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dbergstrom · Sep 1, 2003, 11:14 AM

eWeek is reporting uncertainty on when Microsoft's next version of Windows will ship. The hold-up is all of the "innovation" which will be packaged in the OS. Chuckle over the following:

"A partner with a Midwest company who works closely on Windows and who requested anonymity said he wants to see more distributed computing features, which is a logical path for Microsoft's .Net initiative to take.

"'When I'm writing code at home or rendering something, why does it have to happen on my home machine? Why can't it seamlessly run those tasks on the dozen or so machines I have access to that are just sitting there?" he asked.'"

Why not buy OS X and code on XCode?

Wiskedjak · Sep 1, 2003, 11:24 AM

It's a good thing Apple never delays any of it's pre-announced products ...

CheesePuff · Sep 1, 2003, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
It's a good thing Apple never delays any of it's pre-announced products ...

The Power Mac G5 shipped on time, just the top of the line model has not shipped yet. But in this case we are talking a month late, not 2 years plus for Windows.

stuffedmonkey · Sep 1, 2003, 12:32 PM

Hey man - lighten up on Microsoft! Reverse engineering other peoples' products takes time...

Wiskedjak · 12:48 PM

Originally posted by CheesePuff:
The Power Mac G5 shipped on time, just the top of the line model has not shipped yet. But in this case we are talking a month late, not 2 years plus for Windows.

Actually, I'm thinking about the first versions of the redesigned iMac. That was delayed anywhere from 3 to 6 months, depending on where you were.

Then there's OS 10.0. Sure, that was released on time, but it was so poorly finished that it was practically beta until 10.2 was released, in the mean time charging for the patch (10.1) and charging for what the SHOULD have been original commercial release (10.2). Imagine how delayed it would have been had Apple decided to wait until the product was finished before releasing it?

JLL · Sep 1, 2003, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
in the mean time charging for the patch (10.1)

10.1 was free.

Wiskedjak · Sep 1, 2003, 12:59 PM

Only if you got it within a limited time period. If you missed that window, which closed before 10.2 was released, you had to pay for it.

JLL · Sep 1, 2003, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Only if you got it within a limited time period. If you missed that window, which closed before 10.2 was released, you had to pay for it.

That's your own fault then.

Wiskedjak · Sep 1, 2003, 01:24 PM

Charging for 10.1 is, however, beside the point, which is that had Apple waited until OSX was actually FINISHED (10.2) before releaseing it, they would have had a delay rivaling Longhorn's.

biscool · Sep 1, 2003, 01:27 PM

And longhorn will be perfect out of the box

CheesePuff · Sep 1, 2003, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:

Then there's OS 10.0. Sure, that was released on time, but it was so poorly finished that it was practically beta until 10.2 was released, in the mean time charging for the patch (10.1) and charging for what the SHOULD have been original commercial release (10.2). Imagine how delayed it would have been had Apple decided to wait until the product was finished before releasing it?

Actually, Mac OS X was not released on time.

It was suppose to be released in 2000.

Wiskedjak · Sep 1, 2003, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by biscool:
And longhorn will be perfect out of the box

The average version of Windows is more finished than 10.0 was. Windows ME (which was released so that MS could have something to sell to the home user between Win98 and WinXP) being the obvious exception.

I'm not saying that MS is perfect. I'm just saying that neither is Apple. If you're going to laugh at MS for delaying a product, you have to be aware that Apple has the same issues.

foobars · Sep 1, 2003, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by CheesePuff:
Actually, Mac OS X was not released on time.

It was suppose to be released in 2000.

Actually it was supposed to be released in 1998 and was called Copland but nevermind that =)

Apple's gunning for 3 major OS releases in 3 years. Panther is a completely different OS than 10.0 was, its really amazing to me how quickly OSX has matured.

dopik · Sep 1, 2003, 02:31 PM

Because of the delay of longhorn, they will probably release another OS like they did with Win Me because XP was so much delayed.

Any thought on that...

dopik

ASIMO · Sep 2, 2003, 12:06 AM

Schadenfreude is A-Okay in my book. As long as I do not partake.

Zimphire · Sep 2, 2003, 12:23 AM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
The average version of Windows is more finished than 10.0 was. Windows ME (which was released so that MS could have something to sell to the home user between Win98 and WinXP) being the obvious exception.

