Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Another developer ripoff by Apple: Dashboard

Another developer ripoff by Apple: Dashboard (Page 3)
Thread Tools
itai195
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Cupertino, CA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 1, 2004, 08:34 PM
 
I think I mostly agree with Thurrott on this. But it's not necessarily copying technology that's the problem, it's Apple taking credit when it wouldn't have cost them much to avoid this whole problem by tossing a bone to the Konfabulator guys. I still disagree with him on Sherlock -- Apple did offer a job to the developer as I recall, and it was a natural progression from Sherlock 2. But who the heck actually uses Sherlock 3 anyway?
     
Millennium
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 1, 2004, 09:59 PM
 
Originally posted by Developer:
And since he linked you, I suggest you all read Paul Thurrott's article Derivative, not innovative: Apple's Dashboard is a Konfabulator rip-off. Don't let the controversial name distract you, this is actually a very insightful and intelligent article. A little bit longish, but well worth the read.
Paul Thurrott is an astroturfing fraud, and this has been true for many years. He doesn't even understand what Konfabulator is, never mind Dashboard (he seems to think they're some kind of notification service). He doesn't understand the LiteSwitch fiasco either; the only reason Panther's CMD-Tab looks so similar to LiteSwitch is because LiteSwitch followed the UI guidelines so closely, and that's hardly Apple's fault. If it had looked any different, people would have complained about Apple not following its own UI guidelines.

This article was poorly-researched and poorly-written, even for Thurrott. Usually he at least gets his spelling and grammar right, and much of the time he even manages to put a semblance of logic into his vitriol to try and cover up all the fallacies. This article failed to live up to even those low standards, however. No, I'm afraid this was just a hastily-written attempt at bashing Apple, something he pursues with an obsessive zeal rivaling even his hatred of Linux.
You are in Soviet Russia. It is dark. Grue is likely to be eaten by YOU!
     
Earth Mk. II
Mac Elite
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 1, 2004, 10:07 PM
 
Does Thurrott contridict himself here?

This application, called Konfabulator, answers a question that plagues all modern operating systems: Even though full applications provide excellent functionality, sometimes those applications, or the underlying system, needs to provide notifications to the user. These notifications could be about instant messaging contacts coming online, new email alerts, weather updates, or any other related functionality. In the past, applications would have to figure out how to send users these alerts, so Microsoft has undertaken a wide-reaching project to centralize notifications and alerts in Longhorn, its next-generation Windows release, through the OS (read more here). That way, users will have a consistent experience. But this issue isn't unique to Windows: All OSes have this problem.

On Mac OS X, there is no such consistent interface. So the developers of Konfabulator came up with a cool idea: Provide an extensible platform, on Mac OS X, for providing on-screen alerts to users. "The possibilities for something like this could potentially be limitless," the authors of Konfabulator write on their Web site. Collaborating, they settled on a JavaScript engine, because it would be easier for people to use, and a graphical front-end that would be visually appealing and easy for graphics creators to create.
... then, later on ...

More to the point, no one can argue that Konfabulator was "plugging a hole in the OS," charges aimed at previous developers who complained when Apple ripped them off.
So... Konfabulator answers "a question that plagues all modern operating systems," when Apple itself provided no solution, and yet it somehow can't be said that Konfabulator was "plugging a hole in the OS?"

Is there a logic course we all can enroll in, because he's clearly speaking on a different level.
/Earth\ Mk\.\ I{2}/
     
Adam Betts
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: North Hollywood, CA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 1, 2004, 10:22 PM
 
Originally posted by Millennium:
Paul Thurrott is an astroturfing fraud, and this has been true for many years. He doesn't even understand what Konfabulator is, never mind Dashboard (he seems to think they're some kind of notification service). He doesn't understand the LiteSwitch fiasco either; the only reason Panther's CMD-Tab looks so similar to LiteSwitch is because LiteSwitch followed the UI guidelines so closely, and that's hardly Apple's fault. If it had looked any different, people would have complained about Apple not following its own UI guidelines.

