[TheMosco]

It seems like everyone here has got 10.2 installed and i am guessing that most you are not ADC members. I am not an ADC member but i do have Jag installed but i know i am going to buy Jaguar. I am little worried that if this type of pirating continues that we will see some sort of serial number thing and i know we would all hate that and complain about it. I know that some of you think that mac os 10.2 is too expensive but you can find it for under 100 dollars if you look and if you are a student, it is pretty cheap. Some of you complain that 10.2 should have been 10.0 and that we have been beta testers for the last 18 months. You can say that about any product ever released. It just doesn't hold up. Plus you got 10.1 for free. Doesn't anyone else think we shoudl help support Apple? If they keep losing money, they might have to start charing more for products.

[gorickey]

The pirating will never end...if Apple decides to go with a Serial Number based OS, it will not stop pirating either...that is the sad, but honest truth.

[DannyVTim]

I honestly think that many here will also buy the product. Many won't but some will. I got 6C48 legally but 6C115 illegally, I still ordered a copy from apple. I'm also not useing 10.2 full time until I'm sure it works with all my software. It's nice to be able to get ahead on testing apps.

[solitere]

Pirating is quite minimal of OS X in the long run. Theres probably several thousands pirated from carracho and hotline but no more.

I think Most people will get OS X 10.2 legally either with a new machine or buying the retail version.

And serialprotection are no warranty that people will not pirate OS X.

OS X Server is a good example!!!

[Richard5mith]

I ordered 10.2 the day the release date was announced. But I couldn't wait any longer so downloaded it a couple of days ago.

I'll still hapilly pay for my copy when it turns up on the 24th.

[mitchell_pgh]

I would have to say that 10.2 is the most pirated OS I have ever heard of on the Mac platform. With that said, I think many of the users will buy it. It's an ease of mind kind of thing...

I think you hear more about 10.2 because you are in this forum... remember that we are the top 5% of the Mac community... we try things nobody else would think of...

I know where I'm going to be on the 24th, do you?

[dfiler]

Originally posted by TheMosco:
...
I am little worried that if this type of pirating continues that we will see some sort of serial number thing and i know we would all hate that and complain about it.
...

Here's a horse that could still use a bit more beating

Many of us who pirated 10.2 already have a copy on pre-order with Apple. Pre-release pirates and legal purchasers aren't disjoint sets.

[CharlesS]

This is why Apple is primarily a hardware company and doesn't license its OS anymore - you can't pirate hardware.

[moulish]

i have bought every OS since system8, but i won't pay for 10.2

the reason? they gave me an email adress saying it was free. now i can't live without it, everyone i know (friends, family, clients, mailing list, etc, etc) has it. if they would have told me they would charge, i would have look somewhere else. but no, i'm force to buy it now.

they deceided to do their business the microsoft way, okay, that's how i'll deal with them too.

it's simple, you screw me, i screw you.

so, to answer your question, if they finally deceide to gave .mac email only to their old user, i'll buy it. if not, i'll make a copy from the office. they have my money either way.

[alphamatrix]

Its true me copy of 6C115 was obtained illegally but when 10.2 ships I plan on buying a copy. I paid for the Public Beta, I paid of 10.0 and i paid for 10.1 and I will pay for 10.2. Some for you people need to stop your whining. If you dont think its worth your money then fine. But I dont what to here all of this crap about how your not gonna buy 10.2 cause you have to pay for .Mac or the price is too high. If you cant afford it dont buy it, but if you dont I dont want to listen to you crying about it, k?

[pliny]

what's worse than the pirating i think is the way so many posters here post information about where to pirate--they name names. that information whether true or not shouldn't be part of posts.

[piracy]

Originally posted by moulish:
<bunch of **** removed>

Shut the f*ck up, you whiny cheapskate.

[alphamatrix]

Originally posted by pliny:
what's worse than the pirating i think is the way so many posters here post information about where to pirate--they name names. that should be stopped right away.

I don't see why that matters, how immature and simple minded do you think the average MacNN reader is? I think that they should be able to make a decision as to whether or not they are going to pirate software with or without a direct link or just saying to use a certain file sharing app. It shouldn't matter if there were even a direct link to 6C115 because its not like anyone is forcing you or any one else to go download it, if they want to they should be able to.

