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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Rumsfield Arrested for WAR CRIMES in Germany

Rumsfield Arrested for WAR CRIMES in Germany
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tsuki
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Feb 4, 2005, 03:02 PM
 
     
mitchell_pgh
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Feb 4, 2005, 03:24 PM
 
Originally posted by tsuki:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4236489.stm

that would be sweet.
Yah, that would be great...
     
Randman
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Feb 4, 2005, 03:29 PM
 
Post should be Rummy COULD BE arrested ...

Guess they have to do something to take their minds off the unemployment problem.

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BoomStick
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Feb 4, 2005, 03:33 PM
 
What a fistfull of stupid.
     
Millennium
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Feb 4, 2005, 04:10 PM
 
Yes, because Germany so has jurisdiction over this.
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OldManMac
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Feb 4, 2005, 04:34 PM
 
Their laws cause them to believe that they have jurisdiction in this matter, so that's what counts for now, and that's why he's debating on whether he's going. If he goes, and gets arrested, it really doesn't matter whether anyone else thinks the arrest is improper because of jurisdiction; what matters is that Rummy would be in a German jail. The issue would then have to be addressed, as I'm sure it would be.
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SimeyTheLimey
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Feb 4, 2005, 04:41 PM
 
Originally posted by KarlG:
Their laws cause them to believe that they have jurisdiction in this matter, so that's what counts for now, and that's why he's debating on whether he's going. If he goes, and gets arrested, it really doesn't matter whether anyone else thinks the arrest is improper because of jurisdiction; what matters is that Rummy would be in a German jail. The issue would then have to be addressed, as I'm sure it would be.
Even if they think they have jurisdiction (and I have no idea of German law on this question), high government officials have diplomatic immunity. If Rummy decides not to go it will be for political reasons, primarily to avoid a diplomatic spat that would be embarrassing to all concerned, especially when we are talking ALLIES here.

Belgium had a similar issue a couple of years ago. They ended up changing their law to prevent this kind of thing from arising.

Edit: in any case, this is all speculative. All that has happened is that some lefty human rights groups have filed a complaint asking the prosecutors in Karlsruhe to open a prosecution. Link Nothing has actually happened at this time, and there is no reason to suppose that anything will. Lefty human rights groups file frivolous suits full of wild accusations all the time.
( Last edited by SimeyTheLimey; Feb 4, 2005 at 04:56 PM. )
     
Shaddim
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Feb 4, 2005, 04:56 PM
 
Hello??? Ayone ever heard of Diplomatic Immunity? Is the BBC actually trying to look stupid? They really can't be this uninformed, can they?


Edit: Oops, Simey's already picked up the ball on this one.
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Sherwin
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Feb 4, 2005, 07:59 PM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
Hello??? Ayone ever heard of Diplomatic Immunity? Is the BBC actually trying to look stupid?
Trust me, those lefty prats down in Broadcasting House don't have to try at looking stupid. It's a natural occurrence due to them actually being stupid.

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badidea
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Feb 4, 2005, 08:12 PM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
Hello??? Ayone ever heard of Diplomatic Immunity? Is the BBC actually trying to look stupid? They really can't be this uninformed, can they?
Why don't you ask the US lawyers if they know about Diplomatic Immunity?

US lawyers representing Iraqis who say they were abused in US custody have filed a complaint with a German court.
You guys should read the posted link!
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SimeyTheLimey
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Feb 4, 2005, 08:33 PM
 
Originally posted by badidea:
Why don't you ask the US lawyers if they know about Diplomatic Immunity?
Better yet, why didn't the BBC ask them?

It's not like this stuff is any mystery. Here is the text of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations. Germany is a party, so is the United States.

Article 29

The person of a diplomatic agent shall be inviolable. He shall not be liable to any form of arrest or detention. The receiving State shall treat him with due respect and shall take all appropriate steps to prevent any attack on his person, freedom or dignity.
_
Article 30

1.___ The private residence of a diplomatic agent shall enjoy the same inviolability and protection as the premises of the mission.

