[Subzero Diesel949]

First of all, this is not flamebait. I really want to know why I should shell out the $129 to upgrade to 10.2 from 10.1.5 (as if we're not getting milked enough with .Mac) when things are already fine and dandy under 10.1.5. My two iBooks (600 and the original 300) are happy with 10.1.5. I am getting work done on both machines without problems. I mean, if it ain't broke, why fix it? (Aside from the bugs left over from 10.0 *cough* Mail.app *cough*) So, I want to know what really makes 10.2 is superior to 10.1.5. And I don't want to read, "Get it because it has Sherlock 3!" or "Mail.app rocks!" I want serious discussion. Bring in the technical aspects (read: under the hood UNIX stuff) if you have to.

But before that, here's my take. Yes, I have played around with 10.2, so I don't say I am generalizing. Overall I feel that 10.2 is not a "must have" upgrade, but rather a "nice to have" one. IMHO that $129 is going towards more bloat and having to pay for Apple's screw-ups in 10.1.x. Don't get me wrong; for those who want to use iCal, iChat, the new Address Book, and Mail, be my guest. I just want to know what the big deal about 10.2 is.

Mail 2 Basically, I see it as a fix for all of the things Apple couldn't get right the first time. I already switched over to Entourage from Mail 1.0/1.1 and find myself satisfied with it. I have had no problems with junk mail, filtering, etc. Mail 2.0 is simply a dumbed down version of the likes of Entourage and Eudora with features now comparable to them. But why do I need 2 mail applications residing on my hard drive? Should I use Mail 2 now because of the Aqua GUI? Oh wait, but it has the "Bounce to Sender" feature! I've never had that work, as I always got back a mailer-daemon message myself.

The Address Book and iCal. For me, Entourage already takes care of these things (oh I can see the crucifixion coming from the holier-than-thou anti-M$ crowd). And why can't all of these apps be combined into one???

iChat After experimenting with it, I'm sticking to Proteus. Oh, but it integrates with the other apps! Big deal. What does iChat have that Proteus, Fire, Adium, or even the official AIM client do not?

Rendezvous Okay, so 10.2 does bring improved networking. But under 10.1.5 I don't have any networking problems. My iBooks get noticed on the ethernet just fine. I don't need to reboot or do other things. So I should shell out $129 just for that?

Sherlock 3 Yawn. Okay, show of hands. How many of you actually use Sherlock on a frequent basis? I sure don't. I only open it if I forget where I put a file (which is rare) or if I need to look up someone's name (I have a plug-in for our school directory). If I wanted to find something on the net I already have OW open at the Yahoo web site.


Finder Oh yes, the Finder. First, iTools gets replaced with .Mac. Unless you pay the $50 or $100, it doesn't do you any good anyway (well under 10.1.5 all of the iTools stuff will become useless, so what's the difference). It still requires the "open and close window" trick to remember window positions. You still cannot do anything within the Finder while the "Connect to Server" feature is busy. Yes, these are annoying, but I can live with it. However 10.2 does nothing to address them. So why bother?


Samba So what...I use DAVE. Works fine for me.



Okay, so I showed a little snottiness with my opinions. But I'm looking at this from a real world perspective as opposed to some of you who are caught up in the RDF. 10.1.5 gets the job done for me adequately. I can understand that 10.2 will be good for new users, including those making the switch from Windows. I know some of you Apple piglets...errr apologists sucking on Mother Steve's nipples will reply back "No one is forcing you to upgrade" or "If you like it as it is, stick with it." But I know there are others out there asking the same. Is there anything concrete underneath all of the fluff?

Bring on the discussion...and please try to keep this on topic.

[train]

No one is forcing you to upgrade. If you like it as it is, stick with it.

There must be 500 other threads with this discussion.
Starting another => Why Bother?

Jag sounds great to me. I'm looking forward to playing with the new iApps, and seeing the performance improvements. Sherlock 3 will be cool too. I think I will use it much more than the old Sherlock. Plus, the search bar in the finder windows will be killer.

[Silky Voice of The Gorn]

Originally posted by Subzero Diesel949:
First of all, this is not flamebait. I really want to know why I should shell out the $129 to upgrade to 10.2 from 10.1.5 (as if we're not getting milked enough with .Mac) when things are already fine and dandy under 10.1.5. <snippage>

Bring on the discussion...and please try to keep this on topic.

You have a number of valid points regarding .Mac etc.
Howerver, your overall premise reminds me of something that happened to when I was a Mac support guy, oh so many years ago. We were in the midst of upgrading everyone from System 6 to System 7. One designer, who had gotten not only System 7 but also more ram and a new screen, came screaming to us that she hated the new OS, and *demanded* that she be given back her old system (even the screen). I convinced her that this new OS was really good, and would make her work much easier, faster, etc., and she should give it a try. Needless to say I never heard another complaint.

Now granted, the paradigm leap from 6 to 7 was pretty dramatic (Finder to "multifinder"), more so than 10.1 to 10.2; but the point remains; you are more than free to not upgrade to 10.2. Knock yourself out. But remember that developers are coding for 10.2, not 10.1 anymore. You will find more and more incompatibilites as time goes on.

