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This had me in tears
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Snow-i
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Jun 20, 2014, 01:46 PM
 
I cannot properly express the rage, sadness, and overall disgustedness that I felt after viewing this video and reading the accompanying article. This video shows the murder, so viewer discretion.

Video shows Albuquerque police killing homeless man - CNN.com

This was an execution. Plain and simple. These "police officers" need to get the needle. If I had my way they'd be hanged from the capital as a message to those who would use the badge to commit atrocities among the citizenry. Absolutely disgusting, especially to those good police officers who dedicate their lives to protecting ours and must deal now with a public that (rightfully) distrusts them.

As citizens, how can we protect ourselves from situations such as these?

How can we make sure that those we are trusting to protect us don't turn their power on us? If I were in Albuquerque, I'd be in the streets protesting every day of the week until those sick sons of bitches are sent where they belong; to burn in hell.

I apologize for the overly emotive rant, but seriously watch the video. That's murder. An execution of a mentally ill man without the capacity to understand the situation he was in. There's no other way to describe it.
     
Shaddim
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Jun 20, 2014, 01:55 PM
 
That's just murder, no other way to say it. The cops need to be dismissed, charged, and tried, no question about it.
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subego
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Jun 20, 2014, 02:28 PM
 
What was supposed to happen there?

Guy starts to leave
Flashbang
_______________



This isn't some type of sarcasm. It's an honest question.
     
Shaddim
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Jun 20, 2014, 03:04 PM
 
Taser, net, bean bags (they hit him with those after he'd been murdered), water cannon, boat paddle, someone with H2H training going in and just grabbing him (those tiny knives won't penetrate decent body armor), a hamburger (yes, there is actually a case of a negotiator defusing a situation by offering lunch). There's lots of things that can be tried before going Pulp Fiction on someone, especially when they're only armed with a small pocket knife (or 2).
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Snow-i  (op)
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Jun 20, 2014, 04:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
What was supposed to happen there?

Guy starts to leave
Flashbang
_______________



This isn't some type of sarcasm. It's an honest question.
It appears to me that the police had already decided that this man was going to die. They started with the flash bang and fired before the man had even reacted to the flash bang.

I think in their minds, it happened exactly the way they intended.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jun 21, 2014, 09:46 AM
 
There was a PD I was reading about recently with a string of questionable shootings and other actions. Pretty sure it was Albuquerque. Seems like they have more than a few bad apples.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Snow-i  (op)
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Jun 21, 2014, 12:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
There was a PD I was reading about recently with a string of questionable shootings and other actions. Pretty sure it was Albuquerque. Seems like they have more than a few bad apples.
According to the article I linked above they are very, very close to federal oversight as there are questions swirling around the State's Attorney that keeps letting these guys off the hook for killings such as these. This one is somewhat unique as the entire thing was caught on video.
     
turtle777
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Jun 21, 2014, 01:08 PM
 
     
Shaddim
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Jun 21, 2014, 01:18 PM
 
I guess I wasn't far off when I made a reference to Pulp Fiction after all, not with Zed and Maynard apparently running things down there.
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Snow-i  (op)
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Jun 21, 2014, 01:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I guess I wasn't far off when I made a reference to Pulp Fiction after all, not with Zed and Maynard apparently running things down there.
From my recollection Zed and Maynard weren't carrying AR-15s, body armor and flash bangs. I think the movie would have turned out a bit different if they were.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jun 21, 2014, 05:24 PM
 
The article I read was about a 19 year old girl who they chased because she was driving a stolen vehicle. She got out and ran I think and the cops gunned her down with some insubstantial claim about her maybe pulling a gun on an officer and their chief holding a press conference without "having that information". The article also referred to several other similar cases.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Jun 21, 2014, 05:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
It appears to me that the police had already decided that this man was going to die. They started with the flash bang and fired before the man had even reacted to the flash bang.

I think in their minds, it happened exactly the way they intended.
I'll be the first to throw bad cops under the bus, but that doesn't add up. If that was their intent, the camera would have had a sudden "technical malfunction", and they wouldn't have waited two hours.