2.___ His papers, correspondence and, except as provided in paragraph 3 of Article 31, his property, shall likewise enjoy inviolability.
_
Article 31

1.___ A diplomatic agent shall enjoy immunity from the criminal jurisdiction of the receiving State. He shall also enjoy immunity from its civil and administrative jurisdiction, except in the case of:
(a)___ a real action relating to private immovable property situated in the territory of the receiving State, unless he holds it on behalf of the sending State for the purposes of the mission;

(b)___ an action relating to succession in which the diplomatic agent is involved as executor, administrator, heir or legatee as a private person and not on behalf of the sending State;

(c)___ an action relating to any professional or commercial activity exercised by the diplomatic agent in the receiving State outside his official functions.
2.___ A diplomatic agent is not obliged to give evidence as a witness.

3.___ No measures of execution may be taken in respect of a diplomatic agent except in the cases coming under sub-paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) of paragraph 1 of this Article, and provided that the measures concerned can be taken without infringing the inviolability of his person or of his residence.

4.___ The immunity of a diplomatic agent from the jurisdiction of the receiving State does not exempt him from the jurisdiction of the sending State.
You have to understand that publicity is currency to these legal activists. They know their case has no legal merit. They don't care because to them, merely making the accusation, however wild, is enough. All they want is it get it publicised in the gullible (or sympathetic) media. It makes them feel good about themselves, keeps the activists happy, and probably helps their fundraising.
     
Sherwin
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Feb 4, 2005, 08:35 PM
 
Originally posted by badidea:
You guys should read the posted link!
That logic doesn't follow. If someone paid me to file a complaint with the authorities on Pluto 'coz some people on Jupiter had annoyed them, I'd do it - regardless of the fact that I probably wouldn't even know if said offence was prosecutable under Plutonian law.

Anyways. Wasn't Helmut Kohl in the Hitler Youth or something? Part of the Nazi machine? And Germany voted for him? Doesn't that make everyone who voted him in as guilty of neglecting human rights as Rummy? Perhaps more guilty - Germany knew who Kohl was, whereas Rummy probably didn't know a thing about the frat parties in Abu Ghraib until the news broke it.
I'll have to make a note to myself to file proceedings against the entire population of Germany.
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Feb 4, 2005, 08:50 PM
 
Originally posted by Sherwin:
Anyways. Wasn't Helmut Kohl in the Hitler Youth or something? Part of the Nazi machine? And Germany voted for him? Doesn't that make everyone who voted him in as guilty of neglecting human rights as Rummy? Perhaps more guilty - Germany knew who Kohl was
Kohl part of the Nazi machine? What kind of nonsense is that supposed to be?

     
ThinkInsane
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Feb 4, 2005, 11:39 PM
 
Originally posted by TETENAL:
Kohl part of the Nazi machine? What kind of nonsense is that supposed to be?

I remember something that came up in the late 80's or early 90's about some nazi connection with Kohl, but I can't for the life of me remember what it was. I tried googling it up, but all I keep getting is stuff about prince what's-his-nuts wearing a hitler costume. But I do seem to remember the accusations being found baseless. I wish I could think of what it was all about, but it escapes me at the moment. Didn't he supposedly skipper hitler's yacht or something?
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Feb 5, 2005, 12:11 AM
 
Why does diplomatic immunity exist? Are there any situations in which diplomatic immunity doesn't exist?
     
ThinkInsane
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Feb 5, 2005, 04:27 AM
 
Originally posted by Spliff:
Why does diplomatic immunity exist? Are there any situations in which diplomatic immunity doesn't exist?

Why, I can't say, but Simey's post above shows the situations where diplomatic immunity doesn't exist.


Article 31

1.___ A diplomatic agent shall enjoy immunity from the criminal jurisdiction of the receiving State. He shall also enjoy immunity from its civil and administrative jurisdiction, except in the case of:
(a)___ a real action relating to private immovable property situated in the territory of the receiving State, unless he holds it on behalf of the sending State for the purposes of the mission;

(b)___ an action relating to succession in which the diplomatic agent is involved as executor, administrator, heir or legatee as a private person and not on behalf of the sending State;

(c)___ an action relating to any professional or commercial activity exercised by the diplomatic agent in the receiving State outside his official functions.
2.___ A diplomatic agent is not obliged to give evidence as a witness.

