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Why are Christian nations blessed...?
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idjeff
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Feb 10, 2005, 05:08 AM
 
...and Muslim nations are not?

By that, I mean, why is it that traditionally Christian nations such as many of the countries in Europe and North America seem to have it so good, whereas nations which are more Muslim do not have it so good?

Discussion please...

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Salah al-Din
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Feb 10, 2005, 06:13 AM
 
Originally posted by idjeff:
...and Muslim nations are not?

By that, I mean, why is it that traditionally Christian nations such as many of the countries in Europe and North America seem to have it so good, whereas nations which are more Muslim do not have it so good?

Discussion please...
Define good.

Muslims don't view pornography, the pornographization(I have no idea if that is a real word) of the entertainment industry, the disrespect for women shown in the west, the unequality etc etc as good.

So again, define good.
     
Athens
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Feb 10, 2005, 06:25 AM
 
Originally posted by idjeff:
...and Muslim nations are not?

By that, I mean, why is it that traditionally Christian nations such as many of the countries in Europe and North America seem to have it so good, whereas nations which are more Muslim do not have it so good?

Discussion please...
Well lets see.....
A lot of Muslim Countries are in places that are already difficult to live, such as the Middle East. With the exception of Oil they don't have much else going for them

Countries in Africa where carved up badly by the British which resulted in tribes that don't like each other being forced together as countries.

The Asia Pacific countries also have little in resources and are over populated for the resources they do have.

Muslims don't believe in interest, something that has created a lot of artifical wealth in Western Countries.

In the last 50 years the US secret services and other orginizations such as the FBI have caused political instablility problems in many of the nations because they didn't like the leader.

Other countries have been blown to bits by not so nice nations, like Iraq.

I think the biggest diference between Christan Nations and Muslim nations is that generally Western Nations do a decent job keeping Religion and Politics seperate while many Muslim Nations it mixes.
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Taliesin
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Feb 10, 2005, 06:35 AM
 
Originally posted by idjeff:
...and Muslim nations are not?

By that, I mean, why is it that traditionally Christian nations such as many of the countries in Europe and North America seem to have it so good, whereas nations which are more Muslim do not have it so good?

Discussion please...
I think it's a typical cyclical fate. In the 8th-12th century it was the other way around, the islamic world was politically, economically, military, scientifically... superior. The islamic world had a school-system, universities, scientists, literacy was for example nearly 100% in Bagdad at those times.

They developed a new mechanism to print books on paper, yes, the whole paper-industry stems from that development, medical discoveries, chemical inventions, new mathematical theories... coupled with greek philosophies and basically knowledge from all over the world, from China and India and off course from Greece met with the arabic enthusiasm to learn everything and to experiment in nature in order to weed out the good ideas from the bad ones and espescially the drive to use every good idea to its fullest extent in the economy and elsewhere.

If those progressive centuries had continued it would have been the islamic world that would have invented modern industrialism, but instead the orthodoxs took over the power in the islamic world thanks to an orthodox calif and from then on development halted completely as progressive thinking people were oppressed, harrassed and even prosecuted. The progressive elites then fled the islamic world, most of them going to Toledo, a town in Northern Spain that was reconquered by christians (by the way that was the time of the crusades).

There they met with jews and christians and there they continued their work. The jews basically served as mediators and translators between the christians and muslims. Together they translated arabic books that dealt with science, mathematics and philosophies, they also continued to translate greek and other books, and from there the knowledge spread into the christian world and stimulated the development of the christian world into an industrial supermight.

The rationalism, a core islamic idea, was taken over by christian theologians as they felt the urge and challenge to disprove Islam intellectually. Later it departed from christianity and turned into the basis for secularism...

Taliesin
     
idjeff  (op)
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Feb 10, 2005, 06:55 PM
 
I think what everyone is failing to miss in my question, is that of the word "blessed". When someone is blessed, it refers to some type of relationship with "God" where he looks at you favorably, and with that "blessed" relationship, technically, "God" is on your side and good things happen to you.

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Salah al-Din
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Feb 10, 2005, 07:01 PM
 
Originally posted by idjeff:
I think what everyone is failing to miss in my question, is that of the word "blessed". When someone is blessed, it refers to some type of relationship with "God" where he looks at you favorably, and with that "blessed" relationship, technically, "God" is on your side and good things happen to you.
Was 9/11 a good thing? Was the Madrid bombings a good thing? Were the two World Wars a good thing? The list goes on but this is just silly. In what way do you feel the West is blessed?
     
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Feb 10, 2005, 07:07 PM
 
Originally posted by Taliesin:
I think it's a typical cyclical fate. In the 8th-12th century it was the other way around, the islamic world was politically, economically, military, scientifically... superior. The islamic world had a school-system, universities, scientists, literacy was for example nearly 100% in Bagdad at those times.