[Edit: Spelling]

[pliny]

Originally posted by alphamatrix:

I don't see why that matters, how immature and simple minded do you think the average MacNN reader is?

I don''t know but I have my suspicions.

I think that they should be able to make a decision as to weather or not they are going to pirate software with or without a direct link or just saying to use a certain file sharing app.

weather=whether

It shouldn't matter if there where even a direct link to 6C115 because its not like anyone is forcing you or any one else to go download it, if they want to they should be able to.

gee, hock it on the corner or something.

where=were

[Group51]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
I know where I'm going to be on the 24th, do you?

I'll be installing 10.2 for the first time, never having seen it except through my screen.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally posted by Group51:


I'll be installing 10.2 for the first time, never having seen it except through my screen.

Same here...


I'm just SO SICK of people bitching about broken app. this or borken app. that when it isn't even out yet!!! It has filled this forum...

iChat sucks... 10.2 sux... .mac is $$$'s... just way too much bitching...

[gorgonzola]

Originally posted by TheMosco:
It seems like everyone here has got 10.2 installed and i am guessing that most you are not ADC members. I am not an ADC member but i do have Jag installed but i know i am going to buy Jaguar. I am little worried that if this type of pirating continues that we will see some sort of serial number thing and i know we would all hate that and complain about it. I know that some of you think that mac os 10.2 is too expensive but you can find it for under 100 dollars if you look and if you are a student, it is pretty cheap. Some of you complain that 10.2 should have been 10.0 and that we have been beta testers for the last 18 months. You can say that about any product ever released. It just doesn't hold up. Plus you got 10.1 for free. Doesn't anyone else think we shoudl help support Apple? If they keep losing money, they might have to start charing more for products.

If you go back in the archives, you'll see just as much discussion of prerelease 10.1 builds as well as a lot of discussion on the 10.1 final before it was released. I think you're getting this impression (not wrongly) because this time, the discussion has been coupled with a lot of (IMHO, rather groundless) whining about the pricing.

In any case, a friend of mine is ADC, so I happen to be using 10.2 already, and I got it for free. Did I also purchase it? Yes, and I don't consider my money wasted at all. Do I think having upgrade pricing would have been the reasonable way to go? Yes, but that doesn't mean 10.2 isn't worth it, or that I'm not going to buy it.

And to be frank, if some people don't feel 10.2 is a compelling upgrade, then don't upgrade. The chances that a significant number of applications (if any noticeable number at all) will run only on 10.2 are quite low, and it's not going to be a big deal for anyone if you put off upgrading until later. It's a complete non-issue.

My 2�.

[Nebrie]

Serial numbers hardly stop piracy it seems, but if we see a serial number thing from Apple any time soon, my guess is that they'll issue a custom serial checked by an Apple database for developer previews. That way they can link the serial to the developer and go after them if they leak it.

[Kristoff]

Originally posted by Richard5mith:
I ordered 10.2 the day the release date was announced. But I couldn't wait any longer so downloaded it a couple of days ago.

I'll still hapilly pay for my copy when it turns up on the 24th.

Technically, I don't think that's pirating.

That falls under fair use.

Now, if you start re-distributing...then you are a pirate.

[malvolio]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
I'm just SO SICK of people bitching about broken app. this or borken app. that when it isn't even out yet!!!

Well, the retail version has been available in certain locations for a couple of weeks now. So many of the people who are b*tching about broken apps know that they won't be fixed on the 24th.

[Kristoff]

You want us to pretend it's all good?

Rejoice at the buggy 6C115 you'll pay $129 for ?

I like Jag, but it's still got bugs galore.

And, it feels awkward...see the netinfo, tcsh, Pismo (Calculating...), and Finder FTP threads.

It's got bugs. It's fast, but buggy.

I am as bummed as I was when I found out 4K78 was GM.

Looks like I'll be pounding Software Update in a few weeks praying for fixes.

[Tobie]

I'm installing a dodgy copy of 10.2 and I plan to buy the retail pack as soon as I can.

