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Ahmadinejad at Columbia
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Big Mac
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Sep 24, 2007, 02:57 PM
 
Here's a thread for reactions to Ahmadinejad's speech at Columbia.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
Cold Warrior
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Sep 24, 2007, 03:03 PM
 
This guy is evil incarnate, and his speech was pure propaganda.
     
peeb
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Sep 24, 2007, 03:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cold Warrior View Post
This guy is evil incarnate, and his speech was pure propaganda.
No, no, tell us what you really think! Even better, back up your opinion with some rational argument!
     
Cold Warrior
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Sep 24, 2007, 03:20 PM
 
Holocaust denier; terrorist in his youth; oppressive dictator. 3 strikes, you're out!
     
peeb
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Sep 24, 2007, 03:25 PM
 
What has that got to do with his speech?
     
lpkmckenna
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Sep 24, 2007, 03:32 PM
 
I watched the speech. It was a long, rambling, pointless slumber-party about science purifying the soul. At the end he stuffed in a bit about being a university professor and "researching" the Holocaust.

I can't imagine regularly attending university lectures by this guy. Unless I was looking to catch up on my sleep.
     
lpkmckenna
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Sep 24, 2007, 03:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cold Warrior View Post
This guy is evil incarnate, and his speech was pure propaganda.
Did you even watch the speech? "Propaganda" implies at least some content. I've never heard a more pointless rambling.
     
wallinbl
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Sep 24, 2007, 03:36 PM
 
Two things:

The introduction from the Columbia President was rude. You invited the guy to come over and speak and acted like it was important to hear his views even if they differed from yours, but then you slam him before he gets to talk. Sorry, but that's just wrong. Did you invite him over in the interest of free speech and openness or was it a trap, hoping that he'd run at the mouth and look like a fool?

"We don't have homosexuals. I don't know who told you that." That's hilarious. Is that because you killed them all?
     
subego
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Sep 24, 2007, 03:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cold Warrior View Post
oppressive dictator

I get the impression he could lose the next election. Very bad form for an oppressive dictator.
     
PaperNotes
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Sep 24, 2007, 04:01 PM
 
Ahmadinejad is not an oppressive dictator because he was elected and many Iranians openly have voiced their opinions about him. Neither is he evil. More like a silly little backwards thinking person who likes to play the media.

Iranians are allowed to protest and speak out against politicians. Many have openly said Ahmadinejad is a crap leader. Support for him has fallen a lot. It is the elite conservative clerics who are the problem in Iran. Once their generation with their backwards thinking dies out then Iran will progress forward like Turkey has been slowly doing. If we have war with Iran that conservative class will not go away so easily because a new generation will choose to replace them out of anger for the West. We need to keep getting support inside Iran and that requires a clever balance of patience, propaganda, economics and rationalism.
     
stevesnj
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Sep 24, 2007, 04:01 PM
 
I think having him talk anywhere is brilliant, he is self destructing himself in front of the world and he gives the Muslim religion a bad name everyone knows it isn't. Why Muslim leaders don't condemn him is beyond me.
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peeb
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Sep 24, 2007, 04:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by PaperNotes View Post
Ahmadinejad is not an oppressive dictator because he was elected and many Iranians openly have voiced their opinions about him. Neither is he evil. More like a silly little backwards thinking person who likes to play the media.
Sounds like Bush.
     
Ado
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Sep 24, 2007, 04:32 PM
 
You can read the transcript:

Transcript: Ahmadinejad Interview, Part 1, Read Part One Of Scott Pelley's Interview With Iran's Leader - CBS News
Transcript: Ahmadinejad Interview, Part 2, Read Part Two Of Scott Pelley's Interview With Iran's Leader - CBS News

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PELLEY: Mr. President, do you intend to press your request to visit the World Trade Center site in New York?

AHMADINEJAD: Well, it was included in my program, if we have the time and the conditions are conducive, I will try to do that.

PELLEY: But the New York Police Department and others do not appear to want you there. Do you intend to go there anyway?

AHMADINEJAD: Well, over there, local officials need to make the necessary coordinations. If they can't do that, I won't insist.

PELLEY: Sir, what were you thinking? The World Trade Center site is the most sensitive place in the American heart, and you must have known that visiting there would be insulting to many, many Americans.

AHMADINEJAD: Why should it be insulting?

PELLEY: Well, sir, you're the head of government of an Islamist state that the United States government says is a major exporter of terrorism around the world.

