[John G. Stillmank]

Funny how in all the hoopla over the admittedly gorgeous new iPods there hasn't been much mention or complaint of the lack of Firewire on them in the press.

[nuggetman]

probably because everyone has usb2 at this point

[MaxPower2k3]

Originally Posted by nuggetman

probably because everyone has usb2 at this point

Far from the truth. Apple's own computers were the last machines in the computing world to get USB2, and yet their own devices now don't support the high-speed connection every mac made in the last 5 years has had. I can understand leaving it out of the nano as a feature differentiation from the big iPod, but leaving firewire out of the iPod line altogether is irksome... I don't think it will convince any significant number of people to upgrade, it'll just give a lot of people a reason not to buy an iPod.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by MaxPower2k3

Far from the truth. Apple's own computers were the last machines in the computing world to get USB2, and yet their own devices now don't support the high-speed connection every mac made in the last 5 years has had. I can understand leaving it out of the nano as a feature differentiation from the big iPod, but leaving firewire out of the iPod line altogether is irksome... I don't think it will convince any significant number of people to upgrade, it'll just give a lot of people a reason not to buy an iPod.

A USB2 card is about the same price as the Firewire iPod cable was. The Macs with no expansion ports have had USB2 since September 2003 (iMac) or April 2004 (eMac),

This isn't Apples only product that doesn't function at maximum performance with a recent Mac. Some new Macs today don't even support Core Image.

[ShotgunEd]

This firewire-less thing leaves a lot of laptop owners in the lurch.

I own a whole load of macs, my iBook is however my most recent. It runs 10.4, it is fast enough for my needs at present, but i can't hook up the latest iPod without using dirt slow usb 1.

That sucks.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

They all got it out of their system with the Nano.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by ShotgunEd

This firewire-less thing leaves a lot of laptop owners in the lurch.

I own a whole load of macs, my iBook is however my most recent. It runs 10.4, it is fast enough for my needs at present, but i can't hook up the latest iPod without using dirt slow usb 1.

That sucks.

You could buy a $30 USB card to go with that $400 iPod.

Originally Posted by nuggetman

probably because everyone has usb2 at this point

As a minor aside, everyone with USB has USB 2.0. About 2 years ago the USB Forum decreed that all USB is USB 2.0. Devices formerly known as USB 1.x are now USB 2.0 full-speed and the faster standard is now USB 2.0 hi-speed. They claim this was to eliminate compatability confusion in the market, but I think it has created more performance confusion than it has eliminated compatability confusion. (Link)

[icruise]

Originally Posted by mduell

You could buy a $30 USB card to go with that $400 iPod.

Yeah, it'll look real pretty sitting next to his iBook...

As a minor aside, everyone with USB has USB 2.0. About 2 years ago the USB Forum decreed that all USB is USB 2.0. Devices formerly known as USB 1.x are now USB 2.0 full-speed and the faster standard is now USB 2.0 hi-speed. They claim this was to eliminate compatability confusion in the market, but I think it has created more performance confusion than it has eliminated compatability confusion. (Link)

This isn't news to me, but that's got to be the dumbest naming convention ever. If I had to guess, I'd say "full speed" was faster than "high speed".

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Icruise

Yeah, it'll look real pretty sitting next to his iBook...

heck I didn't even know iBooks had PC card slots.

[icruise]

Hence the humor...

[ghporter]

Uh...all of the G4 iBooks have two USB ports anyway, don't they? And since "early 2004" as Apple puts it, they've had USB 2.0 ports (our January '04 iBook has USB 2.0), so the speed isn't an issue. And iBooks from the begining have had USB, albeit version 1.1. So who would need anything extra to allow their iBook to connect to a USB device?

On the other hand, I can find PCI USB cards for $10, and if I look hard I can often find them with Mac drivers, so a desktop computer (at least back to the Blue and White Power Mac G3) only needs a few minutes' worth of fiddling to be USB capable, even if it didn't have USB to start with.

