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Sick of Immigrants that .... (Page 2)
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aberdeenwriter
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Dec 11, 2004, 02:57 PM
 
Originally posted by Joshua:
Sheesh. Are you for real?
Oh, come on Joshua. Cody's comment isn't at all surprising or out of line and if you listen to Sean Hannity or Glenn Beck or any conservative commentators, they are saying the same if not worse.
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chris v
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Dec 11, 2004, 03:03 PM
 
Originally posted by Randman:
Ask an American Indian about immigrants.

You all suck. Get out.

When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
     
CreepingDeth
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Dec 11, 2004, 03:04 PM
 
Originally posted by aberdeenwriter:
Oh, come on Joshua. Cody's comment isn't at all surprising or out of line and if you listen to Sean Hannity or Glenn Beck or any conservative commentators, they are saying the same if not worse.
Savage isn't as aprtisan or as…uh…calm as those others.

His point was that illegal immigration is a threat and that more has to be done to stop the parasitic use of government funds.
     
winwintoo
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Dec 11, 2004, 03:08 PM
 
Have we all lost sight of the fact that this thread was originally about Asian immigrants and their driving abilities in Vancouver, British Columbia, CANADA.

Canada being a sovereign country separate and apart from the United States of America, having it's own government duly elected by the people of Canada.

It amuses me that any attempt to discuss a uniquely Canadian problem gets sidetracked into a discussion of problems south of the border.

I know there aren't as many of us here (or anywhere), but could we have a voice without being hi-jacked?

Take care, Margaret
     
CreepingDeth
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Dec 11, 2004, 03:09 PM
 
Originally posted by macintologist:
That was some pretty sick stuff aberdeenwriter. Constitutionalist conservative bigots like those of the Paul Reverse society do not have a monopoly on patriotism. It was funny how they talked about liberty and then traditional marriage in the same sentence.
If patriotism is blaming America first, then you are 100% correct.
     
aberdeenwriter
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Dec 11, 2004, 03:26 PM
 
Originally posted by macintologist:
That was some pretty sick stuff aberdeenwriter. Constitutionalist conservative bigots like those of the Paul Reverse society do not have a monopoly on patriotism. It was funny how they talked about liberty and then traditional marriage in the same sentence.
Sick? Hmm...I don't know that I agree with it's being 'sick'. But, as for the issue of traditional marriage, I haven't yet gotten enough info re: how it might or might not harm our society. But Please, let's not derail the thread with a discussion of same sex marriage! LOL (Anyone who falls into that trap may as well bring up abortion, too. They both are SURE derailleurs!)

As I said in the previous post, I don't agree with every part of their agenda. However, as I knew they (PRS) made Border-Language-Culture part of their platform, and some of their points do make sense, so I thought I'd throw it in the mix of ideas here.
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aberdeenwriter
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Dec 11, 2004, 03:37 PM
 
Originally posted by macintologist:
That was some pretty sick stuff aberdeenwriter. Constitutionalist conservative bigots like those of the Paul Reverse society do not have a monopoly on patriotism. It was funny how they talked about liberty and then traditional marriage in the same sentence.
Umm, your reaction to the PRS (calling it & them "sick stuff, bigots" etc.) in a discussion about immigrants with different languages and cultures just strikes me as ironic.
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aberdeenwriter
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Dec 11, 2004, 03:47 PM
 
Originally posted by winwintoo:
Have we all lost sight of the fact that this thread was originally about Asian immigrants and their driving abilities in Vancouver, British Columbia, CANADA.

Canada being a sovereign country separate and apart from the United States of America, having it's own government duly elected by the people of Canada.

It amuses me that any attempt to discuss a uniquely Canadian problem gets sidetracked into a discussion of problems south of the border.

I know there aren't as many of us here (or anywhere), but could we have a voice without being hi-jacked?

Take care, Margaret

Originally posted by Athens:
Any one notice how many immigrants come here and never learn the ways of the land. Im sure this also applies to Americans in the south too. Im not so much worried about older generations that come here and never learn English, it’s the ones that come here, have kids here and there kids never learn a word of English. I also don’t mind signs in Chinese as long as there is English with it, but I do draw the line when entire neighborhoods get transformed into Chinese or Korean and you feel like a outsider in the city you grew up in. Another thing that really pisses me off is how drivers licenses are issued. The tests are in most languages, and a translator is there to help them through it. On its own that’s not so bad I guess but time after time the translator is actually helping them pass there test and people that have no right being on the road end up on the road. Case in point, most people speed up in a merge lane when entering a freeway, but I have on more then one occasion come across a idiot that stops and puts there turn signals on to turn into the freeway instead of matching speed and merging. Im all for immigration but I think its time to force English (French for Quebec) as a mandatory requirement before citizenship. And Immigrants that reply to this all upset and saying this is unfair or racist, at least you can read this and understand and reply there fore I am not talking about you.
Margaret, I understand your frustration about wanting to talk about a certain topic only to have the rest of the thread and the posts veer off in a different direction.