AHMADINEJAD: Well, I wouldn't say that what the American government says is the prerequisite here. Something happened there which led to other events. Many innocent people were killed there. Some of those people were American citizens obviously. We obviously are very much against any terrorist action and any killing. And also we are very much against any plots to sow the seeds of discord among nations. Usually you go to these sites to pay your respects. And also to perhaps air your views about the root causes of such incidents. I think that when I do that, I will be paying, as I said earlier, my respect to the American nation.

PELLEY: But the American people, sir, believe that your country is a terrorist nation, exporting terrorism in the world. You must have known that visiting the World Trade Center site would infuriate many Americans, as if to be mocking the American people.

AHMADINEJAD: Well, I'm amazed. How can you speak for the whole of the American nation?

PELLEY: Well, the American nation . . .


AHMADINEJAD: . . . you are representing a media and you're a reporter. The American nation is made up of 300 million people. There are different points of view over there. I would like to think that the points of view of the American people is very close to the points of view of the Iranian people. The American people are very much against and opposed what certain American officials are saying and their points of view. And they're also, the way that the people have voted in the American elections is very telling. And we are criticizing such behavior on the part of the American government. We believe that if anyone just allows himself to accuse others, there will be no possibility for peace and friendship

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lets talk about him without shooting him down over what you believe or dont believe in the zionist state.
     
PaperNotes
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Sep 24, 2007, 04:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by peeb View Post
Sounds like Bush.
Bush is a plank of wood. Ahmedinejad is a piece of ****. Always be happy with the plank. Anything more or less is bad.
     
lpkmckenna
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Sep 24, 2007, 04:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by AHMADINEJAD
Usually you go to these sites to pay your respects. And also to perhaps air your views about the root causes of such incidents.
No, that's not the place to "air your views." Grow up, little tyrant.
     
Cold Warrior
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Sep 24, 2007, 04:59 PM
 
Much like the speech was an opportunity to see the tyrant for the sick, freakish tool of evil that he is, this thread is an opportunity to see MacNN's most vile members who are so devoid of perspective and logic that they defend this murderer, his system of government, and his views.

You would be honored guests in Tehran.
     
invisibleX
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Sep 24, 2007, 05:17 PM
 
Sigh. Why do people have to respond to hate with more hate? It is absolutely ridiculous to call someone a tool of evil, or really evil at all. You cannot, by definition, BE evil. Not possible.
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Cold Warrior
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Sep 24, 2007, 05:23 PM
 
That's your opinion. Super bad people = evil.
     
peeb
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Sep 24, 2007, 05:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by PaperNotes View Post
Bush is a plank of wood. Ahmedinejad is a piece of ****. Always be happy with the plank. Anything more or less is bad.
How many countries has Ahmedinejad invaded?
     
Cold Warrior
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Sep 24, 2007, 05:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by peeb View Post
How many countries has Ahmedinejad invaded?
Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon, Israel, and the US Embassy in Tehran.

One doesn't need armies. He sends his terrorist spawn throughout the region to inflict death and destruction on others, including his Muslim brothers.
     
Ado
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Sep 24, 2007, 06:06 PM
 
I find what Israel is doing to the Palestinians evil.
Having just come back from Jordan and Tel Aviv, how many Americans I met who came to the "promised land" only to find it full of russian and american scammers and a military desperate for youth. They meet the Palestinians and know its wrong like many orthodox do yet cant protest because of the pressure. Zionism works by sacrificing the innocent, zionism isnt an israeli idea.
Not all jews are zionists, just the deluded ones.

See, its all a matter of ones views..Evil is an act and not an embodiment.
     
peeb
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Sep 24, 2007, 06:07 PM
 
Really? When did he do this 'invading'? I think you need to do a little research.
     
invisibleX
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Sep 24, 2007, 06:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cold Warrior View Post
That's your opinion. Super bad people = evil.
I didn't state an opinion. You can't be evil. You can do evil things but you cannot be evil. Saying someone is evil is saying that they are beyond redemption and that just isn't a judgement anyone is qualified to make.
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Cold Warrior
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Sep 24, 2007, 06:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by peeb View Post
Really? When did he do this 'invading'? I think you need to do a little research.
I think you need to do a little research yourself. Nothing complicated -- just tuning into the world.
     
Cold Warrior
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Sep 24, 2007, 06:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by invisibleX View Post
I didn't state an opinion. You can't be evil. You can do evil things but you cannot be evil.
Doing evil makes you evil.
     
peeb
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Sep 24, 2007, 06:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cold Warrior View Post
I think you need to do a little research yourself. Nothing complicated -- just tuning into the world.
Actually, it is you who needs to get your facts straight. In the interests of demonizing someone you are playing fast and loose with the truth. For the record, he has not invaded ANY countries. Unlike some evil lunatic leaders.
     