They developed a new mechanism to print books on paper, yes, the whole paper-industry stems from that development, medical discoveries, chemical inventions, new mathematical theories... coupled with greek philosophies and basically knowledge from all over the world, from China and India and off course from Greece met with the arabic enthusiasm to learn everything and to experiment in nature in order to weed out the good ideas from the bad ones and espescially the drive to use every good idea to its fullest extent in the economy and elsewhere.

If those progressive centuries had continued it would have been the islamic world that would have invented modern industrialism, but instead the orthodoxs took over the power in the islamic world thanks to an orthodox calif and from then on development halted completely as progressive thinking people were oppressed, harrassed and even prosecuted. The progressive elites then fled the islamic world, most of them going to Toledo, a town in Northern Spain that was reconquered by christians (by the way that was the time of the crusades).

There they met with jews and christians and there they continued their work. The jews basically served as mediators and translators between the christians and muslims. Together they translated arabic books that dealt with science, mathematics and philosophies, they also continued to translate greek and other books, and from there the knowledge spread into the christian world and stimulated the development of the christian world into an industrial supermight.

The rationalism, a core islamic idea, was taken over by christian theologians as they felt the urge and challenge to disprove Islam intellectually. Later it departed from christianity and turned into the basis for secularism...

Taliesin
Thanks for the best post I've read on this silly forum in a long time.

At the same time I apologize on behalf of readers that your lovely post will be largely ignored as this devolves into another pointless Bible-thumping (pro and con) embarassment.
"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die." -- Hunter S. Thompson
     
idjeff  (op)
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Feb 10, 2005, 08:36 PM
 
Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
Was 9/11 a good thing? Was the Madrid bombings a good thing? Were the two World Wars a good thing? The list goes on but this is just silly. In what way do you feel the West is blessed?
No, I don't believe that 9/11 was a good thing, nor the Madrid bombings. It all depends on your perspective.

Well, let's put it this way... Where would you rather live? In the developed west where you have freedoms to pursue what you want, or in the borderline 3rd world/3rd world where you live in fear from your local tyrannt or dictator?

You gotta tame the beast before you let it out of its cage.
     
thunderous_funker
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Feb 10, 2005, 08:39 PM
 
Originally posted by idjeff:
No, I don't believe that 9/11 was a good thing, nor the Madrid bombings. It all depends on your perspective.

Well, let's put it this way... Where would you rather live? In the developed west where you have freedoms to pursue what you want, or in the borderline 3rd world/3rd world where you live in fear from your local tyrannt or dictator?
Isn't there a 3rd options far away from both sets of religious bigots and buffoons?
"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die." -- Hunter S. Thompson
     
SimpleLife
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Feb 10, 2005, 08:58 PM
 
Originally posted by idjeff:
No, I don't believe that 9/11 was a good thing, nor the Madrid bombings. It all depends on your perspective.

Well, let's put it this way... Where would you rather live? In the developed west where you have freedoms to pursue what you want, or in the borderline 3rd world/3rd world where you live in fear from your local tyrannt or dictator?
This is getting comical, but I can't make myself laugh...
     
nredman
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Feb 10, 2005, 09:03 PM
 
i'm sure non christian nations would say they are more blessed then christian nations. depends on who you ask i guess

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idjeff  (op)
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Feb 11, 2005, 04:09 AM
 
Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
Isn't there a 3rd options far away from both sets of religious bigots and buffoons?
No, there's not...

If you don't believe in God, don't interest yourself in the thread...fair enough?

You gotta tame the beast before you let it out of its cage.
     
idjeff  (op)
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Feb 11, 2005, 04:15 AM
 
Originally posted by SimpleLife:
This is getting comical, but I can't make myself laugh...
Look, this was my response to Salah's sidetrack of my original question...if you don't want to discuss my post, simply ignore it.

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idjeff  (op)
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Feb 11, 2005, 04:18 AM
 
Originally posted by nredman:
i'm sure non christian nations would say they are more blessed then christian nations. depends on who you ask i guess
It may, but from a westerner's standpoint (being based on christian ethics), I would say that the west is more blessed in just about every way possible.

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roberto blanco
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Feb 11, 2005, 04:35 AM
 
Originally posted by idjeff:
Well, let's put it this way... Where would you rather live? In the developed west where you have freedoms to pursue what you want...
except marrying a person of the same sex etc. etc. etc.

...oh, and your "freedom" reaches as far as your buck stretches. that's about it.

me, - i'd rather live in a completely secular culture. thank you.

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Taliesin
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Feb 11, 2005, 04:49 AM
 
Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
Thanks for the best post I've read on this silly forum in a long time.

