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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Bush said, "I made it very plan: We will not have an all-volunteer army."

Bush said, "I made it very plan: We will not have an all-volunteer army."
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hyteckit
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Oct 17, 2004, 12:09 AM
 
Anyone heard this? I was just reading an article on CNN, and it seems in the back of Bush's mind, a draft might be in the plans.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...ain/index.html
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RAILhead
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Oct 17, 2004, 08:57 AM
 
Originally posted by hyteckit:
Anyone heard this? I was just reading an article on CNN, and it seems in the back of Bush's mind, a draft might be in the plans.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...ain/index.html
Don't worry, Bucky, there won't be a draft -- but MTV (bastion of fair and balanced politics that it is) and Kerry are still saying there will be. But Bush said it in the debate, and he's said several times since: NO DRAFT.

Maury
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That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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Anders
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Oct 17, 2004, 09:02 AM
 
Read my lips: No new draft.
Bush lost the first debate because Kerry brought his own pen
     
Spliffdaddy
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Oct 17, 2004, 09:19 AM
 
Although I wish they would draft *all* 18-24 year old kids. It would alleviate some of the congestion downtown - and cut down on unemployment.
     
chabig
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Oct 17, 2004, 10:18 AM
 
The democrats are the only ones bringing up the topic of a draft. Then, the media runs to Bush and asks about it so he is forced to repond. It is nothing more than a democratic scare tactic to try to get you to vote for them. The United States will not have a draft, which is exactly what the President said.

Chris
     
spacefreak
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Oct 17, 2004, 10:27 AM
 
Originally posted by chabig:
The democrats are the only ones bringing up the topic of a draft. Then, the media runs to Bush and asks about it so he is forced to repond. It is nothing more than a democratic scare tactic to try to get you to vote for them. The United States will not have a draft, which is exactly what the President said.
So true. Kerry has no chance winning on the issues, so the DNC has to rely on scare tactics to even have a chance.
     
winwintoo
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Oct 17, 2004, 10:45 AM
 
Having a draft again would disrupt your whole economy. All the kids of poor parents would be drafted, all the kids of rich parents would be able to avoid it just like they always have and where would the little b_tards buy their drugs!

....and the ones that couldn't buy their way out would come to Canada again. Not sure we want them.

Our beef is no good, we're blamed for everything, you think you own our water, you denigrate our health care system and then want to take advantage of deals we negotiated for prescription drugs, and now you're lining up at the border to get flu shots and b*tching 'cuz we think they should go first to the people who paid for them - that would be us.

I've been watching this whole election thing and getting more and more disgruntled. Does your government even care about anything within your own borders?? It seems like your whole focus is outside - how you can "police" the world and "bring democracy" to the world. Isn't that what nations did way back in the 1600s only then they were called "conquerers"

I think it's time the world put a stop to this madness. The UN inspectors should wade into the USA and find the weapons of mass destruction and if you refuse to disarm, then an assault should be mounted immediately. You are a danger to the free world.

Have a nice day M
     
The Oracle
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Oct 17, 2004, 11:05 AM
 
Originally posted by winwintoo:
Our beef is no good, we're blamed for everything, you think you own our water, you denigrate our health care system and then want to take advantage of deals we negotiated for prescription drugs, and now you're lining up at the border to get flu shots and b*tching 'cuz we think they should go first to the people who paid for them - that would be us.

I've been watching this whole election thing and getting more and more disgruntled. Does your government even care about anything within your own borders?? It seems like your whole focus is outside - how you can "police" the world and "bring democracy" to the world. Isn't that what nations did way back in the 1600s only then they were called "conquerers"

I think it's time the world put a stop to this madness. The UN inspectors should wade into the USA and find the weapons of mass destruction and if you refuse to disarm, then an assault should be mounted immediately. You are a danger to the free world.

Have a nice day M
F-R-E-A-K. Have a nice day.

All-seeing and all-knowing since 2000 B.C.
     
strictlyplaid
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Oct 17, 2004, 12:12 PM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Although I wish they would draft *all* 18-24 year old kids. It would alleviate some of the congestion downtown - and cut down on unemployment.
Any time something becomes compulsory, its quality immediately drops by a factor of 10. Just imagine: a military that is as efficient and well-managed as your average American high school!

My dad (a former Navy officer) thinks there won't be a draft for that reason alone: our military's quality would go through the floor almost immediately. The military needs the energy of people who want to be there, and the flexibility to boot out those who can't perform (and reward those who do!) to succeed... so goes the thinking.

