[G0Ducks]

Dear Fellow OS Customization Consumers,

So, I have been thinking about this for a while. It seems to me that Unsanity would sell a lot more haxies if they raised the price of Shapeshifter (their center piece) to like $29.00, and sold their other haxies for half of what they are selling at now.

Case in point; I have been wanting to get windowshadeX for a while now, but every time I go there, Its like $10 bucks... and I turn away.

Shoot... I don't know. I understand the need to run a business, and the need to have a limited test drive (well, maybe not so short of one, especially because I have read they are hack proof), but maybe I would have purchased a lot more if when I bought SS I had better bundling options than saving a buck or two.

So far, I have perchased ShapeShifter, Fruitmenu, Silk, and MightyMouse...I really wish I could trade out MightMouse for WindowshadeX Oh well.
That reminds me, doesn't it make sense to just make MightMouse a part of SS? I mean, they don't have a separate Icon changer, desktop image changer... Something seems a little backwards there.

Not flaming, just wishing/questioning I guess...

R

P.S. Anyone who would find some sort of horrid insult to their soul from this post, please just pass it by. I am simply raising some questions from a consumer point of view. I am in no way trying to hurt, harm, flame, insult, or otherwise shenanigan Unsanity, nor their developers. Thanks.

[Kevin]

Did you know themes were free?

How come theme makers can't make money off doing half the work?

[Slayer-X]

Personally I don't mind paying the prices they have now, since they promise free updates thereafter. I am not too pleased to hear that the next SS update will supposedly cost money - but I hope they at least offer current users an upgrade price as opposed to paying out a full price. Now one program you will not see me buy though is the chat log program. If it was ten maybe, but at the current price, it just doesn't seem worth it when Adium has built in chat logging, and there are free chat log programs just as good. Oh yes, back to my point - I don't mind paying for the programs as long as I get those free upgrades when they come out.

[DigitalEl]

The thinness of this GUI forum is a sad commentary on the state of theming. I ponied up for ShapeShifter back when it came out... We were all obsessed back in the heyday, with Max and That Other Guy puttin' out great new stuff every couple of weeks. Then, like almost everything, it faded away. I haven't installed and used a new theme in probably 18 months.

When the next version of SS comes out, unless it does some wild new thing I haven't yet fathomed, I'm pretty sure I'll be passing.

I don't claim to speak for everyone, but I guarantee I'm not alone.

[G0Ducks]

Yeah. I know themes are free (well, they don't cost money.) That brings up a very strong argument for lowering the price of ShapeShifter. Originally, when SS first came out, it had the support of the best themers (they provided some of their best themes as default choices.) Now, swiz, max, and the other slightly less famous themers are all but gone now...
This rips the scab right off really... Unsanity is making pretty good money on the hard work of themers. Sure sure, they are offering an outlet for themes in the first place, but please, chicken or egg this situation.
Putting that with DigitalEl's argument about the thinness of this community, it seems hardly viable for Unsanity to charge what they do.

Yeah, Im glad to pay for good software, but I would be a lot more glad if I could pay less.

R

[digitaljames]

What does the cost of unsanity's apps have to do with the theming scene? There is still Themechanger (free) and if any *themers* think theming should be free then they are free to use the dtla format like we did before ShapeShifter. People pay for SS because it's safe, allows a wider range of alteration from the Apple GUI than you can get manually or with Themechanger. The themers who have embraced SS do so because there are no longer any "I applied your theme and it killed my OS" posts and emails and it allows them to escape the hard coded boundries of Apple and Max still continues to make installers on his themes..... The theming scene is dead only on this forum. Largely due to it's unmoderated atmosphere and the creation of the MacThemes forums. There's a large contingent of windows themers switching to the good side everyday. Susumu and Gerrit have been prolific as of late and Max is back in the fold part time.

[loren s]

how about better themes comeing out ?? woo I can change color ... Wooo.... yay,, 30$ down the drain..
really, I did buy the app, but shesh I though t more inventive stuff would come out. I know apple makes it tough to alter anything, so in lue of that can we get some hacks to change how we work in the computer then ? Like special widgets or something ??

[dru]

It is disappointing Unsanity doesn't give discounts unless you buy in bulk all at once. There's no customer loyalty benefit. That's their business decision to make.

