[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Stradlater:
Eh? If anything, Socialism could be compared to Mac-users. We live in a Windows-controlled world for the most part, as Socialists have lived in a Capitalist-controlled world.

What a bizarro comparison.

In a socialist world, Apple wouldn't exist.

You'd just have MS.

In the US we have a form of Socialism. It's called the Welfare system.

You do what the Government tells you to, and obey their rules, they give you money.

This puts way too much leverage on the government.

[ambush]

Originally posted by Phanguye:
make sure you get a degree in economics to go along with that degree in political science... what the world doesnt need is another politition(sp.) that doesnt know how money works... we have enough of those already

and even if you dont become the president of the world, at least you will learn how to make a rational arguement, unlike the abortion that you used to start this thread

You seem to have problems with people with ambitions. Oh well.

[itistoday]

I don't really understand ambush, after my posts and other peoples, what exactly do you want? What is your "solution" to this "problem"?

[ambush]

Originally posted by itistoday:
I don't really understand ambush, after my posts and other peoples, what exactly do you want? What is your "solution" to this "problem"?

I don't know, but I'm comitted to finding one.

I'm just reading Engels' Das Capital Synopsis now

Basically, wealth could be shared more. Right now there are some really huge differences between the poor and the mecca rich.

And maybe someone could invent a non-profit bank? We have this in Qu�bec, but I'm not sure there's one in the US?

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
What a bizarro comparison.

In a socialist world, Apple wouldn't exist.

You'd just have MS.

In the US we have a form of Socialism. It's called the Welfare system.

You do what the Government tells you to, and obey their rules, they give you money.

This puts way too much leverage on the government.

Bizarro? In a socialist world, MS probably wouldn't exist, either. I wasn't speaking in terms of that, though...it was more of an analogy. Socialism has only ever existed within a Capitalist world system, and Mac-users exist in a predominantly Windows environment, as well. Not so bizarro an analogy if you ask me.

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by ambush:
I don't know, but I'm comitted to finding one.

I'm just reading Engels' Das Capital Synopsis now

Basically, wealth could be shared more. Right now there are some really huge differences between the poor and the mecca rich.

And maybe someone could invent a non-profit bank? We have this in Qu�bec, but I'm not sure there's one in the US?

Canada also has free health care to an extent, I believe. It would be nice if the US picked up some things.

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by itistoday:
I don't really understand ambush, after my posts and other peoples, what exactly do you want? What is your "solution" to this "problem"?

Making people more aware is one step in the direction. Honestly, I don't think anyone can predict what will happen and of course not when it will happen. Capitalism's flaws may work out and extend its life, or revolution or terrorism may bring forth a better or worse world. Ideas will usually be ideals, I am interested if anyone can think of a better system than Capitalism, though. Maybe a book, no one on this board could theorize a better system on a small posting space such as this.

[turboSPE]

Originally posted by ambush:
Oil is running low, mainly because of the big pockets capitalists of this world. (We could sooooo switch to Hydrogen, we can, except the Oil lobby is too powerful)

*snip*

First of all, Hydrogen power is not a feasible option at this point. Splitting water molecules requires vast amounts of input energy, to the extent that it's not an economical alternative to fossil fuels.

Second, the great thing about capitalism is that anybody can become one of the upper "class" simply by getting motivated and working hard. I don't understand what you are complaining about.

turboSPE

[Nicko]

Vote me supreme leader and I'll make the world egalitarian... all I ask is 2% off the top of everything

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by turboSPE:
Second, the great thing about capitalism is that anybody can become one of the upper "class" simply by getting motivated and working hard. I don't understand what you are complaining about.

Theoretically, yes. However, the vast majority of even the motivated/hard-working will NOT become one of the upper class. "Simply"? I think not. Maybe this is one of the reasons he's complaining?

[neon_duke]

Originally posted by ambush:
It's pretty successful in Sweden, if you ask me.

I won't ask you, because you obviously don't have the foggiest freaking ghost of a clue what you're talking about. I'm at work earning my living right at the moment, but I have soemthing you need to read, written by someone who lived this "pretty successful" Swedish utopia you think you know about.