The Core of Windows hasn't changed that greatly since 95. OS X is a completely different OS than OS 9.

When Win95 FIRST came out, it was a nightmare.

TheIceMan · Sep 2, 2003, 12:46 AM

Originally posted by stuffedmonkey:
Hey man - lighten up on Microsoft! Reverse engineering other peoples' products takes time...

ROTFL!!!

ryarber · Sep 2, 2003, 02:17 AM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Charging for 10.1 is, however, beside the point, which is that had Apple waited until OSX was actually FINISHED (10.2) before releaseing it, they would have had a delay rivaling Longhorn's.

Mac OS X wasn't finished with 10.2 either. There will soon be a 10.3. Afterward, in about 18 months or so, there will be a 10.4, etc., etc. Apple gave us what we were all clamoring for, that is a useable OS based on their next technologies. The released OS X 10.0 with no major flaws. I don't consider slowness to be a major flaw as it doesn't cause you to lose data or fry your RAM or anything like that. It did cause those who CHOSE to buy it some lost time. However, everyone knew this when they WILLINGLY shelled out the money for it.

I would have paid for 10.1 had they required it.

I paid for 10.2.

I will pay for 10.3, 10.4, etc.

The only OS that Apple has ever "finished" is MacOS 9.2.x.

Apple decides what their threshold is for a major upgrade. They give these a point increase. They decide when they think they have added enough new stuff to an OS as to justify charging people again for their work. You decide if that is fair. If you don't like it, don't buy it. I'll be going with Apple unless it gets totally ridiculous in that I'm paying for bug fixes. Then I'd probably switch platforms out of protest. I'm excited about the new stuff coming out in 10.3 and I can't wait to give Apple my $129 or whatever to be able to use it on my new G5 I'm hoping to have delivered by then.

To this point, with every Apple OS upgrade that I've ever had to pay for, and I've paid for all of them since 7.5, I've felt that the increased functionality was worth the price. One exception being 10.0 which was definitely a step backward in terms of speed and features compared to 9. However, I wanted to step up so that I could begin to know and use the OS of the future for all us mac devotees.

ryarber · Sep 2, 2003, 02:19 AM

Originally posted by foobars:
Actually it was supposed to be released in 1998 and was called Copland but nevermind that

I believe you are referring to Rhapsody. Copeland was supposed to be released in the late '80's or early '90's wasn't it? I thought it was supposed to be in 1988.

ryarber · Sep 2, 2003, 02:22 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
The Core of Windows hasn't changed that greatly since 95. OS X is a completely different OS than OS 9.

When Win95 FIRST came out, it was a nightmare. [/B]

I think you are mistaken there. The core of Win95 is similar to Windows 3.2 and MS-DOS.

Whistler (XP) was supposed to be a new core (the NT core) and thus a change of direction for the consumer version of Windows. I know they have a ton of legacy stuff in there that probably shouldn't be, but they don't have the balls that apple does in that they don't tell the developers that it just won't be there to use any more and you will have to live with it.

zadak · Sep 2, 2003, 02:38 AM

Originally posted by dopik:
Because of the delay of longhorn, they will probably release another OS like they did with Win Me because XP was so much delayed.

Any thought on that...

They are. Think of it as XP SE.

- - e r i k - - · Sep 2, 2003, 03:12 AM

Oh I'll just repeat my joke:

By the time Longhorn is released it will be nicknamed Longtooth.

intastella · Sep 2, 2003, 03:19 AM

Any guesses on whether we will be using 10.5 or 10.6 by the time Longhorn is released?

Cipher13 · Sep 2, 2003, 09:06 AM

Originally posted by foobars:
Actually it was supposed to be released in 1998 and was called Copland but nevermind that =)

Apple's gunning for 3 major OS releases in 3 years. Panther is a completely different OS than 10.0 was, its really amazing to me how quickly OSX has matured.

Actually, Copland was nothing to do with OS X.

That was Rhapsody.

dfiler · Sep 2, 2003, 01:37 PM

Copland has everything to do with OS X. Both were meant to replace the current Mac OS with a more modern OS. If Copland hadn't failed, OS X would not exist.

