[ppayne]

One note on monitors. Apple's have a 1 year warranty whereby Dell's are 3 years. I lost a 20 inch Apple monitor after 1 1/2 years and this really made me mad, hence we buy only Dells now (the monitors, not the craptastic computers). For the savings, and the warranty difference, I can ignore the DELL logo pretty easily.

[mac128k-1984]

Originally Posted by ninahagen 

Thanks for the reply,
Anybody know about the video card quandry?

If you have questions you should start your own thread and not hijack someone elses. This first confuses the issues and not allow the OP to get all if his answers.

[ninahagen]

Wow, I am knocked out...that was a perfect article...

Is it true that the beta CS3 is stil 32-bit? Does anyone know if the 64-bit version will release with Leopard?

I was really surprised to learn that 32-bit was such a power limiting factor.I think I will wait for the 64 bit version of CS3 and use it with Leopard, with 8MB RAM in a 4 x 2GB chip conguration.

The only thing that still gives me pause is that the author of the article was presuposed a 32-bit system and used 300~400 MB files...since we are using multiple layers on 1GB+ files, it may be that going to 16GB RAM would actually yield a return in speed...

Any ideas?

Thanks,

John

[ninahagen]

I thought this was relevant to the OPs question, but I see it has veered away...sorry OP and thanks for the heads up...I am new here...could you just tell me where the "start a new thread" tab is?

[mfbernstein]

ninahagen: From the "Power Mac & Mac Pro" forum main page, click the "Post New Thread" button.

Now as to the original discussion (seems to be an 'ultimate machine' thread), I'm still curious what activities the OP plans on doing to stress out the machine. Yes, the MP can be upgraded to 32GB of RAM (although 4GB modules are now around $1500 a piece, so that'd be, oh, $12000). For disk performance, you'd still be better off with 4 750GB Seagate drives in RAID than 4 Raptors. Should make for some very fast (and loud) computing. Plus, you can already upgrade the processors to quad core ones (or just wait for Apple to release them in the next month or two).

8 2.66GHZ cores.
32GB RAM
a 3TB RAID array with 300MB/s sustained read and write performance.
2 X 30" ACD displays

Drool...

[brokenjago]

One note on monitors. Apple's have a 1 year warranty whereby Dell's are 3 years. I lost a 20 inch Apple monitor after 1 1/2 years and this really made me mad, hence we buy only Dells now (the monitors, not the craptastic computers). For the savings, and the warranty difference, I can ignore the DELL logo pretty easily.

Since the OP has pretty consistantly mentioned he's buying AppleCare for the Mac Pro, I'm just gonna reply to this by saying that if he buys them on the same invoice, they're both covered by Apple's 3 year warranty, so no problem there.

32GB RAM

Has this been confirmed as unofficially supported? Theoretically the Core (not 2) Duo MacBook Pros should be able to take up to 3 GB of RAM, but they have a firmware limit imposed on them. Does anyone know if this is the same for the Mac Pro?

[applgeek]

well, i can see that you are not much of a "power" user. An imac would be considerable for most consumers, but you want to go high end i see.

To save Money, Maybe you should get a mac pro with lower specs (you dont really need a 3 Ghz procesor, neither do you need the extra 600 bucks added to the bill. Thats two ipods, or a mac mini!) A 2.66 Machine with extra ram should be fine. If you ever need more than a few gigs, you can always get it cheaper in the future. i would recommend owc (macsales.com) for macpro ram, (lifetime warranty) but apple does just as well. apple ram has the warranty of the machine, 1 year standard or 3 years with applecare.

Hard drive space: How much hard drive space do you REALLY use? I have a 120 in my macbook and im using half. although that doesnt include FCP stuff, it still shows that most users dont need 3 terabites. if you get a stock 250 and an additional 500 from newegg, then you will have a backup and standard drive. Any future need could be bought then at a cheaper price.

Another note: Do you have kids? maybe a husband, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, ect? If so, Do you want them on YOUR computer? Maybe with the money you save, you can get a mini or imac, (if you need it.)

i can see there are people suggesting scsi cards and 1500 rpm drives. Well, i will say right now: YOU DONT NEED THAT, OR THE COST. You may want to get a WD Raptor 10,000 rpm drive, but im guessing you do not do heavy photoshop rendering of large file transfers that require that, so save Money. In the event that you ever find you need those, you can get them CHEAPER in the future.