3.___ No measures of execution may be taken in respect of a diplomatic agent except in the cases coming under sub-paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) of paragraph 1 of this Article, and provided that the measures concerned can be taken without infringing the inviolability of his person or of his residence.

4.___ The immunity of a diplomatic agent from the jurisdiction of the receiving State does not exempt him from the jurisdiction of the sending State.
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Feb 5, 2005, 04:40 AM
 
Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
Why, I can't say, but Simey's post above shows the situations where diplomatic immunity doesn't exist.
Legalese kills me every time. So what if a diplomat rapes a woman in a different country? Or drives drunk and kills someone? Is he immune then?
     
badidea
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Feb 5, 2005, 06:45 AM
 
Originally posted by Sherwin:
That logic doesn't follow. If someone paid me to file a complaint with the authorities on Pluto 'coz some people on Jupiter had annoyed them, I'd do it - regardless of the fact that I probably wouldn't even know if said offence was prosecutable under Plutonian law.

Anyways. Wasn't Helmut Kohl in the Hitler Youth or something? Part of the Nazi machine? And Germany voted for him? Doesn't that make everyone who voted him in as guilty of neglecting human rights as Rummy? Perhaps more guilty - Germany knew who Kohl was, whereas Rummy probably didn't know a thing about the frat parties in Abu Ghraib until the news broke it.
I'll have to make a note to myself to file proceedings against the entire population of Germany.
Your logic is annoying! This has nothing to do with the German people! If you would finally care to read the link then you woud find out that some Iraqis have filed a complaint at a German court with the help of US lawyers!
The German court has to take every complaint and then they decide if it is justified....

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
All they want is it get it publicised in the gullible (or sympathetic) media
Do you prefer censorship??
If something like this happens, it should be reported - not more, not less!
If FOX does not want to tell their audience about such things then this is bad!
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Randman
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Feb 5, 2005, 07:35 AM
 
Originally posted by Spliff:
Legalese kills me every time. So what if a diplomat rapes a woman in a different country? Or drives drunk and kills someone? Is he immune then?
Yes. Good episode of CSI: Miami on this. Couple of South American punks who's dad was a diplomat and CIA stooge killed this chick. They had immunity and had to be let go. Luckily, one of the jerks raped and drowned a chick at a party at the Canadian consul and therefore didn't have immunity. Soon as he left US territory on a boat, Bahamian police (in their jurisdiction) arrested him.

OK, so it was a TV show but it did do a very good job of explaining how immunity works.

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Feb 5, 2005, 07:59 AM
 
Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
I remember something that came up in the late 80's or early 90's about some nazi connection with Kohl, but I can't for the life of me remember what it was. I tried googling it up, but all I keep getting is stuff about prince what's-his-nuts wearing a hitler costume. But I do seem to remember the accusations being found baseless.
Kohl is born in 1930. He was a child during the Third Empire. I don't know whether he was in the Hitler Youth, but it might well be. Every school boy was. He was maybe 6 or so then. Did you expect 6 year old school-boys in 1936 to comprehend who the Nazis were?
He was drafted in 1945 shortly before the end of the war, but I don't see how all of that makes him "part of the Nazi machine".
I wish I could think of what it was all about, but it escapes me at the moment. Didn't he supposedly skipper hitler's yacht or something?
Skipper Hitler's yacht? Hitler didn't have a yacht. And even if he did have, do you really think it was skippered by a teenager?
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Feb 5, 2005, 08:48 AM
 
Originally posted by Spliff:
Why does diplomatic immunity exist? Are there any situations in which diplomatic immunity doesn't exist?
Diplomatic immunity exists because you can't conduct diplomacy between countries if those countries start arresting one another's diplomats for political reasons. It is designed to prevent exactly the kind of tensions between nations that these lawyers would create if they got their way.

The rules of diplomiatic immunity are therefore rules of necessity if you want a world where diplomacy can function. A world where diplomacy can't function would be a world with a lot more wars.