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Sep 24, 2007, 06:33 PM
 
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Cold Warrior
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Sep 24, 2007, 06:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by peeb View Post
Actually, it is you who needs to get your facts straight. In the interests of demonizing someone you are playing fast and loose with the truth. For the record, he has not invaded ANY countries. Unlike some evil lunatic leaders.
Sending your terrorist minions to other countries to inflict death and destruction on others, including your own religious brethren, definitely counts as invasion. Iran uses asymmetric means to invade because it is incapable of projecting traditional military force.
     
peeb
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Sep 24, 2007, 06:43 PM
 
No, there is a clear difference between sending minions to other countries to (for example the CIA in Iran in 1953) and invading another country, for example, the US in Iraq in 2003. While the US helped to topple an elected leader in 1953, that was not an invasion. Try again.
     
Cold Warrior
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Sep 24, 2007, 06:49 PM
 
What's the difference? Only numbers. The effect that you rail against Bush for is the same -- death, destruction, the perversion of individual human rights, persecution, oppression.
     
peeb
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Sep 24, 2007, 06:54 PM
 
The difference is clear - invasion involves occupation, simply using thugs to destabilize, which was the preferred US tactic before Bush, does not. YOU made the claim that Ahmedinejad had invaded a number of countries. You are clearly wrong about that - just admit it, apologize unreservedly for your lack of insight and research, grovel a little, and we can move on.
     
invisibleX
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Sep 24, 2007, 06:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cold Warrior View Post
Doing evil makes you evil.
So you're saying he isn't a person but a moral extreme? Thats beyond silly. You don't know him as a person and you're not in a position to ever judge anyone on that level.

I'm sorry but this isn't a black and white world and you're not holding a paint brush. I will judge people by their words and actions but I won't impose my morality or religion on them.
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peeb
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Sep 24, 2007, 06:56 PM
 
We should have a War on Evil!
     
Cold Warrior
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Sep 24, 2007, 06:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by peeb View Post
The difference is clear - invasion involves occupation, simply using thugs to destabilize, which was the preferred US tactic before Bush, does not. YOU made the claim that Ahmedinejad had invaded a number of countries. You are clearly wrong about that - just admit it, apologize unreservedly for your lack of insight and research, grovel a little, and we can move on.
No one ever moves on in the pol war lounge. That's just the way it is.

And you're still wrong. Invasion by proxy is still invasion.
     
Cold Warrior
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Sep 24, 2007, 06:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by invisibleX View Post
So you're saying he isn't a person but a moral extreme? Thats beyond silly. You don't know him as a person and you're not in a position to ever judge anyone on that level.
I don't need to have tea with him to know he's evil. Our position as human beings with an interest in this world and the fate of our species allow us to make judgments -- good, evil, bad, crazy, criminal.
     
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Sep 24, 2007, 07:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cold Warrior View Post
No one ever moves on in the pol war lounge. That's just the way it is.
And you're still wrong. Invasion by proxy is still invasion.
Well, there are the commonly used, plain definitions of words like 'invasion', that most of the world uses, and then there seems to be your personal definition, or perhaps you'd like to show me some usage of the word 'invasion' by serious sources that use it in the sense of 'not invading'?
Perhaps, while you're at it, you could make the case for why the word 'ridiculous' really means 'perfectly plausible'?
     
Cold Warrior
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Sep 24, 2007, 07:04 PM
 
You're the one sympathizing with an oppressive monster, distorting reality and his role in the region to fit your twisted definitions.
     
tie
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Sep 24, 2007, 07:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by PaperNotes View Post
It is the elite conservative clerics who are the problem in Iran. Once their generation with their backwards thinking dies out then Iran will progress forward like Turkey has been slowly doing.
Not really. They have the power, not subject to democratic restraints, and they will never voluntarily give it up. I think ultimately there will either be a revolution (not likely in a modern-day police state), the US will overthrow them (not likely), or eventually the country will close in on itself like North Korea. Could the status quo remain indefinitely? Iran's attempts to build a nuclear weapon make that less likely.

