Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Software - Troubleshooting and Discussion > macOS > Flipping widgets...flipping windows?

Flipping widgets...flipping windows?
Thread Tools
quandarry
Registered User
Join Date: May 2003
Location: between a rock and a hard place.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 3, 2004, 10:52 PM
 
i watched the keynote at the wwdc and job's demo of dashboard. i thought wow cool! the flipping widgets and using the back of the widget to set prefs and stuffs for that widget.

after awhile it hit me. why can't this be thru the whole system? flip a finder window to set the view and prefs for that window instead of going to a menu. i'm visualizing this for other stuffs too.

would this be cool and useful or am i just in braindead mode?
     
zachs
Mac Elite
Join Date: May 2002
Location: New York City
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 3, 2004, 10:56 PM
 
That would make sense for setting preferences for individual windows. Finder windows would be a great use of this. Rather than choosing between "All Windows" and "This Window" in View Options, you could have individual window prefs on the back of that window, and global options in a separate window.
     
Horsepoo!!!
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2003
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 3, 2004, 10:58 PM
 
That's a neat idea. But...I think it's a bit too far-fetched to become a reality.
     
kman42
Professional Poster
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: San Francisco
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 4, 2004, 01:12 AM
 
Sun's 3D desktop does this. It's just an R&D thing though and I'm not sure if it will ever actually be released. I saw a demo of it on the web somewhere, but I don't have a link. Sorry.

kman
     
wataru
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 4, 2004, 01:16 AM
 
Please no...
     
moki
Ambrosia - el Presidente
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Rochester, NY
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 4, 2004, 01:28 AM
 
Well, the "flip" is really just a series simple affine transformations, so in theory developers could roll their own and do this, if Apple doesn't provide an API. Hardware accelerated too. Yay.
Andrew Welch / el Presidente / Ambrosia Software, Inc.
     
quandarry  (op)
Registered User
Join Date: May 2003
Location: between a rock and a hard place.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 4, 2004, 01:57 AM
 
Originally posted by kman42:
Sun's 3D desktop does this. It's just an R&D thing though and I'm not sure if it will ever actually be released. I saw a demo of it on the web somewhere, but I don't have a link. Sorry.

kman
damed if it doesn't...

http://wwws.sun.com/software/looking_glass/details.html

but i think apple could do a better job and the ripples would be neat.

for those who might not like it it could be turned off.
     
moonmonkey
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Australia, the greatest country in the world, (Australians keep telling me).
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 4, 2004, 02:09 AM
 
Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
That's a neat idea. But...I think it's a bit too far-fetched to become a reality.
[patronising] you might want to rethink that one. [/patronising]

Dashboard seems like a test, they want to see how people resond to this.
Steve demoed it to guage the reaction, its very cool, now he knows that it, i'm pretty sure it will be wrapped into the 10.4 finder before release.

What's even cooler is that it works with non core image compatible machines like old iBooks and iMacs.
     
akuma-x
Forum Regular
Join Date: Feb 2003
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 4, 2004, 05:05 AM
 
Originally posted by moonmonkey:

What's even cooler is that it works with non core image compatible machines like old iBooks and iMacs. [/B]
you might want to rethink that one.

You only get core image effects if you have a video card that has programable pixel shaders.

ie, ATI 9600 or higher and Nivida FX and higher.
     
curmi
Senior User
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Victoria, Australia
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 4, 2004, 06:06 AM
 
I like the idea. But I can see numerous problems.

It does mean you can't see the effect your changes make when you make them. For example, suppose the Finder used this for view options (on a particular window). When you changed icon size, you couldn't see the icons resize. Changing background colours means you won't see the effect.

Also, with windows like the finder, the shape varies. What if there are more options than fit in that small window someone uses? Do they flip and grow/reshape as they flip, then shrink on the flip back?

So this would mean reduced user feedback, which means reduced usability. But it would look cool.
     
moonmonkey
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Australia, the greatest country in the world, (Australians keep telling me).
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 4, 2004, 06:57 AM
 
Originally posted by akuma-x:
you might want to rethink that one.

You only get core image effects if you have a video card that has programable pixel shaders.

ie, ATI 9600 or higher and Nivida FX and higher.
not true.

it works perfectly on my stock iMac 700 with crappy gForce 2 card (thats why I said so).

I am not halucinating the spinning windows.
     
mdc
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: NY²
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 4, 2004, 09:30 AM
 
Originally posted by curmi:
I like the idea. But I can see numerous problems.

It does mean you can't see the effect your changes make when you make them. For example, suppose the Finder used this for view options (on a particular window). When you changed icon size, you couldn't see the icons resize. Changing background colours means you won't see the effect.

Also, with windows like the finder, the shape varies. What if there are more options than fit in that small window someone uses? Do they flip and grow/reshape as they flip, then shrink on the flip back?