This article was poorly-researched and poorly-written, even for Thurrott. Usually he at least gets his spelling and grammar right, and much of the time he even manages to put a semblance of logic into his vitriol to try and cover up all the fallacies. This article failed to live up to even those low standards, however. No, I'm afraid this was just a hastily-written attempt at bashing Apple, something he pursues with an obsessive zeal rivaling even his hatred of Linux.
I'd have to agree Easily his worst post
     
Developer
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: europe
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 1, 2004, 10:24 PM
 
Millenium, you are such an Apple apologist par excellence. Apple is killing its most innovative ISVs one after the other and you are even defending them. Sure, you and Apple can hope that with a free Xcode and open sourcing a little bit of this and that, enough creative people to rip off grow again, but please show a little bit of honesty and the dignity to at leas admit that it is what it is - namely a rip off.

Originally posted by Millennium:
He doesn't understand the LiteSwitch fiasco either; the only reason Panther's CMD-Tab looks so similar to LiteSwitch is because LiteSwitch followed the UI guidelines so closely, and that's hardly Apple's fault.
There is nothing - absolutely nothing - in that app switcher bezel that can be found in any published guideline (except that it uses Lucida Grande as the font). An independent design certainly wouldn't have so closely mimicked LiteSwitch.
But I would have been willing to accept it as incidental similarity. Or Watson, or LaunchBar, or Konfabulator. But all together I can only see that as trend to shamelessly rip off third party developers.
Nasrudin sat on a river bank when someone shouted to him from the opposite side: "Hey! how do I get across?" "You are across!" Nasrudin shouted back.
     
Zimphire
Baninated
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Moon
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 1, 2004, 10:30 PM
 
Originally posted by Developer:
And since he linked you, I suggest you all read Paul Thurrott's article Derivative, not innovative: Apple's Dashboard is a Konfabulator rip-off. Don't let the controversial name distract you, this is actually a very insightful and intelligent article. A little bit longish, but well worth the read.

He spinned it a tad. Not to mention the other article did a better job proving otherwise.
     
Tick
Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Feb 2004
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 1, 2004, 11:01 PM
 
Wow, 3 pages of thread made about something that isn't going to change... Neat.

We know these things:

1) Apple isn't going to pull dashboard. They've invested too much into it.

2) Arlo will survive. He has his windows version coming out sooner or later, and will hopefully add more functionality to konfab (good luck, don't put all your eggs in one basket though)

3) All konfab widgets for the first month or two appeared to be either:

A clock
A rss feed reader

4) All konfab widgets are huge, can we not duplicate this effort on dashboard, and perhaps rectify it on konfab widget boards

5) Someone is going to respond to this post horribly construing it to make their own point.

6) Someone will reply to them

7) Ad nausea. Spinning wheels of death and destruction. Windows flying everywhere with pigs jumping through them.


Or we can leave it at where it stands, that in 9 months "DASHBOARD KICKS BUTT OMG OMG OMG" will be what most people will say.


Meanwhile, automator is cooler
     
Earth Mk. II
Mac Elite
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 1, 2004, 11:05 PM
 
Originally posted by Tick:
Meanwhile, automator is cooler
/Earth\ Mk\.\ I{2}/
     
Tick
Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Feb 2004
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 1, 2004, 11:20 PM
 
     
wataru
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 12:00 AM
 
Originally posted by Developer:
But all together I can only see that as trend to shamelessly rip off third party developers.
Dashboard is a superior implementation of an old idea. There is no ripping off going on here, at least with regards to Dashboard. Read the link I posted on the second page and see if you can still claim otherwise with a straight face.
Sepia porn? That's a bit too kinky for me
     
ambush  (op)
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: -
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 12:25 AM
 
Originally posted by Tick:
And to proove it, here:


http://www.erikveland.com/arkiv/imag...downloader.jpg
Hilarious
     
- - e r i k - -
Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 03:06 AM
 
Everybody loves me now

I did point out that my classy pr0n show contains an error though, but still even with the correct link (download internet files instead of copy files (which automator suggested)) the script failed with a lovely -1 error.

No pr0n for me

[ fb ] [ flickr ] [] [scl] [ last ] [ plaxo ]
     
JLL
Professional Poster
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 04:59 AM
 
Originally posted by Developer:
There is nothing - absolutely nothing - in that app switcher bezel that can be found in any published guideline (except that it uses Lucida Grande as the font). An independent design certainly wouldn't have so closely mimicked LiteSwitch.
Try pressing your volume button, eject button, brightness button and so on.

LiteSwitch' transparant background mimics those pop ups.

Again: if a 3rd party developer releases something that looks like Apple's GUI, they shouldn't complain that Apple's own implementations looks the same.
JLL

- My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.
     