After being a very vocal critic of Shapeshifter when it debuted, I was going to finally pick it up this month. If the next release really is going to be a paid upgrade there's no reason for me to buy now since I really only use Aqua Extreme. It is very disappointing to see how theming has dried up but part of that might be the huge undertaking involved in making a theme.

[Maflynn]

OSX Theming RIP...

Sorry but just look at this forum or even the forum over at macthemes.net. I think the initial excitement of SS was great but that still didn't reduce the amount of work needed to create a theme. Add on the hassle of apple changing things every release and keeping things closed up just means that theming is one step away from oblivian.

Mike

[Kevin]

I think they should either find a way to charge for themes (Not alot, even $1 would be cool) or make everything free.

If it wasn't FOR the theme makers, the people who make theme making apps, or theme changers wouldn't have a product to make money off of.

I think something should be given back to the reason we have themes in the first place.

Probably get more people themeing as well.

I remember the Kaleidoscope shareware themes.

Most were really GOOD themes. Worth the few bucks they cost.

OS X themes take ALOT of time to make and perfect. More so than Kaleidoscope themes did.

I also think no one company should have a monopoly on themes.

[digitaljames]

SS actually added to the amount of work required to make a theme, i.e. app skins, menu enhancements etc. It will never get easier. As far as the chicken/egg sentiment (correct me if I'm wrong), without a theme creation application (Themepark), there wouldn't be themes (see:rsrc files). Why should one pay the other? If themers want to get paid, then they should charge for their work. (contract artists) They shouldn't be paid by the dev's who make the application they theme with in the first place. Adobe doesn't discount Photoshop or pay the people who create with it.....as for a monopoly, anyone is free to step up and make an alternate mouse trap....(cough duality cough)

[phillryu]

Originally Posted by DigitalEl

The thinness of this GUI forum is a sad commentary on the state of theming. I ponied up for ShapeShifter back when it came out... We were all obsessed back in the heyday, with Max and That Other Guy puttin' out great new stuff every couple of weeks. Then, like almost everything, it faded away. I haven't installed and used a new theme in probably 18 months.

When the next version of SS comes out, unless it does some wild new thing I haven't yet fathomed, I'm pretty sure I'll be passing.

I don't claim to speak for everyone, but I guarantee I'm not alone.

It's a plug, but just letting you know. Part of that reason is much of the community has moved here:

MacThemesForums.net

[ArcticBear]

Originally Posted by digitaljames

SS actually added to the amount of work required to make a theme, i.e. app skins, menu enhancements etc. ...

I concur. There is more work involved with OS X theming.

Still, I'd lay the blame on Apple. Each app requires its own tweak because none of them fully follow GUI guidelines. A little hardcoding here, slightly different widgets there. It's a miracle Shapeshifter is able to pull off all it does.


(in response to the thread in general):
If SS isn't doing it for you, don't upgrade till Apple FTFF, and the rest of their GUI. We can hope...

Maybe if Karelia tried putting together a theme-changer app, Jobs & Co. might be, ahh... inspired to put out their own. To be released with OS X Leopard. "Can a leopard change its spots^H^H^H^H^H theme?"

[Tick]

Originally Posted by digitaljames

SS actually added to the amount of work required to make a theme, i.e. app skins, menu enhancements etc. It will never get easier.

If elements that would be colored the same were grouped together, and the color/texture created for one could be applied to all, it'd be hella easier.

Part of the problem is that you do it for free, and when you post it for everyone to download, a lot of people just complain about little nitpicks.

The other part is that, for every theme that is created, it adds value to shapeshifter, and makes it a better product to purchase. But every themer has to use themepark, which is shareware unless you like to chase a nsbutton across a nswindow after it starts being useful. So you're being charged to basically help sell a product from the same developer. This part of why, if I actually made something pretty, I'd want to be paid by the dev, because I'm helping sell his product.

But I won't, so hey

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Tick

This part of why, if I actually made something pretty, I'd want to be paid by the dev, because I'm helping sell his product.

Do you also expect Apple to pay you?

[Tick]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Do you also expect Apple to pay you?

Well, apple doesn't charge for Xcode, you're actually helping my point.

[Chuckit]

But it does charge for OS X, which developers help sell by creating apps and themes. I thought that was the idea there — your creation adds value to the platform it runs on, so the creator of the platform ought to pay you.