For your question: A high end system is only recomended for someone with a large bank account and high needs. otherwise, it is a waste.

You noted in your intro that you are switching from a dell. Therein i recommend applecare. Apple can fulfil your questions and problems. People like downing applecare, but i have had experiences with applecare that make it worthwhile. Add in that you are kind of "new to the game" and you have a nice system that you plan on making last.

To go along with your high end streak, i would get the ati card. 2 nvidia cards would also be ideal.

Many note the 30 inch display. Well, i hope you like screens so big you are soaking in os x. I personally like 2 smaller screens, so i can see the ENTIRE SCREEN.I dont want to have to physically move my head just to look at the menubar. Dual 22's would be fine. Doesnt have to be apple either. Pick your favorite brand, or just get a cheap acer or samsung from newegg.

YOu dont need dual optical drives. Even so, they are a hundred bucks each!!!

Bluetooth is nice to have, especially if you have a phone that supports it. even if you dont, it's nice to have.

Oh yeah, if you save some money, you can get a laptop to go with the pro.

did i miss anything?

[brokenjago]

To go along with your high end streak, i would get the ati card. 2 nvidia cards would also be ideal.

And also not possible

YOu dont need dual optical drives. Even so, they are a hundred bucks each!!!

I find Dual Optical drives very, very useful.

[macgeek2005]

Originally Posted by brokenjago 

I find Dual Optical drives very, very useful.

Yeah, I do too. Dual Optical drives gives you room to breath, when it comes to discs and stuff. It's so satisfying and secure to have two drives.

[brokenjago]

It's so satisfying and secure to have two drives.

Must resist.

[rotuts]

A good 2d optical pioneer is only about $32 at new egg.

best advice: drop down from the 3gz and use that money for something else. an iTV? make sure you get the bluetooth.

I also got my first wireless keyboard with my MP very nice to have less wires on the desk.

I don't like thee apple mightymouse. I have a logitech wireless rechargable. they have bluetooth ones now, consider that.

still love my samsungs 24 and 21. they cost 1/2 now of what I paid. if you can wait a bit they will hve them very soon with the Blue-Ray gizzmo for watching HD or Blueray movies.

movies look much better on the Sam 24 than an HDTV!

if you live in the right place look into a Miglia miniHD over the air HDTV receiver. they make them now with both HD and analog (reg cable) in one box.

you would use a lot of HD space saving HDTV!

cheers

[funkdoobie]

So everyone seems to be bashing Apple RAM or the more expensive RAM for that matter. The mistake most professional users make is to buy a really nice comptuer with the latest and greatest of technology and then cheap out on the RAM. The ole saying of you get what you pay for applies to RAM. Your MacPro will utilize RAM in every thing you do and putting cheap Ramjet or Value RAM in your computer will do you no justice. There is a reason Apple's RAM is more expensive. RAM is everything to a computer and nothing can cause crazier issues with your computer than cheap RAM. Putting good RAM in your new MacPro will insure that you get the best experience in the long run. Oh, and if I didn't buy the RAM from Apple the only other place i would buy it from is crucial.com. They always seem to have upper tiered good quality RAM. just my 2 cents..enjoy that new beast

[rotuts]

Well look at my link to the *****fiinest***** RAM review. the problem is as we know, apple does not make its RAM, it just charges a little more for it as it is both a convenience for some an aapl is a company who wants to also make money

ask the shareholders.

it matters most if you max stress the RAM

it costs about $70 for those heat sinks. ( I figured it out once, but my memory might be faulty) get em if you need them, or not if you don't

no problems here with mine W/O, but go for them if you feel the need!

[brokenjago]

best advice: drop down from the 3gz and use that money for something else. an iTV? make sure you get the bluetooth.

Wha? Apple TV uses Wireless.

The mistake most professional users make is to buy a really nice comptuer with the latest and greatest of technology and then cheap out on the RAM. The ole saying of you get what you pay for applies to RAM.

You can buy the RAM from OWC who buys it from THE SAME people Apple do, with the SAME heatsinks apple has, and save about $1000 (One thousand dollars.) That's not cheaping out on RAM, that's not being stupid.

[applgeek]

Originally Posted by brokenjago 

And also not possibleI find Dual Optical drives very, very useful.