Apple has never been overly worried about backward compatibility with older machines. Isn't the whole thrust to move people to more capable machines anyway? So a five year old computer that doesn't have a USB port to support a brand new iPod is a problem for the user, but only a marginal problem, at least in Apple's eyes.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Icruise

Yeah, it'll look real pretty sitting next to his iBook...

What kind of gimped laptop doesn't have a PCMCIA card slot!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGHHH Apple.

</rant>
*hides*

[icruise]

Originally Posted by ghporter

Uh...all of the G4 iBooks have two USB ports anyway, don't they? And since "early 2004" as Apple puts it, they've had USB 2.0 ports (our January '04 iBook has USB 2.0), so the speed isn't an issue. And iBooks from the begining have had USB, albeit version 1.1. So who would need anything extra to allow their iBook to connect to a USB device?

The point is that iBooks with USB 1.1 can't get full use out of the iPods, since the transfer speed is so slow AND they can't add a USB 2 interface like desktops or many PowerBooks can. Perhaps I was too subtle in making my point above. Someone was implying that it was stupid not to spend an additional $30 on a USB2 card when you're already spending $399 on an iPod, but the point is that iBook, iMac, and 12" Powerbook users without USB 2 don't have ANY option to add it even if they want to.

[ghporter]

Since USB 1.1 WILL charge an iPod, is there really a major problem in keeping the thing plugged in longer so the slower connection will do its thing? I'm really interested, as my Dell laptop is also USB 1.1 only, and except for Windows telling me all my fast USB devices "can operate faster" and then pointing out that all the ports on the computer are slow, I don't notice much of a difference speedwise.

[icruise]

You're saying that you don't notice a difference between USB 1 and 2 in terms of speed?

[chabig]

Originally Posted by Icruise

You're saying that you don't notice a difference between USB 1 and 2 in terms of speed?

Of course it's slower, but you don't have to sit there and wait while the data transfer takes place. Plug it in and walk away for a while.

[lamewing]

Look, worst case senario...you have to wait about 15 mins/GB of music transfer. A 60GB iPod would take 15 hours to fill. This would be a one-time situation in most cases. Even if you have USB 1.1, you could fill it in two nights while you sleep.

By the gods. Does no one have any patience anymore. I grew up making copies of music on cassette and later minidisc. In both cases, it was realtime and I survived. It is really humorous to see so many folks who cannot simply wait for something once in a while...

[icruise]

Now as I've said before, I have USB 2, so it's not like I'm pissed off for myself. This is a philosophical discussion. Nothing we say is going to change the fact that the new iPods don't have firewire. But I find it disturbing that Apple dropped firewire so soon when they purposely delayed the adoption of USB 2 to encourage the use of firewire. This decision resulted in a large number of machines with no USB 2 and no possibility of adding it.

And I find it even more disturbing that some people are so quick to say that it doesn't matter. Sure, you can work around it. You can sync overnight or go off for half an hour while it adds your new music and videos. But why should you have to? That's the real question here.

Lamewing -- you're the guy who said using a small battery in the nano was a plot by Apple to make them wear out earlier, forcing us to buy new players. And yet you see nothing wrong with this apparent attempt to force people to upgrade to new Macs?

[powerbook911]

I'm going to be out of USB ports now. Of course, I won't be using firewire for anything.

[Appleman]

Originally Posted by lamewing

Look, worst case senario...you have to wait about 15 mins/GB of music transfer. A 60GB iPod would take 15 hours to fill. This would be a one-time situation in most cases. Even if you have USB 1.1, you could fill it in two nights while you sleep.

By the gods. Does no one have any patience anymore. I grew up making copies of music on cassette and later minidisc. In both cases, it was realtime and I survived. It is really humorous to see so many folks who cannot simply wait for something once in a while...

[JoshuaZ]

Blah, not an issue. They did it because of the PC market. Though I wish that in general they would have added USB 2.0 to their computers sooner.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Icruise

You're saying that you don't notice a difference between USB 1 and 2 in terms of speed?