JLL
Professional Poster
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 06:17 AM
 
Originally posted by leperkuhn:
OK, so when I read your post, I pictured you crying. Grab a tissue, and for just a moment, consider the possibility that Apple has thought about this.

Countermeasure #1: These widgets can only work if they are in the Widgets folder. This prevents random web pages from changing your song in itunes, reading your address book, whatever.

Countermeasure #2: Safari might not allow the exploitation of the widgets within Safari itself. Just because it's witten with the syntax of the web does not mean it will run in your web browser. There is most likely going to be a preventative measure against it.

I'm sorry but I'm a little less impressed with your huge rant than other people here seem to be. I also think that Apple just might take security a little more seriously (and have the means to do so) than Microsoft. Get a grip.
Here are the real countermeasures:

1) The native plugin code must be owned by root. This means that in order for a Dashboard widget that contains one of these special types of plugins to execute that code, you have to enter a root account password (to chown the plugin code). This plugin code cannot execute, therefore, without the widget being "blessed" just as an application that you might install on your system must be.
(2) This plugin will not be present in Safari or other WebKit applications, and is only accessible from Dashboard.
(3) The dashboard object is also exposed on the JS window object of the HTML document and has methods for "meta-functions" that the Dashboard can execute.

Read more here: http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/hyatt...07.html#005896
JLL

- My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.
     
entrox
Senior User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 06:21 AM
 
Originally posted by Developer:
There is nothing - absolutely nothing - in that app switcher bezel that can be found in any published guideline (except that it uses Lucida Grande as the font). An independent design certainly wouldn't have so closely mimicked LiteSwitch.
What a bizarre statement. The idea to arrange icons horizontally on switch isn't particularly new, having been in Windows for as long as I can remember. I'm also sure that there are at least two dozen X11 window managers doing it the same way. Now, how should we highlight the currently selected icon? Perhaps by doing it in exactly the same way as the finder does? Sounds good, but floating icons don't look particularly pleasing to the eye. How about giving them some background? Like the bezel background in the brightness, volume or eject controls? The same background that has been used for quite some time now? Nah, that would be ripping off LiteSwitch.
     
- - e r i k - -
Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 06:51 AM
 
Originally posted by entrox:
What a bizarre statement. The idea to arrange icons horizontally on switch isn't particularly new, having been in Windows for as long as I can remember. I'm also sure that there are at least two dozen X11 window managers doing it the same way. Now, how should we highlight the currently selected icon? Perhaps by doing it in exactly the same way as the finder does? Sounds good, but floating icons don't look particularly pleasing to the eye. How about giving them some background? Like the bezel background in the brightness, volume or eject controls? The same background that has been used for quite some time now? Nah, that would be ripping off LiteSwitch.
I was thinking about the exact same thing. LiteSwitch used only logical Apple-derived UI-metaphors. For the life of me I don't understand why they even was a debate about that

[ fb ] [ flickr ] [] [scl] [ last ] [ plaxo ]
     
Millennium
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 07:23 AM
 
Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
I was thinking about the exact same thing. LiteSwitch used only logical Apple-derived UI-metaphors. For the life of me I don't understand why they even was a debate about that
Because someone wasn't happy that a hole they were plugging in the OS got fixed, and because people were still smarting over the Watson incident and wanted to find any other excuse to accuse Apple of ripping someone off.
You are in Soviet Russia. It is dark. Grue is likely to be eaten by YOU!
     
Tick
Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Feb 2004
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 09:44 AM
 
Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
Everybody loves me now

I did point out that my classy pr0n show contains an error though, but still even with the correct link (download internet files instead of copy files (which automator suggested)) the script failed with a lovely -1 error.

No pr0n for me
That is your screen shot? It's been circulating on irc rather rapidly, it's quite funnah

You sir are a mang amoung boyz
     
- - e r i k - -
Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 10:47 AM
 
Originally posted by Tick:
That is your screen shot? It's been circulating on irc rather rapidly, it's quite funnah

You sir are a mang amoung boyz
As a link or image? Along with my posting of the gadget that would contribute to me exceeding my bandwidth limit by 3.5 gigs in two days

Had to remove thos gadgets though, hope you all had a nice look at them. (Even though it seemed to piss of a couple of guys (strangely not Apple-guys)).