Trying not to shed a tear, not only am I thoroughly enjoying the prospect of a sleek, improving and liberating operating system, put I'm savouring the spectacle and the hype that attends the release of the damn thing. Its the greatest show of its kind, and I extend a warm hand to all its attending details, including the kind gentleman who provided me with my dodgy copy...

And I want the packaging damn it, I'ld give apple 100 english pounds for tha alone!

peace in the east.

[Jan Van Boghout]

I must admit the copy I'm running right now is not legally obtained, but I ordered my 10.2 box as soon as it was available for preorder.

And if you don't like the bugs that are in it, you will still have a cool fur box

[foobars]

If you ask me the only reason 10.2 was pirated so much is because Apple released two ADC seeds to pretty much anyone who had even the cheapest membership (me, for example). I got my copy legally without paying for it (I was given an ADC key by a friend).

Larger seeds = more widespread and faster diffusion to Hotline, IRC, Carracho, ect.

It's really nothing to worry about. You can bet the pirated versions hardly effect sales. Remember that even prerelease builds were paid for by some ADC member (for more than 130$ too).

And there's no way 10.2 was pirated more than, say, 10.0.

I bet 9.x was the most pirated seeing as how much easier it was to get warez back then. Not to mention the file sizes were smaller and you didn't need to burn to cd.

[workerbee]

Originally posted by gorgonzola:
And to be frank, if some people don't feel 10.2 is a compelling upgrade, then don't upgrade.

Yeah, we'll upgrade. We'll buy one copy of Jag, and use it on 2 macs. US$ 85 (european prices) per copy, that's more like what I consider fair upgrade pricing. Actually, US$ 56.66 would be even closer to what Apple should reasonably ask existing OSX guinea pig users for.

[SpiffyGuyC]

Apple's got some pretty good copy protection on their FCP3 CD's...they could easily apply it to their OS discs without requiring a serial number. Make something hard to pirate in the first place, and you don't have to go the s/n route.

S

[TheMosco]

Well it is good to hear that so many poeple are going to be buying Jag. I know there was lot of talk on these forums when 10.1 was released but i don't remember it being this much.


And i know that serial numbers dont stop piracy, i just meant it would be an annoyance if we had to make sure we didn't loose the number everytime we needed to re-install.

[edit for spelling, chimera displays the type weird in 10.2 when typing stuff.]

[alphamatrix]

Originally posted by pliny:

I don''t know but I have my suspicions.

weather=whether

gee, hock it on the corner or something.

where=were

And I thought you could come up with a better response than just correcting my spelling!

[dark3lf]

I'll admit to having 6c115 installed, but there is also an Apple Store 7 miles from where I live. On the 24th (or 29th) I'll be the first one on line.

[pliny]

Originally posted by alphamatrix:


And I thought you could come up with a better response than just correcting my spelling!

Originally posted by alphamatrix:
But I dont what to here all of this crap about how your not gonna buy 10.2 cause you have to pay for .Mac or the price is too high.

what=want
even worse, your=you're

[typoon]

I too am using a copy that was obtained by other means. I am Definately buying the release copy when it comes out. I couldn't wait any longer. I held off on the beta build til I saw 6c115 was GM Then I jumped on it. Also Jobs' Demo didn't help out much either with my urge to get this.

Yes it may have bugs that will most likely be fixed in a later release but Man so far I am VERY happy with this upgrade. To me this is the REAL OS X we have been waiting for

[Gankdawg]

Even the so-called anti piracy serial numbers needed for Windoze XP were cracked BEFORE the actual release of the OS. Serial numbers won't stop anybody.....

[brainchild2b]

who is the retard that's says "if you screw me I will screw you... and microsoft tacktics?"

Your an idiot. Who should pay for 10.2? Why shouldn't you have to pay for newer software? Did you buy 10.2? NO. If you bought 10.1, did anything come with it saying 10.2 was cheepier or free? NO? Well then why did you buy it? This is how life works, apple spends millions on each release, and you GASP! have to pay for it.

Apple didn't screw you, in fact they are pretty damn good with upgrades, microsoft on the other hand charges for every upgrade, each time. Apple doesn't do that. Welcome to reality, there is no reason Apple should give 10.2 away. It's worth $$$, and even if it wasn't, if you don't want to buy it then stick with the 10.1 you did buy.

