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Fast cars, bow before your new leader: (Page 3)
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imitchellg5
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Dec 24, 2007, 01:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by IceEnclosure View Post
So the Audi loses? Got it. Bringing a gun to a knife fight, you'll win every time!

(show me a video of YOU in an RS4 whooping a Z06 and you win Mr. Awesome!)

edit: No really, show me something. Facts. Show me an stock-ish RS4 winning a race on dry tarmac with equal drivers/tires vs. a stock-ish Z06 Vette.

Your next post should have some links.
YouTube - Corvette Z06 Vs Audi RS4 MTM
Oops! RS4 looses.
     
MallyMal
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Dec 24, 2007, 02:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
WTF? Was that bike even racing?
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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Dec 24, 2007, 02:45 PM
 
You guys are filling the Ca$h void nicely.
     
imitchellg5
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Dec 24, 2007, 02:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by MallyMal View Post
WTF? Was that bike even racing?
Yeah, I kind of wondered what he was doing there.
     
IceEnclosure  (op)
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Dec 25, 2007, 01:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
You guys are filling the Ca$h void nicely.
ha, thanks

ice
     
IceEnclosure  (op)
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Dec 25, 2007, 01:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by angelmb View Post
I mean the new Corvette is clearly fast, would be silly to deny that, but to label it as fast cars' new leader is too… enthusiast, patriotic?.

pssst pssst: don't take 'patriotic' as being politic stuff, -good or not that good we all know the Corvette is an american icon- it is just like an average german would tell you german cars are the best thing, so does any italian but Giorgio Armani about italian cars, hell, even a french would say french cars rule the world… It becomes hard to a spaniard do the same about spanish cars though, everybody knows SEATs sucks.

I guess I mean to say that the thing is(will be) cheap, and does(will do) everything the big boy mega-exotics can do, performance-wise.

Not to mention that currently, one can pick up a current gen Z06 and do similar ego smashing to exotic car owners also.

ice
     
angelmb
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Dec 25, 2007, 06:03 AM
 
Thats for sure, you can find second hand Mustangs in Germany @ 14000 € haha, you couldn't even buy the upcoming 2008 Focus with that little money… even with the new 2008 legislation about taxes which benefit cars like Focus who doesn't pollute that much, 15000 € gives you a 80CV Focus, now that's fast !!

BTW: I don't give a dime really, with current speed limits being 50, 90, 120 who freaking cares… (that's Spain BTW).
     
Shaddim
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Dec 25, 2007, 12:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by IceEnclosure View Post
I guess I mean to say that the thing is(will be) cheap, and does(will do) everything the big boy mega-exotics can do, performance-wise.

Not to mention that currently, one can pick up a current gen Z06 and do similar ego smashing to exotic car owners also.

You can do the same thing with an Exige S, and it looks better (more exotic) and gets you 29mpg on the highway.
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imitchellg5
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Dec 25, 2007, 12:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
You can do the same thing with an Exige S, and it looks better (more exotic) and gets you 29mpg on the highway.
Great car, except you don't want to be on the highway long enough to get 29 mpg in that thing.
     
Ado
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Dec 25, 2007, 12:09 PM
 
Italians, Germans and Japanese build the best cars.
American cars are always compromised. Just give up and import your cars from these guys, youll be more happier.
     
Shaddim
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Dec 25, 2007, 12:20 PM
 
I had a blast driving a friend's Elise, the handling was insane and it surprised me how much zip it had for a 4-banger. Of course, he'd had it modified quite a bit, and I think it was pushing close to 260bhp. It would take corners in ways that my M3 could only dream about.
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imitchellg5
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Dec 25, 2007, 01:40 PM
 
I think Lotus is truly a special automaker. They can take an underpowered engine, massage it to perfection, and make a chassis that is incredibly light and strong for a relatively low price.
     
pooka
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Dec 25, 2007, 01:53 PM
 
Yeah, I made the mistake of going up against an Exige S a few months ago. At first I thought it was a vette coming up on me. Tried losing it in some twists and almost **** my pants when I saw this thing fly through corners my M3 could never hope to do. Been in love with it ever since.

I really do think that will be my next ride.

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IceEnclosure  (op)
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Dec 25, 2007, 02:53 PM
 
There's a couple of Exiges/Exige S cars that buzz around the beach all day, pretty cool. Awesome track car(street car even) just a little spartan.

The Vette has heads up display, bluetooth, etc.. it's definitely more liveable, especially on the highway.