At the same time I apologize on behalf of readers that your lovely post will be largely ignored as this devolves into another pointless Bible-thumping (pro and con) embarassment.
Thank you very much for your nice words. There's actually more to that story and it's indeed a very interesting topic that deserves further studies:

The question arises, why were orthodox's able to take over power in the islamic world and why did it have such a profound consequence? As far as I see it, one part of the problem is that the progressives at that time haven't taken the opportunity to institutionalise the development but instead relied on progressive thinking califs, which went good for a few centuries...
But what has happened that drove progressive thinking califs out of power? Imho, it was the decadent life-style they followed with a harem full of women, with alcohol, with indescribable amounts of richdoms they enjoyed and consumed, so that they lost all respect among the general population.
Another development was the arrival of turk-people that came from east-asia, they became muslims and the general population was impressed by their discipline and how they followed the requirements of the religion... and also their military stregth...

Another part of the equation were off course the crusades, and the general population felt that the decadent califs were much too weak to develop a strategy against the crusades.

So multiple developments led to the success of orthodoxs and to the success of turk-people which should culminate in the establishment of the ottoman-empire.

Taliesin
     
idjeff  (op)
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Feb 11, 2005, 04:55 AM
 
Originally posted by roberto blanco:
except marrying a person of the same sex etc. etc. etc.

...oh, and your "freedom" reaches as far as your buck stretches. that's about it.

me, - i'd rather live in a completely secular culture. thank you.
You can spin the topic as far as you'd like to, however most intelligent people here know of what I speak of when I speak of freedoms...

As I said before, if you don't believe in being "blessed" by God, just don't post in this thread....thanks

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Salah al-Din
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Feb 11, 2005, 05:00 AM
 
Originally posted by idjeff:
No, I don't believe that 9/11 was a good thing, nor the Madrid bombings. It all depends on your perspective.

Well, let's put it this way... Where would you rather live? In the developed west where you have freedoms to pursue what you want, or in the borderline 3rd world/3rd world where you live in fear from your local tyrannt or dictator?


Again. In what way is the West blessed? Was the West blessed when Franco, Tito, Hitler(the list goes on) controlled things? Elaborate on why you believe the west is blessed.

And not every country outside of the "West" is a 3rd world country with a tyrant/dictator in charge.
     
idjeff  (op)
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Feb 11, 2005, 05:01 AM
 
Originally posted by Taliesin:
Thank you very much for your nice words. There's actually more to that story and it's indeed a very interesting topic that deserves further studies:

The question arises, why were orthodox's able to take over power in the islamic world and why did it have such a profound consequence? As far as I see it, one part of the problem is that the progressives at that time haven't taken the opportunity to institutionalise the development but instead relied on progressive thinking califs, which went good for a few centuries...
But what has happened that drove progressive thinking califs out of power? Imho, it was the decadent life-style they followed with a harem full of women, with alcohol, with indescribable amounts of richdoms they enjoyed and consumed, so that they lost all respect among the general population.
Another development was the arrival of turk-people that came from east-asia, they became muslims and the general population was impressed by their discipline and how they followed the requirements of the religion... and also their military stregth...

Another part of the equation were off course the crusades, and the general population felt that the decadent califs were much too weak to develop a strategy against the crusades.

So multiple developments led to the success of orthodoxs and to the success of turk-people which should culminate in the establishment of the ottoman-empire.

Taliesin
So as I see it, the Cradle of Civilization once had everything the West has now...power, wealth, knowledge...etc

Why was this power, wealth, and knowledge taken away and/or lost? This is what I'm getting at. Why were these virtues given to the Christian west while the Muslim areas fell apart...ie. not blessed by God?

You gotta tame the beast before you let it out of its cage.
     
roberto blanco
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Feb 11, 2005, 05:05 AM
 
Originally posted by idjeff:
...however most gullible and self diluted people here know of what I speak of when I speak of freedoms...
fixed™

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idjeff  (op)
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Feb 11, 2005, 05:10 AM
 
Originally posted by Salah al-Din:


Again. In what way is the West blessed? Was the West blessed when Franco, Tito, Hitler(the list goes on) controlled things? Elaborate on why you believe the west is blessed.

And not every country outside of the "West" is a 3rd world country with a tyrant/dictator in charge.
Laugh all you want...I'm not really debating here...just a discussion...and I never said that every 3rd world country is controlled by a tyrant/dictator, ok?...those are your words.

You cannot argue that the west has a MUCH higher standard of living and freedoms than the areas that I speak of, because it does...period. So on top of the higher standard of living and the amount of freedoms (religious being a key freedom here) that the west has, it is quite significant when speaking of the west being blessed.

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idjeff  (op)
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Feb 11, 2005, 05:14 AM
 
Originally posted by roberto blanco:
fixed™
Care to elaborate?....This is a discussion thread and not a thread to throw around sarcastic "faces" around. Changing my quote tells me nothing about what you're acutally trying to say...ok?

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Salah al-Din
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Feb 11, 2005, 05:14 AM
 
Originally posted by idjeff:
Laugh all you want...I'm not really debating here...just a discussion...and I never said that every 3rd world country is controlled by a tyrant/dictator, ok?...those are your words.

