all due respect.

I happen to type 120WPM, and I happen to use the keyboard almost exclusively. In fact, I teach productivity classes to people in which we concentrate on using only keystrokes. I absofreakinlutely guaranpromistee you that *ANY HUMAN BEING* with average dexterity and reasonable short and long term memory, both motor and conceptual, can improve their productivity in any decent word processor or data base or spread sheet application that they use day in and day out. Similar results are had in most graphics, audio and video apps, especially those that have user-configurable keystrokes. And, yes, we test people who are already at least proficient, if not expert in any given app with both before, using their combined, primarily mouse-centric actions, and after intensive exercises designed to commit keystrokes to motor and conceptual memory. The only people who fail are those who fail to show up for each class and take it seriously -- and those folks are rare.

Jumpin' Jesus in a skirt; I can't begin to imagine not using keystrokes and macros while writing articles in Word and TeX apps; God help me, too, if I had to mouse around in Excel all day, I'd never get any real work done.

If nothing else, I pray you're not going to deny that using a keyboard is vastly more ergonomic and less stressful for most people over heavy mouse use. I know tons of people with upper back and neck injuries that, if not caused by, are exacerbated by intensive mouse use. those folks are usually at least highly benefited by switching to trackballs, and even more so by learning to keystroke where they would otherwise mouse.

For the original poster, I'm still confused as to why Menu Master has not resolved your problems in Excel; I personally use Keyboard Maestro to do most of the same, but MM has also proven useful when a common command is too many menus and key-navigations south.

Cheers

schalliol · Jul 23, 2004, 07:20 PM

It's not faster with the mouse. I did set office 2004 special to command shift v, which is not by default. I can command-shift-v and then press f and hit return faster than with a mouse. I HAVE TRIED IT many times, which is the whole freakin' reason I made this post a year and a half ago. It's not faster!!

Frederico · Jul 23, 2004, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by schalliol:
It's not faster with the mouse. I did set office 2004 special to command shift v, which is not by default. I can command-shift-v and then press f and hit return faster than with a mouse. I HAVE TRIED IT many times, which is the whole freakin' reason I made this post a year and a half ago. It's not faster!!

schalliol, I just reread your original post more carefully, and while the solution I present works just fine as you also outlined above, I absolutely take your point that, while ugly to many of us Mac users, there is an absolute usefulness and consistency in Windows in that particular behavior, and, other than the ugly appearance it presents in menus, I agree that it is vastly more useful the way it is implemented on that side -- especially if your mouse is broken, missing, dirty, or you're just stuck with a crappy laptop track pad.

Seems to me there was a utility awhile back that did exactly what you're asking for; trouble is, I think it was last updated under OS 8.5 or so.

Take another look at Keyboard Maestro though; with its ability to parse locational mouse clicks, along with customizable menu items, I think you could fairly effectively replicate the Windows Alt-Navigate-Action model.

schalliol · Jul 23, 2004, 07:45 PM

Thanks very much and for your correcting what was going on here. I'll certainly look into the application you mentioned!!

John G. Stillmank · Jul 24, 2004, 12:24 AM

Well if Windows is faster in this one area due to full keyboard access to the menu, that gives you all the time you need to troubleshoot the many other areas of Windows that give users headaches! Way to go Microsoft!

schalliol · Jul 24, 2004, 12:39 AM

Originally posted by John G. Stillmank:
Well if Windows is faster in this one area due to full keyboard access to the menu, that gives you all the time you need to troubleshoot the many other areas of Windows that give users headaches! Way to go Microsoft!

What a silly line of thinking. Yes, of course Macs are better overall, but that doesn't mean that all features of other systems are useless.

CubeWannaB · Jul 24, 2004, 02:27 AM

Originally posted by Frederico:
I happen to type 120WPM, and I happen to use the keyboard almost exclusively.

So you're not biased. Excellent.

At the least the controversy over mousing versus keyboarding has drawn enough attention to this thread for Schalliol's problem to be solved, albiet with a third-party application.

I wonder, even in windows, isn't it a sign of weakness in the UI to have to rely on menu navigation to access such a frequently used function?