A Lotus Exige can't do 200mph either.

Merry Christmas!
ice
     
Shaddim
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Dec 25, 2007, 03:15 PM
 
Doesn't really matter for 99.9999% of people whether a car can do 200mph, you notice the handling and 0-100 much more. I can do 170 in my M3 (it's hardly stock) but I can't remember the last time I had it over 120.

Also, when people see the Lotus profile and the badge they go nuts. More often than not, when anyone looks at just about any domestic they think "oh, it's another one of those". My BMW gets more reactions than my uncle's Z06.
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hwojtek
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Dec 25, 2007, 03:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by IceEnclosure View Post
So the Audi loses? Got it. Bringing a gun to a knife fight, you'll win every time!
Sure. You will be the only one left alive, and your that would be a tasteless victory. It's important to win with style, pal.

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure View Post
(show me a video of YOU in an RS4 whooping a Z06 and you win Mr. Awesome!)
Show me your SSN and credit card number and I'll believe you're not a teenager.
You know I cannot present you with such a video. However, we've got a nice track over here (Google your way to check it out) and let's see what've got there...

SSS :: View topic - ALT 19.11.2006 - wyniki, komentarze, zdjcia, filmy

Hmmm. No Vettes? That's odd, since most of us are quite capable of bringing virtually anything appropriate to a track, cost is no option (and Vettes are dirt cheap, compared to european cars BTW). I wonder why. Maybe because it is not suitable?

Ohm, the record lap time on our track has been set by a FIA GT Saleen... It's 1:38s, so for a stock, road-legal car to be within 10% of that lap time means it can corner. Is a Vette able to keep within 10% of a 'Ring laptime set by a FIA GT car?

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure View Post
Show me an stock-ish RS4 winning a race on dry tarmac with equal drivers/tires vs. a stock-ish Z06 Vette.
I do not have to do your homework and prove your theories. You claim a stock (possibly 2008) Vette is faster on a tight, twisty track than a stock 2007 (they're no longer produced until B8 platform will be 2 years old) Audi RS4. You must have never been even close to a proper european car, buddy, but I am giving you a chance. Prove I am wrong. Remember: tight & twisty. Not a straight one coast to coast in US of A.
Wojtek

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hwojtek
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Dec 25, 2007, 04:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
I think Lotus is truly a special automaker. They can take an underpowered engine, massage it to perfection, and make a chassis that is incredibly light and strong for a relatively low price.
No sir. It's the chassis. The engines used by Lotus have always been (and, actually, still almost all are) stock units from Honda or Toyota. The superchargers are a thing of recent few years and a Elise 111 had only 120HP to begin with. Still, sub-7 0-62mph.
But you cannot compare a Lotus with a Vette. Lotus doesn't have anything that makes a driver's live even a bit pleasant. It's a pure sports machine.
Wojtek

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Shaddim
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Dec 25, 2007, 04:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by hwojtek View Post
But you cannot compare a Lotus with a Vette. Lotus doesn't have anything that makes a driver's live even a bit pleasant. It's a pure sports machine.
Except that they look hot, where a post-`67 `vette looks like ass.
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pooka
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Dec 25, 2007, 04:49 PM
 
Which is why I find the Exige so appealing. Doing 150+ in a vette or an M3 is fun. The first 10 times... Soon after you realize that you can't even tell how fast you're going. You feel so plush and coddled that you lose a bit of the excitement. As a daily driver, most of these modern "sports" cars are great. The Exige on the other hand, it makes you feel like you might die just sitting in it.

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pooka
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Dec 25, 2007, 04:51 PM
 
Of course, we could all just stop being pussies and get Ariel Atoms.

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mrtew
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Dec 25, 2007, 05:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
I'm not gonna lie to you – I think these people talking about a lack of taste are full of ****. That thing has comparable visual taste to any other car on the road that's designed to do one thing – go as fast as possible and intimidate everyone else, no holds barred. I think it looks pretty badass.
Thanks! I agree, except for the hood that I worked on for almost a year.... that still looks weird to me. You people have no idea how much effort goes into trying to make cars look good. If it was easy Toyota would be doing it!