BTW, the speed increases, services and UI enhancements of 10.2 are dramatic and well worth the upgrade IMHO. If you get a chance to work with 10.2, not just "play" with it, you may see this as well.

[Zimphire]

Fire and Proteus can't send files.

[mitchell_pgh]

Look at it the other way...

Other then price, I can't think of one reason not to upgrade... granted... some of the apps are a little more beta like then ready for prime time, but I'm sure it will be fixed in 10.2.1 or whatever...

[::maroma::]

Don't upgrade. End of discussion.

[DannyVTim]

You have already made up your mind that you don't want to upgrade. Why are you wasting everyone's time as if we are here to covience you the value of the upgrade is great.

Don't upgrade. If you do, you'll notice 10-15% increase in speed at the least with many slowdowns removed. either way stop wasting eveyone time with stupid posts.

[DoctorW]

I can see your point.

My theory about OS X is this: Apple rushed to get it out because they had been promising, and failing to deliver, on a "modern" operating system for so long (i.e. Copland, et al) that they had to put their money where their mouth is, and just release the damn thing before it got to the point where nobody, users and developers alike, took them seriously.

Hence, a rather immature 10.0.0. To their credit, Apple has made some major improvements since then. But, now, after a year and a half, the OS is beginning to come of age. Sure, Apple could have waited until now and made Jaguar version 10.0.0, so to speak, but that would have delayed their release of a "modern" OS by a year and a half, something that probably would have harmed the company more than helped.

So, is Jaguar worth the upgrade price? Personally, I can't answer that until the good folks at UPS drop the package off on my stoop. But I'd wager it's going to be the first real, solid version of OS X, and, for that, I'd say yes.

[Green Leaf]

You are to cheap to shell out $130

[WombatPredator]

Originally posted by DoctorW:
I can see your point.

My theory about OS X is this: Apple rushed to get it out because they had been promising, and failing to deliver, on a "modern" operating system for so long (i.e. Copland, et al) that they had to put their money where their mouth is, and just release the damn thing before it got to the point where nobody, users and developers alike, took them seriously.

A couple of points on this. I agree with the general gist of your post but you are forgetting to mention that OS X is based on NeXTSTEP and is not exactly a product of immaculate conception. It took a while to get NeXTSTEP to work harmoniously on the Mac and, when you consider how much engineering must have gone towards getting Classic and Carbon to work, it's actually pretty amazing that Apple pulled it off that fast (considering its available workforce).

Also, Apple must be lauded for designing software using the "good"method (also known as "the method taught in university" also known as "the method nobody follows") which is: make it work THEN make it work fast.

OS X is the perfect embodiement of this: it's solid inside (and no obvious shortcuts were taken to achieve "quick wins") and now Apple is optimizing the OS to work fast. Can you actually think of another OS that gets faster with each release?

To the original poster, Jaguar offers a lot more under the hood than 10.1. The recompilation of almost everything with GCC 3.0 should show some serious improvements across the board (this is a big one for me because it has ramifications everywhere). Also, a lot of APIs have been reviewed and enhanced.

[smeger]

Well, I haven't used Jag yet, but I'm excited about two things:

• Quartz Extreme
• Using gcc3.1 as the compiler should give everything a modest speed increase

But as far as I'm concerned, if you're okay with the speed, don't worry about upgrading until you need to for some other reason.

[KidRed]

$130?!?!
HAHAHA, it's $99 at like evry online mac retailer. AND EVERY major OS update has always recently benn $100. Too expensive? Then why bother?

[Apple Pro Underwear]

wassup sub, i haven't seen a post by you in for awhile

dont upgrade, you're a super power user who pimps out 10.1.5 with the greatest of ease

-------------------------------
This thread reminds me of something someone wrote here...

loosely quoted, some guy wrote a really condescending post about crappy imovie along these lines:
"iMovie is for stupid morons who have never edited a movie, know nothing about the industry and just plain have no experience with anything movie related at all. "

Then some guy quoted his post and wrote:
"i know "
with a link to his itools account...he had 4 quicktime movies of his kid taking his first steps, eating carrots and burping

so it may not be for you, but i'm sure somebody else out there will get a kick out of it

[Gee-Man]

I know some of you Apple piglets...errr apologists sucking on Mother Steve's nipples will reply back "No one is forcing you to upgrade" or "If you like it as it is, stick with it." But I know there are others out there asking the same. Is there anything concrete underneath all of the fluff?

I'm not sure what you're really asking for and if it's for real or not. You really sound like you needed to get some thoughts/rants out in public rather than a genuine request for advice. Seriously though - if you really believe that somebody who would advise you to NOT to spend $130 with Apple and do what you want instead is an "apologist", you might want to work on upgrading that chip on your shoulder. Sounds to me like the exact OPPOSITE of an apologist.

Anyway, I think the "is it worth it" discussions are probably best saved for when 10.2 is actually shipping and enough people have their hands on it to make some more detailed and careful observations, rather than basing it mostly off Apple's PR and a spec sheet on the web page. I personally haven't made up my mind yet, but you certainly sound like you've already made up yours.

