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Today my 7 year old daughter ...
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mattyb
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Sep 12, 2011, 06:21 PM
 
... was subjected to two boys holding her arms while another boy lifted up her dress and tried to take off her panties. This occurred during recreation in the school yard. The boys involved were in the same year as her which means no more than 8 years old. My daughter has been very calm this evening although she was worried that she might have nightmares.

When I heard her re-tell what happened, I could have very easily ripped the heads off of those involved, but now I'm quite calm. One does have to question how in a small school like hers, this could have happened - the playground isn't exactly large. Luckily, of the group that were watching, one went to get a teacher. I hope that this has nothing to do with her being the 'new girl', since we only just moved at the end of the summer.
     
Sealobo
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Sep 12, 2011, 06:34 PM
 
get her some pants.
     
Shaddim
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Sep 12, 2011, 06:37 PM
 
The boys responsible were expelled, right? I'm not a very litigious person, but if the school didn't bounce them, I'd have lawyers gettin' medieval on that school's ass within a day. Call a coupla hard, pipe-hittin' fellas, who'd go to work on them with a pair of pliers and a blow torch.
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turtle777
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Sep 12, 2011, 06:39 PM
 
It's really hard to tell if this is just a stupid prank of 8 year old boys or more.

Boys and girls at that age can be like cats and dogs. I would be careful in reading too much into it, but I can understand that you'd be worried.

-t
     
turtle777
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Sep 12, 2011, 06:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
The boys responsible were expelled, right? I'm not a very litigious person, but if the school didn't bounce them, I'd have lawyers probing that school's ass within a day. Call a coupla hard, pipe-hittin' lawyers, who'd go to work on them with a pair of pliers and a blow torch.
This didn't happen in Amaraca. I think you need to tuck the lawyers away.

-t
     
Shaddim
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Sep 12, 2011, 06:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
This didn't happen in Amaraca. I think you need to tuck the lawyers away.

-t
Doesn't matter, the French are known for big lawsuits too.
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turtle777
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Sep 12, 2011, 06:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Doesn't matter, the French are known for big lawsuits too.
The French are also known for letting things slip.

DSK anyone ?

-t
     
andi*pandi
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Sep 12, 2011, 06:52 PM
 
At the very least those kids ought to be disciplined (suspended 2 weeks) and I hope the principal has reassured you as to her safety. I hope the boys' parents have reached out to you or there's been some kind of intimidating stare over a conference table where they have to explain their parenting skills.

I'm usually against overreaction-type stories of kids being expelled for hugging or wrestling or pranks, but this was not innocent fun in any way and if it were my kid I'd be livid.

Karate lessons. Sign her up.
     
Athens
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Sep 12, 2011, 06:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
The boys responsible were expelled, right? I'm not a very litigious person, but if the school didn't bounce them, I'd have lawyers gettin' medieval on that school's ass within a day. Call a coupla hard, pipe-hittin' fellas, who'd go to work on them with a pair of pliers and a blow torch.
Oh please, its just kids being stupid kids. If anything the boys should get grounded at home with the parents dealing with it. As was the case when I was a kid. Expelled? Lawyers.... give me a break. Age 12 and up ya maybe something more serious.

The kids Trauma will be a direct reflection of how much Trauma the parent puts out on the kid. If a parent makes a super big deal out of it, that gets imprinted on the child. Im not saying be dismissive about it, but don't over react either. Either way asking Americans whats appropriate is going to result in 2 answers. Jail and something related to lawyers. Remember the country has 1 out of 10 adults in jail, more people in jail then the rest of the world combined including China. Executes the most people on this planet and locks up children in jail while expelling children for something as simple as drawing a gun on a piece of paper. Advice from Americans is not recommended.
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Shaddim
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Sep 12, 2011, 07:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
The French are also known for letting things slip.

DSK anyone ?

-t
Hence the "hard, pipe-hittin' lawyers" to get medieval on them.