[ fb ] [ flickr ] [] [scl] [ last ] [ plaxo ]
     
Tick
Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Feb 2004
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 10:48 AM
 
Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
As a link or image? Along with my posting of the gadget that would contribute to me exceeding my bandwidth limit by 3.5 gigs in two days

Had to remove thos gadgets though, hope you all had a nice look at them. (Even though it seemed to piss of a couple of guys (strangely not Apple-guys)).
Just the image
     
thunderous_funker
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Beautiful Downtown Portland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 12:57 PM
 
Originally posted by Developer:
Millenium, you are such an Apple apologist par excellence. Apple is killing its most innovative ISVs one after the other and you are even defending them. Sure, you and Apple can hope that with a free Xcode and open sourcing a little bit of this and that, enough creative people to rip off grow again, but please show a little bit of honesty and the dignity to at leas admit that it is what it is - namely a rip off.
What a baseless, ignorant load of tripe.

The Liteswitch issue is a complete non-starter. The Watson developers were offered jobs and Dashboard is a completely different and vastly superior implemenation of one of Apple's oldest ideas.

Apple has demonstrated it is perfectly willing to buy quality products and integrate them (remember SoundJam?). Their track record speaks for itself on that regard.

Any developer who comes up with a half-assed implementation of a very old idea has absolutely no room to gripe when Apple comes along and does it better. Especially when the original idea started with Apple in the first place.
"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die." -- Hunter S. Thompson
     
Zimphire
Baninated
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Moon
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 01:01 PM
 
Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
What a baseless, ignorant load of tripe.

The Liteswitch issue is a complete non-starter. The Watson developers were offered jobs and Dashboard is a completely different and vastly superior implemenation of one of Apple's oldest ideas.

Apple has demonstrated it is perfectly willing to buy quality products and integrate them (remember SoundJam?). Their track record speaks for itself on that regard.

Any developer who comes up with a half-assed implementation of a very old idea has absolutely no room to gripe when Apple comes along and does it better. Especially when the original idea started with Apple in the first place.
     
Stradlater
Professional Poster
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Off the Tobakoff
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 01:14 PM
 
Originally posted by Developer:
There is nothing - absolutely nothing - in that app switcher bezel that can be found in any published guideline (except that it uses Lucida Grande as the font). An independent design certainly wouldn't have so closely mimicked LiteSwitch.
But I would have been willing to accept it as incidental similarity. Or Watson, or LaunchBar, or Konfabulator. But all together I can only see that as trend to shamelessly rip off third party developers.
LiteSwitch functioned exactly like the Windows app-switcher. If a temporary dialog is going to pop up on a Mac screen for app-switching, a bezel is the only thing that makes sense, so of course Apple's going to use a bezel upon implementation.

Oh...and is Millenium an apologist? Wasn't he the first one to knock Apple for the JavaScript limitation and its similarity to Konfabulator?
"You rise," he said, "like Aurora."
     
thunderous_funker
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Beautiful Downtown Portland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 01:31 PM
 
Originally posted by Stradlater:
Oh...and is Millenium an apologist? Wasn't he the first one to knock Apple for the JavaScript limitation and its similarity to Konfabulator?
And to Millenium's credit he was the first to concede that the accussation was groundless after learning the fundamental differences in Dashboard's implementation.
"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die." -- Hunter S. Thompson
     
Stradlater
Professional Poster
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Off the Tobakoff
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 01:33 PM
 
Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
And to Millenium's credit he was the first to concede that the accussation was groundless after learning the fundamental differences in Dashboard's implementation.
Very graciously, indeed
"You rise," he said, "like Aurora."
     
theolein
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: zurich, switzerland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 02:07 PM
 
It is amazing that this Dashboard thing can dregde up so much tension in the Apple community.

What is even more amazing is that the crowd seems to spend more time on Paul "WinTroller" Thurrot's site, and lend more credibility to it, than they do to other Mac review sites: Take a look at this one on Daring Fireball, which arguably has more depth and credibility than Paul "Billy's whore" Thurrot.