That said, I'm really not impressed. Big effin deal, you can put a bigger motor in an effin 'Vette – whoop de ****ing do. It's this kind of mentality that makes me want to see these big American car companies crashed and burned and bankrupt.
Oh real nice. GM pours billions of dollars a year into making cars to please virtually every buyer in most of the world and still sells more cars that anyone else despite excellent competition from literally dozens of brilliant companies producing hundreds of lovely cars like that cute little wagon that's giving everyone wood and you just want us to die and pull down the entire economy with us? Think it thru. GM is turning itself around fast and you pointing at one product or another of ours and saying that's a reason for the company to disappear says more about you than us. We may even have an affordable electric car out before that stunning but miniature $120,000 Lotus/Tesla finally makes it to the road.
( Last edited by mrtew; Dec 25, 2007 at 05:51 PM. )

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Shaddim
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Dec 25, 2007, 05:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by pooka View Post
Of course, we could all just stop being pussies and get Ariel Atoms.
I had a huge stiffy for an Atom when they were announced, but I just can't justify such a thing.
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Shaddim
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Dec 25, 2007, 05:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by pooka View Post
Which is why I find the Exige so appealing. Doing 150+ in a vette or an M3 is fun. The first 10 times... Soon after you realize that you can't even tell how fast you're going. You feel so plush and coddled that you lose a bit of the excitement. As a daily driver, most of these modern "sports" cars are great. The Exige on the other hand, it makes you feel like you might die just sitting in it.
I think that's part of the allure, both the Elise and Exige induce a ridiculously high pucker factor in the rectal region.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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imitchellg5
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Dec 25, 2007, 05:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by hwojtek View Post
But you cannot compare a Lotus with a Vette. Lotus doesn't have anything that makes a driver's live even a bit pleasant. It's a pure sports machine.
I agree. It's basically a track car. That being said, I'm amazed at how many Elises I see in Colorado Springs. I've seen at least 10 in the last two months out on our horrid roads.
     
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Dec 25, 2007, 05:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by hwojtek View Post
Two words: live axle.^H^H^^H^H^H^H LOL LEAFSPRINGS!!11! LOL PUSHRODS!
fixed. tard.
     
imitchellg5
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Dec 25, 2007, 06:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by hwojtek View Post
Sure. You will be the only one left alive, and your that would be a tasteless victory. It's important to win with style, pal.



Show me your SSN and credit card number and I'll believe you're not a teenager.
You know I cannot present you with such a video. However, we've got a nice track over here (Google your way to check it out) and let's see what've got there...

SSS :: View topic - ALT 19.11.2006 - wyniki, komentarze, zdj�cia, filmy

Hmmm. No Vettes? That's odd, since most of us are quite capable of bringing virtually anything appropriate to a track, cost is no option (and Vettes are dirt cheap, compared to european cars BTW). I wonder why. Maybe because it is not suitable?

Ohm, the record lap time on our track has been set by a FIA GT Saleen... It's 1:38s, so for a stock, road-legal car to be within 10% of that lap time means it can corner. Is a Vette able to keep within 10% of a 'Ring laptime set by a FIA GT car?



I do not have to do your homework and prove your theories. You claim a stock (possibly 2008) Vette is faster on a tight, twisty track than a stock 2007 (they're no longer produced until B8 platform will be 2 years old) Audi RS4. You must have never been even close to a proper european car, buddy, but I am giving you a chance. Prove I am wrong. Remember: tight & twisty. Not a straight one coast to coast in US of A.
While I don't doubt your credentials, you can easily find a video on YouTube of Top Gear testing a RS4 vs. the last-gen CTS-V, a car that features the base Corvette engine. They give their legendary racing driver, the Stig, the RS-4 and the CTS to Jeremy Clarkson. The Stig can't beat the CTS. The CTS pulls ahead easily in the straights. I think if a CTS can beat a RS-4, then a ZR1 can do it easily.
     
analogika
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Dec 25, 2007, 06:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by mrtew View Post
GM pours billions of dollars a year into making cars to please virtually every buyer in most of the world and still sells more cars that anyone else
Nope - Toyota just today announced sales of 9.51 million cars this year, as compared to GM's 9.26 million.

That doesn't really scratch your point, though; it's just a nitpick.

Carry on.
     
imitchellg5
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Dec 25, 2007, 06:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogika View Post
Nope - Toyota just today announced sales of 9.51 million cars this year, as compared to GM's 9.26 million.

That doesn't really scratch your point, though; it's just a nitpick.