Athens threw in a number of issues in his original post and you chose one of them to talk about. The other posters chose his other issues (including a discussion of US immigration).

I don't think anyone below the border minds discussing (or bashing?? lol) Canada.

Come on back and play.
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Sherwin
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Dec 11, 2004, 03:54 PM
 
Originally posted by winwintoo:
Have we all lost sight of the fact that this thread was originally about Asian immigrants and their driving abilities in Vancouver, British Columbia, CANADA.

It amuses me that any attempt to discuss a uniquely Canadian problem...
Nothing uniquely Canadian about that problem. Ballot papers are in eight languages (English, Urdu, Arabic, etc.) some places here in England - because the immigrants can't be bothered to learn the language. So the same observations about driving are probable concerns here too.
     
Cody Dawg
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Dec 11, 2004, 07:09 PM
 
macintologist said
I am also of Hispanic heritage (Mexican), and I say poo on any immigrant who doesn't try to assimilate into their host nation. I'm really sick and tired of this PC ********. If companies want to put Spanish on the phone cards because it will be a better sell to the non-assimilated (poo on them) then that's fine, but the line is crossed when the government tries to accommodate these people. What sickens me more is how Bush is practically encouraging illegal immigration. While I oppose sending back hard-working illegal immigrants who are actually the backbone of the border-state economies, we should at least be working to secure our border and prevent further illegal immigration.

And for Gods sake, why isn't knowing English a requirement for citizenship?

And one more thing, with regards to a point you made previous. Poo on any American or English-speaker who moves to another country and doesn't learn the native language.
GREAT post!



Secondly, why are we discussing the U.S. and not Canada? Uh, because most of us posting here are in the U.S.?



By the way, I grew up with a Mexican American family. Family was from Mexico City and the children were born here in the U.S. I spent the first 6 years of my life between their home and my own. You couldn't find more loving people, GOOD people, people who cared about their family, values, and raising their children correctly. I loved being at their home.

However, this is a thread (I think) about immigrants, legal or illegal, who refuse to assimilate into our culture and society. That means in ALL ways. It is in their best interest to assimilate because it means that they will:

- Get a job that pays more
- Their children will have better opportunities
- They will be safer from a legal standpoint
- They will be able to understand and take advantage of opportunities that arise (because they will understand an opportunity when it arises - something as simple as reading an advertisement or offer for example)
- They will understand their rights as human beings in this country (notice I did not say "citizens")

Anyway, that's all I have to say right now!
     
chris v
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Dec 11, 2004, 07:37 PM
 
Originally posted by winwintoo:
Have we all lost sight of the fact that this thread was originally about Asian immigrants and their driving abilities in Vancouver, British Columbia, CANADA.

Canada being a sovereign country separate and apart from the United States of America, having it's own government duly elected by the people of Canada.

It amuses me that any attempt to discuss a uniquely Canadian problem gets sidetracked into a discussion of problems south of the border.

I know there aren't as many of us here (or anywhere), but could we have a voice without being hi-jacked?

Take care, Margaret
I am an accuturated descendant of the Blood/Blackfeet tribe, from western Canada, whose native territory stretched northwards from the Missouri river in Montana. As far as I'm concerned, you can vacate Alberta any old time.

When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
     
aberdeenwriter
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Dec 11, 2004, 09:39 PM
 
Originally posted by chris v:
I am an accuturated descendant of the Blood/Blackfeet tribe, from western Canada, whose native territory stretched northwards from the Missouri river in Montana. As far as I'm concerned, you can vacate Alberta any old time.

Consider these posts as my way of introducing you to yourself.

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villalobos
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Dec 11, 2004, 09:50 PM
 
Originally posted by Athens:
...I agree about the government services too. Taxes are what pay for the services and illegals dont pay income tax to pay for the services. We shouldnt have to pay for them when they didnt earn the right by doing things the legal way.
Well since many temporary workers in the US pay Social Security taxes and will never gets anything out of it, my guess is it evens outs eventually.
     
winwintoo
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Dec 11, 2004, 10:04 PM
 
Originally posted by chris v:
I am an accuturated descendant of the Blood/Blackfeet tribe, from western Canada, whose native territory stretched northwards from the Missouri river in Montana. As far as I'm concerned, you can vacate Alberta any old time.
Well, I don't know about Alberta, but as far as I'm concerned, you can come and get Saskatchewan whenever you want it

The last couple of days it was cold enough to freeze the nuts off a steel bridge, then this morning, there was water laying all over in the streets, by noon it was raining buckets, by suppertime it was a blizzard, now the wind is blowing like crazy - remind me why we wanted this place........