[MrBS]

If you don't think 10.2 is worth it, don't get it. But the way you come off in your post, my question for you is:
9.1=>10.1.5 Why Did You Bother?
~BS

[Currawong]

Originally posted by Subzero Diesel949:
First of all, this is not flamebait. I really want to know why I should shell out the $129 to upgrade to 10.2 from 10.1.5

I'd wait for a bit, till at least 10.2.1 anyway. You are right that there is no pressing need to upgrade if you are happy. Personally, I find the myriad of improvements and added features make it far more pleasant to use. It has nothing to do with iChat or Mail or any updated programs, just the little things, like the find command being part of the finder, not opening sherlock; the ability to search directly from finder windows; the internet connect including time connected info, and many other little details.

The Address Book and iCal. For me, Entourage already takes care of these things (oh I can see the crucifixion coming from the holier-than-thou anti-M$ crowd). And why can't all of these apps be combined into one???

Same with me. I use Entourage. I presume Mail and AddressBook are separate so that people can use one without having to use the other. Some applications are appearing that access AddressBook as well, which is handy.

Quite a few of the changes made in 10.2 are aimed at Apple's future direction and technology. I'm not the best person to go into detail about under-the-hood technology, but suffice to say, Apple has been doing a lot of work to make OS X work well with new developments, both software and hardware related, in the computer industry, such as Mac-PC interaction, networking, bluetooth, java, printing and publishing etc. As well, they have brought back quite a bit of functionality that was missed when we upgraded from 9 to X (spring-loaded folders etc).

IMHO, in a month or maybe two, it would be worth considering an upgrade if ensuring your applications will work etc. is important.

[ratlater]

Here is my take on 10.2 after using it for 3 days on my iBook 600. This machine doesn't support QE, so I don't know about that.

Everything is better. Some things are far better, for example the Finder, Mail, and Sherlock are easily twice as useful, if not more than their 10.1.5 counter-parts. I have yet to find one example of something being better in 10.1.5, which I think is pretty impressive.

You said in your post that you used Entourage for mail and calender type work, so I won't discuss Mail (which is unbelievably cool now BTW), but I think I should talk about the Finder.

As far as I see it, this is the main reason to upgrade. It is far more multi-threaded and rarely beach balls on my iBook. Connect to Server is lighting fast...no...scary fast. It's fast...and browsing network drives, be they AFP or SMB is smooth as silk over a LAN connection, and much quicker over a broadband type connection. The main advantage is browsing AFP doesn't beachball the whole Finder now, it just stall that window. Also the Finder now supports spring loaded windows and Services, which is very nice. Another one of my favorite new features is the search function from Finder windows. I have found this to be extremely useful.

The other compelling reason for upgrade is overall system speed. My iBook is far more responsive with 10.2. Applications launch faster and it performs much nicer under heavy load.

There are also a number of lesser reasons to upgrade. Rendevous is cool if you have multiple networked Macs, but not everyone will use this. The BSD layer is now FreeBSD 4.4 compliant, so most of the core utilities have all been updated. 10.2 now supports IPv6 and IPSec so it is ready for the next generation of networking that is coming in the not too distant future. If you do any developing you'll be happy to use the new GCC 3.1 compiler.

Basically 10.2 is much more refined and faster. I'll say this much about my experience, I have a DP 500 on my desk at home, and after installing 10.2 on my iBook I don't use the G4. After you see how nice OS X can be with 10.2 you don't want to go back 10.1.

-matt

[typoon]

Originally posted by ratlater:
Here is my take on 10.2 after using it for 3 days on my iBook 600. This machine doesn't support QE, so I don't know about that.

Everything is better. Some things are far better, for example the Finder, Mail, and Sherlock are easily twice as useful, if not more than their 10.1.5 counter-parts. I have yet to find one example of something being better in 10.1.5, which I think is pretty impressive.

You said in your post that you used Entourage for mail and calender type work, so I won't discuss Mail (which is unbelievably cool now BTW), but I think I should talk about the Finder.

As far as I see it, this is the main reason to upgrade. It is far more multi-threaded and rarely beach balls on my iBook. Connect to Server is lighting fast...no...scary fast. It's fast...and browsing network drives, be they AFP or SMB is smooth as silk over a LAN connection, and much quicker over a broadband type connection. The main advantage is browsing AFP doesn't beachball the whole Finder now, it just stall that window. Also the Finder now supports spring loaded windows and Services, which is very nice. Another one of my favorite new features is the search function from Finder windows. I have found this to be extremely useful.

The other compelling reason for upgrade is overall system speed. My iBook is far more responsive with 10.2. Applications launch faster and it performs much nicer under heavy load.

There are also a number of lesser reasons to upgrade. Rendevous is cool if you have multiple networked Macs, but not everyone will use this. The BSD layer is now FreeBSD 4.4 compliant, so most of the core utilities have all been updated. 10.2 now supports IPv6 and IPSec so it is ready for the next generation of networking that is coming in the not too distant future. If you do any developing you'll be happy to use the new GCC 3.1 compiler.

Basically 10.2 is much more refined and faster. I'll say this much about my experience, I have a DP 500 on my desk at home, and after installing 10.2 on my iBook I don't use the G4. After you see how nice OS X can be with 10.2 you don't want to go back 10.1.

-matt

I will have to agree here. I have been using it for a couple of weeks now and I have had only a few Spinning beachballs if any at all. I thought 10.15 was great on my iBook 600 but this is better. Mail is so much better than it used to be, the Addressbook is nice. I like the Junk Mail filtering that comes with Mail. I don't have to mess with setting up filters like I did with Entoruage. I also don't like having to bring up a program when I don't need it.