I respect your Dual optical drive thing, i would agree, although i think that varies on how much you deal with optical disks.

ALso NOT Possible? WTC? I am talking about two LOW END NVIDIA CARDS. I think the author does not need the high end one. But, you can add extra Nvidia cards (low end) for ~200 bucks each. Even so, this user would probably pitch for the ati card.

[brokenjago]

Oops! So sorry!

I thought you meant SLi. I could have sworn you said that.
Guess not.

My bad.

[applgeek]

no prob.

You have to really need the nvidia SLI card to be stupid enough to buy that!

No offense to people who stupidly bought that.

[brokenjago]

The ATi card would beat the crap out of two 7300s, by the way, as they don't work together when gaming, so you only get the performance of one.

[redesigner]

Well, when Sun's co-founder, and uber-genius Bill Joy retired from Sun, the first computer he bought for himself was a Mac G5 tower. I think he also got 8GBs of RAM, so that he could write software that did advanced simulations and he needed the keep all the data in RAM instead of loading it from disk.

So.. what are you doing with your Mac Pro?

[shinji]

Why does it have to be about what he needs? Maybe he just wants it and has the cash.

[UNTeMac]

<opinion on someone else's money>

Am I the only one who thinks it's dumb (and selfish) to spend ridiculous amounts of money on crap you won't even use?

If you're only doing basic web browsing, graphics, games, and no high end video editing...it's just dumb to want all that crap in your system that'll be obsolete in 2 years anyway. Half the money you spend on that system will just sit there on your desk.

Donate to charity if you have the cash to spare.

</opinion on someone else's money>

[shinji]

The 8 gb of RAM is the dumb part for what he plans to do, yeah. I've got 2 gb, 3 ghz Xeons, ATI X1900XT. But then, I would never buy an Apple TV or an iPhone. I don't really watch TV, and I would never use anything other than the free cell phone you get with wireless plans.

People have different priorities.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by UNTeMac 

Am I the only one who thinks it's dumb (and selfish) to spend ridiculous amounts of money on crap you won't even use?

What if it's just for pleasure? And if you have the money, why not? It's called hedonism. I buy many things I don't need just because they give me pleasure.

And just for the record, donating to charity and spending money aren't exclusive. They good perfectly well together.

[mac128k-1984]

If we only purchased items that we needed this country would be in a depression. Do we need a corvette, do we need a air conditioning in our cars, do we need a microwave because an oven can cook the food just fine albeit slower.

It's their money, let them spend it as they wish, I won't (and don't) worry about their financial situation as my own requires my full attention.

[UNTeMac]

I'm not obtuse. I'm well aware we all buy things we don't actually NEED every day but what I don't understand is extravagance for extravagance's sake. How can you enjoy something that you don't even use? That's like buying a 400hp car and always driving the speed limit. It just seems silly to me

(I don't mean to derail, just an observation)

[OS2Guy]

I own a new 3Ghz Mac Pro w/8GRam, 3TerabytesHD and a 30" Cinema and 2 SuperDrives and yes, it is very easy to fill up 3 terabytes with movie and other data - which is what I do. I make, edit and produce (mostly medical procedure) movies, videos, podcasts, tutorials, etc.. And 8GRam is just barely enough. I also have a LaCie external 600 Gig hard disk because I need the additional space.

So yea, fully loaded is quite sensible.

Tim...

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by ninahagen 

Hi everyone,
I have the last PowerMac quad-core, with 8MB of RAM...
— Even with all that RAM, it still takes 10-30 seconds to do an advanced Photoshop operation with a 1GB tif file...even more if there are layers. No complaints, that is fast, but as I move toward a higher volume images, I would like to minimize that processing time...
If 16GB would cut the time by 3%, it wouldn't be worth it, but by half it would be worth a lot over time...the graphic designer working for me makes around $15 an hour, so saving half the processing time means $7.50 an hour sound $3000 extra bucks for RAM would be paid back in 400 hours of work (about 2 months)...if it is 25% faster, then 4 months. Can anybody guess how much extra speed I will get?

My expectation is that although PSCS2 performance does improve at up to 8 GB RAM on a G5/OS 10.4, it won't improve all that much beyond 8 GB of RAM. After all PSCS itself is limited to accessing about 3 GB RAM (the added benefit as one goes up to 8 GB is the OS and PSCS interacting). In addition to 8 GB RAM being on board, what will matter a lot are the speeds of your hard drives setup, especially the scratch allocation, which needs to be on a separate fast hard drive physically not the same as the OS/app hard drive.