With what I see in the tape, my knee-jerk interpretation is these guys were totally wound-up, and in a really tense situation, where they were waiting for that "one false move". Someone throws a flashbang, that's it... it's on. Unless you had previously arranged for that flashbang to be the signal to physically rush him, it's only going to get thrown if things turn pear-shaped. That's why the guy fired. The only reason it would be thrown in this situation (again, without a prearranged plan) is as a prelude to deadly force.
     
subego
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Jun 21, 2014, 09:39 PM
 
I feel that scenario fits with everybody seeming to unload at once.

Let me put it this way... I'm that cop with the rifle, there's no question what I should do is wait to see if Tasers or beanbags work before I fire.

I can see myself ****ing that up.

No question I've done something wrong at that point, but murder?
     
Chongo
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Jun 21, 2014, 10:05 PM
 
And people think the Maricopa County Sheriffs Office is bad.
45/47
     
reader50
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Jun 22, 2014, 01:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Let me put it this way... I'm that cop with the rifle, there's no question what I should do is wait to see if Tasers or beanbags work before I fire.

I can see myself ****ing that up.
Remember, it is not us in their shoes. Unlike us, every cop there has been trained to respond properly. To Serve And Protect.

Perhaps I would respond wrong too. That doesn't excuse professionals who are supposed to protect the innocent, and give reasonable doubt. Before performing executions.
     
subego
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Jun 22, 2014, 01:18 AM
 
Even if I was trained I could **** that up.

And I'm in no way trying to downplay the scope of that ****up, but ****ups are different than executions.
     
Shaddim
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Jun 22, 2014, 01:21 AM
 
This isn't a single bad call, it's habitual and pathological. Suppress him with rubber bullets and/or bean bags, then taze him, disarm (knives), immobilize, cuff, and treat for probable injuries. I was taught that, it's our protocol in this very situation. Killing isn't even on the table, at least not here.
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subego
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Jun 22, 2014, 01:43 AM
 
I fully admit I'm making an assumption the rifle is out there for a reason.
     
Snow-i  (op)
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Jun 22, 2014, 02:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Even if I was trained I could **** that up.

And I'm in no way trying to downplay the scope of that ****up, but ****ups are different than executions.
Dude, squeezing the trigger is taking someone's life away.

Where was all the tension coming from? The three dudes in full combat gear with a dog or the mentally disabled man with a 2 inch knife standing 20 feet away?

I don't buy it. You shouldn't be holding a gun if you can't properly assess a situation and react to that environment.

I didn't see an accident (and believe me I am the first to give the benefit of the doubt to LEO's).
     
Atheist
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Jun 22, 2014, 09:24 AM
 
Every law enforcement professional I've ever talked to said you never shoot your weapon unless you intend to kill. Thus, you never shoot unless you are certain yours or someone else's life is in immediate danger. That certainly wasn't the case here.
     
Shaddim
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Jun 22, 2014, 02:49 PM
 
That's the case with anyone pointing a gun at someone else, you only do it if you're ready to kill, and you pull the trigger with the full intent of taking their life. It's a very big deal.
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subego
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Jun 22, 2014, 04:13 PM
 
Which goes back to my statement I am working under the assumption the rifle came out for a reason.

Is it plausible it was improperly pulled out in the first place? Absolutely. Does one have a lock on that analysis from seeing one minute of a two-hour standoff? Not IMO.
     
subego
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Jun 22, 2014, 04:49 PM
 
And to be clear, I trust both you (Snow-i) and Shaddim. You watch the whole standoff (you can scrub the slow parts), I'll trust your analysis.

The media? Not so much. Outrage = dollars.

To put it another way, we've (somewhat unusually) gotten the part of the tape the cops don't want you to see. I'd like to see the parts of the tape they do want you to see along with it.

If together, I can't make heads or tails of their behavior, well then... there you go.
     
subego
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Jun 22, 2014, 04:55 PM
 
I should also add, considering the police tend to cover-up actual malfeasance on their part, no question they're going to do that if it's "just" a ****up.
     