What DF says about Dashboard is incredibly interesting: The actual technologies behind Dashboard are much more accessible and much less resource intensive than Konfabulator. Kf uses a proprietry Javascript engine and a proprietry XML engine, and you can't write applications for those without a licence. Db uses WebCore, and Db applications are, simply put, web pages: They use html and css for layout and javascript for events. Anybody who can write a web page can write a Dashboard application, and that is the most amazing thing. There has never been an Apple technology that enables so many developers to so easily write applications for the Mac.
weird wabbit
     
Developer
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: europe
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 02:30 PM
 
Originally posted by theolein:
Anybody who can write a web page can write a Dashboard application, and that is the most amazing thing.
That is true only for the most trivial Dashboard thingies. Anything non trivial requires both extensive knowledge in HTML, CSS etc. and programming knowledge in JavaScript and Cocoa. Don't expect Hinz and Kunz making their own Dashboard thingies.
Nasrudin sat on a river bank when someone shouted to him from the opposite side: "Hey! how do I get across?" "You are across!" Nasrudin shouted back.
     
itai195
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Cupertino, CA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 02:45 PM
 
Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
Any developer who comes up with a half-assed implementation of a very old idea has absolutely no room to gripe when Apple comes along and does it better. Especially when the original idea started with Apple in the first place.
How did you feel about Microsoft integrating IE into Windows? I don't necessarily feel Apple is ripping off anybody, since desktop accessories aren't an idea that originated with Konfabulator. But they're clearly stealing thunder from one of the platform's most popular third party applications. It's not a ripoff, it's not copying, and they're within their rights to do it (just as I feel Microsoft was with IE)... but they should've seen the PR backlash coming.
     
thunderous_funker
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Beautiful Downtown Portland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 02:50 PM
 
Originally posted by itai195:
..... but they should've seen the PR backlash coming.
Pehaps not. The outrage and the resulting backlash appears to be almost entirely based on total ignorace and jumping to conclusions based on superficial similarities.

Maybe Apple overestimated their public, but I'd rather they do that then tie their own hands for fear of angering the rabble.
"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die." -- Hunter S. Thompson
     
itai195
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Cupertino, CA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 02:55 PM
 
I agree t_f, I'd rather not tie Apple's hands. But it wouldn't have taken much effort for Apple to have completely avoided this issue and precluded the criticisms of pundits like Thurrott.
     
thunderous_funker
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Beautiful Downtown Portland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 03:02 PM
 
Originally posted by itai195:
I agree t_f, I'd rather not tie Apple's hands. But it wouldn't have taken much effort for Apple to have completely avoided this issue and precluded the criticisms of pundits like Thurrott.
The only thing I can think of would have been to have Jobs mention something to the effect of, "Hey, this might look familiar but let me tell you what we've done with a very old idea and to correct the mistakes of others...." Or something-or-other

But I'm not sure that would have mattered. If anything it might have fanned the flames.

Idiots like Thurrott are going to carp no matter what Apple does. I hardly think Apple needs waste any effort trying to appease the likes of him.
"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die." -- Hunter S. Thompson
     
Adam Betts
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: North Hollywood, CA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 03:03 PM
 
Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
Pehaps not. The outrage and the resulting backlash appears to be almost entirely based on total ignorace and jumping to conclusions based on superficial similarities.
Don't forget "fanboys". Tons of them on Konfab's side and it drives me crazy with their accusations and ass-kissing.

After reading some more interviews with Arlo Rose, he is indeed one big asshole and obviously isn't telling us the full story. He kept dodging the DAs and ActiveDesktop comparisons and still claim to be the inventor of widgets
     
starman
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Union County, NJ
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 03:08 PM
 
Not for nothing, but I when I started working on ResurrXtion, Panther's features hadn't been released yet. I finished the app the day before I got on the plane to go to WWDC. What do I see in the Energy System Pref of the Panther Dev Release? My app. Yeah, I got that sinking feeling for a sec, but I knew it was a matter of time before Apple put BACK into the OS what was in OS 9. Granted, it's not the kick-ass app that Konfab was, but it was still useful.

As stated here before, I think the problem was that the Konfab devs put all their eggs in one basket and ran with it. I don't agree with what Apple did considering the blatant similarities, but at the same time I'm not against what they did. I'm kinda on the fence about this.