If my wife has a girl, there's gonna be some very scared little boys at my daughter's school. "My dad can beat up your dad." "Maybe, but my dad carries a P229 in .357 SIG."
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Shaddim
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Sep 12, 2011, 07:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Oh please, its just kids being stupid kids. If anything the boys should get grounded at home with the parents dealing with it. As was the case when I was a kid. Expelled? Lawyers.... give me a break. Age 12 and up ya maybe something more serious.
You're clueless and have no idea how sick and perverse some pre-teen kids can be. This isn't the case of a girl being pushed or teased, she was in the process of being sexually assaulted. In a neighboring county a first grade girl was raped by three 8-9 y/o boys, one boy held her while the others tortured her by shoving fingers and sticks into her privates. If I had seen it, there would have been a belt coming off and a beating commencing.
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Athens
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Sep 12, 2011, 07:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
You're clueless and have no idea how sick and perverse some pre-teen kids can be. This isn't the case of a girl being pushed or teased, she was in the process of being sexually assaulted. In a neighboring county a first grade girl was raped by three 8-9 y/o boys, one boy held her while the others tortured her by shoving fingers and sticks into her privates. If I had seen it, there would have been a belt coming off and a beating commencing.
Im not subscribing to your pathetic view of the world. Lifting up a skirt is just what it is at that age. Just like pulling up the back of a boys underwear and lifting them off the ground or is that sexual assault now too. Its very dangerous to mix harmless playful stuff that was just normal horse play into adult crimes with kids of that age.

I'll give you a example with fire. When I was a kid, if you where caught playing with fire like putting a cereal box on fire and you got caught it was a parent issue. Today its a criminal issue. Instead of a kid being grounded for a week for playing with fire he is instead a juvenile criminal. Lifting up skirts has ALWAYS been something that occurred on play grounds. So has trying to pull panties down. So has flicking braws (guilty) from behind so it snaps back on her back. So has boys pants'ing boys some times leaving a embarrassed naked boy exposed to pull up his pants and underwear. A group of stupid boys that's all it was. They should get detentions and groundings. I fear the day when all these stupid things become criminal acts which in some states I believe some of them already have.

Now if they forced her into a room, held her down and took her cloth off and it was in a attack way not a goofing off way then it would be a different issue. No laughing involved no playfulness involved, it still wouldn't be a criminal issue it would be a medical and physiological issue.

And yes there are screwed up kids even at age 7, like the one that pored gas on a baby and tried to light it. Or took a gun from the parents to shoot some one they didn't like and so on... You don't treat the 100 stupid kids the same as the few seriously disturbed ones.
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Sep 12, 2011, 07:49 PM
 
I agree with Shaddim.

ps,
It's, poured, I'm, boy's (possessive)

I probably missed a few.


mattyb,
If it's any reassurance, if the event that your daughter went through happened at the school I teach at; well, they'd be sent to a disciplinary school that's near the district. You don't want to be sent there.

I'm also sorry that what happened to her happened; if I had caught that happening, I'm not sure what I'd do. (yes, I wear a belt daily)
     
Shaddim
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Sep 12, 2011, 07:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Im not subscribing to your pathetic view of the world. Lifting up a skirt is just what it is at that age.
No, it isn't. Climb back in your hole, under your bridge, or where ever you came from. Anyone with any sense knows that guys pantsing guys is one thing, but one boy restraining a girl while another boy pulls down her panties is another.

Whichever school we send our kid to had better have corporal punishment, and I hope they use it on my kid if they need it. We didn't pull that kind of thing when I was that age, because we knew the beating we'd get for trying (and the second beating we'd get at home for getting strapped at school).
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brassplayersrock²
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Sep 12, 2011, 08:02 PM
 
Parents these days are so soft. In the last 3 years, I've only come across a handful of parents (a couple dozen pairs out of over a 1000 students) who knew how to properly punish their kids.
You'd be surprised at how easy most of the kids in my area get off in punishment; and how they have their parents twisted around their finger.


brats
     
Shaddim
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Sep 12, 2011, 08:05 PM
 