There's nothing wrong with being 16, idealistic, and full of fire. The problem is that you need to understand and know what you're talking about before you decide that you have cornered the market on Truth.

Let me leave you with this question: if Capitalism is destroying the environment through man's greed, why are far and away the worst ecologoical disasters of the last hundred years all located in Soviet Russia and mainland China? Answer that, and I'll dig up the Sweden link for you.

[edit] Here's the link to information about Sweden. This was written by a Swede, who lived in Sweden, during this so called utopian Socialist period. Give it a read and expand your mind a little. It's not that long to wade through.

[ambush]

Originally posted by neon_duke:
I won't ask you, because you obviously don't have the foggiest freaking ghost of a clue what you're talking about. I'm at work earning my living right at the moment, but I have soemthing you need to read, written by someone who lived this "pretty successful" Swedish utopia you think you know about.

There's nothing wrong with being 16, idealistic, and full of fire. The problem is that you need to understand and know what you're talking about before you decide that you have cornered the market on Truth.

Let me leave you with this question: if Capitalism is destroying the environment through man's greed, why are far and away the worst ecologoical disasters of the last hundred years all located in Soviet Russia and mainland China? Answer that, and I'll dig up the Sweden link for you.

[edit] Here's the link to information about Sweden. This was written by a Swede, who lived in Sweden, during this so called utopian Socialist period. Give it a read and expand your mind a little. It's not that long to wade through.

Sorry, I was mislead by someone called Rikard Nielsson who's living in Sweden thanks for the link

[NYCFarmboy]

For those of you who like socialism please swim to Cuba.



funny how folks always try to escape socialism and try to swim to the united states but you don't see the socialist here trying to leave.

I remember all those Hollywood actors said they would leave the country if Bush was President. They are still here..I wish they'd follow through on their promises!

[ambush]

Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
For those of you who like socialism please swim to Cuba.



funny how folks always try to escape socialism and try to swim to the united states but you don't see the socialist here trying to leave.

If you knew Cuba's history maybe you'd understand.

[neon_duke]

Originally posted by ambush:
Sorry, I was mislead by someone called Rikard Nielsson who's living in Sweden thanks for the link

Now, turnabout is fair play and I'll take your words at face value. Do you have a link or can you PM me the information you have from Rikard Nielsson? I'm always interested in expanding my mind a little, too. I try to know what I'm talking about as much as possible.

[memento]

Interesting thread. itistoday and milennium certainely have the answers I agree most with. I won't repeat what's already been said. ambush - unfortunately you seem to have the personality of a member of Greenpeace. A lot of fire, but severely biased (and/or misinformed) and you write with bias. Just look at the thread title and some of your rants (hydrogen fuel, Bush, capitalism, pollution). You don't appear to be open to discussion/criticism at all. But, convert some of that fire into unbiased knowledge with fairly developed opinions and you can really go places in your life.

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
For those of you who like socialism please swim to Cuba.



funny how folks always try to escape socialism and try to swim to the united states but you don't see the socialist here trying to leave.

I remember all those Hollywood actors said they would leave the country if Bush was President. They are still here..I wish they'd follow through on their promises!

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by ambush:
I don't know, but I'm comitted to finding one.

Basically, wealth could be shared more.

Ok... I have a suggestion with which you can start:

Seeing as how I'm possibly just about to purchase BurnOut Menu, I'd like you to PM me your bank statement. If it's got less than mine in it, I'll buy the program. If it's got more than mine in it, I'll be expecting a free registration key.

It's not World-changing, for sure, but it's a start away from the evil capitalist system we have going on at the moment.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by ambush:
If you think that pollution is a Myth, you have a serious problem, lay off the crack. It's not good for your brain. I had several courses on world pollution and I had a research to do on Acid Rains, so I know what I'm talking about.

Acid rains killed thousands of lakes here.

Companies like GAP, Nike, Ikea, etc etc etc do it. It's a well-known fact. Hello.

Do what? Pollute? Cause acid rain?

Originally posted by ambush:
Apple? Ever seen the Designed in Cali, built in Taiwan thing? They prolly exploit people too. But then again, who doesn't, these days?