We don't know yet how PSCS3 and OS 10.5 will optimize on the new octo Mac Pros, but I am fairly certain that your described workflow will see improvement above 8 GB RAM.

Originally Posted by ninahagen 

...I also have just a fair vid card, a mid-grade Nvidia from 1 1/2 years ago...that might be affecting the speed of the current machine...which bring me to the next question. One very considerate respondent said that Quadro FX was not the fastest in all applications...really glad to know that...do you know which would be the fastest for hi-res photoshop work?

PSCS2 for sure, and I am told also PSCS3, only uses the graphics card for simple blitting, so better cards add negligible PSCS performance value on your G5/OS 10.4 box. However moving forward it is clear that Apple in its OS and in its apps (e.g. Aperture) will be heavily taking advantage of the power available from advanced graphics cards. Since the OS integrally supports PSCS3 I do believe that future OSs like OS 10.5 and beyond on new boxes may well show PS improvement when configured with better graphics cards like (today) the X1900 XT. However there certainly is no significant value to adding a very expensive Quadro FX when handling still images.

We must wait to see the new MPs to get specific (e.g. cpu and graphics changes will be major), but my guess is that if working 1 GB sized files in PSCS3 is your main usage then RAM, the highest end multiprocessor cpu option and RAID 0 hard drive configurations will be most relevant to optimizing your described workflow.

-Allen Wicks

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by UNTeMac 

Am I the only one who thinks it's dumb (and selfish) to spend ridiculous amounts of money on crap you won't even use?

If you're only doing basic web browsing, graphics, games, and no high end video editing...it's just dumb to want all that crap in your system that'll be obsolete in 2 years anyway. Half the money you spend on that system will just sit there on your desk.
Donate to charity if you have the cash to spare.

Sorry but your premise is false. For those of us who use our computers for real work, all by itself the word "graphics" above can take Mac computing needs to the maximum available. Just because some folks' computing needs are minimal does not mean that other folks (e.g. DSLR photographers, graphic designers, etc.) do not actually use their Macs for real production.

Simply capturing a few hundred RAW DSLR images and processing them in Aperture and Photoshop will use all the power of the best fully loaded Mac Pro towers made. Add multiple layers and/or film scans and such pro boxes are even more worked. When one works graphics professionally owning the higher end Mac boxes for relatively long life cycles turns out to be very cost effective. Properly configured high end boxes typically produce cost effectively for 3-5 years; it is only the cutesy low end boxes (e.g. most iMacs) that are obsolete in 2 years.

Modern two-dimensional still image graphics processing needs are at a very high level, similar (but different) to the needs of video processing. And note that DSLR image file sizes are always getting larger, not smaller. Anyone who may be handling image files in his/her future is very poorly served by recommendations to buy the low end.

-Allen Wicks

[UNTeMac]

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

Sorry but your premise is false. For those of us who use our computers for real work, all by itself the word "graphics" above can take Mac computing needs to the maximum available. Just because some folks' computing needs are minimal does not mean that other folks (e.g. DSLR photographers, graphic designers, etc.) do not actually use their Macs for real production.

Simply capturing a few hundred RAW DSLR images and processing them in Aperture and Photoshop will use all the power of the best fully loaded Mac Pro towers made. Add multiple layers and/or film scans and such pro boxes are even more worked. When one works graphics professionally owning the higher end Mac boxes for relatively long life cycles turns out to be very cost effective. Properly configured high end boxes typically produce cost effectively for 3-5 years; it is only the cutesy low end boxes (e.g. most iMacs) that are obsolete in 2 years.

Modern two-dimensional still image graphics processing needs are at a very high level, similar (but different) to the needs of video processing. And note that DSLR image file sizes are always getting larger, not smaller. Anyone who may be handling image files in his/her future is very poorly served by recommendations to buy the low end.

-Allen Wicks

Read my post carefully and also the rest of the thread. I'm not saying people shouldn't buy the best tools for the work they do. I know serious graphics work is very demanding hardware-wise. My point is that the original poster mentioned he only does basic computing/gaming yet he wants this monster of a system. Read first, then comment.