The international convention I linked to codifies this understanding between sovereign nations, and creates some narrow exceptions. They are basically exceptions where a diplomat conducts private commercial transactions in his host country that aren't directly related to his diplomatic job. So for example, if you rent an apartment to a diplomat and he doesn't pay, you have the usual remedies under law against the diplomat for your rent.

Other than those very narrow exceptions, the diplomat is absolutely immune for the very good reason that there is no way to allow criminal or civil process that couldn't be misused in some situations by a state to harrass, intimidate, or coerce a diplomat.

The rule is that the host state has three remedies against a diplomat it thinks has broken its law:

1. It can request the sending state waive diplomatic immunity. This request is quite often granted if the diplomat broke a simple criminal law. For example, a few years ago in DC, a Georgian diplomat got stinking drunk and ran down a 16 year old girl. Georgia waived immunity, and the diplomat is now in a US jail.

2. It can declare the diplomat persona non grata and expel him. This is the host country's only forcible remedy.

3. It can request the sending government prosecute the diplomat under its laws. Diplomats are always under the jurisdiction of their own governments.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Feb 5, 2005, 08:53 AM
 
Originally posted by badidea:
Do you prefer censorship??
If something like this happens, it should be reported - not more, not less!
I don't prefer censorship, I prefer full and informative reporting which this was not. The BBC article was one sided and misleading because itreported only the activist lawyers position without mentioning a very key fact that undermines their postion and credibility.
     
Sherwin
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Feb 5, 2005, 10:24 AM
 
Originally posted by badidea:
Your logic is annoying! This has nothing to do with the German people! If you would finally care to read the link then you woud find out that some Iraqis have filed a complaint at a German court with the help of US lawyers!
The German court has to take every complaint and then they decide if it is justified....
So it's nothing to do with the German people that those who run the country have this law which allows anyone from anywhere to file any stupid charges against anyone they want to? Have you discarded democracy and become a dictatorship again?

The fact that this law exists is just Germany over-compensating for the past. I mean, really, what's Rummy and Iraq got to do with Germany? Perhaps it would be better for Germany to make laws which allow it to concentrate on its own problems rather than those which make it seem like it's lecturing the rest of the World on human rights (which, believe me, makes some of us laugh).
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badidea
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Feb 5, 2005, 11:41 AM
 
Originally posted by Sherwin:
So it's nothing to do with the German people that those who run the country have this law which allows anyone from anywhere to file any stupid charges against anyone they want to? Have you discarded democracy and become a dictatorship again?

The fact that this law exists is just Germany over-compensating for the past. I mean, really, what's Rummy and Iraq got to do with Germany? Perhaps it would be better for Germany to make laws which allow it to concentrate on its own problems rather than those which make it seem like it's lecturing the rest of the World on human rights (which, believe me, makes some of us laugh).

I hope you're not a US citizen!
If yes...
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ebuddy
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Feb 5, 2005, 11:41 AM
 
You might know Clinton, Albright, and Clark are all wanted for war crimes regarding their actions in Yugoslavia. I notice no one wants to remember this. Being wanted for war crimes Internationally...move along dreamers.
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badidea
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Feb 5, 2005, 11:47 AM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I don't prefer censorship, I prefer full and informative reporting which this was not. The BBC article was one sided and misleading because itreported only the activist lawyers position without mentioning a very key fact that undermines their postion and credibility.
What about this?
US investigations into the abuse scandal have concluded that he was not directly responsible.
The article was pure reporting - completely unbiased - just like journalism should be!
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Sherwin
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Feb 5, 2005, 12:00 PM
 
Originally posted by badidea:

I hope you're not a US citizen!
No, I'm not.
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ThinkInsane
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Feb 5, 2005, 01:11 PM
 
Originally posted by TETENAL:
Kohl is born in 1930. He was a child during the Third Empire. I don't know whether he was in the Hitler Youth, but it might well be. Every school boy was. He was maybe 6 or so then. Did you expect 6 year old school-boys in 1936 to comprehend who the Nazis were?
He was drafted in 1945 shortly before the end of the war, but I don't see how all of that makes him "part of the Nazi machine".Skipper Hitler's yacht? Hitler didn't have a yacht. And even if he did have, do you really think it was skippered by a teenager?
I wasn't accusing Kohl of doing anything inappropriate. I was just mentioning that I remember their being some kind of accusation being made against Kohl, although I can't recall what it was. As I said, I seem to remember the accusation being found baseless. I never said I thought Kohl was "part of the nazi machine", just that I remembered an accusation had been made.