Take care, Margaret
     
Athens  (op)
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Dec 11, 2004, 10:41 PM
 
Originally posted by winwintoo:
Have we all lost sight of the fact that this thread was originally about Asian immigrants and their driving abilities in Vancouver, British Columbia, CANADA.

Canada being a sovereign country separate and apart from the United States of America, having it's own government duly elected by the people of Canada.

It amuses me that any attempt to discuss a uniquely Canadian problem gets sidetracked into a discussion of problems south of the border.

I know there aren't as many of us here (or anywhere), but could we have a voice without being hi-jacked?

Take care, Margaret
Same problem in the south, just a different group of ppl. Same problem in the Netherlands, just with Muslems.
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Athens  (op)
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Dec 11, 2004, 10:46 PM
 
Originally posted by chris v:
I am an accuturated descendant of the Blood/Blackfeet tribe, from western Canada, whose native territory stretched northwards from the Missouri river in Montana. As far as I'm concerned, you can vacate Alberta any old time.

Oh your native LOL I thought you where hispanic with the rich white man comment. My mistake.
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ambush
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Dec 11, 2004, 11:30 PM
 
Originally posted by Athens:
Any one notice how many immigrants come here and never learn the ways of the land. Im sure this also applies to Americans in the south too. Im not so much worried about older generations that come here and never learn English, it’s the ones that come here, have kids here and there kids never learn a word of English. I also don’t mind signs in Chinese as long as there is English with it, but I do draw the line when entire neighborhoods get transformed into Chinese or Korean and you feel like a outsider in the city you grew up in. Another thing that really pisses me off is how drivers licenses are issued. The tests are in most languages, and a translator is there to help them through it. On its own that’s not so bad I guess but time after time the translator is actually helping them pass there test and people that have no right being on the road end up on the road. Case in point, most people speed up in a merge lane when entering a freeway, but I have on more then one occasion come across a idiot that stops and puts there turn signals on to turn into the freeway instead of matching speed and merging. Im all for immigration but I think its time to force English (French for Quebec) as a mandatory requirement before citizenship. And Immigrants that reply to this all upset and saying this is unfair or racist, at least you can read this and understand and reply there fore I am not talking about you.

THen I hope you guys can understand our struggle to keep our culture and history alive here in Québec. Don't forget the government has tried many times to assimilate us. Now they do it in a more subtle way, e.g. they accept more English Speaking immigrants in Québec, cut a lot in french teaching for immigrants, etc.
     
ambush
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Dec 11, 2004, 11:44 PM
 
Originally posted by winwintoo:
The original post was so vague, and Mr. Athens ability to communicate so impaired, I still don't know if this thread is about ethnic groups who refuse to learn English or about ethnic groups who are bad drivers.

There is no excuse for someone raised and educated in Canada to continue to misuse "there," "they're," and "their" in their written communication and to run all their sentences into one long, unreadable paragraph.

Many immigrants who speak English with an accent communicate with more clarity than you ever will.

Shame on you Mr. Athens.

Margaret
I say yes to immigrations -- they can even speak their own language if they want to. It's 200% legitimate. They can have their own part of town (e.g. montréal's small chinatown).

As LONG as they respect us like we respect them. Hell, we give them a shelter, we help them build a new life (granted it's NOT easy for them to evolve in such a capitalist society). But heck, it has to be done with respect. What I mean by respect:

They learn OUR history in schools. They can learn theirs too, and we can learn their history too. History is interesting anyway.

They speak OUR language. Heck they can speak their language too and we can speak it too if we want (I speak English, French and soon Spanish) But the official language should be English (in Canada) and French (in Québec). They *have* to be able to communicate officially in our language. Otherwise it's a giant misunderstanding.

They respect our culture. I've met some immigrants (and I know a lot of them) who are interested in our culture, they want to learn BUT also they do that while preserving their very own culture. It's 110% possible. Look, If I were to migrate to China, I'd learn Madarin or whatever. Bloody hell is it that complicated?
     
Athens  (op)
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Dec 11, 2004, 11:59 PM
 
Originally posted by ambush:
I say yes to immigrations -- they can even speak their own language if they want to. It's 200% legitimate. They can have their own part of town (e.g. montréal's small chinatown).

As LONG as they respect us like we respect them. Hell, we give them a shelter, we help them build a new life (granted it's NOT easy for them to evolve in such a capitalist society). But heck, it has to be done with respect. What I mean by respect:

They learn OUR history in schools. They can learn theirs too, and we can learn their history too. History is interesting anyway.

They speak OUR language. Heck they can speak their language too and we can speak it too if we want (I speak English, French and soon Spanish) But the official language should be English (in Canada) and French (in Québec). They *have* to be able to communicate officially in our language. Otherwise it's a giant misunderstanding.

