[Dace]

When is Apple going to update this app??? Isn't it part of the whole digital hub thing? Shouldn't it have been updated and packaged with iLife? How else are you going to see your iDVD movies? (don't answer this one, meant for emphasis) It's been years since it was last updated...hopefully the next update will feature DTS and Dolby Digital decoding. Anybody hear any rumors? Am I alone in wanting an update? Well, I said what I had to say...

I remember when I was critisized for wanting an Apple web browser...well look who was wrong, now you're all excited over Safari. I guess an Apple web browset wasn't such a bad idea.

[KidRed]

Originally posted by Dace:
When is Apple going to update this app??? Isn't it part of the whole digital hub thing? Shouldn't it have been updated and packaged with iLife? How else are you going to see your iDVD movies? (don't answer this one, meant for emphasis) It's been years since it was last updated...hopefully the next update will feature DTS and Dolby Digital decoding. Anybody hear any rumors? Am I alone in wanting an update? Well, I said what I had to say...

I remember when I was critisized for wanting an Apple web browser...well look who was wrong, now you're all excited over Safari. I guess an Apple web browset wasn't such a bad idea.

An Apple web browser? Are you fricking nuts! That will never happen because M$ would drop office in a second. Keep dreaming

[-Q-]

Heh. Yeah, an Apple web browser will never take off.

And you're not alone in waiting for an update. I'd like the option of saying, "no, I don't need DTS to watch this homemade movie, but just let me pop in the Matrix..."

Ah well. I guess until they include Dolby digital editing in iMovie there's just no need.

[cpac]

Couple thoughts:

(1) - I was one of those kids who argued Apple shouldn't come out with their own browser, and I stand by that argument still. In the alternative I argued that Apple should have bought OW (not Chimera) if they were going to come out with their own browser. They kind of took the middle road with the KHTML engine (less bloated than gecko, more complete than OW). I believe it remains to be seen whether Apple's decision to do this was a good idea or not.

but back on topic...

(2) - Can Apple's hardware (in terms of sound out, pixel resolution etc.) even handle the technologies you want implemented? Without a third party sound card? Without a Cinema HD display?

From my point of view the DVD player works quite well and I personally would rather Apple spent the time elsewhere.

[codywalton]

i have no problems with the apple dvd player. I use it almost everyday to watch movies at work on my powerbook.

i have no need for DTS, THX, or any other super-audio format since I only have 2 speakers. Most folks dont have a 5.1 or more system on their mac's. it would be a bit of overkill IMHO. and right now it works fine. the only thing i think should be added would be more compatability with the "Windows-only" DVD-ROM features on some discs.

[gorickey]

Originally posted by codywalton:
i have no problems with the apple dvd player. I use it almost everyday to watch movies at work on my powerbook.

Wow...you get alot done, eh?

[bradoesch]

Originally posted by codywalton:
the only thing i think should be added would be more compatability with the "Windows-only" DVD-ROM features on some discs.

Aren't some of these Windows-only features actually Windows programs?

[codywalton]

Originally posted by bradoesch:
Aren't some of these Windows-only features actually Windows programs?

some are, some arent. there are lots of ways to program things on a DVD. for example, when the starwars DVD's were released, you could only access the special content (dvd.starwars.com) through the special Win DVD player included on the disc. eventually they made the dvd.starwars.com site mac compatable through a regular browser as long as you had the disc in your machine.

Wow...you get alot done, eh?[/B]

actually yeah. I'm lucky enough to have a pretty laid back job. I have to use a Dell for a lot of the Director Lingo, but I bring my PB and set it up right next to it, so I've got the best of both worlds.

[mitchell_pgh]

There comes a point where Apple must make hard decisions.

How many Macintosh users really would use 5.1 sound in DVD Player.

It would have be be in the low low 3% range... if that.

The fact is, DVD Player will not be as good as a stand alone DVD Player any time soon. I would say never, but someday they will be integrated, but until that point in time, it's not going to happen. Anyone that is a sound/video nut has a higher end DVD player and a tuner to match (along with nice or OK-ish speakers)

You also need to consider "the weakest link" in your audio system. If you are watching a DVD on your computer, is it the very low end DVD player, the software encoder, the cheap internal connectors... The quality is LOW..