As much as I despise the MS corporate culture, the delay isn't too damning. It's typical for such a major overhaul to be delayed. More suprising is how frequently they do this. The transition from 95/98/Me to NT/2000/XP should have lasted them a while. Instead, they're making such major changes again that release date (year) is slipping.

Horsepoo!!! · Sep 2, 2003, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by dfiler:
Copland has everything to do with OS X. Both were meant to replace the current Mac OS with a more modern OS. If Copland hadn't failed, OS X would not exist.

As much as I despise the MS corporate culture, the delay isn't too damning. It's typical for such a major overhaul to be delayed. More suprising is how frequently they do this. The transition from 95/98/Me to NT/2000/XP should have lasted them a while. Instead, they're making such major changes again that release date (year) is slipping.

I have a feeling these major changes have something to do with OS X changing at a rapid rate. I think MS is trying really hard to 1-up Apple but they're too far behind.

They saw what 10.3 has to offer. Everytime MS will find a feature they want to copy...such as Expos� for example, they'll have to push the release date back. It's very likely that 10.4 or even 10.5 will be released before Longhorn is released. MS will have to decide when to stop copying features to incorporate in Longhorn eventually.

DeathMan · Sep 2, 2003, 02:40 PM

Its supposed to have a new *compositing engine* gasp!

mpbritt · Sep 2, 2003, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by DeathMan:
Its supposed to have a new *compositing engine* gasp!

Also known as "Quartz Extreme."

Wiskedjak · Sep 2, 2003, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
The Core of Windows hasn't changed that greatly since 95. OS X is a completely different OS than OS 9.

When Win95 FIRST came out, it was a nightmare. [/B]

And the Core of Longhorn is completely different than Win9x (xp, etc). If core difference is you Apple appology for getting OSX shipping, than my comparision is still accurate.

Wiskedjak · Sep 2, 2003, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by dopik:
Because of the delay of longhorn, they will probably release another OS like they did with Win Me because XP was so much delayed.

Any thought on that...

dopik

Possibly, though I'm sure they're aware that they wouldn't be able to get away with it twice.

Art Vandelay · Sep 2, 2003, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
And the Core of Longhorn is completely different than Win9x (xp, etc). If core difference is you Apple appology for getting OSX shipping, than my comparision is still accurate.

XP is not part of the Win9x lineup. It is an NT-based OS (NT 5.1 to be precise). Longhorn is just another NT-based OS update. It's core is not that different from XP.

Horsepoo!!! · Sep 2, 2003, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
Possibly, though I'm sure they're aware that they wouldn't be able to get away with it twice.

Wanna bet? Everyone's a sheep in the computer world.

WinFiller 2004 could come out and everyone would jump on it like a pack of retards. 10.2 came out and most of us jumped on it...10.3 is coming out and I, in my upgrade lunacy, will be the first in line to buy it.

Apple is adopting Microsoft's older "Try to upgrade the OS every year" method but is actually more gentle about it by not charging twice as much as what MS typically charged.

Apple is also giving us more incentive to buy the OS...10.3 is faster than ever (maybe it was a the whole ploy from the beginning...start with a dog-slow OS and make it faster after 3 revisions). Thankfully 10.1 was free.

So while Windows upgrades made Windows slower and slower on the same hardware...us Mac users are actually getting a faster and faster OS on the same hardware so it's well worth the price (or is it?)

I must be a sheep.

ASIMO · Sep 2, 2003, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
...
I must be a sheep.

Worse, judging by your handle.

cowerd · Sep 3, 2003, 01:07 AM

Longhorn is just another NT-based OS update. It's core is not that different from XP.

New graphics engine, new file system (SQL engine on top of NTFS) and new IDE are pretty substantial changes. If Apple did this you'd have to change your pants.

Thinine · Sep 3, 2003, 01:13 AM

Originally posted by cowerd:
New graphics engine, new file system (SQL engine on top of NTFS) and new IDE are pretty substantial changes. If Apple did this you'd have to change your pants.

Yeah, bitmaps in motion, a fragmented database, and new tools to pay thousands of dollars for. Why didn't you say so in the first place!

- - e r i k - - · Sep 3, 2003, 02:44 AM

Originally posted by cowerd:
New graphics engine, new file system (SQL engine on top of NTFS) and new IDE are pretty substantial changes. If Apple did this you'd have to change your pants.