Then again, if the need for large numbers of rifle-toting warm bodies is there, the draft will be a temptation. Honestly, in Iraq we probably need that -- just to handle security needs. How smart or motivated do you have to be to guard a warehouse with an M-16?
     
davesimondotcom
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Oct 17, 2004, 01:27 PM
 
Considering re-instating a draft would require tha action of Congress...
Considering Congress recently voted down a bill doing just that by over 400 votes...
Considering it was Democrats who introduced said bill...
Considering the professional military is doing a great job...
Considering the military is currently reaching recruitment goals...
Considering it was Kerry, not Bush, who wants to send two more divisions into Iraq...
Considering it was Kerry, not Bush, who had two years of manditory service for teenagers in his "plan" (then has removed that from his website)...

I just have this to say to the scaremongers trying to talk up this phantom draft...

STFU!
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CRASH HARDDRIVE
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Oct 17, 2004, 01:52 PM
 
Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
*snip*
I just have this to say to the scaremongers trying to talk up this phantom draft...

STFU!
Amen.
     
icruise
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Oct 17, 2004, 02:32 PM
 
Originally posted by spacefreak:
So true. Kerry has no chance winning on the issues, so the DNC has to rely on scare tactics to even have a chance.
Yeah, it's a good thing the GOP never resorts to scare tactics instead of winning on issues...
     
mikellanes
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Oct 17, 2004, 02:49 PM
 
Originally posted by RAILhead:
Don't worry, Bucky, there won't be a draft -- but MTV (bastion of fair and balanced politics that it is) and Kerry are still saying there will be. But Bush said it in the debate, and he's said several times since: NO DRAFT.

Maury
"I made it very plain: We will not have an all-volunteer army." "Doh!"

     
mitchell_pgh
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Oct 17, 2004, 02:54 PM
 
     
nredman
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Oct 17, 2004, 02:56 PM
 
Originally posted by Icruise:
Yeah, it's a good thing the GOP never resorts to scare tactics instead of winning on issues...
nope, never

"I'm for anything that gets you through the night, be it prayer, tranquilizers, or a bottle of Jack Daniel's."
     
Anders
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Oct 17, 2004, 03:11 PM
 
Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
Bush lost the first debate because Kerry brought his own pen
     
Atomic Rooster
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Oct 17, 2004, 04:03 PM
 
That's the problem with Bush. You can't tell if he's lying or if he's a stupid moron or both.
     
vmpaul
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Oct 17, 2004, 05:03 PM
 
If Bush's main strategy in the WoT is to invade and occupy (a la Iraq), then he's not going to have any choice but to reinstitute the draft. We just don't have the personnel. It's the logical consequence of his policies.

Would anyone be surprised to see Syria, Iran, or North Korea preemptively attacked in a 2nd Bush term? If that doesn't happen then there's no need to increase troop strength.
The only thing that I am reasonably sure of is that anybody who's got an ideology has stopped thinking. - Arthur Miller
     
winwintoo
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Oct 17, 2004, 05:13 PM
 
Originally posted by The Oracle:
F-R-E-A-K. Have a nice day.
The Oracle thinks I'm a freak - what did I say that was incorrect??

Can't you people see where your country is headed??

m
     
OldManMac
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Oct 17, 2004, 05:17 PM
 
Originally posted by vmpaul:
If Bush's main strategy in the WoT is to invade and occupy (a la Iraq), then he's not going to have any choice but to reinstitute the draft. We just don't have the personnel. It's the logical consequence of his policies.

Would anyone be surprised to see Syria, Iran, or North Korea preemptively attacked in a 2nd Bush term? If that doesn't happen then there's no need to increase troop strength.
Exactly. Besides, it's not like Dubya has never broken a promise. Rove, Cheney, Jeb Bush, et. al., are drooling all over each other at the prospect of a second Dubya term, so they can put on their shiny black boots, and "democratize" all the oil producing countries, because it's "best" for them.
Why is there always money for war, but none for education?
     
chris v
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Oct 17, 2004, 07:43 PM
 
We have a Different Kind of Draft. I know a 22-year-old who (trust me, he's a screw-up) has had a few run-ins with the law (mostly failure to appear, because he's a complete goddam slacker). He has just been offered a deal: 5 years in prison, or 4 in the Army.