Finder Windows Open faster, the find feature is nicer. Sherlock 3 well that is just plain cool. I know Watson does/did the same thing but I'm too cheap to shell out for a program like that when it now come free with my OS. If it didn't I might have paid for it this time around. Also on the iBook the energy saver is now there. It's not in 10.1.5, There are a lot more things that make the OS much more customizable than in 10.1.5, for me it is a compelling upgrade and one well worth 130.

Another question could be asked, Win2000=>XP why bother? I bet a lot of windows users are asking the same question. My iBook is now running only 1 M$ product and that's IE. All my office needs are taken care of by AppleWorks with Maclink Plus and Think Free office. If I really need it then I will install it but so far I haven't found anything I've needed office for that these apps combined with the ones in 10.2 can't handle as good or better than Office.

[Hobbes]

Typhoon and Ratlater, what type of install did you guys do? I'm one of those who is still debating between doing the quick upgrade or formatting and reinstalling.

[DoctorW]

Originally posted by WombatPredator:
A couple of points on this. I agree with the general gist of your post but you are forgetting to mention that OS X is based on NeXTSTEP and is not exactly a product of immaculate conception. It took a while to get NeXTSTEP to work harmoniously on the Mac and, when you consider how much engineering must have gone towards getting Classic and Carbon to work, it's actually pretty amazing that Apple pulled it off that fast (considering its available workforce).

I agree about Apple's efforts into X. But I just think that, if Apple had their druthers, they would have waited a little bit longer and made the first release of OS X more refined that it was.

[wingdo]

Originally posted by DoctorW:


I agree about Apple's efforts into X. But I just think that, if Apple had their druthers, they would have waited a little bit longer and made the first release of OS X more refined that it was.

They needed to get X out the door. Until X was actually out as a consumer OS, most developers wern't going to comit major resources to change their apps.

[rlmorel]

Really, subzero...

You could get your point across without the tired reference to Moronic Mac Users who cannot think for themselves and are viewing the world through Steve Jobs RDF.

I visited your website, nicely done, so you are not clueless. You obviously don't need the strident approach to make your point, so why do it? Just a suggestion.

[ratlater]

Originally posted by Hobbes:
Typhoon and Ratlater, what type of install did you guys do? I'm one of those who is still debating between doing the quick upgrade or formatting and reinstalling.

Did the quick upgrade and it works beautifully. Haven't run into any crashes yet or problems.

-matt

[SpeedRacer]

Why upgrade to 10.2?

Because you'll finally get to use OS 10 final. 10.2. 6C115 runs like a finished product - fast, full-featured, and no-compromises in performance/functionality that require booting back into OS 9.

150 features listed on apple.com do nothing to cover the depth of this OS upgrade. The real deal is that there are finally compelling reasons to use OS 10 over OS 9 (other than 10.1.x's slow app launching, poor window resizing, etc) Working with it full-time now for over a week and i'm still amazed. There is a huge dif from 10.1.5 on this Ti/667.

Speed

[Subzero Diesel949]

Thanks for the replies. I'm not surprised that a few apologists got their panties bunched up. One poster pointed out Quartz Extreme and another about the APIs...yes, I'm excited about those too...but for $129? Some of you are also forgetting about .Mac! The point is not about the features of 10.2, but the $$$. It's because I don't find 10.2 to be that major of an upgrade from 10.1.5 to warrant paying so much for it. If it was a major update like 8.1-> 8.5 or 8.6-> 9.0 I wouldn't mind. But this is almost like another .1 fixer with a few apps tossed in.

To the one newbie who said that I am too cheap, would you pay for everything that Steve dishes out to you? Not everyone has the $$$ to throw away. What if iTunes became a pay-per-use app...say $50? Would you be so caught up in the RDF to do it?


Anyway, here's one good post I want to quote:

Originally posted by Currawong:


I'd wait for a bit, till at least 10.2.1 anyway. You are right that there is no pressing need to upgrade if you are happy. Personally, I find the myriad of improvements and added features make it far more pleasant to use. It has nothing to do with iChat or Mail or any updated programs, just the little things, like the find command being part of the finder, not opening sherlock; the ability to search directly from finder windows; the internet connect including time connected info, and many other little details.

You are absolutely right about the little things. But my concern is that those little things and the fixes are the bait.

IMHO, in a month or maybe two, it would be worth considering an upgrade if ensuring your applications will work etc. is important.

Very true.


One more thing...will my current apps take advantage of the new APIs in 10.2? That's another one.

[Subzero Diesel949]

Originally posted by ratlater:
(Snip)

You said in your post that you used Entourage for mail and calender type work, so I won't discuss Mail (which is unbelievably cool now BTW), but I think I should talk about the Finder.

As far as I see it, this is the main reason to upgrade. It is far more multi-threaded and rarely beach balls on my iBook. Connect to Server is lighting fast...no...scary fast. It's fast...and browsing network drives, be they AFP or SMB is smooth as silk over a LAN connection, and much quicker over a broadband type connection. The main advantage is browsing AFP doesn't beachball the whole Finder now, it just stall that window. Also the Finder now supports spring loaded windows and Services, which is very nice. Another one of my favorite new features is the search function from Finder windows. I have found this to be extremely useful.