Mike

Home - Twitter - Sig Wall-Retired - Flickr
     
Adam Betts
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: North Hollywood, CA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 03:11 PM
 
Originally posted by starman:
Not for nothing, but I when I started working on ResurrXtion, Panther's features hadn't been released yet. I finished the app the day before I got on the plane to go to WWDC. What do I see in the Energy System Pref of the Panther Dev Release? My app. Yeah, I got that sinking feeling for a sec, but I knew it was a matter of time before Apple put BACK into the OS what was in OS 9. Granted, it's not the kick-ass app that Konfab was, but it was still useful.
Yeah but the good thing out of this is that you gained some respect from people
     
thunderous_funker
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Beautiful Downtown Portland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 03:15 PM
 
Originally posted by starman:
I don't agree with what Apple did considering the blatant similarities, but at the same time I'm not against what they did. I'm kinda on the fence about this.

Mike
"blatant similarities"? Like what?

Just because the offer similar user experience (even that is debatable) doesn't make them all that similar.

If Dashboard is a rip off of Konfab, then Safari is a rip-off of IE and Mail is a rip-off of Eudora.

Honestly. At first I was troubled by the superficial similarities when I heard about Dashboard but that ended quite quickly as soon as the details about both products became available.
"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die." -- Hunter S. Thompson
     
Adam Betts
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: North Hollywood, CA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 03:24 PM
 
Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
"blatant similarities"? Like what?
I think he meant the look of widgets. Like Aqua rendered graphics in Calendar, Stock, etc.

That's the only similarities I can see.
     
starman
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Union County, NJ
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 03:27 PM
 
Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
"blatant similarities"? Like what?

Just because the offer similar user experience (even that is debatable) doesn't make them all that similar.

If Dashboard is a rip off of Konfab, then Safari is a rip-off of IE and Mail is a rip-off of Eudora.

Honestly. At first I was troubled by the superficial similarities when I heard about Dashboard but that ended quite quickly as soon as the details about both products became available.
Except that you could write IE in BASIC if you wanted to. To write Widgets on both sides, you use Javascript. Under the hood stuff is what I'm talking about along with the UI part, so that's TWO very major parts of "Widgets" that are the same. They could have used a Obj C++ API but instead they used Javascript, just like Konfab.

I have Tiger, but I haven't looked at the Dashboard API yet. I will tonight probably.

Mike

Home - Twitter - Sig Wall-Retired - Flickr
     
thunderous_funker
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Beautiful Downtown Portland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 03:34 PM
 
Originally posted by starman:
Except that you could write IE in BASIC if you wanted to. To write Widgets on both sides, you use Javascript. Under the hood stuff is what I'm talking about along with the UI part, so that's TWO very major parts of "Widgets" that are the same. They could have used a Obj C++ API but instead they used Javascript, just like Konfab.

I have Tiger, but I haven't looked at the Dashboard API yet. I will tonight probably.

Mike
Konfab is a proprietary javascript platform. Dashboard is an open API control panel for tiny web pages.

We've got some Javascript UI stuff for our database. Are we ripping off Konfab too?
"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die." -- Hunter S. Thompson
     
Krypton
Mac Elite
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Cambridge UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 04:16 PM
 
Another interesting point: Dashboard doesn't look like anything as such - it's just an interface of sorts.

The only thing Apple have really copied are the 'widgets' which are subject to change anyway.
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 06:01 PM
 
I can't help thinking that Steve's insistence on calling them "widgets", even though they're called "gadgets" in Tiger, right down to the .gadget name extension, was a dig at Arlo.

-s*
     
Zimphire
Baninated
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Moon
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 06:03 PM
 
Originally posted by Adam Betts:
Don't forget "fanboys". Tons of them on Konfab's side and it drives me crazy with their accusations and ass-kissing.

After reading some more interviews with Arlo Rose, he is indeed one big asshole and obviously isn't telling us the full story. He kept dodging the DAs and ActiveDesktop comparisons and still claim to be the inventor of widgets
You was around during the Kal days weren't you? He was the same way.
     
thunderous_funker
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Beautiful Downtown Portland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2004, 06:04 PM
 
Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
I can't help thinking that Steve's insistence on calling them "widgets", even though they're called "gadgets" in Tiger, right down to the .gadget name extension, was a dig at Arlo.

-s*
I can buy that. I thought maybe it was unintentional, but that seems unlikely.

Then again, maybe the whole "iMac. Paris. Birthday" theory demonstrates that we all take Steve's words way, way too literally.