You cannot argue that the west has a MUCH higher standard of living and freedoms than the areas that I speak of, because it does...period. So on top of the higher standard of living and the amount of freedoms (religious being a key freedom here) that the west has, it is quite significant when speaking of the west being blessed.
Of course the West has a higher standard of living. First and foremost because you use your own set of standards to put yourself on the top of the ranks. And what freedoms? Freedom to degrade women by "allowing" them to take part in pornography, by allowing 11 year old girls to dress like hookers, by banning symbols of religion(France especially), etc etc.

Elaborate on what you are talking about or this just sounds like some racist xenophobic BS. Which it probably just is.
     
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Feb 11, 2005, 06:39 AM
 
Originally posted by idjeff:
Why was this power, wealth, and knowledge taken away and/or lost? This is what I'm getting at. Why were these virtues given to the Christian west while the Muslim areas fell apart...ie. not blessed by God?
Because the Baby Jesus hates Muslims of course!
     
SimpleLife
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Feb 11, 2005, 07:59 AM
 
Originally posted by idjeff:
No, I don't believe that 9/11 was a good thing, nor the Madrid bombings. It all depends on your perspective.

Well, let's put it this way... Where would you rather live? In the developed west where you have freedoms to pursue what you want, or in the borderline 3rd world/3rd world where you live in fear from your local tyrannt or dictator?
This is comical because it is so stereotyped.

You want me to discuss your post?

Look:

West= Freedom
Non-West= borderline 3rd world/3rd world where you live in fear from your local tyrannt or dictator

The day you will see some gray between your extreme position we may have something to discuss. Being Christian has nothing to do with being blessed by some God or Endowed with Wisdom. The Dark Ages were very Christian indeed. The Missionary work to convert the "Savages" made more deads than the natural diseases and sometimes, the local tribal wars.

As for the present time, you may want to reflect on the level of criminality in our Beautiful West, as well as all the other niceties that come with it: drug addictions, poverty and suicide rates. And the let's not forget that Democracy that looks so elusive at times when real decisions are made; why is it we have so many political scandals?

"Yah?! But we're Free!?"

Yeah right.
     
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Feb 11, 2005, 11:33 AM
 
Salah al-Din; Muslims don't view pornography, the pornographization(I have no idea if that is a real word) of the entertainment industry, the disrespect for women shown in the west, the unequality etc etc as good.
You have this incredible knack for providing a post that is brilliant, then destroying the point in your conclusion. Women are treated with less respect in the West??? Uh, I disagree. Now, your points regarding the degradation of mankind via pornography, etc...are very good ones. In this, I see your point 100%.

I do not want to ascribe any thoughts for IDJeff, but I think he's saying that Christian nations appear to be more blessed in that they are generally more peaceful and produce more prosperity and freedom. Whether or not this is attributable to the Christian God alone, over a representative democracy is debateable. Muslim nations appear more theocratic and as such may lean toward fascism and religious intolerance and/or persecution. This is not a product of the people as a whole, just as the injustices committed by the US are not the product of the people as a whole, rather it's leaders.
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Feb 11, 2005, 11:41 AM
 
"Yah?! But we're Free!?"
Sounds like you may be taking a few things for granted my friend. You might know a great many of those living in nations not governed by representative democracy, appreciate the concept of popular vote. They'll risk they're lives for it. They'll produce turnouts the US could only dream of. Why? Because they have not been capable of reaching the level of ingratitude you so eloquently displayed above.
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Feb 11, 2005, 12:15 PM
 
It's all a cycle. Christianity had its Dark Age, and during that time the Islamic nations were very much at the forefront of human achievment and invention. Now Islam is having its own Dark Age, and the situations are reversed.

Christianity recovered from its Dark Age. So will Islam. I rather hope it won't take as long as Christianity did, though.
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Feb 11, 2005, 12:40 PM
 
Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
Define good.

Muslims don't view pornography, the pornographization(I have no idea if that is a real word) of the entertainment industry, the disrespect for women shown in the west, the unequality etc etc as good.

So again, define good.
ha ha... Salah al-Din talking about disrespect for women...

I would rather trade a little "pornographic disrespect for women" for having the same rights and privileges as men.

P.S. What about he pornographic disrespect for men... they aren't hard to find [not that i'm looking]
     
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Feb 11, 2005, 12:49 PM
 
Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
[B]Of course the West has a higher standard of living. First and foremost because you use your own set of standards to put yourself on the top of the ranks.
First of all, we aren't always on top, but we do have a high standard of living. Cleaner water, live longer lives, good medical attention, generally more educated (on average). Sure you could bash the United States from a Canada vs. England vs. Germany etc. etc. but comparing the west to the middle east...

If you were arguing quality of life, I you might have a point, but standard of living is high in the west.

Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
[B]And what freedoms? Freedom to degrade women by "allowing" them to take part in pornography, by allowing 11 year old girls to dress like hookers, by banning symbols of religion(France especially), etc etc.
Freedom of speech for starters. You focus only on the worst of what the USA has to offer, but disregard the educational system granted to EVERYONE (females and males)... but we are free to believe what we want here. To assemble peacefully no matter what God you believe in or even if you don't believe in God.
     
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Feb 11, 2005, 01:32 PM
 
Originally posted by idjeff:
Laugh all you want...I'm not really debating here...just a discussion...and I never said that every 3rd world country is controlled by a tyrant/dictator, ok?...those are your words.

You cannot argue that the west has a MUCH higher standard of living and freedoms than the areas that I speak of, because it does...period. So on top of the higher standard of living and the amount of freedoms (religious being a key freedom here) that the west has, it is quite significant when speaking of the west being blessed.
You seem to imply a causality here which I think doesn't really exists. Simply because the Western world has higher standards of living and (arguably) a better quality of life doesn't mean it is due to these countries being Christian. There is certainly some correlation, but as to a strict causality, no.

Let me ask you this question, very simply put:
Do you believe the Western world's higher standard of living is directly related to these nations being pre-dominantly Christian?

If you do believe the above to be true, then the reverse of that statement must also be true. Namely, that if these nations were not Christian they would not be as well off. So, that would imply that if a Western nation becomes less heavily Christian then its standards of living must decline.
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Feb 11, 2005, 01:50 PM
 
I think the basic question is way too simplistic.

As has been pointed out, the exact reversal of Christian/Muslim progress has in fact, been the case in the past. Therefore, unless you believe in a very fickle God who doles out his blessings willy-nilly, the concept of nation’s progress being based on being ‘blessed’ is overly simplistic.

The Christian world has in the past been very much tyrannical in every sense that one thinks of the worst of the Islamic world being today. When talking of people coming to the new world to escape the religious persecution of the old, we’re generally talking about people fleeing Christian tyrannies. To admit this, isn’t a slam against Christians or Christianity, it’s merely acknowledging the truth.

For all sorts of reasons beyond something quite as simplistic as being ‘blessed’, the so-called ‘Christian west’ has done a far better job of embracing ideas such as social democracy, religious tolerance (an idea by itself that flies in the face of any specific Christian blessing) the Enlightenment, and reforms brought about by European and American revolutions and the move to self-governance. It is to their credit that Christians were on the whole open to these ideas more than can be said for other religions.

If someone wants to label all the various factors as being either blessed or not blessed by God, go right ahead, but it still is very simplistic thinking.
     
dcmacdaddy
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Feb 11, 2005, 01:56 PM
 
Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
I think the basic question is way too simplistic.

As has been pointed out, the exact reversal of Christian/Muslim progress has in fact, been the case in the past. Therefore, unless you believe in a very fickle God who doles out his blessings willy-nilly, the concept of nation�s progress being based on being �blessed� is overly simplistic.

The Christian world has in the past been very much tyrannical in every sense that one thinks of the worst of the Islamic world being today. When talking of people coming to the new world to escape the religious persecution of the old, we�re generally talking about people fleeing Christian tyrannies. To admit this, isn�t a slam against Christians or Christianity, it�s merely acknowledging the truth.

For all sorts of reasons beyond something quite as simplistic as being �blessed�, the so-called �Christian west� has done a far better job of embracing ideas such as social democracy, religious tolerance (an idea by itself that flies in the face of any specific Christian blessing) the Enlightenment, and reforms brought about by European and American revolutions and the move to self-governance. It is to their credit that Christians were on the whole open to these ideas more than can be said for other religions.

If someone wants to label all the various factors as being either blessed or not blessed by God, go right ahead, but it still is very simplistic thinking.
Excellent post.
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
I would prefer my humanity sullied with the tarnish of science rather than the gloss of religion.
     
BRussell
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Feb 11, 2005, 02:03 PM
 
Originally posted by idjeff:
...and Muslim nations are not?

By that, I mean, why is it that traditionally Christian nations such as many of the countries in Europe and North America seem to have it so good, whereas nations which are more Muslim do not have it so good?

Discussion please...
The Guns Germs and Steel type of approach is that Europe has done well, better than other cultures, because of things like good soil and useful animals that could be easily domesticated. They just happened to be in a good spot on the globe. I'm sure that's important, but I don't think you can underestimate the importance of the political and economic systems in use, and much of that comes from the religious/cultural traditions.

On the other hand, I'm not sure, with our limited vantage point, that we can claim that Europe/Europeans have been so obviously blessed. Europe didn't have all that great of a 20th century, in case you forget.
     
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Feb 11, 2005, 02:32 PM
 
Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
I think the basic question is way too simplistic.

As has been pointed out, the exact reversal of Christian/Muslim progress has in fact, been the case in the past. Therefore, unless you believe in a very fickle God who doles out his blessings willy-nilly, the concept of nation’s progress being based on being ‘blessed’ is overly simplistic.