That being said, I would LOVE to see a Dolby Digital option supported by OS X (Build to order $200 card or something). A nice and perfect digital fiber audio channel would be great. Plug it directly into my stereo.

But you wouldn't get any better quality out of your MP3s or DVDs...

Again, many people are still trying to get their MP3s onto their home stereo...

[clarkgoble]

While few need 5.1 sound now it is becoming more and more common. If Apple wants the Mac to be a digital hub it will have to have dolby digital eventually. On the PC even games support 5.1 sound now. The Mac is behind the curve here.

Having said that if you go to the peripheral forum you'll see some discussions on this. There are 3rd party 5.1 cards. You have to use VLC to play the DVDs. But that application is improving every day. It still won't play a lot of DiVX movies that MPlayer does. But it is, in certain ways, a better DVD player than Apple's. (In other ways it is far worse)

Apple is focusing on sound more. I would strongly feel that its sound libraries will be considerably updated by 10.3 and will include a new DVD player.

[cpac]

Originally posted by clarkgoble:
While few need 5.1 sound now it is becoming more and more common. If Apple wants the Mac to be a digital hub it will have to have dolby digital eventually. On the PC even games support 5.1 sound now. The Mac is behind the curve here.

Isn't this really a matter of hardware and not software?

I mean honestly - short of buying a third party sound card, no Mac could do the necessary sound out.

The need for support is not coming anytime soon either. How many consumers actually hook up their computers to 5 speakers? How many gamers/DVD enthusiasts that care about sound/gaming enough to care about 5.1 support use Macs? (rather than a DVD player/amp for DVD viewing, or a game system/PC for gaming?)

Basically this should be WAY down on the list for Apple.

[CheesePuff]

I just use my Klipsch ProMedia 5.1 set connected to my M-Audio Revolution 7.1 PCI card and using VLC player for 5.1 output.

[JB72]

DD 5.1 and DTS. If you build it they will come

[Anomalous]

It would be cool if it had the ability to select specific titles on the DVD (although you can currently add this ability with DVDNavigator). Maybe also if the remote had a way to enter the number buttons, that would be nice.

[gizzard]

This is stupid.

Of course Mac users aren't hooking up 5.1 system to their Macs. We don't have the technology yet! And just because a couple of people say "it's unnecessary" or "buy a set top DVD player" doesn't mean we don't need to have.

Once Apple incorporates DD/DTS decoding, or even the ability to output the AC3 stream, Mac users will start adding the necessary components to turn their computers into a mini-home theater system. And once there is a 3D/surround sound API, gamers will follow suit.

You buy the $2000 Power Mac G4, you buy the $1300 20" ACD. $100 for a M-Audio Revolution and $300 for a nice 5.1 sound system/decoder won't be adding much to the overall cost.

So don't say we don't need it just because we don't have it.

[gizzard]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
How many Macintosh users really would use 5.1 sound in DVD Player.

It would have be be in the low low 3% range... if that.

Prove it.

I'll save you the time, you can't.

The fact is, DVD Player will not be as good as a stand alone DVD Player any time soon. I would say never, but someday they will be integrated, but until that point in time, it's not going to happen. Anyone that is a sound/video nut has a higher end DVD player and a tuner to match (along with nice or OK-ish speakers)

Why bring the "sound/video nut" into this discussion? They have no relevance here. We are talking about adding entertainment value to our Macs for a few hundred bucks, not the prospect of hooking up a $500 receiver and $5000 speakers.

But you're right, the DVD Player will never be as good as a set top DVD player. But really, it comes with the cost of my Mac, so it doesn't matter. And maybe if Apple started taking advantage of the hardware features on modern video cards, it would look as good. I take it you've never seen the picture quality on WinDVD or ATI's PC DVD quality. It is miles better than Apple's.

You also need to consider "the weakest link" in your audio system. If you are watching a DVD on your computer, is it the very low end DVD player, the software encoder, the cheap internal connectors... The quality is LOW..

Cheap internal connectors? Wha??