As for the skipper of hitler's yacht, that was just a joke. It was a line from some movie to, "You remember so-and-so, he skippered Hitler's catamaran during the war". Maybe I should have used a line from another movie that involved someone being Hitler's pool boy. Would have been more age appropriate, I guess

But I digress.
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Feb 5, 2005, 01:23 PM
 
Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
I never said I thought Kohl was "part of the nazi machine", just that I remembered an accusation had been made.
All right. Sherwin said that Kohl was part of the Nazi machine, and I thought you wanted to support him. Accusations are easily made, but this seems pretty silly. I didn't like Kohl at all, but he was no Nazi.
     
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Feb 5, 2005, 03:08 PM
 
Originally posted by Spliff:
So what if a diplomat rapes a woman in a different country? Or drives drunk and kills someone?
They call the Kennedy lawyers?
     
Sherwin
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Feb 5, 2005, 05:03 PM
 
Originally posted by TETENAL:
All right. Sherwin said that Kohl was part of the Nazi machine
No. I asked if he was part of the Nazi machine. Big difference.

Rhetorical statement wondering how Germany has got the balls to tell anyone else about human rights. I mean, if Rummy is found guilty by your jobsworths in office, raise an extradition warrant and the US declines to give him up, what are you gonna do? Start another war to get him?

I think it's downright insulting that Germany thinks its laws should apply to everyone on the planet. You lost the wars, you don't run the World, your laws only apply to people within your borders, get over it.

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Feb 8, 2005, 07:23 PM
 
Originally posted by KarlG:
Their laws cause them to believe that they have jurisdiction in this matter, so that's what counts for now, and that's why he's debating on whether he's going. If he goes, and gets arrested...
...which, by the way, is an act of war, and JSOC would have a fun day planning a breakout. Same thing as when there was the fake article about Bush's arrest in Canada-it would last maybe 24 hours, and then Rummy would be headed home on a Seahawk.
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Feb 8, 2005, 08:53 PM
 
Originally posted by Millennium:
Yes, because Germany so has jurisdiction over this.
YEAH BECAUSE BUSH SO HAS JURISDICTION OVER IRAQ.

Bloody stupid merkin.

RUMSFELD IS liable for the torture cases and SO is Bush. Torture was authed while they were IN COMMAND. This is NOT acceptable. I hope they file this in every country on earth. ARREST WAR CRIMINALS NOW.

So guys, once I'm in politics I can auth. torture and enjoy diplomatic immunity?
     
Sherwin
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Feb 8, 2005, 08:57 PM
 
I'm still wondering at what point putting ladies' panties on people's heads became a war crime.
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Wiskedjak
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Feb 8, 2005, 08:58 PM
 
Originally posted by SlowHands:
So guys, once I'm in politics I can auth. torture and enjoy diplomatic immunity?
Don't be silly. You must be an American politician
     
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Feb 8, 2005, 09:40 PM
 
Originally posted by Sherwin:
I'm still wondering at what point putting ladies' panties on people's heads became a war crime.
x2
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SlowHands
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Feb 8, 2005, 10:58 PM
 
Originally posted by Sherwin:
I'm still wondering at what point putting ladies' panties on people's heads became a war crime.
Give the name calling a rest



thumbs up: another brilliant right wing post!
( Last edited by ThinkInsane; Feb 9, 2005 at 01:14 PM. )
     
Sherwin
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Feb 8, 2005, 11:12 PM
 
Originally posted by SlowHands:
oh yeah you right wing nazi bitch.
Funny that. I thought the Nazis were left wing.

If you think that they're right wing, then I'll have to take your word for it as you seem very intelligent and informed.
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SlowHands
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Feb 9, 2005, 04:56 PM
 
Originally posted by Sherwin:
Funny that. I thought the Nazis were left wing.

