[stevesnj]

This is great news!! Now we just need the Government to create incentives to the consumer and suppliers of electric cars and parts.

AP: SAN JOSE, California (AP) -- Which draws more juice from the electric grid, a big-screen plasma television or recharging a plug-in hybrid car?

The answer is the car. But the electricity draw by plasma televisions is easing the minds of utility company executives across the nation as they plan for what is likely to be a conversion of much of the country's vehicle fleet from gasoline to electricity in the coming years.

Rechargeable cars, industry officials say, consume about four times the electricity as plasma TVs.

But the industry already has dealt with increased electric demand from the millions of plasma TVs sold in recent years. Officials say that experience will help them deal with the vehicle fleet changeover.

So as long as the changeover from internal combustion engines to electric vehicles is somewhat gradual, they should be able to handle it in the same way, Mark Duvall, program manager for electric transportation, power delivery and distribution for the Electric Power Research Institute, said Tuesday.

"We've already added to the grid the equivalent of several years' production of plug-in hybrids," Duvall said at a conference on electric vehicles in San Jose. "The utilities, they stuck with it. They said, 'All right, that's what's happening. This is where the loads are going, and we're going to do this."'

Automakers, such as General Motors Corp. and Toyota Motor Corp. , are planning to bring rechargeable vehicles to the market as early as 2010. But speakers at the Plug-In 2008 conference say it will take much longer for them to arrive in mass numbers, due in part to a current lack of large-battery manufacturing capacity.

Auto and battery companies still are working on the lithium-ion battery technology needed for the cars, and on how to link the battery packs to the vehicles.

"We see the vehicle penetration levels coming at a rate that's manageable," said Efrain Ornelas, environmental technical supervisor with Pacific Gas and Electric Co. in San Francisco. "It's not like tomorrow the flood gates are going to open and 100,000 vehicles are going to come into San Francisco or something like that."

Instead, the vehicles will show up by the thousands throughout Northern California, he predicted. PG&E will be able to track their charging patterns and plan accordingly for the future, he said.

Utility officials say they already are coping with increased demand, especially during peak-use periods in the afternoon and early evening. But the rest of the day, most utilities have excess generating capacity that could be used to recharge cars.

But the preparation doesn't mean electric vehicles will be accommodated without problems and good planning, the officials say.

Since most electric cars will likely be charged during off-peak electric use times, utilities should have no problem generating enough electricity. But since people with the means to buy electric cars likely will live in the same areas, utilities worry about stress on their distribution systems, Ornelas said.

That means consumers will face a lot of choices about when and where they charge up their cars and how much they want to pay for the electricity.

The choice for consumers will come because utilities likely will raise rates to charge cars during peak use times, generally from around noon to 8 p.m., and lower them for charging during low-use hours, industry officials say.

In California, utilities already are installing meters that track use by time of day. PG&E charges 30 cents per kilowatt hour to charge an electric vehicle during peak hours, he said, but charges only 5 cents from midnight to 7 p.m.

Duvall said utilities still have to be wary that high gasoline prices could push sales of rechargeable electric vehicles well into the millions by 2020, because that could stress the system. Other possible problems include electric vehicles getting larger and requiring far more electricity for recharging, and demands from people that their vehicles be recharged quickly, drawing more electricity during peak times.

Also, companies such as the Campbell-based Coulomb Technologies, are starting to develop recharging stations for sale to parking lot operators, office buildings and cities, which will draw more electricity.

There's also talk of the cars storing electricity and sending it back to the power companies during peak times, but officials say that's a long way off.

Industry officials say they can manage the fleet changeover as the cars and the utilities each have computers in place to manage when the cars are recharged.

"From our perspective I think it's something that's really manageable," said Ornelas.

[Uncle Doof]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

Now we just need the Government to create incentives

If electric cars weren't so crap, you wouldn't need the government to create incentives.

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by Uncle Doof 

If electric cars weren't so crap, you wouldn't need the government to create incentives.

well no matter what stage we are in of development (should of been incentives 10 years ago) they (electric cars) are going to be very widespread withing the next 10 years. cant wait to buy one.

[el chupacabra]

they just need to stop subsidizing oil so we can see what crap it truly is
then put that money into battery R&D.

without those prices being artificially low we will have more incentive to move to alternatives.

[zombie punk]

Originally Posted by Uncle Doof 

If electric cars weren't so crap, you wouldn't need the government to create incentives.

The same is presumably true of oil?

[SirCastor]

1) This is not new. The grid was capable of handing electric cars years ago. (But thanks for posting the article.)

2) It is not the Government's responsibility to provide incentive in the market. It is the market's job to provide incentive. The Government should not be messing with markets. (I know this is an idealistic approach, but this is way outside of governmental responsibility.)