If you are using a M-Audio Sonica or Revolution, the AC-3 stream is passed digitally to your decoder, which is coverted to an analog stream and sent to the 6 channels. I guess if you are using a CRT, the picture isn't digital, but I certainly wouldn't characterize those components as "cheap" or "low quality".

That being said, I would LOVE to see a Dolby Digital option supported by OS X (Build to order $200 card or something). A nice and perfect digital fiber audio channel would be great. Plug it directly into my stereo.

$200 for a card? The Revolution and Sonica only cost $100 each. Apple can add the DD/DTS decoding in software.

But you wouldn't get any better quality out of your MP3s or DVDs...

I take it you've never heard TruSurround XT or Circle Surround II.

[CheesePuff]

Yeah it's not $200.

If you have a PCI slot then its $99 for the Revolution 7.1 card, with OS X drivers and the VLC DVD Player for 7.1 output.

If you only have a USB port then you can use the new Sonica Theatre which is $100 as well and has 7.1 output.

[TheMosco]

I have a regular Sonica connected to my receiver through an optical cable. Even listening to mp3s, there is a huge difference in sound quality between the headphone jack on the computer and the optical out on the sonica. Add in TruSurround and it sounds even better.

[Dace]

I'm glad my post has received much attention. Like it's already been said, Apple provided us with a DVD player...they might as well improve it. Windoze machines are already light years ahead of us. I'm not a sound/video nut, but I'd like to have the option of playing my movies in 5.1 surround along with all the bells and whistles. On the other hand, my Mac is located in my bedroom...there's no space (or money) to place a HDTV, receiver and huge speakers. I'd like to have the same number of choices available to me as PC users. They have great sound cards, great speakers and great DVD players; all for competitive prices that are cheaper than getting a receiver, stand alone DVD player and speakers. I hope Apple brings us great sound soon.

[clarkgoble]

Isn't this really a matter of hardware and not software? I mean honestly - short of buying a third party sound card, no Mac could do the necessary sound out.

To a degree this is the case. However I think that if more applications supported 5.1 sound that more people would purchase the hardware. Heavens, I probably would. I admit that I download 24 and Alias episodes off USENET and would at least like to have surround sound. Now that VLC is improving I've thought about it.

Having said that though, you are right. There is a bit of a chicken and egg problem here. I'm not a big gamer, so that is less of an issue for me. I suspect that over in the gamer forum more people would like 5.1 sound. It really does make a big difference. I know the surround sound in my XBox really adds to the enjoyment of Halo. The only Mac game I have is Galactic Battlegrounds. But sound really does make a big difference. Having good sound would probably entice a few more home users.

The need for support is not coming anytime soon either. How many consumers actually hook up their computers to 5 speakers?

Right now, not that many. However I'd point out that Microsoft's recent strategy is to have software that is a digital hub. You use your PC as a VPR ala ReplayTV, you use it to play MP3s, and you use it to play AVIs and DVDs. Thus you'd end up with a scenario where you have your amp that supports 5.1 sound, a TV, and a PC which is a digital hub.

http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1766

Sound familiar? Yeah, Apple wants to be the digital hub also. According to a recent interview with the folks who make the 5.1 card, Apple is making sound a focus and is upgrading the sound support in OSX.

http://www.insidemacgames.com/features/view.php?ID=200

Some might dismiss this as only of interest to gamers. (Everyone is dismissive of things that don't matter to them) However many sound engineers would appreciate easier support in the OS for sound that would make sound apps perform better.

Remember that Apple purchased one of the big boys in the sound studio software industry. So they have the technology to add some cool crap to the OS. Just as having Final Cut Pro led to the technology "trickling down" to regular users, I expect we'll see things happening here.

How many gamers/DVD enthusiasts that care about sound/gaming enough to care about 5.1 support use Macs?

Unless people have the opportunity, who can say? Do you view videos on your Mac? I do. Fairly regularly. Would you like to have PVR features as part of your Mac? I would - I look lustingly at those HDTV cards for PCs. I'd love to have one of those and save the feeds on my Mac for later editing/compression.