When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
     
BlueSky
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Oct 17, 2004, 07:46 PM
 
Originally posted by winwintoo:
Can't you people see where your country is headed??
About half of us can; the rest support Bush.
( Last edited by Bluesky; Oct 17, 2004 at 08:19 PM. )
     
Spliffdaddy
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Oct 17, 2004, 07:59 PM
 
Originally posted by winwintoo:
The Oracle thinks I'm a freak - what did I say that was incorrect??

Can't you people see where your country is headed??

m
Well, currently we're number one.

and from the looks of the rest of the world, we'll be number one for a damn long time.


We would take your advice - but you're from a lower ranked country...and there would be nothing to learn.

Look us up when you're number one. Maybe we'll talk then.
     
BlueSky
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Oct 17, 2004, 08:21 PM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Well, currently we're number one.

and from the looks of the rest of the world, we'll be number one for a damn long time.


We would take your advice - but you're from a lower ranked country...and there would be nothing to learn.

Look us up when you're number one. Maybe we'll talk then.
Excellent example of why so much of the world hates the US. Way to go.
     
djohnson
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Oct 17, 2004, 09:53 PM
 
I guess no one actually reads these things...

Insisting that he has no plans to institute a draft, and that any suggestions of a possible draft are a Democratic scare tactic, Bush said, "I made it very plain: We will not have an all-volunteer army."

He quickly followed with, "Let me restate that: We will not have a draft."
     
angaq0k
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Oct 17, 2004, 09:58 PM
 
Originally posted by RAILhead:
Don't worry, Bucky, there won't be a draft -- but MTV (bastion of fair and balanced politics that it is) and Kerry are still saying there will be. But Bush said it in the debate, and he's said several times since: NO DRAFT.

Maury
I remember Bush Senior say this:

Read my lips: no more taxes.
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
angaq0k
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Oct 17, 2004, 10:00 PM
 
Originally posted by chris v:
We have a Different Kind of Draft. I know a 22-year-old who (trust me, he's a screw-up) has had a few run-ins with the law (mostly failure to appear, because he's a complete goddam slacker). He has just been offered a deal: 5 years in prison, or 4 in the Army.
Aren't US soldiers sent to their death for futile wars these days anyway?
"******* politics is for the ******* moment. ******** equations are for ******** Eternity." ******** Albert Einstein
     
Spliffdaddy
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Oct 17, 2004, 10:02 PM
 
Originally posted by Bluesky:
Excellent example of why so much of the world hates the US. Way to go.
Much like the loser always hates the winner.
     
icruise
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Oct 17, 2004, 10:09 PM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Much like the loser always hates the winner.
No, my friend. The very idea that there can be a "winner" is what is wrong with your philosophy.
     
OldManMac
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Oct 17, 2004, 10:12 PM
 
Originally posted by djohnson:
I guess no one actually reads these things...
And I guess that there are still some people who believe that just because he says it, he's going to keep his word.
Why is there always money for war, but none for education?
     
Spliffdaddy
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Oct 17, 2004, 10:13 PM
 
Originally posted by Icruise:
No, my friend. The very idea that there can be a "winner" is what is wrong with your philosophy.

We'll just pretend that envy doesn't exist.

That way you can be right.
     
RAILhead
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Oct 17, 2004, 11:27 PM
 
Originally posted by KarlG:
And I guess that there are still some people who believe that just because he says it, he's going to keep his word.
...and you think Kerry would?

I've heard it all, now.



Maury
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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OldManMac
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Oct 17, 2004, 11:33 PM
 
Did I say anything about Kerry? Why don't you bring Clinton into it, as well? I've already seen four years of lies, which have cost this country too many dead, over a war which is illegal. Now go ahead and do your rolleyes thing again. I don't particulary like Kerry, but I really dislike Bush, so I'm willing to give Kerry a chance. And you're wrong; you haven't heard it all yet. There are no doubt lots more lies coming from Bush, and apparently you're eagerly waiting to hear some more.
Why is there always money for war, but none for education?
     
BRussell
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Oct 17, 2004, 11:44 PM
 
OK, he says there will be no draft. It's never been plausible anyway. But I think it's fair to ask about the logical consequences of his policies. He says he wants to fight a military war on terror, as opposed to Kerry's "law enforcement" approach. OK. And he says we need to stay in Iraq to see it through. OK. So how do we do that, while maintaining the ability to respond to other threats? The fact is, we can't. OK, we won't have a draft. But something has to give.

This is a pattern. He says we can have a big tax cut, but he continues to spend like mad. He says we can privatize a portion of social security while maintaining current benefits. The fact is, we can't continue to do those things. Something has to give. He called it "fuzzy math" on the part of Gore in 2000. It wasn't fuzzy at all. It was just people calling him out on the logical implications of his policies.
     