They respect our culture. I've met some immigrants (and I know a lot of them) who are interested in our culture, they want to learn BUT also they do that while preserving their very own culture. It's 110% possible. Look, If I were to migrate to China, I'd learn Madarin or whatever. Bloody hell is it that complicated?

well said and the other thing is the common ground is also english, East Indians, Chinese, Korens, Turkish all have there own languages but for the most part most of them also know english or learn english here allowing them all to communicate with each other. Could you imagine if Turks had to learn chinese, Korens had to learn Persian and we had to learn them all to communicate with all the different people here. Richmond city is about to inact a bylaw about english for that very reason.

http://vancouver.cbc.ca/regional/ser...-signs20041209
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chris v
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Dec 12, 2004, 01:15 AM
 
Originally posted by Athens:
Oh your native LOL I thought you where hispanic with the rich white man comment. My mistake.
For all intents any purposes, I'm a rich white man, too. Way too far removed from the reservation (3 generations). Just doing some good-natured leg-pulling, since this kind of thing can always be followed to an absurd logical conclusion.

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Randman
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Dec 12, 2004, 02:22 AM
 
What about "native" Americans who can't speak or write the language worth a damn? There are far more Americans who can't communicate properly than immigrants.
Oh, and thanks Cody. First time I've ever been called an immigrant. Especially funny since my family was likely in North America before yours.
I also like the post where you made the difference between "normal" people and immigrants of a dubious nature. Just how did your family escape Europe anyway?

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Athens  (op)
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Dec 12, 2004, 04:09 AM
 
Originally posted by chris v:
For all intents any purposes, I'm a rich white man, too. Way too far removed from the reservation (3 generations). Just doing some good-natured leg-pulling, since this kind of thing can always be followed to an absurd logical conclusion.
For the record I’m not a raciest and I could be part Metis, cant find out because my Grand Father was adopted and the Quebec Government is really hard to get records from.

--------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Randman:
What about "native" Americans who can't speak or write the language worth a damn? There are far more Americans who can't communicate properly than immigrants.
Oh, and thanks Cody. First time I've ever been called an immigrant. Especially funny since my family was likely in North America before yours.
I also like the post where you made the difference between "normal" people and immigrants of a dubious nature. Just how did your family escape Europe anyway?
LOL my family roots go back to the 1600's in Quebec. For the "Native" Americans who cant speak or write good English, this post doesn’t have much meaning for them. They are already born with citizenship, and its not likely they are trying to get all the stores to change all the English into symbols that only illiterate people could understand anyways


------------------------------------------------------

How immigration should be setup…

Requirement one, proper identification.
Requirement two, criminal background check.
Requirement three, financial ability to be fully self sufficient for 2 full years or have a sponsor that has accepted all finical burden for 2 years, such as family sponsors. Or a employer who commits to 2 years of responsibility if they are importing laborers who probably don’t have enough education to make it on there own.

For citizenship ability to demonstrate understanding of the culture, the way the law works, the way government works, how banking, insurance, liabilities, responsibilities and everything that goes with what we learn growing up here. Basic understanding of the official language, with out that the ability, to function well independently is severally hampered. If an immigrant can’t understand the words SLOW DOWN CONSTRUCTION they should not have a license to drive. A person shouldn’t be expected to speak, and write fluently, but have enough ability to function. And there is no excuse for children that are born here to not learn the official language.


You know I never thought about editing the posts when responding to a few others. I hate looking at 3 of my own posts in a row too.
( Last edited by Athens; Dec 12, 2004 at 04:39 AM. )
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Dec 12, 2004, 04:14 AM
 
...
( Last edited by Athens; Dec 12, 2004 at 04:37 AM. )
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Athens  (op)
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Dec 12, 2004, 04:34 AM
 
oh how i wish we could delete our own posts.
( Last edited by Athens; Dec 12, 2004 at 04:40 AM. )
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Randman
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Dec 12, 2004, 04:34 AM
 
Originally posted by Athens:
Case in point, most people speed up in a merge lane when entering a freeway, but I have on more then one occasion come across a idiot that stops and puts there turn signals on to turn into the freeway instead of matching speed and merging.
And you know for sure that it's only immigrants that do this?

Hmm, wonder what people would say if the post wasn't about immigrants and driving, but women and driving skills, or lack thereof?

BTW, Athens; Edit your posts rather than adding three and four comments in a row.

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Dec 12, 2004, 09:50 AM
 
Originally posted by Athens:
When did I say they hard to learn perfect english? Just enough to communicate, understand laws, signs, general information should be enough.

Comment bon vous parlez français?
Je parle assez bien merci, étant Québécois moi-meme.