People take note...these are the kinds of responses I am looking for.

I too have an iBook 600 (as well as the original 300) but I never got the chance to browse network drives on the G4 I was using. If it is what you say it is that seems to be a definite improvement over 10.1.x, as the computer sometimes lags while going through the network. I haven't had a chance to see 10.2 in action on a LAN connection.


What I do wish for, and I said it before is that Connect to Server not hog up the whole Finder while it is searching the network. Or am I being mistaken? At least that was the impression I got when playing around with it.

[besson3c]

The Address Book and iCal. For me, Entourage already takes care of these things (oh I can see the crucifixion coming from the holier-than-thou anti-M$ crowd). And why can't all of these apps be combined into one???

Entourage will not let you publish your to-do list/calendar to a web server for easy syncronization, or subscribe to other calendars.

iChat After experimenting with it, I'm sticking to Proteus. Oh, but it integrates with the other apps! Big deal. What does iChat have that Proteus, Fire, Adium, or even the official AIM client do not?

iChat doesn't have to be open to get new messages, iChat is integrated with the Mail program, and supports Rendevous networking (while although not terribly useful now is a very cool and forward thinking idea).

Rendezvous Okay, so 10.2 does bring improved networking. But under 10.1.5 I don't have any networking problems. My iBooks get noticed on the ethernet just fine. I don't need to reboot or do other things. So I should shell out $129 just for that?

I'm not sure you understand what Rendevous is, exactly....

Sherlock 3 Yawn. Okay, show of hands. How many of you actually use Sherlock on a frequent basis? I sure don't. I only open it if I forget where I put a file (which is rare) or if I need to look up someone's name (I have a plug-in for our school directory). If I wanted to find something on the net I already have OW open at the Yahoo web site.

The fact that we *don't* have to open Sherlock to search for files is great, and the internet searching stuff that Sherlock 3 does is incredibly cool and useful.

[funkboy]

Originally posted by Subzero Diesel949:
First of all, this is not flamebait.

Now Subzero,

I've read plenty of your posts before, they usually (from what I can remember) seem well thought out and all... but one problem with the above-quoted line:

why did you use the derogatory/negative term "Why Bother?" in your subject line if you did not want flamebait and instead wanted reasonable, positive answers?

--
I'll get 10.2 for the Energy Saver improvements and the overall speed boost, if it happens, on my iBook 500. Otherwise, I may just need a new Mac laptop...

[Currawong]

Originally posted by Subzero Diesel949:
Thanks for the replies. I'm not surprised that a few apologists got their panties bunched up. One poster pointed out Quartz Extreme and another about the APIs...yes, I'm excited about those too...but for $129? Some of you are also forgetting about .Mac! The point is not about the features of 10.2, but the $$$. It's because I don't find 10.2 to be that major of an upgrade from 10.1.5 to warrant paying so much for it. If it was a major update like 8.1-> 8.5 or 8.6-> 9.0 I wouldn't mind. But this is almost like another .1 fixer with a few apps tossed in.

I'm tempted here to accuse you of trolling...

If Apple had called Jaguar "10.5" would you feel it was a "major update"? You may not realize that the marketing people in Apple responsible for 7.5 and 8.5 no longer work there (hence, no more .5 updates). The point is...your reasoning sounds rather silly. 10.2 is CONSIDERABLY changed...no...it's as if they have totally rebuilt the OS. That simply isn't reflected in the version number change. If it weren't for the number of people who believe that because it isn't a .5 update, that the changes aren't that great...

You are absolutely right about the little things. But my concern is that those little things and the fixes are the bait.

If they are bait, then tell me where they are being hyped upon by Apple. Most of the little changes came from feedback by users, and they make life so much easier. I only realized when I went into an Apple store just now how annoying 10.1 seems compared to 10.2. The extras don't seem like they are thrown in to bait anyone, but feel like well thought out improvements.

I could go through and list everything I can think of that makes 10.2 such an improvement, but it's really the sum total..it's as if Apple suddenly has got its act together with OS X and brought everything into harmony. When I saw how vastly it had improved, I went online and bought it, and, using it, I have zero regrets about doing so.

[Subzero Diesel949]

Originally posted by Currawong:


I'm tempted here to accuse you of trolling...

If Apple had called Jaguar "10.5" would you feel it was a "major update"? You may not realize that the marketing people in Apple responsible for 7.5 and 8.5 no longer work there (hence, no more .5 updates). The point is...your reasoning sounds rather silly. 10.2 is CONSIDERABLY changed...no...it's as if they have totally rebuilt the OS. That simply isn't reflected in the version number change. If it weren't for the number of people who believe that because it isn't a .5 update, that the changes aren't that great...

Even if Apple called it 10.5 I wouldn't see it as a "must-have" major update. It's not about numbers. I only used those examples for the sake of discussion. You know, I have only seen a few posts where people have actually pointed out what really makes 10.2 better completely and cogently. Instead, you imply that I am a troll. Look over there at my post count. If I was a troll I wouldn't have been sticking around for this long.