Not at all. I'm saying that even if I had to wait a while longer, I'm sitting at the computer for long enough at each session that it's not a problem to wait a while longer for a 1.1 connection to do its thing. Note that my iPod gets its updates from my desktop which has USB 2.0, so I'm not discussing iPod performance, just data transfer performance in general.

JoshuaZ, I wouldn't say they switched to USB strictly for the PC market. From what I see, firewire seems to be moving toward specialized uses, like digital video, while USB is getting better and better at handling generic data transfers. And it looks like firewire chipsets (particularly high-speed firewire) are more expensive than USB chipsets (a result of higher market demand?), so going for more genrealized, less expensive implementations makes a sort of sense.

[zeebe]

Originally Posted by ghporter

Uh...all of the G4 iBooks have two USB ports anyway, don't they? And since "early 2004" as Apple puts it, they've had USB 2.0 ports (our January '04 iBook has USB 2.0), so the speed isn't an issue. And iBooks from the begining have had USB, albeit version 1.1. So who would need anything extra to allow their iBook to connect to a USB device?

On the other hand, I can find PCI USB cards for $10, and if I look hard I can often find them with Mac drivers, so a desktop computer (at least back to the Blue and White Power Mac G3) only needs a few minutes' worth of fiddling to be USB capable, even if it didn't have USB to start with.

Apple has never been overly worried about backward compatibility with older machines. Isn't the whole thrust to move people to more capable machines anyway? So a five year old computer that doesn't have a USB port to support a brand new iPod is a problem for the user, but only a marginal problem, at least in Apple's eyes.

You are wrong about the desktop computers needing a PCI usb card. I would like you to tell me how to put it in my 1GHz G4 iMac!?! This really sucks as I was going to get a new iPod, now I have to think really hard if I want one.

Originally Posted by lamewing

Look, worst case senario...you have to wait about 15 mins/GB of music transfer. A 60GB iPod would take 15 hours to fill. This would be a one-time situation in most cases. Even if you have USB 1.1, you could fill it in two nights while you sleep.

By the gods. Does no one have any patience anymore. I grew up making copies of music on cassette and later minidisc. In both cases, it was realtime and I survived. It is really humorous to see so many folks who cannot simply wait for something once in a while...

I understand the idea of having patience, trust me, I teach students in grades K-8 computers. I also have two children of my own. The problem is, Apple HAD it in there, how hard would it have been to keep it? Unless this is what they AXED to make it thinner. If so, I would keep the thickness.

[Naz]

is my 1.33 GHz 17" powerbook using USB 2?

[I was David B.]

With firewire the coolest feature of the iPod is gone: using it as a backup medium and boot your mac from the iPod.

Anyone imagine the faces of pc geeks seeing this?

[zeebe]

I was looking for information on my computer too!!! Does anyone know if the 17" 1GHz G4 iMac has USB 2?
THanks


By the way, Naz, I love your art!!!

[lamewing]

Originally Posted by I was David B.

With firewire the coolest feature of the iPod is gone: using it as a backup medium and boot your mac from the iPod.

Anyone imagine the faces of pc geeks seeing this?

Overall, speed-wise I don't care about dropping the firewire. BUT, you make a valid point. Now Mac folks cannot boot from the iPod in an emergency. I have always been envious of that feature on the Mac side of the fence.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by I was David B.

With firewire the coolest feature of the iPod is gone: using it as a backup medium and boot your mac from the iPod.

Anyone imagine the faces of pc geeks seeing this?

I'm sure many of those PC geeks' faces are looking pretty smug, since them can boot from USB drives.

[Naz]

thanks Zeebe

[icruise]

I imagine that we will be able to boot from USB once the transition to Intel is made, but it does sort of leave us in the lurch until then. I've booted from my iPod in emergencies. It can be pretty useful.

[Appleman]

Originally Posted by Naz

is my 1.33 GHz 17" powerbook using USB 2?

Go to the Apple menu (left top of your screen) and click on "About this Mac" and then on "More info". There you can find all info about your Mac.