Didn't Apple already do this

A substantial filesystem is sure to come in 10.4 (before Longhorn) with a full Be-like database.

cowerd · Sep 3, 2003, 02:51 AM

Yeah, bitmaps in motion, a fragmented database, and new tools to pay thousands of dollars for. Why didn't you say so in the first place!

God I hate playing Wintroll, but its too easy with some of the maclots here.

Bitmaps in motion, no database, and free tools. I'd pretty much call it a wash with OSX. Of course, Apple does now a couple of more years to get a decent metadata implementation into the OS before MS does. Suddenly all the BeOS speculation is nonexistent. No one seems too miss this feature from Panther? Labels are pretty, but so OS9.

Didn't Apple already do this

Duh and most everyone here had to go home and change pants when it was announced. Just because some of it is already in OSX doesn't mean its not a big change from XP to Longhorn.

MadBrowser · Sep 3, 2003, 02:51 AM

Like it or not, Longhorn will be a force to be reckoned with.

I use OS X and XP together every day. I'd rather die than have to get rid of my OS X box...

But the new WinFS file system does look pretty killer... We've heard all kinds of rumors of Apple hiring Be folks to give us something like that in OS X. If that turns out to be the case, we're in good shape.

What I want:

1. Panther seed that can run WebObjects
2. Better debugging in Xcode
3. New WO that fixes a bunch of bugs.

The biggest mistake we can make is to underestimate our adversary.

Pierre B. · Sep 3, 2003, 03:39 AM

It looks like Palladium is completely forgoten in this discussion...

JLL · Sep 3, 2003, 04:04 AM

Originally posted by MadBrowser:
But the new WinFS file system does look pretty killer...

Look killer! MS are experts in over hyping.

Let's see how it turns out before making judgments.

Originally posted by MadBrowser:
1. Panther seed that can run WebObjects
2. Better debugging in Xcode
3. New WO that fixes a bunch of bugs.

What does WO have to do with it?

Horsepoo!!! · Sep 3, 2003, 07:47 AM

Originally posted by cowerd:
God I hate playing Wintroll, but its too easy with some of the maclots here.

Bitmaps in motion, no database, and free tools. I'd pretty much call it a wash with OSX. Of course, Apple does now a couple of more years to get a decent metadata implementation into the OS before MS does. Suddenly all the BeOS speculation is nonexistent. No one seems too miss this feature from Panther? Labels are pretty, but so OS9.
Duh and most everyone here had to go home and change pants when it was announced. Just because some of it is already in OSX doesn't mean its not a big change from XP to Longhorn.

It might be a big change but...been there, done that. I'm not gonna soil my undies a second time and I'd be very disappointed if anyone on the Windows side of things did since by that time OS X with Quartz Extreme will be 3 years old and we'll have Quartz Super Duper Extreme with 3D holographic projections by then.

It's almost like someone jizzing their pants when Windows 3.x came out...ridiculous.

Nonsuch · Sep 3, 2003, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by zadak:
They are. Think of it as XP SE.

They'll call it "Windows XP Secure Edition" and bill it as the most secure, locked-down Windows ever. And it will just be the same XP, but with all the friggin' vulnerabilities closed by default instead of left open.

clarkgoble · Sep 3, 2003, 01:45 PM

Actually I strongly suspect security has everything to do with the delays. Microsofts been burned a lot with security the past year. They may start losing government contracts because of it. Yet security isn't really something one can easily just "strap on." And there are problems throughout Windows with that. Yeah some things they could do hacks to fix. Others require fundamental design changes. So it may well be that some whole sections of Longhorn need rewritten.

RooneyX · Sep 3, 2003, 02:01 PM

The longer Micro$haft takes the more time they'll have to pirate 10.3, 10.4 and 10.5.

CharlesS · Sep 3, 2003, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by cowerd:
New graphics engine, new file system (SQL engine on top of NTFS) and new IDE are pretty substantial changes. If Apple did this you'd have to change your pants.

OS X had all of those things.

New graphics engine: Quartz

New file system: UFS (ok, granted, this is a stretch)

New IDE: Project Builder (and they're doing it again with XCode)

tooki · Sep 3, 2003, 11:48 PM

Wrong forum.

tooki