*Sigh*

[jock]

Well I have a new tibook and it came with the 10.2 disks. All I will say is that the difference is ****ing amazing. Yes the finder is super responsive, sure connecting to DOS networks is a no brainer, I could go on but instead I'll encourage you to save your pennies and buy it!

[OreoCookie]

I don't see why you have a problem with upgrading -- I am eager to use Jagwire asap.

It'll be a great update: VPN, GNU compiler suite 3.1, faster GUI, FreeBSD 4.4 kernel feature parity, InkWell (my dad is eager to test that), Rendezvous, ...

Now it's evolution, not revolution.

[moki]

Personally, I think that the Mac OS X 10.2 upgrade is a no-brainer -- it's just so much improved over 10.1.x

...however, I do think Apple has overpriced it. If you own 10.1, you really should be able to get a cheaper upgrade to 10.2 than $129 (or as has been pointed out, $99 at some mail order companies).

[YoungTurk]

Originally posted by ratlater:
Here is my take on 10.2 after using it for 3 days on my iBook 600. This machine doesn't support QE, so I don't know about that.




Basically 10.2 is much more refined and faster. I'll say this much about my experience, I have a DP 500 on my desk at home, and after installing 10.2 on my iBook I don't use the G4. After you see how nice OS X can be with 10.2 you don't want to go back 10.1.

-matt

What install option did you choose for 10.2 - clean install, upgrade or archive to get these speed improvements? Also, how much RAM do you have?

Thanks,

YoungTurk
iBook 600 Combo Drive 384/20
iMac 800 Superdrive 512/60

[dazzla]

I had Jaguar installed but although there was a minor speed boost, there were too many annoyances for me to stay on it.

There are still a lot of graphical glitches in the OS.
Although it is faster, it isn't that much faster.
Some apps like Internet Explorer and Office X have problems with it although I expect there will be an update around the 24th.
Haxies don't work, although that's to be expected at the moment.
Themes aren't working well at the moment, although again, that's to be expected.
Virtual PC is really bad on it, Windows 2000 ran at least twice as slow then on 10.1.5 if you measure it by installation and boot up time.


There are a lot things like that. I don't really see the need to upgrade until things like this are sorted, and until iChat is finished...


One thing I do miss though, Mail. It was lovely in Jaguar.

[typoon]

Originally posted by Hobbes:
Typhoon and Ratlater, what type of install did you guys do? I'm one of those who is still debating between doing the quick upgrade or formatting and reinstalling.

Actaully I did all 3. I did the upgrade it borke Norton and Dave so I did the clean install. It archived my stuff so i could move stuff over if I needed it but it kept all my apps and stuff in place. I hate clutter and my iBook hasn't been reformatted since I bought it so I reformatted it.

One thing I did notice about doing just a straight upgrade was the find window in the finder doesn't show up and you have to customize the screen to get it. If you can I would backup your stuff reformat and re-install it gets reid of junk you may have has running on you machine

Another reason why I reformatted was because now I am basically M$ free except for IE which I like better than the other browsers. Mail does it job I thin better than Entourage and Addressbook is decent too.

My Office Apps are Think Free Office which saves .doc files and does everything but the advanced features of Office. and Appleworks with MacLink Plus 13 (not the one that comes with AppleWorks). No complaints here. my iBook flies now and it's basically M$ free

[Marook]

Hi All.

OK, here is my list, that by itself is worth the $129,-:[list=1][*]Bluetooth.
The integration with GSM/phones is awsome! Just wait till you try this feature.[*]AddressBook API
Having a global AddressBook in the system, is a start to what people have been asking for for years. System wide services, that all apps can use. The AddressBook is a Great start. How many of you haven't kept addresses in several applications/systems? Call it Entourage, Mail, Now Up To Date etc. They all had/have their own AddressBook. Consolidating this in ONE place, with sync to PDA/Phone/iPod web etc is worth the price alone.[/list=1]

And could we Please stop making .Mac a part of OS X? It's not, though it seems to be. I hate Apple for this move too, but live with it, or ditch it.

[BZ]

I have only tried 10.2 on a 17" iMac at MWNY02, so I am not saying I have spent that much time on it but here are a few thoughts.

Should the price be lower? Sure. I always like something for nothing but I also want Apple to survive. I own two Macs and much Apple stock so if the business decision is to ask $129, well, it is up to the consumer to decide. I will buy it. I have friends and parents who will be getting it as a free upgrade (they just bought macs) but I will buy it anyway. The list of features is great from the unix stuff (which I love) to the new apps (iSync, iCal). I have heard anything between 10-25% speed increases across the board. Would you buy a "chip" for your computer that gave you 10-25% speed increase? Damn right you would.

The other thing I find interesting is some of the penny pinching going on. I am not floating in money but I try to do a value equation when I am thinking about buying something. I bought 10.0 on 3/24/01 for full price. I have used it for a year and a half for thousands of hours. Was it worth the $129? You bet.

Now I am looking at another $129 (I will probably get it from an Apple store, Soho). Given Apple's timing it should last me for a year or a year and a half more. So I get over 10 iApplications (iMovie, iDvd, iSync, Mail, iCal, iPhoto, Address book, iTunes, Preview, Sherlock.. etc etc), a whole new OS and a 10-25% speed increase, a year of automated updates for a year for only $129!?! I will use it for another two thousand hours (did the math) it will cost me about $.06 an hour. What is a movie here in NYC? $10 for 90 minutes or $6.50 an hour. How about cable ($45 a month)? or your internet connection ($50 a month)?