The Christian world has in the past been very much tyrannical in every sense that one thinks of the worst of the Islamic world being today. When talking of people coming to the new world to escape the religious persecution of the old, we’re generally talking about people fleeing Christian tyrannies. To admit this, isn’t a slam against Christians or Christianity, it’s merely acknowledging the truth.

For all sorts of reasons beyond something quite as simplistic as being ‘blessed’, the so-called ‘Christian west’ has done a far better job of embracing ideas such as social democracy, religious tolerance (an idea by itself that flies in the face of any specific Christian blessing) the Enlightenment, and reforms brought about by European and American revolutions and the move to self-governance. It is to their credit that Christians were on the whole open to these ideas more than can be said for other religions.

If someone wants to label all the various factors as being either blessed or not blessed by God, go right ahead, but it still is very simplistic thinking.
Yep.

By the way, how many people in the West enjoy the lifestyle of the House of Saud? Seems to me there are some very very seriously "blessed" tyrants in the world so again, the fundamental question of the thread is hopelessly oversimplified.
"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die." -- Hunter S. Thompson
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Feb 11, 2005, 02:49 PM
 
Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
When talking of people coming to the new world to escape the religious persecution of the old, we’re generally talking about people fleeing Christian tyrannies.
This may lead off-topic. If so, I apologize.

But

Is this quote really true? That's the high school myth about the Pilgrims, but I see a couple of problems with that. First, the Pilgrims weren't really interested in religious freedom. They were pretty capable of religious persecution themselves -- that's how Rhode Island ended up coming into being.

More importantly, for all the mythology that surrounds them, the Pilgrims are pretty much a footnote to the settlement of America. Their numbers were never very high, and within (from memory) about 50 years they had lost majority status in Massachusetts Bay.

Later settlers came for all kinds of reasons, mostly unconnected to religion. For example, Virginia was settled by former Cavaliers fleeing England after losing the English Civil War -- which was a political dispute more than it was a religious one. But even they were small in numbers. Most people came to the new world basically for economic reasons. Religious persecution had little to do with it.
     
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Feb 11, 2005, 02:53 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
This may lead off-topic. If so, I apologize.

But

Is this quote really true? That's the high school myth about the Pilgrims, but I see a couple of problems with that. First, the Pilgrims weren't really interested in religious freedom. They were pretty capable of religious persecution themselves -- that's how Rhode Island ended up coming into being.

More importantly, for all the mythology that surrounds them, the Pilgrims are pretty much a footnote to the settlement of America. Their numbers were never very high, and within (from memory) about 50 years they had lost majority status in Massachusetts Bay.

Later settlers came for all kinds of reasons, mostly unconnected to religion. For example, Virginia was settled by former Cavaliers fleeing England after losing the English Civil War -- which was a political dispute more than it was a religious one. But even they were small in numbers. Most people came to the new world basically for economic reasons. Religious persecution had little to do with it.
Now there's the Simey I remember. Great post.
"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die." -- Hunter S. Thompson
     
Saad
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Feb 11, 2005, 05:54 PM
 
Originally posted by Athens:
Well lets see.....
A lot of Muslim Countries are in places that are already difficult to live, such as the Middle East. With the exception of Oil they don't have much else going for them

Countries in Africa where carved up badly by the British which resulted in tribes that don't like each other being forced together as countries.

The Asia Pacific countries also have little in resources and are over populated for the resources they do have.

Muslims don't believe in interest, something that has created a lot of artifical wealth in Western Countries.

In the last 50 years the US secret services and other orginizations such as the FBI have caused political instablility problems in many of the nations because they didn't like the leader.

Other countries have been blown to bits by not so nice nations, like Iraq.

I think the biggest diference between Christan Nations and Muslim nations is that generally Western Nations do a decent job keeping Religion and Politics seperate while many Muslim Nations it mixes.
Lebanon and Syria are some of the prettiest places on earth.
     
SimpleLife
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Feb 11, 2005, 08:34 PM
 
Originally posted by ebuddy:
Sounds like you may be taking a few things for granted my friend. You might know a great many of those living in nations not governed by representative democracy, appreciate the concept of popular vote. They'll risk they're lives for it. They'll produce turnouts the US could only dream of. Why? Because they have not been capable of reaching the level of ingratitude you so eloquently displayed above.
Well, part of my ancestors were decimated because of Good Christians so paint me ingrate for having so many of them in Heavens before their time.

But this way of thinking that because you're Christian and happy means everybody else is is plainly narcissistic, egotistical and self-centered.

But heck, that is your psychosis. Not mine.
     
analogika
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Feb 11, 2005, 09:13 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Is this quote really true? That's the high school myth about the Pilgrims, but I see a couple of problems with that. First, the Pilgrims weren't really interested in religious freedom. They were pretty capable of religious persecution themselves -- that's how Rhode Island ended up coming into being.
Thank you.