[Jerome]

Before I order 10.2, I'd like to know how it rides (sorry, MTB deformation) on my G4 350. Sure Apple tells us it's fast, it's good, it's revolutionnary, but then again, they tell us those things about the PowerMacs. Not much credibility if you ask me!

Apple over-hype their products. I'm not sure I should fork 130$ for a semi-improved OS. I'm not saying I'll pirate it, but 10.1, while it could be a lot better, does it's job. I don't believe 10.2 is so much better that it's worth a full price upgrade. It's probably worth it if you're still on OS 9 tough.

By the way, who said 6C115 was GM? Think Secret?

[davidmd]

Originally posted by brainchild2b:
who is the retard that's says "if you screw me I will screw you... and microsoft tacktics?"

Your an idiot. Who should pay for 10.2? Why shouldn't you have to pay for newer software? Did you buy 10.2? NO. If you bought 10.1, did anything come with it saying 10.2 was cheepier or free? NO? Well then why did you buy it? This is how life works, apple spends millions on each release, and you GASP! have to pay for it.

Apple didn't screw you, in fact they are pretty damn good with upgrades, microsoft on the other hand charges for every upgrade, each time. Apple doesn't do that. Welcome to reality, there is no reason Apple should give 10.2 away. It's worth $$$, and even if it wasn't, if you don't want to buy it then stick with the 10.1 you did buy.

To clarify his point, I think he was referring to the "cornered-in" .Mac pricing screwing him. So he wants to "screw" Apple back by pirating 10.2. I'm not giving an opinion as to good v. bad, just making his point clear.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Kristoff:
Technically, I don't think that's pirating.

That falls under fair use.

Now, if you start re-distributing...then you are a pirate.

Nope, that's pirating all right.

Ahem...

Traditionally, final builds of the OS are among the least-pirated programs on the Mac. The reason, generally speaking, is that people want to support Apple. Even most Mac warez sites will refuse to carry the current final release, and will pull any prereleases they have of it when the final is released.

However, prerelease builds of the OS are traditionally among the most-pirated programs on the Mac. Perhaps Apple should learn a lesson from this.

10.2 may be different. There are a lot of people who are dissatisfied about Apple's recent price-gouging moves. I'm dissatisfied myself, though I intend to pay for a copy of Jaguar. And I may have also to pay for a year of .mac. And yes, in my particular situation it actually is a case of being forced to pay; I would switch out if I could, but circumstances forbid that.

I don't know what to hope for. In one case, rampant piracy of 10.2 may give Apple the wake-up call that it sorely needs. Then again, Jobs is arrogant enough to not listen to that signal. And considering that the other possible outcome of rampant piracy in this climate is nothing less than The Death Of Apple, I'm not sure piracy is worth it at this point.

[talisker]

Originally posted by moulish:
i have bought every OS since system8, but i won't pay for 10.2

the reason? they gave me an email adress saying it was free. now i can't live without it, everyone i know (friends, family, clients, mailing list, etc, etc) has it. if they would have told me they would charge, i would have look somewhere else. but no, i'm force to buy it now.

they deceided to do their business the microsoft way, okay, that's how i'll deal with them too.

it's simple, you screw me, i screw you.

so, to answer your question, if they finally deceide to gave .mac email only to their old user, i'll buy it. if not, i'll make a copy from the office. they have my money either way.

In a nutshell, what you are saying is:

Apple started charging for itools/.mac, and although I don't like it they are legally entitled to do so. So in return I will steal one of their products.

On re-reading your post I see you have "clients". I'm surprised, since my immediate reaction had been that you were still attending school. Can you let everyone know the name of your company, so that anyone dealing with it is aware of the firm's ethical position.

[Currawong]

Originally posted by Jerome:
Before I order 10.2, I'd like to know how it rides (sorry, MTB deformation) on my G4 350. Sure Apple tells us it's fast, it's good, it's revolutionnary, but then again, they tell us those things about the PowerMacs. Not much credibility if you ask me!

It rides very well...thinksecret gives a good overview of the changes. I was impressed enough to pay for it on July 18. Now i'm using it, I'm even more impressed.