The good news is, you can wait. If you wait for 6 months or so, you will be able to get it for $45 at that point I doubt anyone will be able to argue it is too much.

BZ

[DannyVTim]

Originally posted by YoungTurk:


What install option did you choose for 10.2 - clean install, upgrade or archive to get these speed improvements? Also, how much RAM do you have?

Thanks,

YoungTurk
iBook 600 Combo Drive 384/20
iMac 800 Superdrive 512/60

My personal experience tells me that is shouldn't make a bit if difference how you upgrade. This idea that the method somewhow leads to speed increases is often bull. But, I tried the upgrade and then the archive and install and the later does in fact seem to be faster.

[gorgonzola]

Subzero -- part of it is that you don't really have a complete list of changes/new features/bug fixes, and you don't seem to really understand what some of the ones actually do (Rendezvous, for example).

There really are too many changes to easily list -- and I'm not saying that you'll definitely think it's a must-have upgrade after you see such a list -- but it's necessary to understand what exactly you're getting for your money before you pull out the snot-nosed RDF Mac user card.

And I'd agree with moki that it's a bit of a no-brainer upgrade-wise, but there should have been an upgrade price for 10.1 users. In any case, you can get it for less than $129 almost anywhere else, which reduces the one real reason not to buy it.

[barbarian]

Topic: 10.1.5 => 10.2: Why Bother?

The simple answer is speed. No matter what machine you run, you will notice a big speed bump. Especially in the finder. Eliminating the finder beachball makes a big difference in my perception of the OS. While I have access to a developer copy and while I think this is what OS X 1.0 should have looked like, I'm paying for the full upgrade because I think it's the right thing to do. It will save me from upgrading 2 or 3 machines at least for another year.That's worth the price of admission for me.

[dazzla]

Originally posted by barbarian:
Topic: 10.1.5 => 10.2: Why Bother?

The simple answer is speed. No matter what machine you run, you will notice a big speed bump. Especially in the finder. That's worth the price of admission for me. It will save me from upgrading 2 or 3 machines at least for another year.

It wasn't that large a speed bump if any. I'm using an iMac with 512mb and G4 700 and QE was in use. Scrolling isn't that much improved and window resizing wasn't that much improved either.

And of course, you could still make the CPU monitor go up to 100% if you turn magnification on and run your cursor along the dock.

The best new feature of the finder isn't speed, it's that damn search field. It's quality.

[Mskr]

Hey, Subby.

Will your current apps take advantage of API changes in 10.2? For some of the APIs, yes.

In our CodeTek VirtualDesktop application, we had a complaint that some pictures of icons in the mini-windows of our pager we're anti-aliased. It wasn't anything we consciously did; in other words, we didn't choose for them to be non-anti-aliased. They just use the NSImage class in Cocoa.

In testing 10.2, I looked down at the pager and noticed, "Hey, those icons are now anti-aliased". For free. Without a single code change. In other words, the Quartz Extreme API changed the way images are rendered in Cocoa (apparently) and our application took advantage of that change without us doing anything. I can only assume that there are other examples of this sort of thing out there that you could find. Yes, most of the API changes will need to be incorporated into the applications you use, but 10.2 is the future; why wouldn't a software developer do so, if it made sense?

[iamnid]

"I'm excited about those too...but for $129? Some of you are also forgetting about .Mac!"




Subzero -- please tell me what the hell this discussion has to do with .mac.

[[email protected]]

Subzero, I invite you to do the unthinkable...and actually check out Apple's website on Jaguar. An amazing idea eh? There, you will see a complete list of most (if not all) of Jaguar's features, technology, bug fixes, etc. If and when you have checked it out, thoroughly, and still don't see a compelling reason to shell out 130 (or as low as 69 at some places) dollars...well then, that's a shame my friend. Have fun with 10.1.5.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/

http://www.apple.com/macosx/technologies/

Cheers,

Yaser Herrera

[dazzla]

Originally posted by [email protected]:
Subzero, I invite you to do the unthinkable...and actually check out Apple's website on Jaguar. An amazing idea eh? There, you will see a complete list of most (if not all) of Jaguar's features, technology, bug fixes, etc. If and when you have checked it out, thoroughly, and still don't see a compelling reason to shell out 130 (or as low as 69 at some places) dollars...well then, that's a shame my friend. Have fun with 10.1.5.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/

http://www.apple.com/macosx/technologies/

Cheers,

Yaser Herrera

I'm sure everone is aware of that list, but nothing beats forming an opinion after trying the OS.

[asxless]

Thanks Subsero for asking the question that _most_ OS X users are probably asking themselves: Is the Jaguar upgrade really compelling enough to spend $129 (even discounted), if you aren't interested in the new iApps (e.g. iChat, iSync, iCal, etc.) or bundled application upgrades (e.g. Mail)?

Thanks also to the handful of posters in this thread who actually answered your question, bringing up points about the improvements in speed, the Finder, Energy Saver features, etc. instead of parroting (or providing links) to the Apple web page, which BTW doesn't even mention a single bug fix.