[zeebe]

Originally Posted by Appleman

Go to the Apple menu (left top of your screen) and click on "About this Mac" and then on "More info". There you can find all info about your Mac.

OK, here is a pic of my system profiler, the USB area:



Appleman, can you tell me what version of USB I have?


A little side note, I called my local Apple Store (Roseville, MN) and they told me my version of the G4 1GHz iMac had two versions, one with USB 1 and one with USB 2. The USB 2 version has the USB ports on the right side of the base and the USB 1 version has them on the left. If that is true, I have USB 2!!

But I am not sure if I believe them.

[Captain Obvious]

You have more info there than you need. The stuff about your mouse and keyboard isn't needed.

You need to show the top part.



If it does not say "Up to 480 Mb/Sec" you are SOL and do not have USB2

[ghporter]

Zeebe, checking Apple's Knowledge Base is a good idea. Here's what I found. Scroll almost all the way down for your 17" PB's data. It looks like it has USB 1.1 built in, but with a PC Card slot, you can just get a USB PC Card and have 2.0 with no problem.

PC geeks don't give a rat's behind about the lack of firewire on iPods-they don't know about or care about the various options for booting a Mac. Most of them don't care much about how they boot their own computers, the process of setting up a computer to boot from USB is a pain (that most of them don't bother with) and not all motherboards even support it.

Besides, when did Mac users ever worry about what PC users thought? Who cares? This is about Apple hardware changing (like that never happened before) and how Apple's users respond to it, not "my hardware is so much cooler than yours."

[zeebe]

Originally Posted by ghporter

Zeebe, checking Apple's Knowledge Base is a good idea. Here's what I found. Scroll almost all the way down for your 17" PB's data. It looks like it has USB 1.1 built in, but with a PC Card slot, you can just get a USB PC Card and have 2.0 with no problem.

PC geeks don't give a rat's behind about the lack of firewire on iPods-they don't know about or care about the various options for booting a Mac. Most of them don't care much about how they boot their own computers, the process of setting up a computer to boot from USB is a pain (that most of them don't bother with) and not all motherboards even support it.

Besides, when did Mac users ever worry about what PC users thought? Who cares? This is about Apple hardware changing (like that never happened before) and how Apple's users respond to it, not "my hardware is so much cooler than yours."

Thanks ghporter, looks like I am SOL as I have the first 1GHz model listed here so I only have USB 1 and there is no option for me to change it. Still not sure if I want a new iPod now.

[Eriamjh]

Originally Posted by I was David B.

With firewire the coolest feature of the iPod is gone: using it as a backup medium and boot your mac from the iPod.

Anyone imagine the faces of pc geeks seeing this?

According to this old Apple Doc, USB booting has been supported since AGP PMs and Slot-loading iMacs!

Has anyone actually tried it? perhaps it is the iPod that can't actually be used as a USB boot drive (like the mini).

[icruise]

I read elsewhere that it's only possible on OS 9.

[CharlesS]

I thought that USB booting was possible with USB 1.1 but not USB 2.0. My memory could be faulty, though. I do know that USB 2.0 definitely isn't bootable on the Mac nowadays.

[Appleman]

Originally Posted by ghporter

It looks like it has USB 1.1 built in, but with a PC Card slot, you can just get a USB PC Card and have 2.0 with no problem.

Zeebe says he has an iMac...so where are you going to stick this PC Card (formally known as PCMCIA) in???

[Appleman]

Originally Posted by zeebe

OK, here is a pic of my system profiler, the USB area:



Appleman, can you tell me what version of USB I have?

Seems you are out of luck: there is no mentioning of a high speed uSB bus, so only USB 1. But actually that will be fine, what does it matter if you have to wait some hours to fill your iPod? I don't fill my iPods every day, just add some CD's now and then, and for that USB 1 is more than sufficient. Get over it.

[ghporter]

Sorry Zeebe, I somehow got it in my head that you'd said you had a PowerBook... And Appleman is right, you are stuck. Sorry again.