That being said, I referred to the idea that the way you expressed it, because you were tired, puting an effort in making it a good/clearer post was not necessary. But at the same time, you expect something from immigrants who may not be able to achive what you expect at the time you expect it. Although personally, I would not expect perfection from anyone but appreciate the efforts.

People who try to speak French to me I have a lot of respect for, because it is a dificult language and I'll be happy to assist if desired.. People who don't try to speak my language but make an attempt to communicate will receive the equivalent effort from me.

What I don't like is the dissing because people don't speak such or such language. I understand your point, but in the end, I realy don't care; I try to make the efforts for myself and people who seem to welcome it. Otherwise, I do not bother, and I would not expect any immigrants to do more than this.

We need to understand, I believe, where these immigrants come from. Granted, they come by choice, often enough. On the other hand, they come in other countries with fantasies in mind, and get very disappointed of the way we greet them. I have welcomed people in Canada although they had been residents for 10 years; I am often in shock to see these people cry because of my greeting; they often feel they never were welcome! Others have this nice and forgiving laugh for my naiveté... which is fine by me!

The other element to remember is that immigrants of the first generation are very close to their own roots and for them, freedom means, more of what they have always known. Some Muslim will hope to be Muslim the way they want (which is not necessarily radical...) and it is only after a few generations that the assimilation occurs, while the majority gets also assimilated (yet to a far lower degree I admit).

Learning the language of the majority of the greeting country should be obvious but so does the emergence of pockets of a specific culture and there are good reasons for that; high expectations and false promises from people marketing the arrival to a new country plays a role, as well as a deep misundertanding of the culture. But the cost of living interferes greatly with the requirement of adaptation; survival means needing a job and that does not mean time enough for school sometimes. Other rules related to clothing are a good examples, or even, the position of women in a society can come as a big shock. Many immigrants have not planned enough or prepare their immersion in another culture (and how could they if they never lieved in it in the first place?). Why shoulkd it be anydifferent for language?

I think that as Canadians, it is our duty to help immigrants to adapt and that requires a motivation and an effort that goes far beyond than: "why do immigrant don't assimilate?" Afterall, we are all immigrants ourselves, and never really invited.
( Last edited by SimpleLife; Dec 12, 2004 at 09:58 AM. )
     
SimpleLife
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Dec 12, 2004, 10:08 AM
 
Originally posted by Athens:
That’s my view too, how can you confuse the issue to badly, I am not talking about making them dump there culture, just make English a requirement for citizenship and laws like Quebec’s French laws that state that all signs must include the language of the land along with what ever language they want on it. My 2 best friends are Turkish and Iranian, my other good friends are East Indian, Chinese, Pilipino, Cuban... they all agree with this as well, they all had to learn English to survive here and prosper, and none of them gave up there culture, Abi still speaks Iranian at home, still hangs out with Persians, eats Persian, my buddy Turkay speaks Turkish at home, still eats and watches Turkish movies, none of that was lost for them. Why the hell does a Richmond teen who was born here 15 years ago has to go to school in ESL (English Second Language) and not know a single word of English? Doesn’t that disturb you. And what about a East Indian store that only hires East Indians, if your anything else, white, black, Chinese they refuse to hire you, they just throw your resume away because your not east Indian, same for Chinese stores and Philippines stores.
Well, I am not sure that the Quebec Language Laws are so good. We all witnessed the feeling of resentment that followed. Although Quebec will never separate, the issue of separation is not limited to language, but also to Culture. Nevertheless, whether Quebec separates or not, National Identity is certainly the goal, and language an element of Culture that requires some protection. But a Culture requires challenges and renewal, which is how it is great to have immigranst to feed us with new stuff so we can get a different look at ourselves.

Regarding that teen you talk of, I don't care; if he is no good at speaking the language, so much then for his possibilities of employment; maybe he will get a great job, but others will learn the language if they want to eat at some point. No need to lay it heavier on them I think.


I personally don't care if French or English survives the way it is; but I expect it to change and grow and that will come just like Japanese evolved as a language by integrating words from the portuguese vocabulary, or from the impact of WWII, or from the economic requirements to come from the trades with China...

And I do not care for hring people from your own family in your store; it is your store after all, not mine. What I would not accept is my government to hire unequally and discriminating on a regular basis people unfit for the job. A small store owner should be able to hire from their own family. A Corporation should not though.
     
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Dec 12, 2004, 10:13 AM
 
It's ironic that there are so many misspelled words and poor grammar in a thread complaining about people lacking strong communication skills in English.

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SimpleLife
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Dec 12, 2004, 10:13 AM
 
Originally posted by Athens:
So your telling me I should move because to many of them came over and made my city into China East? Where would I go, South to United States of Mexico?
My apologies for not being clear. I don't think you should move; all I was trying to say is that it is normal to feel threathened when your sense of belonging to a majority is diminishing with the affluence of immigrants.