Carry on.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't it been only in the last few years that Toyota has overtaken GM?
     
analogika
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Dec 25, 2007, 06:15 PM
 
This year is the first time, according to the article I just read on Tagesschau.de
     
mrtew
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Dec 25, 2007, 06:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't it been only in the last few years that Toyota has overtaken GM?
Nope, only as of today. But the lovely American press has been hyping and pushing for it for the last several years. Buy foreign! Buy Toyota! GM's losing share! Rah Rah Rah! (Sickening)

I love the U.S., but we need some time apart.
     
imitchellg5
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Dec 25, 2007, 06:25 PM
 
Pssh. I think if GM can make more cars like the new Malibu and CTS that they will be back on top in no time.
     
mrtew
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Dec 25, 2007, 06:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
Pssh. I think if GM can make more cars like the new Malibu and CTS that they will be back on top in no time.
Thanks, that's the plan. We're trying. Those cars didn't just happen by accident. And we obviously have no one to blame for our troubles but ourselves, but people don't need to take such joy in bashing us either, nor wish us harm.... that's uncalled-for.

I love the U.S., but we need some time apart.
     
analogika
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Dec 25, 2007, 06:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by mrtew View Post
Nope, only as of today. But the lovely American press has been hyping and pushing for it for the last several years. Buy foreign! Buy Toyota! GM's losing share! Rah Rah Rah! (Sickening)
I'm sure oil prices and Toyota's priority on compacts and fuel-efficient hybrids had nothing to do with it...
     
mrtew
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Dec 25, 2007, 06:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogika View Post
I'm sure oil prices and Toyota's priority on compacts and fuel-efficient hybrids had nothing to do with it...
We obviously have no one to blame for our troubles but ourselves, but people don't need to take such joy in bashing us either, nor wish us harm.... that's uncalled-for.

I love the U.S., but we need some time apart.
     
Shaddim
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Dec 25, 2007, 06:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by mrtew View Post
Nope, only as of today. But the lovely American press has been hyping and pushing for it for the last several years. Buy foreign! Buy Toyota! GM's losing share! Rah Rah Rah! (Sickening)
What's better, a GM car built in Mexico or a Toyota built in Indiana?
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imitchellg5
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Dec 25, 2007, 06:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by mrtew View Post
Thanks, that's the plan. We're trying. Those cars didn't just happen by accident.
Ha ha, I can tell. I've spent a week with the new CTS and it's a genuinely nice car. Fun to drive, very comfortable, and probably the best interior this side of the Atlantic.
     
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Dec 25, 2007, 07:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by IceEnclosure View Post
The official answer, however, is: The track. People take their cars to the track all the time, and a typical Z06/ZR1 owner is no exception. For instance, if I had a ZR1, I'd participate in track days at Moroso and Sebring, which are both within a few hours of me.
And in order to do more than a few laps, you will need to put on racing brake pads and shaved tires. If you really want to ring it out you will need a larger oil cooler, some sort of ancillary tranny cooler, completely new brakes and, maybe, rotors and you will have to change all of your suspension settings, as every car sold understeers at the limit, which is the exact opposite of what you want a car to do on the track.

Cars sold for the road--and I don't care if it's Chevrolet or Porsche or Bugatti--don't belong on the track, as road and track are completely opposite environments. That's why a $20,000 Formula Ford, with a normally aspirated inline four, will lap faster than cars costing $500,000.

Sorry to be a bummer here, but, in my experience, cars like this are really meant for people with more money than sense. I've been to open track days at Lime Rock and watched the weekend warriors come to run their high-priced toys. Within a few hard laps the brakes are fading, the tires are slipping, the cars are overheating and the drivers are sweating as they realize they're in over their heads.
The era of anthropomorphizing hardware is over.
     
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Dec 25, 2007, 10:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
I agree. It's basically a track car. That being said, I'm amazed at how many Elises I see in Colorado Springs. I've seen at least 10 in the last two months out on our horrid roads.
AFAIR the USA don't get thoroughbred Lotus cars as we got in Europe. The ride is still stiff, however.
Wojtek

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hwojtek
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Dec 25, 2007, 10:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
Top Gear testing a RS4 vs. the last-gen CTS-V, a car that features the base Corvette engine.
Yes, I know it. I know the bottom line "lack of refinement" or, to quote Jezza "old persons' car with a hammer inside it".
I don't think anybody here has even the slightest temptation to think of a car as a complete package, not an engine on wheels. Build quality, technical finesse, performance, comfort - even in a sports car, all of these need to be balanced well. And the fact that by attaching a supercharger to a 6+ litre engine the Vette has reached 500+ hp doesn't prove anything - except for the joke the greenhouse emission concerns of its makers.