Only a few posts in this thread (or for that matter in this whole forum) have made me even consider upgrading to 10.2 at this time: the ones discussing the basic features and functionality of the OS not the iApp add ons that Apple's site and many of the posts in this forum spend so much time/space repeating/discussing.

BTW an even more interesting question is: Will the Mac users, who have not yet upgraded to OS X, find Jaguar compelling enough to upgrade their non OS X orphans now? Whether you or I upgrade from OS X 10.1.5 to OS X 10.2 is a cash flow and short term profit thing for Apple. Whether people upgrade from OS <10 to OS X 10.2 is an installed user base and long term growth thing for Apple and 3rd party vendors.

FWIW I have not used 10.2 because I have no legal access to it. I have read extensively about 10.2 here and on many other sites. Based on that info, I do not plan to upgrade my TiBook from 10.1.5 at this time. After a delay of over 18months, waiting for Apple to get their PowerMacprice/performance and OS X act together, my wife expects to purchase one of the new Twin Gig PowerMacs. We will wait a month or two until we have heard the reports on the new PowerMac's quality/performance and until they are bundled with free RAM. etc. It will come with 10.2.x installed. If after using 10.2 on it for a while, I find that indeed the Finder bugs have been fixed, the energy saver features are finally on a par with OS 9, and our current apps. etc. work fine, etc. ... I'll upgrade to 10.2 on my TiBook. As I have posted many times in the past... it is NOT the money, it is the principle.

asxless in iLand

[iamnid]

by the way genius boy -- you mentioned in one of your posts something about "school" -- if you're a student or work at a school, jaguar is only $69... so quit your whining.


Iamnid scores a fatality on sub-zero

[brainchild2b]

I recommend this, while jag doesn't seem like a big deal, just until you get to use it. It's fast, way fast, it's like somebody put a coat of oil over the whole thing..

Go buy it, if you don't like it return it, tell them something about how your computer was too old for it. This way if you don't like it you can go back to 10.1.5

Trust me you will find it well worth the price.

[Currawong]

Originally posted by Subzero Diesel949:


Even if Apple called it 10.5 I wouldn't see it as a "must-have" major update. It's not about numbers. I only used those examples for the sake of discussion. You know, I have only seen a few posts where people have actually pointed out what really makes 10.2 better completely and cogently. Instead, you imply that I am a troll. Look over there at my post count. If I was a troll I wouldn't have been sticking around for this long.

*Sigh*

No implications on anything

Lets see how I go listing what does it for me with 10.2:
First of all, the option to Archive install (read: clean install) the system preserving users or just upgrade. Either one works fine, but the clean install essentially removes things you might have installed that add or modify the system, which is a bit safer. Even with an upgrade install, Norton Utilities, which is broken in 10.2 and which installs things into the system, doesn't cause any trouble. I started up with command-v and it just puts a message saying that the Norton extension wont work and it ignores it.

The Finder, Dock and System Preferences are where the biggest interface improvements are. The dock, which used to pause on me all the time, very irritatingly, no longer does. It's now a flat grey with one dividing line (I modified mine in 10.1 to be transparent, which I miss). You can navigate the menubar with control-F2, Dock with control-F3 etc etc or customize the key combo. The dock dimms the icons and arrows of hidden applications.

The Finder now has the search window in the toolbar (optional, you have to customize it). This is purely brilliant, the search starting from the folder/directory you are viewing. The window changes to show results, and you can go back to where you were before with a click of the mouse or double-click on an item to have it show up instead. If you click command-F in the finder now, you get a search window like you used to in older Mac OS'es, the results showing in a new window with all the options of a regular finder window.

The HD capacity now shows in the top of a finder window (finally, we have Mac OS 7 functionality return). As well as not showing them, the finder can show the the capacity of HD's under their icons in the Finder, below or to the right. Airport status and the internet time connected now show in the menu bar, and the date and time in the clock are fixed.

The system preferences now allow you to customize what happens when you insert a blank cd or dvd. Internet sharing can be enabled with the click of a mouse, including over airport. There is now a one-click firewall, customizable, which uses the built in IPFW. I can finally share the net without having to use brickhouse. Internet connect now includes airport functionality.

Printing is now no longer a hit-and miss experience. Previously, I couldn't use appletalk to print to my lexmark Optra Rx without waiting half an hour for a single page to print. I had to set it up as an IP-based printer, but now I can use either with no problems. As printing is CUPS based, there promises to be fewer problems with drivers (though it doesn't stop manufacturers writing dodgy drivers).

Users can log in from Windows, finder windows remember their settings and don't go haywire like before, XWindows, which I installed, doesn't crash on me; games play faster and more smoothly. There are fewer pauses and delays across the board. You can ftp from the finder (broken actually, but shall be fixed soon enough). Programs overall use far less CPU time (iTunes is still a bit of a CPU hog, at 7-15% though).

As well as the little features, everything runs faster, smoother and with fewer problems than before. I paid for Windowshade a few weeks ago simply to avoid having to minimize windows to the buggy dock, now it doesn't bother me any more. I don't care for the fancy additions, like double-clicking on a HD icon in the finder opening the window by scaling the image as if it had come from the dock, but all the added functionality, most of which came from user feedback from what i'm told, makes the experience of using OSX so much more pleasant.