Pretty much the next wave is that everything you've been doing with MP3's is going to start applying to video. Hollywood knows this and is afraid of it. But Apple knows this as much as Microsoft/Intel does. If you look around there is already a lot of technology to do this. As I said, I download 24 and Alias weekly. I've downloaded my fair share of movies. It isn't as convenient as MP3s due to the file size, but pretty much the Napster revolution is coming to video. 5.1 sound is, as anyone with a nice DVD player knows, necessary for the full experience. . .

[Nathan Adams]

I'm personally rather happy with the DVD Player as is, but there are improvements that could be made

1. yes, 5.1 sound - it's a given
2. get rid of region checking. many countries are ditching it (like here in Aus. most standalone dvd players are multiregion here now, even if it isn't advertised).
3. better (and smoother) scanning. compared to a stand alone player, it's much to jumpy when scanning.
4. VCD support. If they're not going to do it with QT, at least get it working in DVD Player

[Diggory Laycock]

Originally posted by Nathan Adams:
I'm personally rather happy with the DVD Player as is, but there are improvements that could be made

...
2. get rid of region checking. many countries are ditching it (like here in Aus. most standalone dvd players are multiregion here now, even if it isn't advertised).

I'll second that - My Mother just bought an �80 cheapo Philips DVD player - It turns out that you can make it permanently region free just by pressing 0 four times on the remote while the tray is open.

Philips was one of the companies that developed DVD - if they make it this easy to go multi-region, then I don't see why apple makes it so hard.

Especially since powerbook users are likely to be travelling between regions.

[cybernezumi]

Yeah, 5.1 should be there -- good grief my friend's Dell has a digital out, why not my PB? And that's useful for more than just 5.1, it gives cleaner sound overall.

Other thing I'd love to see in the DVD player is some deinterlacing options to improve the video.

[a holck]

1) DVD Region check is done by the firmware in the DVD drive NOT in the player app.

2) It would be VERY easy to implement Dolby Digital out for Apple. all thay would need to do was to pass the already un-multiplexed DD encoded audiodata to coreaudio.
Right now the DVD player actually contains a software Dolby Digital decoder that downmixes its output into a prologic (2 channel matrixed surround) audio stream. This is WAY more advanced than just parsing the existing DD stream out to an S/Pdif or TOSLINK adaptor. So it would be VERY easy to implement IF they wanted to.

3) The Dolby Digital stream is about 384 K/bit. USB handles 11 M/bit, so a cheap USB > S/P DIF (electric) or TOSLINK (optical) could handle the signal. And it wouldnt need a driver cause USB audio is built into OSX.

[Dace]

Originally posted by a holck:
1) DVD Region check is done by the firmware in the DVD drive NOT in the player app.

There are already several hacks out there that can make your drive region free

[clarkgoble]

Philips was one of the companies that developed DVD - if they make it this easy to go multi-region, then I don't see why apple makes it so hard.

I think Phillips is in a slightly different position because they did develop DVD. Unless I am mistaken, Apple has to license a lot of stuff to provide a DVD player. Part of that requires the region stuff. I think that opensource DVD players like VLC simply slide under the radar. If they got bigger that wouldn't be true anymore. Everyone hates the regions. Especially when the same movie gets such different treatment in different regions. I may be off on some of this, but that's how I recall things.

I suspect Apple doesn't want to rock the boat too much, given the various RIAA issues going on. (Not to mention the issue of the iPod and P2P)

I think it is inevitable that the marketing and distribution of music and movies will have to radically change. I say that simply because many of the same multinationals that make money from media make more money from computers and electronic equipment. Take Sony, for instance. On Slashdot someone noted that they make 10x as much money marketing to people who will pirate music as they do from their recording division. Now once you include Sony's film division that obviously changes. But even so, there is a bit of an internal issue with many companies. Then there are politics. For instance Microsoft is trying to use Digital Rights Management to corner the home entertainment market. However that then pits Microsoft directly with some other companies who make money selling DVD players and the like. So there is a lot more going on than meets the eye. Apple is a bit player in all this. They'll innovate where they can, but have to be realistic as well.

[dfiler]

As LCD projectors drop in price relative to big screen TVs, we'll see many more people using computers in their home theaters. My projector is capable of 1026x768 non-interlaced display wen fed an XGA signal. It also has composite and S-video input but no component input. Thus, a computer is the only way to get full DVD resolution. Otherwise, i'm limited to480 interlaced lines.