OldManMac
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Oct 18, 2004, 12:10 AM
 
No, no; you're wrong. Don't you know that we can have our cake and eat it too, and that there really is such a thing as a free lunch? I mean, half the population believes that; so many people can't be wrong, can they?
Why is there always money for war, but none for education?
     
vmpaul
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Oct 18, 2004, 12:24 AM
 
Originally posted by BRussell:
OK, he says there will be no draft. It's never been plausible anyway. But I think it's fair to ask about the logical consequences of his policies. He says he wants to fight a military war on terror, as opposed to Kerry's "law enforcement" approach. OK. And he says we need to stay in Iraq to see it through. OK. So how do we do that, while maintaining the ability to respond to other threats? The fact is, we can't. OK, we won't have a draft. But something has to give.

This is a pattern. He says we can have a big tax cut, but he continues to spend like mad. He says we can privatize a portion of social security while maintaining current benefits. The fact is, we can't continue to do those things. Something has to give. He called it "fuzzy math" on the part of Gore in 2000. It wasn't fuzzy at all. It was just people calling him out on the logical implications of his policies.
Well said.
The only thing that I am reasonably sure of is that anybody who's got an ideology has stopped thinking. - Arthur Miller
     
UR-20
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Oct 18, 2004, 01:41 PM
 
Originally posted by spacefreak:
So true. Kerry has no chance winning on the issues, so the DNC has to rely on scare tactics to even have a chance.

Yes and Bush constantly claiming that only he can protect us from the terrorists isn't a scare tactic in the least.
     
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Oct 18, 2004, 02:13 PM
 
Originally posted by angaq0k:
I remember Bush Senior say this:

Read my lips: no more taxes.
And Kerry basically was cornered in to saying the same thing during a debate... and he fielded that question wonderfully...
     
chris v
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Oct 18, 2004, 02:14 PM
 
We don't need a draft. We need a large underclass with little or no opportunity, except for military service. That appears to be more the program. Push people into poverty, close "entitlements," because of the "tax gap," then swarm poor neighborhoods with recruiters who tell the high-school age kids what a marvelous opportunity the Army presents to help them out of poverty. Then, send them off to fight wars of attrition against hostile economies.

Hey, I'm beginning to sound like Lerkifsh! Go me!

When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
     
Naplander
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Oct 18, 2004, 02:16 PM
 
KEEPING THE PEACE - WITH FORCE
     
davesimondotcom
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Oct 18, 2004, 02:21 PM
 
Originally posted by chris v:
We have a Different Kind of Draft. I know a 22-year-old who (trust me, he's a screw-up) has had a few run-ins with the law (mostly failure to appear, because he's a complete goddam slacker). He has just been offered a deal: 5 years in prison, or 4 in the Army.
This is not new.

First, it's because of his own choices that he ended up with that choice. Second, my father-in-law was given a similar choice. He was a screwup who was quite literally run out of Jackson Hole, WY and told to never come back. He was given a choice between jail and the Marines. He became a jarhead.

Years later, after the Marines straightened him out, finished with college and with a few years professional experience under his belt, he went back to Jackson Hole - hired as the CEO of their local electric co-op.

He still thinks the judge who gave him that choice saved/changed his life. And he's thankful. Maybe your friend will be too.
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mitchell_pgh
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Oct 18, 2004, 02:22 PM
 
Originally posted by BRussell:
OK, he says there will be no draft. It's never been plausible anyway. But I think it's fair to ask about the logical consequences of his policies. He says he wants to fight a military war on terror, as opposed to Kerry's "law enforcement" approach. OK. And he says we need to stay in Iraq to see it through. OK. So how do we do that, while maintaining the ability to respond to other threats? The fact is, we can't. OK, we won't have a draft. But something has to give.

This is a pattern. He says we can have a big tax cut, but he continues to spend like mad. He says we can privatize a portion of social security while maintaining current benefits. The fact is, we can't continue to do those things. Something has to give. He called it "fuzzy math" on the part of Gore in 2000. It wasn't fuzzy at all. It was just people calling him out on the logical implications of his policies.
I would argue that there are also implausible characteristics regarding Kerry.
- Cut the deficit by 1/2
- No new taxes for the middle class
- Larger, more supplied, military and larger special forces
- More jobs in the USA
- Better healthcare for more people
- Improved education
- Improved economic stimulation
- Improved social security

Talk about "Something has to give"... I'm just afraid it's going to be all of those...

