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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > The Post Office - Mail-in-voting, electric vehicles, and booting DeJoy

The Post Office - Mail-in-voting, electric vehicles, and booting DeJoy (Page 5)
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subego
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Dec 30, 2023, 02:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I've seen the theory seriously uttered several times by people who would consider themselves in the left side of the political spectrum (actual left, not center-right U.S.-Democrat "left") that Western democracy is a failed experiment and we need a sort of "benign authoritarianism" to put us back on track.

It fucking terrifies me.
Sounds like the neo-reactionaries, but they’re pretty right-wing I guess.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Dec 30, 2023, 02:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Sounds like the neo-reactionaries, but they’re pretty right-wing I guess.
No, these people hold decidedly progressive views: ecological conservatism, green energy, science-based approach to life and society (including climate consensus and views of gender based on 20th-century science, etc.), equal rights, workers' rights, women's lib — basically all the achievements of modern civilisation of the past 150 years.

Edit: didn't even mention healthcare, because that's literally not a point of discussion anywhere in civilised countries outside of the United States.
     
subego
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Dec 30, 2023, 05:50 PM
 
Is this new, or just a flavor of communism?
     
christ
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Dec 30, 2023, 06:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
So, this principle should be given zero weight in your estimation? As in, zero is the only accurate weight?
No - it has a lot of weight. Too much weight. As I said, above, authoritarianism is a solution to a lot of things (civil disorder for one, but freedom of thought and expression are other things for which it is a very effective solution). But I don't want to live in a society in which authoritarianism is seen as the solution to any problem: authoritarianism is not a "pick and mix" thing: once you have an authoritarian regime, everything is authoritarian. Authoritarianism means that democracy has been superseded, and I would prefer that we not give up on it.
Chris. T.

"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
christ
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Dec 30, 2023, 06:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Is this new, or just a flavor of communism?
I would suggest that Russian (ex Soviet)/ Chinese/ Korean communism are very effective varieties of authoritarianism. So it would not be a huge surprise that those that support current communist regimes advocated for authoritarianism as the solution to all ills.
Chris. T.

"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
subego
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Dec 30, 2023, 06:45 PM
 
Never mind. Misunderstood something.
     
subego
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Dec 30, 2023, 08:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by christ View Post
No - it has a lot of weight. Too much weight. As I said, above, authoritarianism is a solution to a lot of things (civil disorder for one, but freedom of thought and expression are other things for which it is a very effective solution). But I don't want to live in a society in which authoritarianism is seen as the solution to any problem: authoritarianism is not a "pick and mix" thing: once you have an authoritarian regime, everything is authoritarian. Authoritarianism means that democracy has been superseded, and I would prefer that we not give up on it.
There’s a difference between what you’re describing and what I meant, which I’m sure is my fault.

I call it authoritarianism because I don’t want to soft-peddle it, but what I’m talking about has a matter of degree.
     
OreoCookie
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Dec 31, 2023, 05:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I've seen the theory seriously uttered several times by people who would consider themselves in the left side of the political spectrum (actual left, not center-right U.S.-Democrat "left") that Western democracy is a failed experiment and we need a sort of "benign authoritarianism" to put us back on track.

It fucking terrifies me.
Not sure what you have in mind here, but in my social circles (I have lots of Italian friends and live in Austria) the vibe is not to abolish democracy, but that the current incarnation of democracy in their countries is dysfunctional and in a state beyond repair. I haven't heard for calls of abandoning democracy outright. Obviously, my social circles are not representative samples, so take that for what you will. Still, that's a subtle difference, but an important one.

I don't deny that this makes some of them susceptible to populism and forms of authoritarianism. I would still contend that there are important differences in terms of general philosophy and degree. A very, very good (Italian) friend of mine used to be (not sure whether he still is as he lives in Chile now) of the 5 Star Movement, a populist leftwing movement.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
OreoCookie
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Dec 31, 2023, 05:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by christ View Post
I would suggest that Russian (ex Soviet)/ Chinese/ Korean communism are very effective varieties of authoritarianism. So it would not be a huge surprise that those that support current communist regimes advocated for authoritarianism as the solution to all ills.
Not to sidetrack the discussion, but one central pillars of communism (as in the theory by Marx and Engels) was (a different form of) democracy. E. g. companies were supposed to be organized democratically. IMHO the main argument against communism is that despite being tried many times in different countries and cultures, there was never a communist state that was organized based on democratic principles.

The two Koreas are good examples: the dictatorships in both are/were authoritarian, but General Park's South Korea was constantly exposed to democratic countries, which eventually led to South Korea becoming a democracy.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
subego
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Dec 31, 2023, 02:58 PM
 
Communism works great on paper unless the paper is in a history book.
     
Laminar  (op)
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Jan 1, 2024, 08:37 AM
 
Where does China fall into that?
     
subego
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Jan 3, 2024, 03:14 AM
 
Chinese communism has a terminal case of bourgeois.
     
 
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