Currently I have the choice of low res video with 7.1 sound high res video with dolby pro logic II sound. (using the apple dvd player)

[Nathan Adams]

well, then - start including region free drives then. I can sort of understand on the desktop macs, but having regions on iBooks and PowerBooks is rediculous.
As I said with australia, nearly all new dvd players now are multiregion. Even our bottom of the range sony deck (which was advertised as region 4 only) plays multiregion without the slightest hint of hassle. At lease Apple could release multi-region drives in countries in this situation

(by the way, the reason why this is happening in Aus is after the ACCC [consumer watchdog] got bitchy about the fact that region encoding meant we missed out on alot. Being a small region, many smaller films, and art films are not seen as a viable release, and region coding meant that importing is not an option either. It was this that prompted the ACCC to press the issue with manufacturers releasing dvd players here)

[mrwalker]

Is there any way to streach the picture with the current DVD player, so that 16:9 movies which have black bars at the top & bottom actually fill a widescreen display?

-mrwalker

[dfiler]

Originally posted by mrwalker:
Is there any way to streach the picture with the current DVD player, so that 16:9 movies which have black bars at the top & bottom actually fill a widescreen display?
-mrwalker

With what kind of video output to what type of display device?

[mrwalker]

Originally posted by dfiler:
With what kind of video output to what type of display device?

I'm watching DVDs played using Apple DVD player 3.2 on a Cinema Display 20" using an ATI Radeon 9000 in a cube. I get the same problem with my 667 DVI Powerbook.

The DVDs themselves have back bars at the top and bottom of the picture, so that the 16:9 widescreen is in the middle of a 4:3 picture with black bars. The DVD player streaches the picture to fit vertically, and then adds its own black bars to the left & right.

Ideally, I would like to streach the picture so that it fills the screen horizontally and the black bars disappear (partly) off the top & bottom.

Hope you catch my drift...

-mrwalker

[dfiler]

Originally posted by mrwalker:
I'm watching DVDs played using Apple DVD player 3.2 on a Cinema Display 20" using an ATI Radeon 9000 in a cube. I get the same problem with my 667 DVI Powerbook.

The DVDs themselves have back bars at the top and bottom of the picture, so that the 16:9 widescreen is in the middle of a 4:3 picture with black bars. The DVD player streaches the picture to fit vertically, and then adds its own black bars to the left & right.

Ideally, I would like to streach the picture so that it fills the screen horizontally and the black bars disappear (partly) off the top & bottom.

Hope you catch my drift...

-mrwalker

I'm not entirely sure what you are asking but will attempt to help anyway

Most DVDs are recorded with anamorphic widescreen. They're recorded at a 4:3 ratio no matter the ratio of the video contents of the disc. For movies, this means that either the DVD player or the display device must re-letterbox the picture. Apple's displays, and most VGA or DVI computer monitors in general, have no aspect ratio controls. This means that aspect control must happen from within Apple's DVD player software (or a 3rd party player). Currently, it doesn't offer such functionality.

I use an external scan converter to watch movies in my computer room. This small box converts VGA to Svideo for use with my television. S-Video is an interlaced signal with 480 lines of resolution, yet my TV is capable of displaying many, many more lines. Since Apple's DVD player outputs widescreen formats with top and bottom black-matting bars, many of these 480 lines are wasted on pixels which are always black. Instead, I'd rather output the pure anamorphic signal and have my display device handle the 16:9 conversion. It would display exactly the same but with higher resolution.

Keep in mind that everything I described above is based on my observations in NTSC land. However, I think they hold true for PAL parts of the world as well.

I suspect that there is no way for you to get apple's dvd player to display any differently than what you are currently seeing. Is your picture squished or streched? I was under the impression that in order to alleviate aspect ratio headaches, Apple had chosen to limit the player's flexibility. Video should (should that is ) display at its native aspect ratio, forcing viewers to live with black bars on formats which don't match your screen's aspect ratio.

[geekwagon]

Originally posted by mrwalker:
Ideally, I would like to streach the picture so that it fills the screen horizontally and the black bars disappear (partly) off the top & bottom.