Im sorry but if I decide to move to France, I learn French and integrate into there society, to think I can change there cities into English is arrogant and rude of me. If I move to Japan I have a expectation that I will need to learn some Japanese to function, to force my gracious hosts that accepted me into there society to learn English and do things my way, sorry that’s just wrong. So why do we have to accept it from them. They move here, they should be under the same expectations that we would if we moved there.
You may feel you will integrate to their society; but will they feel you will have done enough to fill their expectations?

Maybe I just very open minded compared to others; please don't take it personal. I have travelled so much and lived as a member of a cultural minority often so I have developped my own impressions of what is acceptable and appropriate...

Salut bien!
     
Cody Dawg
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Dec 12, 2004, 10:44 AM
 
Hmm, I remember when Quebec no longer wanted to be part of Canada. Anyone else?

They said that they wanted to keep their French heritage pure and apart from everyone else.

     
SimpleLife
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Dec 12, 2004, 12:25 PM
 
Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Hmm, I remember when Quebec no longer wanted to be part of Canada. Anyone else?

They said that they wanted to keep their French heritage pure and apart from everyone else.

"They" is not the whole population. And find a quote that said "pure and apart from everyone else".

Your bigotry is yours. Your are entitled to it and are accountable for the results. You don't have to extend it to a whole other group of people unless they express your own specific little views.
     
Zimphire
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Dec 12, 2004, 12:29 PM
 
Originally posted by TETENAL:
Spanish will be the number 1 language in the USA in a few years. Maybe it's time for you English speakers to start learning the language of your country.
No.
     
Zimphire
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Dec 12, 2004, 12:31 PM
 
Originally posted by chris v:
I was in a restaurant in Mexico about six years ago when a twenty-something Entitlement Boy at the next table over loudly proclaimed "Why don't these people learn English? After all, we're in their country supporting them by spending money!"I had to restrain myself.

Here's a hint for ya'll: Let law-abiding citizens and residents live their life the way they want to.
Yes, he needed the taste slapped out of him mouth. He is lucky that they probably didn't understand what he said.

What a pompous ass.
     
Zimphire
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Dec 12, 2004, 12:32 PM
 
Originally posted by chris v:
What this boils down to is: You're a bigot.
Eh, that is going a bit too far don't ya think?

Maybe?
     
Cody Dawg
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Dec 12, 2004, 12:39 PM
 
I'm a bigot? How?

Because Quebec wanted to separate from the rest of Canada?

That's a fact. How does that make me a bigot?

I have a feeling that English is not your first language is it?

     
ambush
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Dec 12, 2004, 01:12 PM
 
It's interesting to see no reply about my "it's all about mutual respect" post. Anyway that's the way I see it.

About Québec: please don't say it'll never happen. You see, we lost by 0.3% last time and it was probably because of federal frauds. Please respect the numbers and don't say never.

À SimpleLife: je respecte entièrement tes positions mais pour toi tu n'es qu'un "québécois mou", sans fierté d'appartenance à la nation du Québec. La loi 101 n'a pas sa place? Ça paraît que tu ne vivais pas dans les années 30-40-50 où t'étais toujours servis en Anglais. Les employés étaient des pauvres C-F mais les gros boss anglo-saxons les obligeaient à s'adresser à leur compatriotes en Anglais pour plaire à l'occupant. Je ne parle même pas de l'affichage commercial, etc. Franchement, la loi 101 c'est juste logique. J'la trouve même trop molle sur certains points comme la langue de l'éducation. En tous cas.
     
Cody Dawg
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Dec 12, 2004, 01:23 PM
 
Yeah, Quebec should be free if they want to be.

My family has roots there also. In fact, our family nom is particular to Quebec. A geneology check shows many relatives there.
     
SimpleLife
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Dec 12, 2004, 01:25 PM
 
Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
I'm a bigot? How?

Because Quebec wanted to separate from the rest of Canada?

That's a fact. How does that make me a bigot?

I have a feeling that English is not your first language is it?

Here.

Lack of assimilation is the discussion?

Try living down here in Florida where we actually had to have a vote on whether or not the state's "official language" would be English!

And Miami? Forget English there. It's actually an extension of any Latin country - pick one - and you better not expect them to read or write English.

They're moving northward, also.

As they do, people who do speak English move northward and away or form pockets. Like Boca Raton. Palm Beach. Jupiter. Port St. Lucie. Wellington. Delray Beach. You get the point which is that there is NO "assimilation" because people tend to live in communities where they can communicate with each other.

Now, on the other hand, I have a hard time finding fault with certain ethnic communities. Like the Chinese. The Koreans. Any Asian race - pick one.