It's hard to convince someone who is making more money than they've ever made to build a shoe, or a computer, or whatever that they are being exploited.

Originally posted by ambush:
Yes the USA are good, economically. But with Bush at the commands, it's going down.

I find it funny � you think that Bush lets the corporations get away with everything and they rape the environment to gain profits � yet you think the economy is going down. Don't you see a conflict in that statement?

Originally posted by ambush:
The new threat, international terrorism against the US is very present, and is mainly AGAINST capitalism. People are sick and tired of being exploited. Now I'm not saying that crashing a plane into a building that represents capitalism is the right way to say "hey capitalism sucks".

Yeah, because Al Queda knows the solution to the world's problems. Terrorism isn't a political statement. It's a child throwing a temper tantrum. They aren't doing it because they have a solution. They are doing it because they want attention.

Originally posted by ambush:
Everyone has a chance to become rich, yeah. But most people don't. Some people are heavily disadvantaged at birth. What's the chance that a lil' kid in the Bronx, NYC actually becomes rich? Something near 0.

I don't know, ask Spike Lee. Although he's from Brooklyn, I think. So maybe you should ask KRS-1.

Originally posted by ambush:
Now, in this world, anyone rich enough to get a Nuke can surely destroy a good part of Earth. THAT'S another example of self-destruction.

That's interesting. I think it takes more than money to acquire a nuke. And it takes more than any old rich person to set one off.

But then again, you already made a statement about the lack of WMDs in Iraq in this thread, so OBVIOUSLY, a nuke isn't THAT easy to obtain. Right?

[neon_duke]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
I'd like you to PM me your bank statement. If it's got less than mine in it, I'll buy the program. If it's got more than mine in it, I'll be expecting a free registration key.

An excellent opportunity to quit talking and start chalking, son.

Before you dismiss Capitalism out of hand as evil white guys leeching off the blood of oppressed workers, answer this question (I'm still waiting to hear about the environmental issue, BTW):

How is it worse to offer someone a job, even at a low wage, than it is to not offer them a job at all?

I'll bet my next paycheck against yours that you can make a better living in fewer hours sewing sneakers for Nike than you can as a subsistance farmer in your average "sweatshop" country.

If you'd like a further history lesson, I suggest you research the standard of living in, say, Thailand over the last 30 years - then compare that to what Socialism/Communism did to Cambodia in that same time frame.

"Political power comes from the barrel of a gun." - Mao Tse-Dong

You owe it to yourself to study, research, read everything you can get your hands on, and above all, think rationally about what you discover. Put your energy to good use and think for yourself. Don't decide rich white guys must be the problem just because that's what you have handy to rebel against.

[Sven G]

Originally posted by Stradlater:
Making people more aware is one step in the direction. Honestly, I don't think anyone can predict what will happen and of course not when it will happen. Capitalism's flaws may work out and extend its life, or revolution or terrorism may bring forth a better or worse world. Ideas will usually be ideals, I am interested if anyone can think of a better system than Capitalism, though. Maybe a book, no one on this board could theorize a better system on a small posting space such as this.

To begin with, as you are looking for viable systems other than capitalism, it might be interesting to read Nonviolent Alternatives to Capitalism, a quite interesting article on some of the possible better ways of governing ourselves and the world.

Personally, of course, I'm rather interested in anarchism and its derivatives: on this front, besides Libertarian Socialism (or Libertarian Communism, as it's also called), there are - among others - Anarcho-Syndicalism, Social Ecology and Libertarian Municipalism, ParEcon (Participatory Economics), and Mutualism.

An excellent source for books and articles (many of them online) on the various libertarian thinkers is here, among others.

Of course, there are other forms of more or less possible alternative societies and related thinkers: maybe someone could add some more interesting links with their points of view...

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by Sven G:
(links to information)

Thanks for the links, sounds like good reads . I'm interested in getting to know more about Anarchism; I think that people are often even more ignorant of its intentions than of Socialism/Communism.

[itistoday]

Originally posted by Stradlater:
Thanks for the links, sounds like good reads . I'm interested in getting to know more about Anarchism; I think that people are often even more ignorant of its intentions than of Socialism/Communism.