[Tick]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

But it does charge for OS X, which developers help sell by creating apps and themes. I thought that was the idea there — your creation adds value to the platform it runs on, so the creator of the platform ought to pay you.

So, let's go over this

Shapeshifter is to ThemePark
as
OS X is to Xcode

So if we consider Shapeshifter a platform just like OS X is a platform, and the tools used to make the platform more useful. The tools are free for apple, and they aren't for shapeshifter. Does it seem fair to charge a themer, someone helping you sell your platform, more than the average user who is going to be paying for your platform just to use the thing that was created (in this instance, a theme)?


As to charging for themes, it could be compared to shareware. Shareware as a model works, but with different varieties of working.

A themer puts in a lot of work to make a theme pretty, and also You also put in a lot of work for shareware to be worth purchasing. So if someone spends 40 hours on a theme, eh, but if they spend 200 on a theme it's probably worth being purchased. But, the way shareware works is that it annoys you into purchasing, basically. There isn't a way in ss to annoy people into purchasing a theme as of right now (but it might be useful later)

Also, apple did buy certain apps to help sell the platform. Omnioutliner, marble blast, and a few others ship with os x. They basically bought itunes, logic, and others. They also ship free products with os x as well. Purchasing specific, very good themes that would ship with ss, or could be purchased through ss would be a comparable business model.

So if you're sure you want to continue to compare to apple, I bet I could continue to provide a logical comparison that would work towards my point, and I'm sure you can that would work towards your point. All I'm saying is that it feels very wrong to charge the people who helps the author of ss make his living. And, that if they were financially compensated, they'd probably be able to put a lot more hours into it, making theming a much better thing on the mac.

Just a thought

[eevyl]

Amen to what The_Tick said.

[digitaljames]

Themepark also exports to dtla not just SS so the alanogy is off base. There is always a free alternative for themers and users. Why is unsanity evil because they charge for an alternate product? I suspect that a large portion of the themers who release quality themes aren't paying for SS anyway.....

[Tick]

Originally Posted by digitaljames

Themepark also exports to dtla not just SS so the alanogy is off base. There is always a free alternative for themers and users. Why is unsanity evil because they charge for an alternate product? I suspect that a large portion of the themers who release quality themes aren't paying for SS anyway.....

I never said they were evil. Look at the previous posts by the ss creator though, he's said he'll probably be removing dlta/others. I'm basing a large portion of my post on that assumption

[G0Ducks]

Not to mention the fact that Unsanity has done a very good job of covering their end...It is nearly,if not, completely impossible to get their stuff illegally. As it should be. This is just going to digitaljames' "those guys got it free" comment.

I don't think Unsanity is evil either... I just think that they should cut their customer base some slack in order to reinvigorate their market.

OR

Someone else should come up with all the same stuff for free using their ape API. It wouldn't be illegal as whoever created the free haxies wouldn't be charging for them. So, if all yall original haxie makers want to squeel about that, then please read the many posts in this thread that relate to the amount of time most themers give for what they do and still release for free...

R

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by digitaljames

SS actually added to the amount of work required to make a theme, i.e. app skins, menu enhancements etc. It will never get easier. As far as the chicken/egg sentiment (correct me if I'm wrong), without a theme creation application (Themepark), there wouldn't be themes (see:rsrc files).

True in a sense. But I made themes before Themepark existed. Ever heard of Sprocket?

My point being is, if the THEMERS are giving out their hardwork for FREE.... so should those making money off said themes.

They are making money off the theme MAKERS and theme USERS.

That is being a bit greedy IMHO.

I would ALTEAST make the theme maker free.

Why should one pay the other? If themers want to get paid, then they should charge for their work. (contract artists)

Or they could sell their themes to people who want to use them.

They shouldn't be paid by the dev's who make the application they theme with in the first place.

Of course the devs shouldn't really pay them

Adobe doesn't discount Photoshop or pay the people who create with it.....as for a monopoly, anyone is free to step up and make an alternate mouse trap....(cough duality cough)

Well when one invents a new product with a closed file type for themes, the themers will have to make 3 or 4 or 5 different versions of themes.

Maybe there shouldn't be such a thing? All of it open.

[phillryu]

Originally Posted by Kevin

True in a sense. But I made themes before Themepark existed. Ever heard of Sprocket?

My point being is, if the THEMERS are giving out their hardwork for FREE.... so should those making money off said themes.