So this would mean reduced user feedback, which means reduced usability. But it would look cool.
that is true. flip it over, change icon size, flip it back to see what it looks like. repeat until satisfactory.

it would be neat if apple could think of something though, since this would be very neat.
     
ShotgunEd
Mac Elite
Join Date: Nov 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 4, 2004, 09:49 AM
 
Originally posted by akuma-x:
you might want to rethink that one.

You only get core image effects if you have a video card that has programable pixel shaders.

ie, ATI 9600 or higher and Nivida FX and higher.
The effects work, they just aren't accelerated by the graphics card.
     
dr. zoidberg
Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: planet express
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 4, 2004, 09:57 AM
 
i woud think flipping would work (accelerated) with any quartz extreme compatible card ... there's really no need for core* driving some high end GPU for this.
"And Zapp Brannigan, your score qualifies you as assistant delivery boy, second class."
"Hmm. I guess I'll have to sleep my way to the top. Kif, wake me when I'm there."
     
Horsepoo!!!
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2003
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 4, 2004, 09:58 AM
 
Originally posted by mdc:
that is true. flip it over, change icon size, flip it back to see what it looks like. repeat until satisfactory.

it would be neat if apple could think of something though, since this would be very neat.
The better solution would be the drawer. I have yet to see one single carbon app use drawers. People have been claiming it's possible. I've just never seen it.

A lot of developers have not followed the guidelines and made drawers look like the UI element from Hell by misusing them. Even Apple is guilty of this. Mail should have it's mailboxes in a sidebar like the Finder, Address Book and iTunes if Apple wanted to stay consistant. Or at least use the new 'source' list highlight.
     
ShotgunEd
Mac Elite
Join Date: Nov 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 4, 2004, 10:03 AM
 
Originally posted by dr. zoidberg:
i woud think flipping would work (accelerated) with any quartz extreme compatible card ... there's really no need for core* driving some high end GPU for this.
Probably true.

The rippling is probably a core image thing though.

I've been thinking about this, if the little pill in the corner of finder windows (and any application window) flipped the window around and the prefs were set there, like some people have suggested, i think it'd be great.

If individual finder windows remembered the settings this would be a great feature.
     
posthumanus
Senior User
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: melbourne, australia
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 4, 2004, 10:13 AM
 
there's 2 sides to every page, right?

right now i could hit F8 and flip this safari window to see thumbnails of all my other (safari) windows open

my budget spreadsheets, calculator gadget, loan organiser, stock tickertape (if i get one) bank log-in sites ect, could all be as thumbnails on the flipside of each part; like a mini-finder

iTunes could have all my album covers on the flipside: an alternative way to browse

and hitting one thumbnail could automatically flip it back

i hearby name it "flipside"

or am i getting carried away? cause i've got no idea whether this can be done or not

posthumanus
     
Horsepoo!!!
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2003
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 4, 2004, 10:26 AM
 
Those are rather bad ideas if you ask me. As much fun as seeing windows flipping is, it's not a good UI concept because you're essentially at least two actions away from something that can be done in one. Flipping the window prevents people from seeing what they've changed on the other side of the window as well as wastes time (clicking an element to flip the window, make changes, flip the window back).

The day Apple adds things like this to the OS is the day they've gone overboard with the eyecandy and dropped all reason.

Not long ago people were laughing at and teasing Microsoft after their Longhorn tech demo. The demo had waving, flipping and rotating windows as a demo of what the OS *could* do. Now, all of a sudden, it's ok for Apple to do this?

Instead of trying to find uses for piles and flipping windows, spend a few minutes to think about the problems they bring.
     
kman42
Professional Poster
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: San Francisco
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 4, 2004, 01:13 PM
 
What if there was a slightly transparent aspect to the window when you flipped it so that you could see the result of your actions on the other side (and in reverse )? Similar to how you can see through a piece of paper: just barely transparent so it doesn't obstruct the preferences, but still allows you to see what you've done.

Anyone with some photoshop skills want to make a mock-up?

kman
     
Chuckit
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 4, 2004, 04:55 PM
 
Originally posted by kman42:
What if there was a slightly transparent aspect to the window when you flipped it so that you could see the result of your actions on the other side (and in reverse )?
It still presents more problems than a simple sheet besides raising more technical questions as well (e.g. as somebody pointed out, Dashboard widgets can't be resized while windows can).
Chuck
___
"Instead of either 'multi-talented' or 'multitalented' use 'bisexual'."
     
moki
Ambrosia - el Presidente
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Rochester, NY
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 4, 2004, 05:22 PM
 
Originally posted by akuma-x:
you might want to rethink that one.

You only get core image effects if you have a video card that has programable pixel shaders.

ie, ATI 9600 or higher and Nivida FX and higher.
No, that's not the case. CoreImage has its own runtime for cards that do not support programable pixel shaders. It's nicely altivec accelerated too.