Anarchism is quite simple really...

[neon_duke]

Anybody here happen to play NationStates? Quite an interesting little game, though it has a decidedly Socialist slant. But, hey, why shouldn't it - it's free, after all.

I'm the Mayor of the Free Land of Palmertania. Give it a try.

[Nicko]

Originally posted by itistoday:
Anarchism is quite simple really...

Yea just run around randomly and break things, easy

[ambush]

Do what? Pollute? Cause acid rain?
I'm just too lazy to mark everything up in my reply

I was talking about acid rains and pollution, and then about GAP, Nike, etc exploiting children.

But you're right, they prolly pollute too.

It's hard to convince someone who is making more money than they've ever made to build a shoe, or a computer, or whatever that they are being exploited.

Ya well, considering they can afford to give at least 100x more, yeah I find it horrible.

I find it funny � you think that Bush lets the corporations get away with everything and they rape the environment to gain profits � yet you think the economy is going down. Don't you see a conflict in that statement?

No. Why? It is going down [a bit] but it's still capitalism you lost me..

Yeah, because Al Queda knows the solution to the world's problems.

Not really.

Terrorism isn't a political statement. It's a child throwing a temper tantrum. They aren't doing it because they have a solution. They are doing it because they want attention.

Your point?

I don't know, ask Spike Lee. Although he's from Brooklyn, I think. So maybe you should ask KRS-1.

5 / a few millions. That's a good ratio.

That's interesting. I think it takes more than money to acquire a nuke. And it takes more than any old rich person to set one off.

But then again, you already made a statement about the lack of WMDs in Iraq in this thread, so OBVIOUSLY, a nuke isn't THAT easy to obtain. Right?

No it's not. Your point?

[ambush]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
Ok... I have a suggestion with which you can start:

Seeing as how I'm possibly just about to purchase BurnOut Menu, I'd like you to PM me your bank statement. If it's got less than mine in it, I'll buy the program. If it's got more than mine in it, I'll be expecting a free registration key.

It's not World-changing, for sure, but it's a start away from the evil capitalist system we have going on at the moment.

You can afford 5.95

email me at [email protected] I'll see

[ambush]

But yeah - a non-profit bank would be cool, no?

[typoon]

Originally posted by ambush:
But yeah - a non-profit bank would be cool, no?

How would they pay there employees if they didn't make a profit?

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by Nicko:
Yea just run around randomly and break things, easy

see what i mean?

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by ambush:
But yeah - a non-profit bank would be cool, no?

Don't they have those? Isn't that a credit union?

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by typoon:
How would they pay there employees if they didn't make a profit?

In Ambush's defence, salaries aren't part of profit.

It's already been invented though (and actually works quite well):

http://www.britannia.co.uk/

[neon_duke]

Originally posted by ambush:
I see in P2P networks a new form of ... communism... well not totally, but people share wealth. So it's cool.

Somehow I missed this charming little statement before. This is true, but not at all in the way you think it's true. Leaving aside musicians who are freely distributing music they've created themselves, that means probably 90% of the wealth "shared" by P2P is actually stolen from the rightful owners. The people who think it is justified to "redistribute" that wealth just because the creators are rich are just like communists: they believe that their wants are primary over the rights of the people who create something to want. Say what you will about Metallica, fundamentally they are the party who is wronged here, because the new P2P Communists feel they have a right to sieze Metallica's work and redistribute it as they see fit.

It's a perfect parallel to the Communists and Socialists, who believe that they have a right to seize the wealth of people who create it and give it to those who don't.

Who looks like a parasite now? The people who actually create wealth, or the people who steal it?

[clod]

Originally posted by turboSPE:
the great thing about capitalism is that anybody can become one of the upper "class" simply by getting motivated and working hard.

That's what makes capitalism so good. If you want to be rich you can if you work hard enough. I've seen durt poor immigrants from Pakistan or anywhere else become very successful just because they work hard to accomplish their dreams.

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by clod:
That's what makes capitalism so good. If you want to be rich you can if you work hard enough. I've seen durt poor immigrants from Pakistan or anywhere else become very successful just because they work hard to accomplish their dreams.