3) Battery technology is not the problem. Lithium Ion batteries pack enough to move a car 300 miles on a charge, They're lightweight, efficient, and safe. The technology is not an issue, the issue is rights, ownership, and production.

4) Electric cars will be no more widespread in 10 years than they are now. The auto industry has shown (numerous times) that they are unwilling to produce an electric vehicle. We will see lots of electric-hybrids, lots of alternative fuels (Internal combustion fules), but I seriously doubt we'll see any full electric production vehicles coming in runs of greater than 10,000. The producers don't want to do it, and the consumer market in general doesn't want to buy it. (This is changing, but here in the US of A, we're slow.)

I don't mean to be a spoilsport. I love the idea of the electric car. I don't think our government does.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by SirCastor 

4) Electric cars will be no more widespread in 10 years than they are now. The auto industry has shown (numerous times) that they are unwilling to produce an electric vehicle. We will see lots of electric-hybrids, lots of alternative fuels (Internal combustion fules), but I seriously doubt we'll see any full electric production vehicles coming in runs of greater than 10,000. The producers don't want to do it, and the consumer market in general doesn't want to buy it. (This is changing, but here in the US of A, we're slow.)

Electric cars are already more widespread than they were a year ago. Tesla is selling their Roadsters faster than they can build them, and there are at least 4 or 5 other EVs being prepared to be brought to market in the next few years.

[SirCastor]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

Electric cars are already more widespread than they were a year ago. Tesla is selling their Roadsters faster than they can build them, and there are at least 4 or 5 other EVs being prepared to be brought to market in the next few years.

There are only so many people who have $100,000 to spend on a car. I appreciate what Tesla is trying to do, and they have plans for a Sedan at $50,000, eventually hoping to bring it down to ~$30,000.
I would love to see these cars, but the past decade is littered with EVs that were planned for production and never made it for one reason or another.

The EV unfortunately has a poor history and a market that's unwilling to support it (at least in the US). The most promising Battery EV, the Chevy Volt (yes, I know it has an ICE) , has no release because the company is waiting for "a good battery".

I still expect the largest number of daily driven EVs will be home converted vehicles. Something I intend to do myself.
I've given up on the idea of a practical production EV. In every instance, a marketable EV has ended up on the list of failed ventures. I have high hopes for Tesla, but I won't be surprised if they remain a niche player at best.

[nonhuman]

The EV actually doesn't have the bad of a history... It was very popular in the 19th century...

EVs are, in my opinion, poised to really catch on. No, they aren't well suited for everyone in every situation. Yes, they're perfectly well suited for the majority of people in the majority of situations. For us, personally, an electric with only a 100 mile range would be sufficient (though sadly we have only street parking so, for now, no way to charge such a beast), the same is true of the vast majority of city dwellers, which means a very large percentage of the population at large.

The Aptera Typ-1 is also chomping at the bit, and will soon be available, and at a much lower price point than the the Tesla. It will also be available as a hybrid, rather than just an electric giving it much broader appeal. The only real criticism I've heard leveled against it is that people won't want to drive it because it looks weird. That will certainly stop some people, but I think a lot of people (myself included) will find it's atypical design refreshing (especially once they realize that it contributes in large part to it's incredible efficiency) not to mention nostalgically Jetsons-esque.

[Uncle Doof]

Oh, and for electric cars to work in Europe, you're pretty much going to have to demolish Europe and start again. I can see it all now - all those terraced houses with cables running out of the letterbox, across the pavement and into the car.

[nonhuman]

I'm ok with that.

[zombie punk]

Originally Posted by Uncle Doof 

Oh, and for electric cars to work in Europe, you're pretty much going to have to demolish Europe and start again. I can see it all now - all those terraced houses with cables running out of the letterbox, across the pavement and into the car.

The horror.

[Uncle Doof]

Well, hippies, I guess you didn't think about how much CO2 would be produced in making the infrastructure suitable for electric car charging.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Uncle Doof 

Well, hippies, I guess you didn't think about how much CO2 would be produced in making the infrastructure suitable for electric car charging.

And if you make that screwy smiley at me once more, ********, you and I are going to have problems.

Fortunately some of us aren't really concerned with CO2, and really are just opposed to waste in general and therefore all in favor of finding more efficient ways to use our resources*.

* At least until we start making proper use of solar power, by which I don't mean limited and fairly pointless terrestrial solar panels, but space based generation, which can generate power 24 hours a day, using microwave transmission to beam the power back to Earth. At this point we'll have essentially limitless power.

[paul w]

Originally Posted by Uncle Doof 

I guess you didn't think about how much CO2 would be produced in making the infrastructure suitable for electric car charging.

Like nonhuman said, it's not just about co2, and I'd be curious to see an actual proposed analysis comparing possible local eletrical based solutions to the current global web of oil intrigue.