"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die." -- Hunter S. Thompson
     
quandarry
Registered User
Join Date: May 2003
Location: between a rock and a hard place.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 3, 2004, 05:06 PM
 
arlo rose didn't coin the word widget, gadget, gidget or wadget.

widget has been used long before 'arlo baby sweetums'.

so when is arlo taking apple to court over copyright, patent infringement or is he gonna use the old excuse that we just don't have the money or whatever to go up against apple legal.

     
Tick
Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Feb 2004
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 3, 2004, 05:08 PM
 
     
iluvmypowerbook
Forum Regular
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Sydney, Australia
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 3, 2004, 05:31 PM
 
Originally posted by quandarry:
arlo rose didn't coin the word widget, gadget, gidget or wadget.

widget has been used long before 'arlo baby sweetums'.

so when is arlo taking apple to court over copyright, patent infringement or is he gonna use the old excuse that we just don't have the money or whatever to go up against apple legal.


I agree. Exactly my point earlier in this thread.
     
ambush  (op)
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: -
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 6, 2004, 01:06 AM
 
Arlo's Rebutal
I just want to take a moment to clear some stuff up.

A lot of places have been writing up the Konfabulator versus Dashboard story, and a lot of them are taking choice sound bites from interviews and using them to make me sound like I've... well... lost my mind.

First off, I was never fired from Apple. The group I worked for was laid off and I was given a chance to go work somewhere else inside Apple. I had been there for quite some time and was ready to move on, so I took a voluntary layoff package. It was my choice to leave.

Next, we've never said the word widget was our creation. The word widget has been around forever and then some, but what we did do is coin it as a term for a small user created application that was specific in purpose. It's our document type, and we do feel it was uncouth of Apple to co-opt it. Also note that I make a habit of capitalizing it in the context of a Konfabulator Widget as I feel that it's always been a proper noun in this usage.

Regarding the conspiracy theory about Konspos and prior knowledge of Dashboard, here's the scoop. We knew Dashboard was coming, and we'd been told by *many* people that it was being developed as a "Konfabulator Killer". We never knew the specifics of it other than it was rumored to be the exact same thing as Konfabulator integrated at the system level. We didn't know that it was going to be touted as part of Expos, and we didn't know that their format was going to be closer to a web page than a structured XML file.

As for Apple having Dashboard technology in Copland or Mac OS 9, they didn't. My idea for Konfabulator was born from wanting to have a really simple run-time environment for people to develop small specialized applications that could look and behave however they wanted. The key point being that it is up to the user to make the cool Widgets. The user would know what they needed, and the user could then create that. The concept had nothing in the slightest to do with Desk Accessories, and it had absolutely nothing to do with Active Desktop. It was about empowering the user to make their own little apps that did what they wanted.

But what about Desktop X, you ask? I have to be honest, as far as I'm aware Desktop X wasn't anything like Konfabulator until after Konfabulator came out. During development someone pointed us at their site, and all I saw was an app that let you run applets in a controlled windowed environment. Heck, even after we released Konfabulator 1.0 there was an article on their site talking about how their app needed to be more like Konfabulator because we had "gotten it right".

Mind you, I've never said we were the first to introduce the concept of little apps running on your desktop that are informative rather than functional, what I have said is that we were the first to come up with a run-time environment closely integrated into the system where you could build your own little apps with no prior knowledge of a complicated programming language.

I'm truly and deeply impressed by the support our customers have shown us the last few days, and I'm glad we have such an incredible user base.

We have no plans to stop working on Konfabulator, we have no plans to abandon the platform, but what we do plan to do is strengthen Konfabulator's feature set, continue to work toward our cross-platform solution, and develop unique software that people can't live without.
(timeline?)
     
iluvmypowerbook
Forum Regular
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Sydney, Australia
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 6, 2004, 02:26 AM
 
".....We knew Dashboard was coming, and we'd been told by *many* people that it was being developed as a "Konfabulator Killer..." ?



So despite the now back away by Arlo for earlier comments he still implies that Apple sought to put him out of business? I think not.

The simple fact is widgets have been around since Apple's first OS



"The word widget has been around forever and then some, but what we did do is coin it as a term for a small user created application that was specific in purpose. It's our document type, and we do feel it was uncouth of Apple to co-opt it. Also note that I make a habit of capitalizing it in the context of a Konfabulator Widget as I feel that it's always been a proper noun in this usage."



Big deal! So he used technology that Apple developed, made a simple application with it and now claims it as his own.

Get over it!

     
 
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:42 AM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,