People tend to forget that the initial settlers that landed in America were unwelcome here for good reasons - though it wasn't long before economic reasons took over.
     
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Feb 11, 2005, 09:23 PM
 
Originally posted by Athens:
such as the Middle East. With the exception of Oil they don't have much else going for them
That dosnt make sense... the only non "3rd world country" in the middle east has practically no oil reserves to speak of and had one of the harshest lands to develop...
What you don't see with your eyes, don't invent with your mouth. Yiddish proverb
     
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Feb 12, 2005, 03:51 AM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Is this quote really true? That's the high school myth about the Pilgrims, but I see a couple of problems with that. First, the Pilgrims weren't really interested in religious freedom. They were pretty capable of religious persecution themselves -- that's how Rhode Island ended up coming into being.
Well the ‘High School’ Pilgrim story (watered down to a fairy tale in recent ages) is an over-simplified example, but it’s not my example. It is in fact, unarguable that very real (and well-documented) religious persecution in Europe drove many to the American colonies. So actually yes, I believe the statement I made to be accurate.

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel01.html
The religious persecution that drove settlers from Europe to the British North American colonies sprang from the conviction, held by Protestants and Catholics alike, that uniformity of religion must exist in any given society. This conviction rested on the belief that there was one true religion and that it was the duty of the civil authorities to impose it, forcibly if necessary, in the interest of saving the souls of all citizens. Nonconformists could expect no mercy and might be executed as heretics. The dominance of the concept, denounced by Roger Williams as "inforced uniformity of religion," meant majority religious groups who controlled political power punished dissenters in their midst. In some areas Catholics persecuted Protestants, in others Protestants persecuted Catholics, and in still others Catholics and Protestants persecuted wayward coreligionists. Although England renounced religious persecution in 1689, it persisted on the European continent.
You’ve also mixed two separate issues. Yes, people fled from religious persecution in Europe- unarguable. Does that mean that they themselves practiced religious freedom toward others, and didn’t themselves often set up religious tyrannies once they got to the Americas? Absolutely not. This fact actually is more evidence of the over-simplicity of pronouncing nations ‘blessed’ based on religious belief.
     
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Feb 12, 2005, 05:19 AM
 
Originally posted by idjeff:
So as I see it, the Cradle of Civilization once had everything the West has now...power, wealth, knowledge...etc

Why was this power, wealth, and knowledge taken away and/or lost? This is what I'm getting at. Why were these virtues given to the Christian west while the Muslim areas fell apart...ie. not blessed by God?
If I would use christian theology I would say with Christ's words "The last ones in this life will be the first in the next.", which means basically that economical wellbeing in this life is no sign of God's blessing, actually it could be a sign of a test of faith by providing richdoms to some and taking it away from others.

There are numerous theological reasons and possibilities and it's never as clear-cut as you might think.

Besides there are some christian countries in Africa and Southamerica and they aren't doing well economically or otherwise, on the other hand Japan seems to be doing pretty well, eventhough they are very clearly not christian.

Secularly and histiorically seen, the west has used the opportunity of a jump in development, which was due to islamic inspiration in the past, in order to colonise and exploit those countries that are nowadays known as thirdworld-countries. So, richdoms from the nowadays called thirdworld-countries flowed into the west and built the foundation for the economic success of the west as well as for the economic failure of the thirdworld. And this situation hasn't changed much since then, the west still exploits and benifits from the thirdworld in many different ways.

But eventhough the west is enjoying a better standard of living and more freedoms and more democratic participation, etc... the quality of life is actually lower, because due to the modernization-trends in the west more and more family-bounds are broken up, and the people's morality is degenerating, which again leads to more and more crimes and more and more prisoners, and the freedom that the sexual revolution brought about also led to less marriages and more divorcings, and ultimately due also to anti-baby-pills to less and less children born.. which even could lead in the extreme to the dying out of the west in the long-term.

Taliesin
     
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Splinter
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Feb 12, 2005, 08:00 AM
 
I belive at one point the west was blessed because of its following... and now that is being taken away... look at all the horrible things they ahve pointed out... alot of people will tell you that they are in for punishment because of these things...

Originally posted by Taliesin:
But eventhough the west is enjoying a better standard of living and more freedoms and more democratic participation, etc... the quality of life is actually lower, because due to the modernization-trends in the west more and more family-bounds are broken up, and the people's morality is degenerating, which again leads to more and more crimes and more and more prisoners, and the freedom that the sexual revolution brought about also led to less marriages and more divorcings, and ultimately due also to anti-baby-pills to less and less children born.. which even could lead in the extreme to the dying out of the west in the long-term.

Taliesin
But I belive that all these things ARE punishment... I wouldnt even call the west Christian cause there is nowhere on the face of this earth that christians are more spiritually dead inside then in the west. its so disgusting its not even funny.