Originally Posted by wallinbl
The introduction from the Columbia President was rude. You invited the guy to come over and speak and acted like it was important to hear his views even if they differed from yours, but then you slam him before he gets to talk.
He deserves to be insulted. He's held in scorn by 99% of Americans, and I don't see any reason he should be isolated from that fact. He gets his PR, we get to laugh at him. Win win.
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Sep 24, 2007, 07:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by peeb View Post
We should have a War on Evil!
Or a War on Stupid.
     
ebuddy
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Sep 24, 2007, 07:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by tie View Post
He deserves to be insulted. He's held in scorn by 99% of Americans, and I don't see any reason he should be isolated from that fact. He gets his PR, we get to laugh at him. Win win.
ebuddy
     
ebuddy
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Sep 24, 2007, 08:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by peeb View Post
Well, there are the commonly used, plain definitions of words like 'invasion', that most of the world uses, and then there seems to be your personal definition, or perhaps you'd like to show me some usage of the word 'invasion' by serious sources that use it in the sense of 'not invading'?
Perhaps, while you're at it, you could make the case for why the word 'ridiculous' really means 'perfectly plausible'?
I think the commonly held definition of invasion would be; infringement by intrusion. Right? I mean, are you really going to split hairs between "sponsored terrorism [the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.] in other countries" style of invasion and "military offensive" style of invasion? Really?

I'm kind of surprised at how feeble this argument truly is peeb. Why don't you admit that you've been pretty well shot down on that point and move on to a more ludicrous one?

Secondly, Are you really trying to suggest that the US is alone in it's "less-than-noble" intentions or is it possible human nature exists all around the world peeb? I mean, is it really as simple as Ahmadinejad-good, US-bad?
ebuddy
     
wallinbl
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Sep 24, 2007, 08:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by tie View Post
He deserves to be insulted. He's held in scorn by 99% of Americans, and I don't see any reason he should be isolated from that fact. He gets his PR, we get to laugh at him. Win win.
That's completely juvenile, which is fine for an Internet message forum, but not for a university. This guy is the leader of a country that is building nuclear weapons and is a considerable concern in a volatile area of the world where we are currently engaged in military action. It would seem that reasonable discourse would be more prudent than open insults. Disagreement is not grounds for behaving immaturely, unless you're The Andrew Meyer.
     
tie
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Sep 24, 2007, 08:35 PM
 
His own positions are pretty juvenile, I don't think he deserves much respect. I disagree with your implied contention that attempting to build nuclear weapons makes a country respectable. I also think it is worse to let political leaders live in a bubble, than to put them in touch with reality every once in a while. If he were a State Dept official, then I'd agree with you, but the Columbia President is not a US diplomat.
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It will depart at 20 minutes to 5.
     
Cold Warrior
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Sep 24, 2007, 08:47 PM
 
The Columbia pres showed some stones today, although giving that tool a platform to begin with was a mistake.
     
invisibleX
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Sep 24, 2007, 09:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cold Warrior View Post
I don't need to have tea with him to know he's evil. Our position as human beings with an interest in this world and the fate of our species allow us to make judgments -- good, evil, bad, crazy, criminal.
Yes, thats what we call ignorance. Labeling people does not help anyone.

I'm not advocating his actions but we have two choices here: recognize that he is just a man, no different than anyone else, or we say he's evil. You either negotiate with the former or annihilate the latter because once you say someone is evil, once you demonize them, you create a demon and there is no turning back.
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Cold Warrior
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Sep 24, 2007, 09:13 PM
 
Yes, labeling does help. It lets everyone know who to stay the heck away from. Scammers, junkies, criminals, et al. All society's way of labeling the good from the bad so that others are aware of their traits -- or at least the allegations.

Your choices are wrong as well. One can negotiate with evil, attempt to contain it and marginalize it over time so that it is an evil and a threat to no one but itself and (in his case) its country. He is certainly a man -- an evil, misguided one who would sooner annihilate millions than deal with them.
     
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Sep 24, 2007, 09:47 PM
 

A necessary evil?


BTW I think Condi got lucky that night.
     
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Sep 24, 2007, 09:55 PM
 
Why is there always money for war, but none for education?
     
Cold Warrior
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Sep 24, 2007, 10:02 PM
 
Hah, he's on the Air America Network. So he gets, what, ten listeners?

Otherwise, I understand his views, but respectfully disagree.
     
peeb
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Sep 24, 2007, 11:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cold Warrior View Post
You're the one sympathizing with an oppressive monster, distorting reality and his role in the region to fit your twisted definitions.
Yes, resorting to insults does show that you're out of rational responses, but does not replace an abject apology for the nonsense you wrote - try again!
     
 
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