Some people are confused because the ripple effect is disabled on machines without recent video cards. This is not because CoreImage can't do the effects, it's a design choice in Dashboard (currently).
Andrew Welch / el Presidente / Ambrosia Software, Inc.
     
Rmh1572
Fresh-Faced Recruit
Join Date: Mar 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 4, 2004, 05:52 PM
 
I don't believe the finder or any app will get the flipping functionality(at least for prefs) because they are actual apps. Dashboard widgets actually dashboard itself does not get a menu bar. It is a collection of apps. It would be very confusing on which widget would be represented in the menu bar. Therefore, there is no place to put the prefs because each widget has its own prefs . Apple decided that flipping the widget and placing the prefs on the back would be the solution. I think there are probably restrictions for widgets such as the suggested resizing that will make the problems presented less of a problem or irrelevant.
( Last edited by Rmh1572; Jul 4, 2004 at 05:57 PM. )
     
akuma-x
Forum Regular
Join Date: Feb 2003
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 4, 2004, 06:03 PM
 
Originally posted by moonmonkey:
not true.

it works perfectly on my stock iMac 700 with crappy gForce 2 card (thats why I said so).

I am not halucinating the spinning windows.
I'm sorry. you are correct, the flipping does work on none programable pixel shader cards.
But that flipping is not using a programable pixel shader and that is why it works.
the ripple effects and things that use programable pixel shaders do not work thou.
So if you do not have a video card that has programable pixel shaders you will not get all of the effects. At least thats how it is right now in the WWDC preview.
     
curmi
Senior User
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Victoria, Australia
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 4, 2004, 07:45 PM
 
Originally posted by Chuckit:
It still presents more problems than a simple sheet besides raising more technical questions as well (e.g. as somebody pointed out, Dashboard widgets can't be resized while windows can).
And sheets present more of a problem than a simple window, since they obscure what is behind the window (potentially) and are modal for that window.

So basically what Apple does generally now (a separate window) is the best in terms of usability, but is unfortunately the less visually interesting solution.
     
alphamatrix
Senior User
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Mount Vernon, WA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 4, 2004, 10:35 PM
 
The after-install setup app that the build I installed used the the flip effect to change from page to page.
     
Horsepoo!!!
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2003
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 4, 2004, 11:16 PM
 
Originally posted by alphamatrix:
The after-install setup app that the build I installed used the the flip effect to change from page to page.
Hehe...that gives me an idea for a Dashboard gadget. An e-book reader that looks like an open book and displays the text of an e-book document on the book's pages. Clicking the page corners flips the pages using that flip effect. That would be neato.
     
curmi
Senior User
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Victoria, Australia
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 5, 2004, 12:07 AM
 
Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
Hehe...that gives me an idea for a Dashboard gadget. An e-book reader that looks like an open book and displays the text of an e-book document on the book's pages. Clicking the page corners flips the pages using that flip effect. That would be neato.
So why would this be better as a gadget rather than an OS X application?
     
RooneyX
Mac Elite
Join Date: Mar 2003
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 5, 2004, 12:11 AM
 
It would be nice if all apps zoomed away off screen and zoomed back on screen like Dashboard when you chose Hide.
     
Chuckit
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 5, 2004, 12:41 AM
 
Originally posted by curmi:
So why would this be better as a gadget rather than an OS X application?
Because gadgets are completely exempt from the HIG, whereas applications have to make some attempt to look respectable.
Chuck
___
"Instead of either 'multi-talented' or 'multitalented' use 'bisexual'."
     
curmi
Senior User
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Victoria, Australia
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 5, 2004, 02:34 AM
 
Originally posted by Chuckit:
Because gadgets are completely exempt from the HIG, whereas applications have to make some attempt to look respectable.


This is in fact a bit of a worry though. With no HIG for gadgets, we'll end up with a mess of interfaces like the Linux world.
     
Chris O'Brien
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hebburn, UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 5, 2004, 09:20 AM
 
Originally posted by Chuckit:
It still presents more problems than a simple sheet besides raising more technical questions as well (e.g. as somebody pointed out, Dashboard widgets can't be resized while windows can).
Gadgets can be resized - it's just up to the gadget's author to write their own method for resizing them, as far as I can tell.
Just who are Britain? What do they? Who is them? And why?

Formerly Black Book
     
tooki
Admin Emeritus
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 5, 2004, 02:03 PM
 
Originally posted by kman42:
Sun's 3D desktop does this. It's just an R&D thing though and I'm not sure if it will ever actually be released. I saw a demo of it on the web somewhere, but I don't have a link. Sorry.
QuickTime demo of it: http://webcast-east.sun.com/archives...312_forjds.mov

it's damned slick. I think it would be awesome if Apple put 3D functionality in.

tooki
     
demograph68
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jul 2003
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 6, 2004, 01:59 AM
 
Tooki, you have just made my day! So lets talk 10.5...
     
   
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:58 PM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,