We all know how efficient big government is...
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Oct 18, 2004, 02:23 PM
 
Originally posted by chris v:
We don't need a draft. We need a large underclass with little or no opportunity, except for military service. That appears to be more the program. Push people into poverty, close "entitlements," because of the "tax gap," then swarm poor neighborhoods with recruiters who tell the high-school age kids what a marvelous opportunity the Army presents to help them out of poverty. Then, send them off to fight wars of attrition against hostile economies.

Hey, I'm beginning to sound like Lerkifsh! Go me!
You know, I find this rather insulting when liberals pull the "you only go into the army out of desperation" thing. It's very condescending of you.
     
mitchell_pgh
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Oct 18, 2004, 02:38 PM
 
Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
This is not new.

First, it's because of his own choices that he ended up with that choice. Second, my father-in-law was given a similar choice. He was a screwup who was quite literally run out of Jackson Hole, WY and told to never come back. He was given a choice between jail and the Marines. He became a jarhead.

Years later, after the Marines straightened him out, finished with college and with a few years professional experience under his belt, he went back to Jackson Hole - hired as the CEO of their local electric co-op.

He still thinks the judge who gave him that choice saved/changed his life. And he's thankful. Maybe your friend will be too.
I totally agree.

1) It's not like they are rounding up citizens off of the streets and giving them the same option of Jail or Military Service.

2) This person owes society. He must pay in time in jail or service to his country.

3) They aren't forcing him to enlist. They gave him an option.

I think the reason you are so upset is because the obvious choice would be military service. Only a fool would choose to go to jail over military service. One has a future and one destroys your future.

For me, I would thank the judge for giving me a choice. Can you even imagine FIVE YEARS in jail!!!

Plus, the odds of dying in Iraq is less then 0.5%
     
mitchell_pgh
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Oct 18, 2004, 02:48 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
You know, I find this rather insulting when liberals pull the "you only go into the army out of desperation" thing. It's very condescending of you.
Yah, didn't you know that only gullible poverty stricken fools join the military.

Oh, and it will get you nowhere...
     
itai195
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Oct 18, 2004, 02:54 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
You know, I find this rather insulting when liberals pull the "you only go into the army out of desperation" thing. It's very condescending of you.
I'm sympathetic to you here, but I can't just ignore the obvious demographic contrast between the military population and the general population. I wouldn't say that people generally go into the army out of desperation, though it's interesting that mitchell and davesimon just defended the proposition of someone going into the military to avoid jail time. Isn't that desperation?
     
chris v
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Oct 18, 2004, 02:55 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
You know, I find this rather insulting when liberals pull the "you only go into the army out of desperation" thing. It's very condescending of you.
Where did I say "only"? Sure, lots and lots of rich people join the army, because it's the right thing to do. Lots of 'em. really. Lots.

Okay, maybe a few.

When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
     
chris v
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Oct 18, 2004, 02:57 PM
 
Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
This is not new.

First, it's because of his own choices that he ended up with that choice. Second, my father-in-law was given a similar choice. He was a screwup who was quite literally run out of Jackson Hole, WY and told to never come back. He was given a choice between jail and the Marines. He became a jarhead.

Years later, after the Marines straightened him out, finished with college and with a few years professional experience under his belt, he went back to Jackson Hole - hired as the CEO of their local electric co-op.

He still thinks the judge who gave him that choice saved/changed his life. And he's thankful. Maybe your friend will be too.
He didn't die.

Odds aren't looking so great these days. One in a hundred in Iraq, more or less. What are the odds of getting killed in prison?

When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
     
chris v
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Oct 18, 2004, 02:59 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
You know, I find this rather insulting when liberals pull the "you only go into the army out of desperation" thing. It's very condescending of you.
Go ahead and deny that recruiters are a whole lot more active on school campuses in working-class/poor areas.

When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
     
djohnson
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Oct 18, 2004, 03:04 PM
 
Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
I would argue that there are also implausible characteristics regarding Kerry.
- Cut the deficit by 1/2
- No new taxes for the middle class
- Larger, more supplied, military and larger special forces
- More jobs in the USA
- Better healthcare for more people
- Improved education
- Improved economic stimulation
- Improved social security

Talk about "Something has to give"... I'm just afraid it's going to be all of those...

We all know how efficient big government is...
I still want to know how Kerry would plan on paying for such things. If Bush says those things, he is a liar. If Kerry says them, they must be true!
     
 
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