We'd likely have to embrace nuclear energy on a larger scale, and obviously we're not quite ready to swap oil combustion of batteries.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Think of all the CO2 that could be saved just from not having to fight oil wars halfway around the globe every few years. Yeah, it's probably worth stringing a few more wires to reach energy independence, even from a hippie POV.

[Uncle Doof]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Think of all the CO2 that could be saved just from not having to fight oil wars halfway around the globe every few years. Yeah, it's probably worth stringing a few more wires to reach energy independence, even from a hippie POV.

But those wars ain't about energy independence. They're about palming your national debt off. How you gonna do that if you ain't buying oil?

[zombie punk]

Originally Posted by Uncle Doof 

But those wars ain't about energy independence. They're about palming your national debt off. How you gonna do that if you ain't buying oil?

What can you possibly mean by 'palming your national debt off'? The US is running up immense debt to fight oil wars.

[Uncle Doof]

Originally Posted by zombie punk 

What can you possibly mean by 'palming your national debt off'? The US is running up immense debt to fight oil wars.

Go read up about who's buying your national debt. Go read up about why oil sales are denominated in US dollars.

[zombie punk]

Well, the US national debt is held (in rough order of size) by govt accounts like social security and medicare with about half, then by foreign govts, the biggest being Japan, China and the UK. State and local govts, brokers and private pension funds hold a lot too - what's your point?

[Uncle Doof]

Now try the other bit of reading.

[zombie punk]

Originally Posted by Uncle Doof 

Now try the other bit of reading.

If you have a point, make it.

[besson3c]

So I'll bite... what is wrong with modern EVs?

[Chongo]

Range is still an issue for anything affordable. In the Phoenix MSA there are EV charging stations at gas stations, McDonald's et al from the GM EV1 test days.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Range is still an issue for anything affordable. In the Phoenix MSA there are EV charging stations at gas stations, McDonald's et al from the GM EV1 test days.

What is the range, and as of when? 300 miles per charge seems like plenty to me, esp. since technology exists that will give a battery 90% of its charge in 10 minutes.

[Chongo]

The ones I have seen in the $12-$15k range (ZENN, Dynasty IT) have a 40-50 mile range, and have a max speed of 25-30mph. The ones with 250-300 mile range are upwards of $30k. 40 miles is fine for most if it is strictly a b/f to work car. ZENN plans a to release a car with a 250 mile range capable of highway speeds( 78mph) with a price tag between $25 and 30K

[Uncle Skeleton]

edit: beaten

[SirCastor]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

What is the range, and as of when? 300 miles per charge seems like plenty to me, esp. since technology exists that will give a battery 90% of its charge in 10 minutes.

300 miles is possible, but expensive. You can get 300 miles out of a Li-Ion battery pack, but outside of mass production you're spending $30-$40K on that. A large portion of the Tesla's cost is it's battery pack.
NiMH is not in production because Chevron owns the patent on the large-format battery.

Technology exists that can charge these packs in 10 minutes, but as I understand it, that kind of charging the grid cannot currently handle. It's too much power all at once, especially for hundreds of vehicles.

There are, BTW, tons of NEVs (Neighborhood Electric Vehicles), that is EVs that have a top speed ~30mph. This is because the requirements to get approval from the National Highway something-blah-blah to sell a vehicle costs quite a bit. ~$40,000 and I think a minimum of 5 vehicles for crash testing.

NEVs and 4 wheeled vehicles don't fall into the same category for speed and vehicle-class reasons respectively.

[tie]

The Tesla sedan (est. $60,000 versus $100,000 for the current sports car) will only have a 200 mile range, as opposed to 300 miles for the current sports car. Neither will be able to charge in ten minutes. Plug-in hybrid cars are great, but pure electric cars are too specialized for me.

[besson3c]

Well, I guess I was just thrown by the label of "crap". It sounds like the biggest criticism relate to the cars being too impractical for their price.

[Helmling]

Plug-in hybrids people.

Charge it up at night and it'll take you 50 miles the next day, which is all the average driver needs in an average day. If you do happen to go further then the gas engine kicks in to charge the battery.

According to the driving patterns of the average American, most people would only use one tank of gas a year.

These things hit the market in 2010. I'll be saving up for one.

[zombie punk]

Originally Posted by tie 

The Tesla sedan (est. $60,000 versus $100,000 for the current sports car) will only have a 200 mile range, as opposed to 300 miles for the current sports car. Neither will be able to charge in ten minutes. Plug-in hybrid cars are great, but pure electric cars are too specialized for me.

I'm sorry though, but you are mischaracterizing the choice. The choice is not between cars-as-usual and electric cars, but between a habitable climate and cars-as-usual. The climate that we need to survive is pretty specialized.