Eh, and some people are rich with no effort and work at all, and some people try hard and word hard to end their life in poverty and disappointment. Capitalism does not ensure you'll do well if you try hard.

[Zimphire]

*looks at poll*

at capitalism is still winning YAY.

[neon_duke]

Originally posted by Stradlater:
Eh, and some people are rich with no effort and work at all, and some people try hard and word hard to end their life in poverty and disappointment. Capitalism does not ensure you'll do well if you try hard.

That's true. Why should it? Nothing even ensures that I will be born. Why should anything be required to ensure that I remain alive? My simple existence is a large enough gift for me... I don't need to be handed the means to maintain it, and I wouldn't begin to think I should be. I couldn't imagine being that ungrateful to whatever cosmic forces came together to make me a human being.

Every individual on this planet is dealt a hand at birth. It's up to them to play it to the best of their ability. Sometimes no matter how carefully you play, the right cards just don't come around. Sometimes you get a great hand but you don't know what to do with it. That's a little thing called life. Nobody gets to choose being born a rich American instead of a poor Sri Lankan.

Absolutely nothing entitles me to be protected from the facts and necessities of my own life. If I wish to retain that life, it's entirely up to me to deal with those circumstances and meet those needs the best I can. I have no claim - and no desire to claim - another human being's wealth as mine, without earning it.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Stradlater:
Eh, and some people are rich with no effort and work at all, and some people try hard and word hard to end their life in poverty and disappointment. Capitalism does not ensure you'll do well if you try hard.

And thus is life.

I would be more concerned with people obsessed with living high on the hog.

"Money can't buy you love"

I hear "It's not fair" a lot from a little gal I know.

I expect by the time you are 20, you realize life isn't fair.

This isn't a ideal world.

Once you come to grips with that, life gets a tad easier to handle.

[vmarks]

Originally posted by neon_duke:

Every individual on this planet is dealt a hand at birth. It's up to them to play it to the best of their ability. Sometimes no matter how carefully you play, the right cards just don't come around. Sometimes you get a great hand but you don't know what to do with it. That's a little thing called life. Nobody gets to choose being born a rich American instead of a poor Sri Lankan.

Absolutely nothing entitles me to be protected from the facts and necessities of my own life. If I wish to retain that life, it's entirely up to me to deal with those circumstances and meet those needs the best I can. I have no claim - and no desire to claim - another human being's wealth as mine, without earning it.

Life is not a game of chance, luck, or lottery.

If you really do work hard, you will improve your circumstances. You may not become the richest man on earth, but then again, you might. Most importantly, no one owes you something for nothing.

[neon_duke]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
And thus is life.

This isn't a ideal world.

Even if it is an ideal world, nothing guarantees your success in it.

In Capitalism, nothing guarantees your advancement. But nothing prohibits it either. You're free to make the most you can out of what you've got to work with. The system is there to help you by providing opportunities to do that - not all opportunities are equal, true, but again, that's life. Nothing legally or physically restricts your access to those opportunities except luck.

In Collectivism, on the other hand, the system itself prohibits your advancement - anyone who can achieve is automatically burdened with an ever increasing share of those who cannot achieve. Therefore the difference between "rich" and "poor" is settled by grinding off the high spots until no achievement is desirable or even possible.

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
And thus is life.

I would be more concerned with people obsessed with living high on the hog.

"Money can't buy you love"

I hear "It's not fair" a lot from a little gal I know.

I expect by the time you are 20, you realize life isn't fair.

This isn't a ideal world.

Once you come to grips with that, life gets a tad easier to handle.

I wasn't bitching and moaning about life being unfair, I was just getting across that Capitalism is NOT simple for people to make it to the upper class as it's been implied several times in this thread. "By the time [I'm] 20?" How old do you think I am? Do you even read what I type? Your reply doesn't really make sense to me, seeing as I am not the one thoroughly complaining here.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by neon_duke:
Even if it is an ideal world, nothing guarantees your success in it.

In Capitalism, nothing guarantees your advancement. But nothing prohibits it either. You're free to make the most you can out of what you've got to work with. The system is there to help you by providing opportunities to do that - not all opportunities are equal, true, but again, that's life. Nothing legally or physically restricts your access to those opportunities except luck.