They work hard. They value education. They don't live on welfare. They tend to stay out of trouble. They are the same as the Jews many years ago. The Jews came here and worked hard and established themselves by virtue of hard work and values.

Why? Because Jews learned English and attempted to assimilate themselves. I suspect that the Asian minorities will one day be the same. We are at the beginning of a big assimilation process with the Asians.

Now, the Hispanics are another story. For some reason, some of them do not think they should have to assimilate into our society. Maybe that's because there are so many of them living in areas, taking over entire cities, like Miami and parts of Los Angeles.
Italics (mine) expose a position I qualify as questionable. I agree that "bigot" is inappropriate. Racism maybe closer to it. I am not calling racist though, but the position you express reminds me of it...

Racism:
Racism is prejudice or discrimination based on the belief that race is the primary factor determining human traits and abilities. Racism includes the belief that genetic or inherited differences produce the inherent superiority or inferiority of one race over another. In the name of protecting their race from "contamination," some racists justify the domination and destruction of races they consider to be either superior or inferior. Institutional racism is racial prejudice supported by institutional power and authority used to the advantage of one race over others.
And
Judging an individual solely on his or her racial affiliation.
When you say "They", you generalise, and even when you get specific, you still generalise. Your last paragraph sounds like paranoïa when you put it the way you put it.

Btw, there is a big difference between "They said that they wanted to keep their French heritage pure and apart from everyone else." and "Quebec wanted to separate from Canada".

The word "pure" comes from your own belief of what "independance" and "separation" refers to. It's all yours. It is called "projection".

But you knew that already.

I understand that immigrants coming in en masse can threathening, but the worse comes from us, the hosts: if we keep treating them as strangers/aliens, they will not integrate.
( Last edited by SimpleLife; Dec 12, 2004 at 01:35 PM. )
     
SimpleLife
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Dec 12, 2004, 01:33 PM
 
Originally posted by ambush:
It's interesting to see no reply about my "it's all about mutual respect" post. Anyway that's the way I see it.

About Québec: please don't say it'll never happen. You see, we lost by 0.3% last time and it was probably because of federal frauds. Please respect the numbers and don't say never.

À SimpleLife: je respecte entièrement tes positions mais pour toi tu n'es qu'un "québécois mou", sans fierté d'appartenance à la nation du Québec. La loi 101 n'a pas sa place? Ça paraît que tu ne vivais pas dans les années 30-40-50 où t'étais toujours servis en Anglais. Les employés étaient des pauvres C-F mais les gros boss anglo-saxons les obligeaient à s'adresser à leur compatriotes en Anglais pour plaire à l'occupant. Je ne parle même pas de l'affichage commercial, etc. Franchement, la loi 101 c'est juste logique. J'la trouve même trop molle sur certains points comme la langue de l'éducation. En tous cas.
Well, if you still live in the 30-40-50 I agree with you.

Bill 101 was a bit strong; but it was not enough and what was required then and still required today is our welcoming immigrants to show them how great it is to speak French, rather than shoving it in their mouths.

Concernant ma qualité de "Québécois mou" ma famille est ici depuis les début de la Nouvelle-France nous avons défriché le pays beaucoup plus que la plupart des gens qui ont passé leur vie dans les villes. Je suis beaucoup plus nationalisme que j'en ai l'air. De plus, tu ne me connais pas; me juger précocement est une grave erreur.

Un jour on ira prendre une bière à "l'amère à boire" et on se causera de nos nationalismes respectifs. En attendant, met-moi pas dans un sac sans penser que tu auras pas besoin de moi le jour du vote...
     
Cody Dawg
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Dec 12, 2004, 02:02 PM
 
Because I say "They" that makes me a bigot in your world?

Well, where I come from saying things like that makes you some kind of a content or word or grammar fascist.

Don't try to label me because I used the word "They" to differentiate myself from another group of people that share heritage or physical attributes by virtue of their nationality and culture.

You risk being labeled an idiot.

Go sell crazy somewhere else. We're all stocked up here.

     
ambush
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Dec 12, 2004, 02:08 PM
 
Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Because I say "They" that makes me a bigot in your world?

Well, where I come from saying things like that makes you some kind of a content or word or grammar fascist.

Don't try to label me because I used the word "They" to differentiate myself from another group of people that share heritage or physical attributes by virtue of their nationality and culture.

You risk being labeled an idiot.

Go sell crazy somewhere else. We're all stocked up here.

I suggest you go and create your own militia so THEY can't hurt you.
     
Cody Dawg
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Dec 12, 2004, 02:20 PM
 
OOoooh!

How droll!

Can't you be a little more witty than that?

     
Randman
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Dec 12, 2004, 02:29 PM
 
I'm loathe to ever agree with ambush on anything, but I have to side with the peeps who said this thread makes cody sound very racist and naive.