They are making money off the theme MAKERS and theme USERS.

That is being a bit greedy IMHO.

I would ALTEAST make the theme maker free.

Or they could sell their themes to people who want to use them.

Of course the devs shouldn't really pay them

Well when one invents a new product with a closed file type for themes, the themers will have to make 3 or 4 or 5 different versions of themes.

Maybe there shouldn't be such a thing? All of it open.

AFAIK Themepark is one of the most benign shareware apps ever right? I've heard of lots of themers using it for free for years before purchasing it (or not).

[MacDog]

The bottom line is there's a market for ShapeShifter, so they charge for it. It's called business.

[dru]

Is there really a market MacDog? Kaleidoscope spawned hundreds of schemes at its archive. ShapeShifter doesn't have that critical mass. Actually there seems to have been a significant drop off after ShapeShifter's first six months. Compare to WindowBlinds on the PC: there's a fairly huge archive.

Perhaps better (easier) theme creation tools are what's needed. Or we could just forget the whole thing since Apple's not concerned in keeping a unified look in OSX...

It just seems there are other things Unsanity could be doing rather than chasing Apple.

[digitaljames]

Let's pretend Unsanity chooses to remit a portion of their profits to release themers. Who gets paid what?and in what ratio? Does Max get say 20.00 per theme and Mr. Aqua Recolor 20.00 as well? This could only work if Unsanity held complete control over the *download* of the themes and recursive checking through SS that the theme was actually purchased (iTunes) before applying it. Wrap all that up in a nice pretty white bow and then sell it. Now you have a huge bandwidth cost for Unsanity which negates the profit from added purchases of SS because they want a Max theme and there goes his 20.00.....Theme creation has to either be free (hobbist) or professional (paid) but the onus has to be on the themer to *get his due*. There's just no perfect scenario. I'd also venture to say that the constant updating/improving for Jason (remember SS is made by one person) requires 1000% more time on a daily basis than making themes, Also, it's what buys peoples food, housing, clothes, etc. They're not doing it for a hobby.

[G0Ducks]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha,,*cough cough cough*, ha! I reeeeaaally doubt that he is make enough to pay all the bills with.

Like I said before, I wouldn't mind paying a little more for SS if the rest of the Unsanity haxies were cheeper.
I'm confused about how Unsanity decides what goes into SS and what ends up as a separate haxie. For instance, why icons in SS when there is Candybar? Why not include something like MightyMouse or WindowShadeX?
I really don't think that one could argue that including CandyBar icon package support is in some way competing with CandyBar. I think that some of these CustoSoft™ companies are fighting over a grain of rice. And not the big one in the bag.

R

Originally Posted by digitaljames

Let's pretend Unsanity chooses to remit a portion of their profits to release themers. Who gets paid what?and in what ratio? Does Max get say 20.00 per theme and Mr. Aqua Recolor 20.00 as well? This could only work if Unsanity held complete control over the *download* of the themes and recursive checking through SS that the theme was actually purchased (iTunes) before applying it. Wrap all that up in a nice pretty white bow and then sell it. Now you have a huge bandwidth cost for Unsanity which negates the profit from added purchases of SS because they want a Max theme and there goes his 20.00.....Theme creation has to either be free (hobbist) or professional (paid) but the onus has to be on the themer to *get his due*. There's just no perfect scenario. I'd also venture to say that the constant updating/improving for Jason (remember SS is made by one person) requires 1000% more time on a daily basis than making themes, Also, it's what buys peoples food, housing, clothes, etc. They're not doing it for a hobby.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by MacDog

The bottom line is there's a market for ShapeShifter, so they charge for it. It's called business.

No, there is a market for themes. (SS is just a means to an end. One that is pretty much already exists inside OS X)

So should themers start charging for themes as well?

[G0Ducks]

This goes back to the chicken/egg dichotomy. There should be some compensation for theme artists and Unsanity.
Please, please, please, let's NOT take the focus off of Unsanity's profit from the hard work put forth by theme artists. OK, so there is an excruciatingly tiny market for ShapeShifter, and Unsanity is trying to run a business. However, I strongly doubt that at this point in time, Unsanity or its possible employees (ahem, being positive here) are considering that this will allow them to toss their day-jobs.