Oh, there will be spankings in this home. Spankings, groundings, nose in the corner, extra chores, loss of allowance, etc.. I can be very creative.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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andi*pandi
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Sep 12, 2011, 08:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Now if they forced her into a room, held her down and took her cloth off and it was in a attack way not a goofing off way
The minute they restrained her 3 against one it was forcing. No way what they were doing was goofing off.
     
imitchellg5
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Sep 12, 2011, 08:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Lifting up skirts has ALWAYS been something that occurred on play grounds. So has trying to pull panties down. So has flicking braws (guilty) from behind so it snaps back on her back. So has boys pants'ing boys some times leaving a embarrassed naked boy exposed to pull up his pants and underwear. A group of stupid boys that's all it was.
Uh, none of that EVER happened at my school, and I went to school with a bunch of hillbillies.

And what the heck is a "braw?"
     
Waragainstsleep
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Sep 12, 2011, 09:12 PM
 
I can see where Athens is coming from and tbh without being there to witness it, none of us can really claim to know the tone or intentions involved in what went on.

Attitudes towards sex are pretty different in France than in the US (and UK) anyway, at any age but it might just as easily have been misguided, over enthusiastic curiosity.

I recall being in France when I was about 13 and seeing two girls about my age wandering about a campsite full of strangers in nothing but lingerie and thinking even then that it wasn't something I would ever have expected to see back home. (I also remember being disappointed about that).

I do agree with the apparent consensus that a few years older and this would be orders of magnitude more disturbing beyond any doubt.

Rather than going for the school all guns blazing, it would be a whole lot more mature and constructive to request a supervised audience with the boys and their parents to ask them exactly what they were thinking. If you can persuade a cop to attend and look menacing they will almost certainly tell the truth and more than likely get the idea of exactly how serious the trouble that sort of behaviour can get you into is.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Sep 12, 2011, 10:08 PM
 
I'm with Shaddim on this one. You don't **** around with sexual assault. Even at age 7.

We don't have all the details, so it's hard to say, but some super serious repercussions need to be made against these kids.

Maybe there decent kids who got caught up in the moment, or there is more to the story... but either way, they need to fully understand it was wrong, one way or another.

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Sep 12, 2011, 10:54 PM
 
In a more civil time, the offenders' fathers would have whipped their sons until it hurt to sit for a week. That would have been the first and last time they did this.
     
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Sep 12, 2011, 11:10 PM
 
[qoute]Juvenile Justice
Juvenile offenders are governed by an Ordinance of February 2, 1945, on Juvenile Offenders which has been amended several times. The Ordinance sets forth the principles applicable in this area, in particular, the priority of the educational approach over punishment and the necessity of special courts and procedures. [86]
Criminal Responsibility
There is no specific legal age under which a juvenile cannot be prosecuted. The sole criterion is that of moral discernment, which may vary depending upon the maturity of the child and the nature of the offense committed. The Penal Code provides:[87]
Minors capable of discernment are criminally responsible for the crimes, délits and contraventions of which they have been found guilty, and are subject to measures of protection, assistance, supervision and education according to the conditions laid down by specific legislation.
This legislation also determines the educational measures that may be imposed upon minors aged between ten and eighteen years of age, as well as the penalties which may be imposed upon minors aged between thirteen and eighteen years old, taking into account the attenuation in responsibility resulting from their age.
Penalties
Penalties, however, are adapted to the age of the child. The Penal Code distinguishes five categories:[88]
Children without discernment: there is no criminal liability. The juvenile justice judge may, however, consider that the child is in danger or that the conditions of his education are gravely compromised and order an educational or assistance measure;
Children under ten with discernment: the child may be found criminally responsible before a juvenile justice court. He/she cannot receive either a criminal penalty or an educational sanction. Educational sanctions are a new tool introduced in 2002. They fall between educational measures and criminal sanctions. The judge may only order an educational, protection, or assistance measure.
Children from ten to thirteen: the judge may order the following educational sanctions: confiscation of the object used in the commission of the offense, ban on associating with the victim or the accomplices, ban on going to the place where the offense took place, compensation of the victim, and mandatory civic education. In the event of non-compliance with these sanctions, the judge may order placement in an institution. The sanctions will appear on the child’s criminal record.
Children from thirteen to sixteen: the criminal penalties incurred are half the ones stipulated for adult offenders. The juvenile justice court may combine criminal penalties with educational measures.
Children from sixteen to eighteen: they may benefit from the same penalty reduction than children from thirteen to sixteen receive, but in their case, this reduction is optional.[/qoute]
Children’s Rights: France – Law Library of Congress
     