In Collectivism, on the other hand, the system itself prohibits your advancement - anyone who can achieve is automatically burdened with an ever increasing share of those who cannot achieve. Therefore the difference between "rich" and "poor" is settled by grinding off the high spots until no achievement is desirable or even possible.

Professor neon duke!

[wolfen]

Poor Criminal --> Maybe he steals a car, finances his habit, or assaults someone for a few hundred bucks.

Rich Criminal --> Maybe he wipes out the pensions of a few thousand people, dumps toxic waste into the city water supply, or compromises the political process.

Unfortunately, no system has found a way to prevent both criminality and wealth at the same time. Unfortunately, capitalism is the fastest way to convert the first into the second. The historians call it "progress."


wolfen

[turboSPE]

Originally posted by Stradlater:
Theoretically, yes. However, the vast majority of even the motivated/hard-working will NOT become one of the upper class. "Simply"? I think not. Maybe this is one of the reasons he's complaining?

Perhaps. My father did that over the years (grew up poor, worked to provide a better life for his kids), and I plan to do the same.

turboSPE

[turboSPE]

Originally posted by ambush:
But yeah - a non-profit bank would be cool, no?

I thought that's what credit unions were?

turboSPE

[turboSPE]

Originally posted by Stradlater:
Eh, and some people are rich with no effort and work at all, and some people try hard and word hard to end their life in poverty and disappointment. Capitalism does not ensure you'll do well if you try hard.

I totally disagree. If you start at nothing, no job, money, etc. and go to work, you will be "richer" than you were before. As you work, you gain experience and get promoted, thus making you even better off...and on down the line. Some people don't need to work per se (due to inheritance checks or whatever), but that is the "accident of birth" and I'd rather have a rich spoiled kid spend all his money (for the economic trickle-down effect) than save it. But that's just MHO

turboSPE

[turboSPE]

Originally posted by neon_duke:
Even if it is an ideal world, nothing guarantees your success in it.

In Capitalism, nothing guarantees your advancement. But nothing prohibits it either. You're free to make the most you can out of what you've got to work with. The system is there to help you by providing opportunities to do that - not all opportunities are equal, true, but again, that's life. Nothing legally or physically restricts your access to those opportunities except luck.

In Collectivism, on the other hand, the system itself prohibits your advancement - anyone who can achieve is automatically burdened with an ever increasing share of those who cannot achieve. Therefore the difference between "rich" and "poor" is settled by grinding off the high spots until no achievement is desirable or even possible.

Exactly what I've been trying to say. Well done Neon.

turboSPE

People are more willing to help the unfortunate now than ever before? Do you think 100 years ago there was as much charity and distribution of wealth as there is now? Legal and social rights are becoming more equal as time goes by.

However, good for you for voicing your opinion. The solution is obviously somewhere between left and right, and we are slowly moving toward the middle.

[nayr x]

I think a big problem is that nobody (or very few) stop to think in terms outside the limits of our human perception. The best way to see an issue in context is to step past familiarity and look at ourselves from the vantage point of a non-biased bystander. When you look down at this planet from a mile up, all you see is the scab-like scarring of the surface of this sphere by a microscopic species of endlessly multiplying, bipedal mammals. The root of this 'utopia' issue lies within our inability to change our own nature, and the apathy we feel when it's "not our problem". I feel that at this point the governments we choose to implement are negligible, as we have already shown our true colors as an intrinsically motivated, pathological illness devouring this planet. Human misery and suffering, inequality and our current status of being mired neck-deep in our own creation are the residual effect of a human history punctuated by selfishness, ambition, and indifference. My solution is to sit back, smile at those who miss the beauty around them, admit what we are, and go down with the ship. At least nobody can ever say you weren't at least a little* part of this great big wondrous universe.



*a very, very, very, very, very, very, very.....very little part.

[sniffer]

Originally posted by itistoday:
Sweden is a constitutional monarchy dude. Not socialist. And it's economy is mixed-capitalism.

The government there is a social democratic party as far as I know.