I've never seen a way of eliminating the black bars, but that isn't a problem on all disks. If the disk has been mastered to be "anamorphic" then you will get the results that you want. Most widescreen movies these days are finally being released anamorphically, thankfully. Those of us with widescreen TVs were getting pretty sick of the bars

[dfiler]

Heheh... if it makes you feel any better...

The pentagon uses widescreen plasma displays for its press conferences...

Billions and billions of dollars and still... the accompaning slides and video are squished!

[coolmacdude]

DVD Player does this automatically, for anamorphic DVDs. On my Tibook the picture stretches to the edges of the screen and increases to the appropriate height with black bars filling the rest of the horizontal. If you are seeing the picture centered in a 4x3 space with vertical bars then you are using standard letterbox and not anamorphic DVDs. (Letterbox format can't be converted like this for whatever reason.)

[coolmacdude]

Billions? You can buy a widescreen plasma for about $5000.

[CheesePuff]

Originally posted by dfiler:
Heheh... if it makes you feel any better...

The pentagon uses widescreen plasma displays for its press conferences...

Billions and billions of dollars and still... the accompaning slides and video are squished!

But at least when they are done using them, we can buy the sand-filled Plasma's for 70% off!

[CheesePuff]

Originally posted by coolmacdude:
Billions? You can buy a widescreen plasma for about $5000.

Maybe the Goverment wants a 64" for $10,999 and considering how many they have... But yes, it would be more like millions not billions.

[dfiler]

Sheesh!

'billions and billions' = pentagon's budget.
Obviously, right?

But feel free to debate whether a plasma display costs billions of dollars... that'll get you somewhere.

[mrwalker]

..er, back on topic a bit..

Originally posted by coolmacdude:
DVD Player does this automatically, for anamorphic DVDs. On my Tibook the picture stretches to the edges of the screen and increases to the appropriate height with black bars filling the rest of the horizontal. If you are seeing the picture centered in a 4x3 space with vertical bars then you are using standard letterbox and not anamorphic DVDs. (Letterbox format can't be converted like this for whatever reason.)

Yes, it does this for me too. I'm talking about the cheap DVDs I have which aren't anamorphic. Some widescreen TVs give you the option to streach the picture so that it uses the maximum horizontal size rather than the vertical.

I take it there's nothing anyone knows of on the mac to do this then? Perhaps those VLC guys'll impliment it if I ask nicely.

-mrwalker

[SOLIDAge]

it would be nice if DVD Player 4 did VCDs...

[Uncle Skeleton]

you can zoom in on the picture with the Universal Access options. you just have to leave your mouse in the center of the screen and then wait until it goes away

[mrwalker]

Originally posted by Uncle Skeleton:
you can zoom in on the picture with the Universal Access options. you just have to leave your mouse in the center of the screen and then wait until it goes away

Wow! That's the sort of answer I was looking for, and possibly one of the best tricks you can do with a desktop I've ever seen, thanks!

-mrwalker

[coolmacdude]

I agree. I had never thought of using that. It's almost as good as having it do that automatically. There is a slight video stutter occasionally but otherwise it looks great.

[qnxde]

Originally posted by mrwalker:
I'm watching DVDs played using Apple DVD player 3.2 on a Cinema Display 20" using an ATI Radeon 9000 in a cube. I get the same problem with my 667 DVI Powerbook.

The DVDs themselves have back bars at the top and bottom of the picture, so that the 16:9 widescreen is in the middle of a 4:3 picture with black bars. The DVD player streaches the picture to fit vertically, and then adds its own black bars to the left & right.

Ideally, I would like to streach the picture so that it fills the screen horizontally and the black bars disappear (partly) off the top & bottom.

Hope you catch my drift...

-mrwalker

Yeah I know what you're talking about, with the DVD's encoded with the black bars in there, eech. All I can think of, is try enabling the zooming function in Universal Access and zoom in until it fills the screen properly.

Also: I'll be happy with Apple DVD Player as soon as they add deinterlacing. My Kath & Kim and Absolutlely Fabulous DVD's look terrible on it! (Or any TV transfer, for that matter)