torsoboy
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Sep 12, 2011, 11:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Lifting up skirts has ALWAYS been something that occurred on play grounds.
Yes. Usually just flicking it, to tease the girl, without the intention of actually seeing or doing anything.

Originally Posted by Athens View Post
So has trying to pull panties down.
No. This type of behavior has NEVER been tolerated and has never been something of a norm. Especially not with multiple other people holding her arms down while it is done.

Originally Posted by Athens View Post
I fear the day when all these stupid things become criminal acts which in some states I believe some of them already have.
I fear the day that other people have your same attitude toward this type sexually aggressive behavior. Luckily I don't think that day will come anytime soon.

I probably wouldn't call the cops or anything for this the first time it occurred, but I would definitely call a meeting with the principal and boys' parents.

Edit: I agree though that the girl's reaction to the incident will be largely determined by the parents' reactions. Let her know that it was very wrong for them to do it, but keep calm and collected while you are in your daughter's presence.
     
turtle777
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Sep 12, 2011, 11:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cold Warrior View Post
In a more civil time, the offenders' fathers would have whipped their sons until it hurt to sit for a week. That would have been the first and last time they did this.


-t
     
torsoboy
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Sep 12, 2011, 11:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² View Post
Children under ten with discernment: the child may be found criminally responsible before a juvenile justice court. He/she cannot receive either a criminal penalty or an educational sanction. Educational sanctions are a new tool introduced in 2002. They fall between educational measures and criminal sanctions. The judge may only order an educational, protection, or assistance measure.
Children under 10 can't be guilty of a criminal act in France. Very interesting.
     
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Sep 12, 2011, 11:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
No, it isn't. Climb back in your hole, under your bridge, or where ever you came from. Anyone with any sense knows that guys pantsing guys is one thing, but one boy restraining a girl while another boy pulls down her panties is another.
Word.

At the least I'd have a strong talk with the parents of the two boys involved, but I'd also get in the principal's face until something happened to the perps. Nothing funny or normal about the restraint part unless we want to train rapists at 8 years old.

The only tempering element here is what it will do to your daughter, what impact it has on her. If she sees it as no big deal, then maybe it is no big deal, it depends on her disposition. Does it make things worse for her, going forward, if you make a big deal of it? That's the only other consideration that's relevant-how does what you do impact her?

Next, sign her up for TKD classes (wait, it's savate there you'd want) and make sure she knows to fight back with intent at any provocation. That's the best advice you can give her. She needs to fight to injure anyone who attempts that again.
     
finboy
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Sep 12, 2011, 11:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cold Warrior View Post
In a more civil time, the offenders' fathers would have whipped their sons until it hurt to sit for a week. That would have been the first and last time they did this.
Yep. They'd be pulled out of school for a few days, at a minimum, because they wouldn't be in any shape to sit down anyway.
     
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Sep 12, 2011, 11:29 PM
 
I'd have a "conference" with school staff and the parents of the kids who did this. I'd also make it clear that I am an "unstable element" and might become volatile should my daughter ever tell me these kids even LOOKED at her again.
     
James L
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Sep 13, 2011, 12:06 AM
 
2 boys pinning a 7 year old girl while one tried to disrobe her is NOT "kids being stupid kids".... it is sexual assault. Don't make apologies for them. If somebody did that to my daughter there would be hell to pay in a very violent way.

Which brings me to my next point....

sign her up for TKD classes
If self defence is the goal TKD ain't the best art. Just saying.
     
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Sep 13, 2011, 12:17 AM
 
Krav Maga.
     