Snow-i  (op)
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Jun 24, 2014, 10:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
And to be clear, I trust both you (Snow-i) and Shaddim. You watch the whole standoff (you can scrub the slow parts), I'll trust your analysis.

The media? Not so much. Outrage = dollars.

To put it another way, we've (somewhat unusually) gotten the part of the tape the cops don't want you to see. I'd like to see the parts of the tape they do want you to see along with it.

If together, I can't make heads or tails of their behavior, well then... there you go.
I mean, the dude was agitated and uncooperative. I get why the cops are on-edge. But, after a 5 hour standoff they either A) didn't realize the man was mentally ill at the time (which calls into question the intelligence of the officers or (IMO, more likely) B) Didn't care.

Do you think 3 cops holding assault rifles with a dog ready to go are the best people to send into such a situation? I mean, after a five hour standoff they couldn't find anyone equipped to deal with a mentally ill person without flash bangs and murder?

That's what I am saying, subego - I think the cops frankly showed reckless indifference towards human life. If that man were on private property, and those three were the homeowners, would you see murder or self-defense? Cops are only supposed to use lethal force to defend themselves. You tell me where the imminent threat was.


I also totally understand your point about the media and agree wholeheartedly, but frankly the news didn't really make much of a big deal over this. They're more interested in duck dynasty and gay wedding cakes any who.
     
subego
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Jun 24, 2014, 06:49 PM
 
My understanding is they thought he may be a cop killer.

Hindsight is 20/20.

Not a defense, only an observation.
     
Snow-i  (op)
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Jun 24, 2014, 06:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
My understanding is they thought he may be a cop killer.

Hindsight is 20/20.

Not a defense, only an observation.
And 5 hours in a standoff with that mentally ill person didn't give them a hint otherwise?

No one bothered to actually find out? In a 5 hour standoff?

I'm sorry man, I don't buy it.
     
subego
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Jun 24, 2014, 07:02 PM
 
I'm not sure the cop killer's been identified.

Likewise, mental illness does not preclude someone from being a cop killer.
     
Shaddim
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Jun 25, 2014, 04:11 AM
 
With the pocket knives?
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abbaZaba
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Jun 25, 2014, 08:03 AM
 
If you watch the video again, you see the flash grenade go off. Boyd puts his hands up, he drops his bags from his arms, a light shines on his torso, and there is a fade in the video which in all likelihood was done by the news team, but tells me more time passes from the flashbang. Shots aren't fired until his back is to the officers.

That is murder, plain and simple. Despicable.
     
Shaddim
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Jun 25, 2014, 01:11 PM
 
After watching it, paying close attention, it's apparent that they were ready to get it over with, one way or the other. He needed a good counselor, not a group of thugs with badges.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Snow-i  (op)
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Jun 25, 2014, 01:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm not sure the cop killer's been identified.

Likewise, mental illness does not preclude someone from being a cop killer.
All the more reason these assholes need to hang for the murder they committed.

Ambiguously referencing a cop-killer is not a justification to use lethal force. Not even a mitigator. In fact, the notion these cops thought they had a cop-killer on their hands serves in this instance to give motive for the cold-blooded murder they committed. They murdered the wrong guy.

They shot him in the back.
     
subego
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Jun 25, 2014, 08:01 PM
 
This has taken a few steps away from my original point, which was in regards to why the guns came out, not in regards to them being fired.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jun 26, 2014, 04:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
This has taken a few steps away from my original point, which was in regards to why the guns came out, not in regards to them being fired.
I didn't watch the video but the impression given internationally is that US police draw their guns virtually all the time, whether they are raiding your house for drugs, pulling you over for speeding or whatever.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Jun 27, 2014, 02:27 PM
 
Former, yes. Latter, no.
     
subego
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Jun 29, 2014, 01:31 PM
 
I should point out though that pulling someone over is more dangerous than it sounds. IIUC, that's where the majority of officer injuries come from.
     
   
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