My point was not that theme artists should be compensated... it is that the Shareware that Unsanity is selling, cumulatively, is over-priced. This, of course, brought up the issue of "What are they being paid for?"
For certain they should be paid for their work in creating the theme application software. I also think that the theme artists should be paid, if not only via paypal donations.
However, I think that Unsanity has made it very hard for theme artists to get paid. After all, they have built in copyright infringement with the GUItweak, witch is only managed by our community alone.
That said, it has been, and I hope it will remain, the way of this community to share amongst each other.
Therefore, what I think we need, is to have theme creation software that is bundled with ShapeShifter which allows for the easy creating of themes. At this point/rate, an artist releases their theme with their last dying breath.
One final note is that if theme creation was easier, more themes would be created, and less emotional baggage would ensue due to the loss of a limb when create the theme if no one like said theme after it's release.

So, there it is Unsanity... Your people want easy-make themes. If this were to happen, I would gladly give you $20 more dollars. Maybe you could spend a few of the dollars you earned from us to lobby Apple into making their OS a bit more forgiving in its next release. Has this even been tried?

R

Originally Posted by Kevin

No, there is a market for themes. (SS is just a means to an end. One that is pretty much already exists inside OS X)

So should themers start charging for themes as well?

[MetalSnake]

Does Unsanity still work on SS and MM?

[ArcticBear]

My point was not that theme artists should be compensated... it is that the Shareware that Unsanity is selling, cumulatively, is over-priced. This, of course, brought up the issue of "What are they being paid for?"
For certain they should be paid for their work in creating the theme application software. I also think that the theme artists should be paid, if not only via paypal donations.

I don't think $20 is too much for an app that makes changes to the GUI to the extent that ShapeShifter does. Nor an additional $20 for an editor. Compare Iconfactory's GUI combo:

• IconBuilder ($79)
• CandyBar ($13)
• (even...) Pixadex ($19) (why not?)

Now, you don't need IconBuilder and CandyBar to modify your system icons, any more than you need ThemePark and ShapeShifter to morph the look of your GUI, but they help.

Plus, Unsanity has given package rates for their products from time to time. So they're not totally evil.

However, I think that Unsanity has made it very hard for theme artists to get paid. After all, they have built in copyright infringement with the GUItweak, witch is only managed by our community alone.

A theme that is used for free makes no more money than a theme that is GUItweaked and used for free. Themers can release their themes as shareware if they like (worked for Kaleidoscope and even if no one paid the shareware fees, there was no shortage of schemes). Mods of free themes still require permission before public release.

One final note is that if theme creation was easier, more themes would be created,

Agreed. But if you have ideas for making ThemePark easier to use, why not submit them to smeger?

Maybe you could spend a few of the dollars you earned from us to lobby Apple into making their OS a bit more forgiving in its next release. Has this even been tried?

I would be surprised if they had not submitted something to Apple, but you can do that yourself for free. One more voice wouldn't hurt. Plus, I don't think the OS will budge till Steve Jobs gives up the stranglehold on the OS look and feel.

[Kevin]

Unsanity doesn't WANT apple to get into the themeing business. Unsanity would be rendered obsolete.

That is why they had to add something to the whole "themeing" thing by letting you edit EVEN MORE of Aqua.

Too bad a performance hit was made.

I'd rather just use the built in theme renderer in OS X. And not have to "patch" the OS and slow it down.

The very same reason I stopped using Kaliedoscope.

[RenQian]

This may be off-topic, but does anyone have any info on when the next version of SS is coming out and what features it will have? There was talk that it may have to be a paid upgrade, so.... must be some nifty features coming?

[G0Ducks]

Smeger is the only soul that can really answer that. I'm sure there is going to be a severe if not totally unnecessary bit of tight-lipp'edness about it too After all... Not like there are competitors (poke poke)

R

[I WAS the One]

it will be cool if Apple make a software called iThemes, with the unique quality of Apple and you can buy themes from iTunes at 1 dollar each, I will be the first buying it.

[G0Ducks]

uhhh, you are not supposed to talk about NDA stuff in these threads.
Now that the cat is officially out the of bag, let me share some screen shots!

Kidding of course

Soooo beesterd,
R

Originally Posted by I WAS the One

it will be cool if Apple make a software called iThemes, with the unique quality of Apple and you can buy themes from iTunes at 1 dollar each, I will be the first buying it.