Athens
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Sep 13, 2011, 03:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by torsoboy View Post
I fear the day that other people have your same attitude toward this type sexually aggressive behavior. Luckily I don't think that day will come anytime soon.
You mean the entire F*ing world except the USofA. The US has always been screwed up about sexuality, sex and tolerance.
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Sep 13, 2011, 04:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
You mean the entire F*ing world except the USofA. The US has always been screwed up about sexuality, sex and tolerance.
Yes, because we should all be understanding and tolerant of a gang of preteen boys holding a girl down and pulling her panties off. After all, that's just normal sexuality right? Apparently it is possible for a person's mind to be so open that their brain actually falls out.
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Sep 13, 2011, 04:18 AM
 
This is what 7 and 8 year olds look like

Little kids fighting - YouTube

I think this fact is being forgotten and people are picturing mean looking older looking boys in the eyes as criminals vs what was probably just play, something misconstrued in a text description. If I was to describe this video as one larger boy 8 pinning a smaller boy 7 in a violent attack over powering and dominating, you would get a much different picture in your head vs the reality of it.
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Sep 13, 2011, 04:25 AM
 
ok another context

FOX | 11-Year-Old Stripped, Attacked - YouTube

3 girls stripe a boy, video tape it. Was it sexual or was it a stupid prank. It was a prank, a bad one, a very bad one in bad taste but was it group rape... NO It is some what disturbing because of the age difference, 14 year olds vs a 11 year old. At 14 they should know better. Not like 7 and 8 year olds, same age group.

And these are MUCH MUCH older teens now compare that to 7 and 8 years olds. I stand by my position that lawyers, criminal charges and law suites are OVERKILL.
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Sep 13, 2011, 04:39 AM
 
This is my last post on this topic because I feel like im talking to drones that have lost all sense of reality, people to afraid to be responsible adults and parents who rather off load parenting to layers and authorities. Blowing everything way out of proportion and attempting to fit adult context in to children.

Little Boy Gets Jumped by Four Girls - YouTube <- this video pisses me off not because of what the kids where doing but because people just watched.

4 young girls beating up a little boy. Criminal charges? No, lack or parental supervision Yup. If the person taping is a adult, they have serious issues for just watching. Stuff like this is for parents to deal with when its little kids. Not the legal system.

So back on topic with this post. Where was the supervision in the school to allow this girl to be hurt by other kids. Thank god its France and not the US. The school, the parents should be the ones dealing with it. No lawyers, no cops. Just parents and school officials. Personally I think suspensions do nothing. Detentions, loss of privileges are much more appropriate punishments along with parental punishment at home such as groundings and lost of privileges. At what point did parenting get off loaded to every one but the parents. When did adults stop being adults and make everything some one else problem. (This is directed at some of the responses posted, not the parent that started this thread)
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Sep 13, 2011, 04:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Yes, because we should all be understanding and tolerant of a gang of preteen boys holding a girl down and pulling her panties off. After all, that's just normal sexuality right?
It's adults that read a sexual context into it, not the children. It's a brawl/prank between three children and should be handled as such.
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Sep 13, 2011, 04:47 AM
 
Thank you.
     
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Sep 13, 2011, 05:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
I'm with Shaddim on this one. You don't **** around with sexual assault. Even at age 7.
At age 7 you don't ******* know what sexual assault means! You're not even able to have sex at the age of 7!
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mattyb  (op)
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Sep 13, 2011, 05:04 AM
 
Meeting with the head of the school tonight. According to a colleague who has kids in the school (older than my daughter), one of the boys has been known to cause problems.

Good link brassplayersrock², I shall be studying that tonight.

I couldn't stop thinking of the Bulger case while trying to sleep.

And yes, I'll be teaching some basic self defence, although I understand that she put up a good struggle. She seemed OK this morning, not afraid to go to school and even commented about me seeing the head teacher.
     
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Sep 13, 2011, 05:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cold Warrior View Post
In a more civil time, the offenders' fathers would have whipped their sons until it hurt to sit for a week. That would have been the first and last time they did this.
Nothing like showing kids that violence is a legitimate option for teaching people a lesson.