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Cody Dawg
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Dec 12, 2004, 02:44 PM
 
Okay, okay, you've busted me. I'm a racist. Yep, you got me!

I'm a Jewish American racist. My best friend is an attorney who is also African American/black (don't want to be PC-incorrect and offend someone here with a preference toward one or the other) and my son's best friend is a Muslim from the Middle East and we regularly dine over at his house with his parents. Yep, they were all over here two nights ago laughing and we were all having a great time together and talking about how we're all going to Las Vegas together in the spring -- either that or hitting Mardi Gras. Yes, I socialize with ALL people yet I must be a racist.

I think that people who label other people racists are more into proving racism than anyone else...the true definition of "racism" if you ask me.

This thread is now so stupid that I'll cash out now before I lose any more chips. It's pretty sad.

This reminds me of Bill Clinton saying, "Depends on what "is" is."

Have fun with your toys!

     
Randman
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Dec 12, 2004, 02:52 PM
 
If you're so enlightened, why make the ignorant comments in the first part of the thread?

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SimpleLife
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Dec 12, 2004, 02:55 PM
 
Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Because I say "They" that makes me a bigot in your world?

Well, where I come from saying things like that makes you some kind of a content or word or grammar fascist.

Don't try to label me because I used the word "They" to differentiate myself from another group of people that share heritage or physical attributes by virtue of their nationality and culture.

You risk being labeled an idiot.

Go sell crazy somewhere else. We're all stocked up here.

OK. I guess, I fail to make my point appropriately.

I did not say you are a racist. But the language you use segregates people in what you see as their assimilability according to their "race". "They" is the term you use for the assimilated, while the Hispanics (or a few of them) "they" don't conform. Yet, some Jews have not assimilated, and neither has some English, or others. They seem assimilated, but they are not. Hispanics are not exceptional in this: many have assimilated, others have not, and unfortunately, the reputation they have comes from generalisations that are true for a minority.

And especially in America, where difference is such an important factor, I personally wonder how can people assimilate there...

Anyway. Why am I involving myself in that crap again...
     
SimpleLife
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Dec 12, 2004, 03:03 PM
 
Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Okay, okay, you've busted me. I'm a racist. Yep, you got me!

I'm a Jewish American racist. My best friend is an attorney who is also African American/black (don't want to be PC-incorrect and offend someone here with a preference toward one or the other) and my son's best friend is a Muslim from the Middle East and we regularly dine over at his house with his parents. Yep, they were all over here two nights ago laughing and we were all having a great time together and talking about how we're all going to Las Vegas together in the spring -- either that or hitting Mardi Gras. Yes, I socialize with ALL people yet I must be a racist.

I think that people who label other people racists are more into proving racism than anyone else...the true definition of "racism" if you ask me.

This thread is now so stupid that I'll cash out now before I lose any more chips. It's pretty sad.

This reminds me of Bill Clinton saying, "Depends on what "is" is."

Have fun with your toys!

The examples you use are no proofs that you are or not a racist. The belief that people have about how the world is structured has to do with how things are classified.

I could say I lived in South Africa all my life and all my employees were blacks: see? I am not a racist!

That type of comment proves absolutly nothing, nor does it warrant any accusations of racism. But using the argument "race" automatically brings anyone closer to a discussion that will evolve towards racism, even if you don't segregate physically people around you.

It is true that there are lazy people, but they are everywhere and belong to any races (if you believe in races that is...). That they happen to be where you live depends on so many factors that you may not be aware of most of them Also, seeing people not working is not necessary symptomatic of lazyness.

People around you may say: "You are not a racist". They can also say: "I do not know you as a racist". They can say also: "It depends what you said that makes you ask me that question".

And there is the whole lot of prejudice as well...
     
Randman
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Dec 12, 2004, 03:03 PM
 
Cody, just wait until your kids start dating, you know, one of "them".

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Cody Dawg
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Dec 12, 2004, 03:24 PM
 
Randman:

Actually, that would be great. I wouldn't care in the least.

I honestly really enjoy other cultures and their foods, etc. I love Miami. I love the Latin culture down there -- LOVE it. I cannot wait to drive down to Key West and enjoy the aura of old Havana that is there (what little there is is nice.)

But, while I'm in Miami I would expect to be able to read English on the signage there. It is amazing to me that there is a movement to make that city over and have English be a second language there - not the first.

Think about that then get back to me: Think, "How would I feel if all of a sudden my native language -- the one that has been native to my city or geographical location my entire life -- was suddenly yanked and another language became the primary language?"

I doubt many people would like it. This is America. We mostly speak English here. Stop trying to change that fact.
     
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Dec 12, 2004, 03:42 PM
 
     
 
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