Apple over-hype their products. I'm not sure I should fork 130$ for a semi-improved OS. I'm not saying I'll pirate it, but 10.1, while it could be a lot better, does it's job. I don't believe 10.2 is so much better that it's worth a full price upgrade. It's probably worth it if you're still on OS 9 tough.

I would say "vastly improved". I find it quite hypocritical that someone would not pay for something, complain about it, then neither give feedback to Apple about what they'd like to see (many of the changes in 10.2 reflect user feedback), nor give them any incentive ($) to improve it further still. I'd also like to see all the whiners create a UNIX-based OS that can sleep, plug-and-play USB and firewire devices and play DVD's, to name just a very few features.

By the way, who said 6C115 was GM? Think Secret?

People who have received the retail version.

[Mr. Blur]

I've yet to have any hands on experience with 10.2 - I have a copy on order with my local Apple dealer and will pick it up asap...probably monday 26th (I'm away on the 24th....). Although the temptation was there to d/l a "leaked" copy, I resisted that temptation and will wait somewhat patiently................even though I am buying my copy, d/l still seemed a bit wrong to me (i still feel guilty over that copy of dp3 i grabbed a couple years ago....)

[G-mac]

After reading MacNNers positive comments on 10.2's performance on Ti550s, I immediately pre-ordered Jag via Apple's education store. I think most MacNNers will be buying their own copies of 10.2. As was previously mentioned, the people using these forums are some of the most passionate and knowledgeable Mac users around (besides Apple employees and co-founders). We all get so impatient to see the newest technology, hence the beta use/testing and inside info, but in the end (despite complaining and whining) a great majority of us are fully behind Apple and purchase its products. We just expect nothing less than the best from our favorite corporation.

[jcb9]

Originally posted by moulish:
the reason? they gave me an email adress saying it was free. now i can't live without it, everyone i know (friends, family, clients, mailing list, etc, etc) has it. if they would have told me they would charge, i would have look somewhere else. but no, i'm force to buy it now.

Oh please. You can't live without a single email address? What a poor, poor soul you are, forced to change your email address or (gasp!) actually pay for the services you take advantage of. Truly, you know the meaning of suffering.

Just because something is free doesn't mean it'll stay free forever.

[Currawong]

Apple are so pathetic...they are crap now, they should give me a free email address all the time and free software for free all the time and make it with no bugs. I should be able to buy the latest top of the range powermac for $100 and it should be faster than all my friend's Pentiums. How dare they charge money for anything! I'm going to rip off all their stuff and download my own G4 because paying for it sux.

</end pisstake>

(I bought 10.2 on July 18th)

[mrchin]

Originally posted by moulish:
i have bought every OS since system8, but i won't pay for 10.2

the reason? they gave me an email adress saying it was free. now i can't live without it, everyone i know (friends, family, clients, mailing list, etc, etc) has it. if they would have told me they would charge, i would have look somewhere else. but no, i'm force to buy it now.

They did tell you that it may not be free forever. If you read the license agreement, you would have seen that Apple could discontinue, change or start charging for it without notice at any time. I wish it were still free too, but I guess I'll suffer through that 0.13 cents a day.

[noisefloor]

"many of the people who are b*tching about broken apps know that they won't be fixed on the 24th."

With the software update, it's entirely possible that many of the bugs will be fixed quickly (probably not on the 24th although that would be possible, however unlikely). Even if you have 115 now, you don't "know" anything.

"Just because something is free doesn't mean it'll stay free forever."

Having to change your email address *is* a hardship - if you've sent out resumes with a .mac address, what are you supposed to do, send out all new ones with a new address? People who've been using .mac addresses will likely have to sign up for the first year just to have enough time to get their new address out.

And yes, apple DID imply that itools would be free forever, part of their promo hyped the fact that changing email addresses is a pain, and "now you can have this address as long as you want".

[captnroger]

My order is already in. I'd even give them an extra $20 if I could get it tomorrow!

Seriously though, I don't see piracy in general as being any better or worse than it is on the Intel/AMD platforms. P-to-P file sharing networks and affordable broadband just make it too easy. I'm also not sitting here saying I don't have any applications on my machine that I haven't paid for, because I do, although not that many. Bottom line is that if I use an app on a regular basis, I buy it. If it sits there and I launch it once in a great blue moon, I don't (unless it's quality shareware, then I do to support the author).
I don't think this makes me a bad person - I buy my fair share of new software titles.