If you think that they're right wing, then I'll have to take your word for it as you seem very intelligent and informed.
Enough, you won't be told again.

Nazi leaders were opposed to the Marxist idea of class conflict and opposed the idea that capitalism should be abolished and that workers should control the means of production. For those who consider class conflict and the abolition of capitalism as essential components of socialist progress, these factors alone are sufficient to categorize "National Socialism" as non-socialist.
( Last edited by ThinkInsane; Feb 9, 2005 at 06:03 PM. )
     
Shaddim
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Feb 9, 2005, 05:32 PM
 
Originally posted by SlowHands:
Might want to review history, nazi joe?
Nice namecalling. Care to think of something more original? I will say it's rather typical, coming from your ilk.

More accurately, and to correct your misconception, Nazis would be more in line with Exteme Populist thinking, other than Left or right.
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Salah al-Din
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Feb 9, 2005, 06:01 PM
 
Doesn't Israel have some similar laws(regarding the Holocaust) that the whole world helps them enforce? I'm not sure but IIRC they do.

If so, what's the difference?
     
SlowHands
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Feb 9, 2005, 06:18 PM
 
dude, maybe I won't be told again but I'm just gonna register another address and come back.
     
placebo1969
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Feb 9, 2005, 06:23 PM
 
Originally posted by SlowHands:
dude, maybe I won't be told again but I'm just gonna register another address and come back.
How will that further your cause? My guess it won't. The topic has to do with Rumsfield, not immature name calling.
     
ThinkInsane
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Feb 9, 2005, 06:31 PM
 
Originally posted by SlowHands:
dude, maybe I won't be told again but I'm just gonna register another address and come back.
Yes ambush, we are all well aware of your mastery of the internet and your ability to register new accounts. It's all very impressive, I can assure you. Or, how about this; try having a civil debate without resorting to childish name-calling.. Just a thought.
Nemo me impune lacesset
     
Sherwin
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Feb 9, 2005, 07:39 PM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
More accurately, and to correct your misconception, Nazis would be more in line with Exteme Populist thinking, other than Left or right.
I've re-read Mein Kampf recently and it still looked leftie to me.

If we take the champagne comrade's quote...

For those who consider class conflict and the abolition of capitalism as essential components of socialist progress, these factors alone are sufficient to categorize "National Socialism" as non-socialist.
...we already have a problem in that class conflict isn't essential to all stages of the socialist struggle - essentially the socialist's main aim is to end class conflict by simply getting rid of everything bar the working class, thus eventually making the class conflict a non-essential to socialism (unless, of course, socialism can only be defined as the transition stage).

Conclusion: the above quote was written by a socialist trying to distance his beloved movement away from the Nazis in order for it not to appear as crap/evil as it is. It follows that, as a socialist, the author was somewhere near the back of the queue when they were giving out the IQ points and as a result wasn't really capable of thinking his argument through.
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badidea
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Feb 10, 2005, 04:52 AM
 
Sherwin, please tell your Nazi crap all those politic scientists around the world who call communists left and Nazis right since quite a while now!
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iDriveX
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Feb 10, 2005, 05:08 AM
 
Originally posted by badidea:
Sherwin, please tell your Nazi crap all those politic scientists around the world who call communists left and Nazis right since quite a while now!
I think John speaks for us all when he says....

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badidea
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Feb 10, 2005, 07:02 AM
 
Originally posted by iDriveX:
I think John speaks for us all when he says....WHA?!?!?!
What's your problem with my post?

- "politic scientist" was my poor try to translate the german word "Politikwissenschaftler"
- communists are left
- Nazis are right

Calling Nazis left is nothing else than Neo-Nazi propaganda...
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TETENAL
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Feb 10, 2005, 08:45 AM
 
Originally posted by badidea:
Sherwin, please tell your Nazi crap all those politic scientists around the world who call communists left and Nazis right since quite a while now!
I have seen other members here being deceived by the word "socialist" in the party's name "National socialist worker's party". I don't know why.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#..._and_socialism
     
TETENAL
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Feb 10, 2005, 08:57 AM
 
     
 
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