They'll never dare try that out again, for sure. Unless they're in a position of power and the lesson is really, really worth teaching.

Because we all know that eight-year-olds pinning down a girl and doing demeaning things to her is all about sexuality, and not about power and violence.

Beat em, I say! That'll learn 'em!
     
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Sep 13, 2011, 05:13 AM
 
Sadly I agree with beating kids as a resort when needed. Parents have been disarmed over the last 20 years and can hardly punish kids any more. Its illegal to lock them in a room. Its illegal to hit them in anyway. Its illegal to prevent them from doing whatever they want really. Smart kids know this.
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Spheric Harlot
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Sep 13, 2011, 05:16 AM
 
If you have to beat your kids, you've already lost.

Smart kids always knew that, too.

You're just breeding violence into their dysfunction.
     
badidea
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Sep 13, 2011, 05:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by torsoboy View Post
Children under 10 can't be guilty of a criminal act in France. Very interesting.
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Athens
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Sep 13, 2011, 05:26 AM
 
Age 12 in Canada.

Back to the beating of kids, in the 1950's when teachers could smack misbehaving kids with a ruler on the risk, how long do you think it took for them to get it and not misbehave. Same goes for spankings. When you look today compared to 40 years ago when spankings, slapping hands, locking in rooms where accepted how many kids misbehaved. Today 12 and 13 year olds are telling parents to F off and doing what they want. Parents cant do anything. No respect to any one. And we are now putting kids in front of courts and judges and using the criminal system to deal with them. societies where this is still allowed, like China, India, no problems with kids. I dont know what the general attitude in Europe is I just know in Canada you cant punish kids and in the US kids get punishment from the system not the parents.
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Spheric Harlot
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Sep 13, 2011, 05:31 AM
 
Meh. Nm.
     
hyteckit
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Sep 13, 2011, 05:33 AM
 
Being the new girl, I guess she was being teased by the boys. I don't believe it was sexual.

Kinda like Hazing in high school or college.

I think a lawsuit would be dumb.

Trying putting yourself in the shoe of the father of one of the boys.
What would you do to the boys if your boy was the one who did that to a little girl? Belt and spanking?

I say talk to the school principal and a school employee who witness the incident. Get the boys' parents involved. Either have the boys' parents or the school principal carry out the punishment.

If I had my way, it would be public caning. Yes, even for 8 year olds.

Next best thing is public shaming. Make them understand how your daughter felt. Have the boys apologize to your girl in front of the school. If that's too much unwanted attention for your daughter that you want to avoid, try something else. Maybe make the boys stay after school and clean the restrooms or desk. Like removing gum from the desk. Just make sure it's a good lesson for the boys, so the boys understand what they did is wrong and won't do it again.


Let the school and parents deal with it. No need to get lawyers involved.
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OreoCookie
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Sep 13, 2011, 05:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
No respect to any one. And we are now putting kids in front of courts and judges and using the criminal system to deal with them. societies where this is still allowed, like China, India, no problems with kids.
Back in the good ol' days … what a bunch of non-sense: my parents were both punished in school and at home (especially my mom and her siblings) and they weren't better behaved than my generation.
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subego
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Sep 13, 2011, 06:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
We didn't pull that kind of thing when I was that age, because we knew the beating we'd get for trying (and the second beating we'd get at home for getting strapped at school).
Oddly enough, we didn't pull that thing when I was that age because we weren't ****ing animals. Beatings never entered into it.
     
Laminar
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Sep 13, 2011, 08:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
This is my last post on this topic because I feel like im talking to drones that have lost all sense of reality,
Wow, that almost lasted an entire half an hour!
     
Eug
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Sep 13, 2011, 09:14 AM
 
If it was my kid who did that, I'd be totally horrified. I would give my kid a stern scolding, and I would not dispute a week-long suspension.

Sure, an 8 year-old doing this is not the same thing as a 16 year-old doing this, but that's why it's a week-long suspension and not putting the kid in jail.
( Last edited by Eug; Sep 13, 2011 at 09:30 AM. )
     
 
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