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
They give their legendary racing driver, the Stig, the RS-4 and the CTS to Jeremy Clarkson. The Stig can't beat the CTS. The CTS pulls ahead easily in the straights. I think if a CTS can beat a RS-4, then a ZR1 can do it easily.
Oh yeah, has roughly the same power and is about the same weight, but has one axle less to power. It's a no-brainer. The CTS-V wins hands down. And it still doesn't prove anything.
The point is, an RS4 is a rare collectors item. A CTS-V is not. And the RS4 delivers a complete package, while the CTS-V lacks substantial build quality (especially the interior) to be seriously considered a "luxury" sport sedan. They are almost the same - but this "almost" makes the Audi experience a whole lot different. I've driven the next-gen Audi A4-based cars and the gap will be even wider next year.

BTW, the Stig is not "a driver". "He" is quite a bunch of drivers, sometimes a single episode of Top Gear features two or more "Stigs". Most of them do about 3 or 4 episodes, they used to do a whole season, but now as Top Gear shifted more into comedy from cars, more and more drivers are invited to drive and their laptimes etc must be taken with a grain of salt.
( Last edited by hwojtek; Dec 25, 2007 at 10:35 PM. )
Wojtek

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Dec 26, 2007, 12:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
What's better, a GM car built in Mexico or a Toyota built in Indiana?
Mexico.

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Dec 26, 2007, 01:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by hwojtek View Post
Remember: tight & twisty. Not a straight one coast to coast in US of A.
does the fact that the car pulls over 1g on the skidpad not hit you in the head when you say stuff like that?

you're trying to play the "i'm arguing with a dumb american who doesn't know cars exist outside of the dragstrip and the US of A" and it's not working out too well.

Z06/ZR1 outperforms the RS4 in every way except when it comes to your opinion on it's styling. That's cool, but you should have just said that in the first place!

Audis are very nice though with beautiful interiors. And the S models, with their aluminum mirrors and massaged motors, so nice. Superb handling too, for a non-dedicated sports car.

Bragging rights go to the 'Vette though. Because it's faster. In all aspects. And when he leaves the Audi in the dust(on the straights or in the turns) he doesn't have to look at the Audi at all, so he won't feel bad about not purchasing such a beautiful car in the first place. Heh, he'll be the winner anyway, and winning is good.

hmm, are you going to end up citing mini-parking lot solo-type events as the proper venue to prove your "tight and twisty" theory?

oh, and why did this thread have to become a vette vs' audi thing?
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IceEnclosure  (op)
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Dec 26, 2007, 01:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by Don Pickett View Post
And in order to do more than a few laps, you will need to put on racing brake pads and shaved tires. If you really want to ring it out you will need a larger oil cooler, some sort of ancillary tranny cooler, completely new brakes and, maybe, rotors and you will have to change all of your suspension settings, as every car sold understeers at the limit, which is the exact opposite of what you want a car to do on the track.

Cars sold for the road--and I don't care if it's Chevrolet or Porsche or Bugatti--don't belong on the track, as road and track are completely opposite environments. That's why a $20,000 Formula Ford, with a normally aspirated inline four, will lap faster than cars costing $500,000.

Sorry to be a bummer here, but, in my experience, cars like this are really meant for people with more money than sense. I've been to open track days at Lime Rock and watched the weekend warriors come to run their high-priced toys. Within a few hard laps the brakes are fading, the tires are slipping, the cars are overheating and the drivers are sweating as they realize they're in over their heads.

A few of my friends have track rims/tires in their garage, big jugs of HP brake fluid, pads, etc. They do the weekend-warrior road racing thing with their daily road cars, and it seems like a blast, if not a bit expensive. Obviously beyond going out and testing your skill for a few laps you'd have to make big changes to cooling and such, but most of these guys are already upgrading their cars in all aspects anyhow. I'm not suggesting that people who drive around in stock cars want to go to track days. And that removes about 80% of the automotive public I'd imagine.

One of the first mods I bought for my Mustang was a set of caster/camber plates. So what if I gotta change the suspension settings? I used to do it for fun on the street!
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Shaddim
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Dec 26, 2007, 01:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
Mexico.