Does that make me a 'pirate'? Don't know, don't care. I'd never pirate an OS though, and by pirate I mean not eventually buy. Would I 'preview'? Sure, but haven't done so in the case of 10.2.

I am still a little steamed that 10.2 is shipping on the new PMs and didn't come on my new 17" iMac that I bought this past Saturday though! Not because of the lousy $20, but because Apple chose not to package it in all new imacs.

[moulish]

you guys makes me laugh. if microsoft would have done this, EVERYONE in here would be complaining. but since it's apple, it's great.

well, i can't wait to ear you all thanking microsoft when they will start charging for IE. and believe me, they will someday.

i've always love apple and their products, but when it comes to the point that they try to attach you to their free product and then charge you after, well, i'm sorry, but i don't think it's a great move.

the reason i'm not buying it is, i was never supposed to included 150$ (canadian) a year in my budget for something they gave me. so they will make more money from me from .mac (wich i would not have bought) than jaguar, so they are the winner anyway.

[thirsty]

When I was a widows user I toatally refused to buy there software, I would always borrow a copy from somebody and just load it on my machine, worked fine If a problem came up borrow it again.

But since i moved over to Mac I have no problem buying software, even Office vX, as long as i can get it at a reasonable price, ( my attitude has changed ) Initially I said no way to 10.2 but have since realized there is more to this upgrade than what I see on the surface. I will fork out the money as soon as I can get a good discount on the $229 AU - Education pricing seems attractive? ( now where is that Uni friends phone number )

[MacGorilla]

I am using education pricing, as well, but even without it I'd buy it because it's such a massive upgrade and with tons of nifty features.

[Brazuca]

With the discussion on piracy, I find it interesting to note that the best way to prevent piracy is goodwill. As someone pointed out above (Millenium?), Apple OS releases are not usually pirated because people _want_ to support Apple. We all want them to grow so they can give us better hardware/software.

But I definitely understand why pirating will be higher now. Whether Apple was in its legal rights or not, they did _in fact_ get some people angry. And to the extent that these people no longer care about Apple, they will no longer go out of their way to make sure they get a legal copy.

Apple understands this (as per Steve's comments on music piracy), and they decided to risk this. Apple until recently was seen as the "good" company. Well, a lot of people no longer think so, opting instead to classify Apple as just another business. Unfortunately, this strips the "goodwill" protection that Apple had.

I'm curious to see what will happen. Looking at the worse case scenario:

very few people sign up for .Mac -it fails
the new PMs prove to suck - no sales
Piracy of 10.2 is rampant - even less revenue.

if (a big "if") all this materializes, than what exactly will Apple do? It's strategy will have failed. But it may all be a moot point.

Oh, btw....I'm _not_ going to buy 10.2 or .Mac. I'm going to tie my Resume mac.com email to my brother's (since he needs his iDisk). He is also going to buy Jaguar (at ed. price), but I suspect he will be the only one in the family (since I will no longer ensure that everyone else buys their own copy). I simply don't care enough anymore to spend my time fighting for Apple. That's my prerogative.

[plyxrbo]

Originally posted by TheMosco:
It seems like everyone here has got 10.2 installed and i am guessing that most you are not ADC members. I am not an ADC member but i do have Jag installed but i know i am going to buy Jaguar. I am little worried that if this type of pirating continues that we will see some sort of serial number thing and i know we would all hate that and complain about it. I know that some of you think that mac os 10.2 is too expensive but you can find it for under 100 dollars if you look and if you are a student, it is pretty cheap. Some of you complain that 10.2 should have been 10.0 and that we have been beta testers for the last 18 months. You can say that about any product ever released. It just doesn't hold up. Plus you got 10.1 for free. Doesn't anyone else think we shoudl help support Apple? If they keep losing money, they might have to start charing more for products.

i for one will be supporting apple and purchasing 10.2 at the apple store. in fact, i am planning on driving down to the one closest to me in virginia that day.

i believe if you love it, then it is worth paying for it.