Yeah maybe someone will post about how your church is not like that well you are one of the few good for you... but look again... to whome are you comparing your spiritual lives to?

It seems like a vicious cycle. You have a great prosperous nation that is blessed then they get to comfortable and they become empty shells god punishes them takes it all away they cry out and turn back god blesses thema gain and they become prosperous... heh.
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SimeyTheLimey
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Feb 12, 2005, 09:45 AM
 
Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
Well the ‘High School’ Pilgrim story (watered down to a fairy tale in recent ages) is an over-simplified example, but it’s not my example. It is in fact, unarguable that very real (and well-documented) religious persecution in Europe drove many to the American colonies. So actually yes, I believe the statement I made to be accurate.

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel01.html


You’ve also mixed two separate issues. Yes, people fled from religious persecution in Europe- unarguable. Does that mean that they themselves practiced religious freedom toward others, and didn’t themselves often set up religious tyrannies once they got to the Americas? Absolutely not. This fact actually is more evidence of the over-simplicity of pronouncing nations ‘blessed’ based on religious belief.
With respect to the Library of Congress website, I don't think that is accurate. I think you certainly could make an argument with respect to Maryland as an explicitly Catholic state, and perhaps Quaker Pennsylvania. But both only very early on. Other colonies, of course, were chartered companies from the get-go. Other colonies like Virginia were as I pointed out not founded with any religious purpose either. It was a royal colony. Indeed, Virginia, and most (in fact I think all) of the south had established Anglican churches with a bishop in London.

All of this focus on what a few elites had in mnd when they founded a colony also misses the demographic point. The bulk of emigration took place a little later, even if you are only talking about the seventeenth century and early eighteenth. Colonies take a bit to get going, and it is misleading to only focus on the small elite in the first wave. Most people were lured to these colonies by promises of economic bounty -- which to a large but backbreaking extent was true. Others came to the new world as indentured servants or other colonists, and not an insignificant number came as convicts.

David Hackett Fischer has some interesting tables and other data in
Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America. It also has good background on the foundation of the various colonies, and the early migration waves. If you haven't read it, I'd highly recommend it as a more fullsome picture of early America.
( Last edited by SimeyTheLimey; Feb 12, 2005 at 09:55 AM. )
     
ebuddy
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Feb 12, 2005, 10:28 AM
 
Originally posted by SimpleLife:
Well, part of my ancestors were decimated because of Good Christians so paint me ingrate for having so many of them in Heavens before their time.
I'm sorry to hear this Simple Life. I can't be clear enough when I tell you I am Christian and am by no means a murderer. To clarify, in what manner did 'good Christians' decimate part of your ancestory? In other words, as difficult as it may be; could you elaborate?
But this way of thinking that because you're Christian and happy means everybody else is is plainly narcissistic, egotistical and self-centered.
I think the thread was posed as a question. While IDJEff may feel that our Christian heritage has brought about prosperity; I might say our Christian heritage has helped produce a system of governing that has led to prosperity.
But heck, that is your psychosis. Not mine.
I think if you read my post at all Simple Life you'd know that the psychosis is indeed yours exclusively. You have confused me with someone else.
ebuddy
     
ebuddy
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Feb 12, 2005, 10:52 AM
 
There were two, clear and unmistakeable reasons for the chartering of the 13 colonies;
Economic Interests and Religious freedom/autonomy. This was a major influence in how the colonies were split into three main regions; New England, Middle, and the Southern colonies. These differences in ideals would dictate which colonists settled where and what type of society each would set up. From reading the charters of each of the 13 colonies, it becomes clear that freedom of worship and acknowledgement of Christian principle was at play in large capacity, but these differences in ideals would make the drafting of an inclusive Constitution a challenge. Economic interests led to a split in the Union with, ironically, particular focus of concern regarding the ideal; "all men are created equal", yet not for any theological reason.
ebuddy
     
Wiskedjak
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Feb 12, 2005, 11:05 AM
 
Originally posted by idjeff:
I think what everyone is failing to miss in my question, is that of the word "blessed". When someone is blessed, it refers to some type of relationship with "God" where he looks at you favorably, and with that "blessed" relationship, technically, "God" is on your side and good things happen to you.
I think everyone is well aware of your point, but also aware that your hypothesis is a little biased. There are many elements the Western nations beyond Christianity have in common that may explain their economic success relative to other nations. One may also question how Christian your "Christian" nations are.

However, there is one flaw in your hypothesis. According to it, only "Christian" nations will be successful. Explain a nation like Singapore then.
     
Wiskedjak
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Feb 12, 2005, 11:11 AM
 
Originally posted by idjeff:
It may, but from a westerner's standpoint (being based on christian ethics), I would say that the west is more blessed in just about every way possible.
Of course you would. And from the standpoint of someone in one of your "non-Christian" nations they would likely consider themselves more blessed than you.
     
 
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