Hey, I have no issues with it. I'd buy one even if it were being built in Iran.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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mrtew
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Dec 26, 2007, 01:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by hwojtek View Post
The point is, an RS4 is a rare collectors item. A CTS-V is not. And the RS4 delivers a complete package, while the CTS-V lacks substantial build quality (especially the interior) to be seriously considered a "luxury" sport sedan.
I'm sure that neither you nor anyone else lusting after the Audi has never owned one for more than a year or two. They are beautiful irresistible cars when new, and would make a great lease car, but their "substantial build quality" is purely surface deep. Just like any VW, they start shedding parts after 3 or 4 years and have very few left after 5 or 6. Check the price of used ones for a good laugh. Nobody has ever bought two Audis. After 10 years a Vette's value is starting to go back up and an Audi is in the junkyard. How's that for a Vette vs. Audi comparison!

I love the U.S., but we need some time apart.
     
Don Pickett
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Dec 26, 2007, 01:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by IceEnclosure View Post
One of the first mods I bought for my Mustang was a set of caster/camber plates. So what if I gotta change the suspension settings? I used to do it for fun on the street!
True. But, in my experience, which I don't claim to be universal at all, most of the people who buy seriously fast cars are into it more to have a big toy than to really drive it, so most of those cars either go unused or end up deep in the brambles near turn five at Lime Rock (and the brambles are so thick there that, if you go deep enough, they have to come cut you out).

My other problem with supercars is that most people aren't good drivers. Now, most people think they're good drivers, but any time spent driving around the U.S. will prove to you that most people aren't that good because they plain don't pay attention, never mind that they couldn't tell the difference between understeer or oversteer.
The era of anthropomorphizing hardware is over.
     
Shaddim
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Dec 26, 2007, 01:34 AM
 
I'm sure that neither you nor anyone else lusting after the Audi has never owned one for more than a year or two. They are beautiful irresistible cars when new, and would make a great lease car, but their "substantial build quality" is purely surface deep. Just like any VW, they start shedding parts after 3 or 4 years and have very few left after 5 or 6. Check the price of used ones for a good laugh. Nobody has ever bought two Audis. After 10 years a Vette's value is starting to go back up and an Audi is in the junkyard. How's that for a Vette vs. Audi comparison!
Sorry, but that's crap. My mom has a `98 Passat with over 120K miles and it's been solid. Everyone I know who buys a VW or Audi loves them and usually buys another, unless they upgrade to a BMW or Merc.

I drove a `93 Corrado VR6, and to this day I still love that car. I probably would have bought another VW if I hadn't found such a great deal on an M3.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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IceEnclosure  (op)
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Dec 26, 2007, 03:43 AM
 
Problem with supercars is that they say "here you guy moneybags, here's your new 600HP car".

That's more HP than MOST racing classes. (with real racers behind the wheel)
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ctt1wbw
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Dec 26, 2007, 05:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by analogika View Post
Nope - Toyota just today announced sales of 9.51 million cars this year, as compared to GM's 9.26 million.

That doesn't really scratch your point, though; it's just a nitpick.

Carry on.

Is this number excluding the number of rental cars that companies buy? Personally, I think Toyotas are some of the most overhyped cars on the road. They have, what, 50 thousand models, and not one has a soul or any kind of attention to detail that many other manufacturers have. Yeah, the Corrolla and Camry are some of the most b-e-a-yootiful cars on the road...
     
analogika
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Dec 26, 2007, 06:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by ctt1wbw View Post
Is this number excluding the number of rental cars that companies buy? Personally, I think Toyotas are some of the most overhyped cars on the road. They have, what, 50 thousand models, and not one has a soul or any kind of attention to detail that many other manufacturers have. Yeah, the Corrolla and Camry are some of the most b-e-a-yootiful cars on the road...
"Beauty" ends at the wallet for most people who have to pay their own bills.
     
imitchellg5
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Dec 26, 2007, 09:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by ctt1wbw View Post
Is this number excluding the number of rental cars that companies buy? Personally, I think Toyotas are some of the most overhyped cars on the road. They have, what, 50 thousand models, and not one has a soul or any kind of attention to detail that many other manufacturers have. Yeah, the Corrolla and Camry are some of the most b-e-a-yootiful cars on the road...
Toyota needs to be reminded that cars can actually be fun. My mom had a 6 speed Corolla XRS for a little while, and even though it's supposed to be Toyota's "fun" model, it still rode like a 1981 Cutlass and was about as fun to drive as a bed frame. Instead of the normal Corolla personality which mirrors a bunker wall, it was a bunker wall with a picture of Scarlett Johansson. Even though it looked nice, it was still boring when you got down to it.
     
 
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