[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Ya ya... It's just an economy and filter by some grey haired dork. I hate to sound negative, and I know I am, but it's true. Those taped conversations sound so canned and indifferent. I think Walt Mossberg would have been the guy to write Jobs' biography. I get the impression that Jobs didn't feel close to Isaacson like some other people in his life. Isaacson... I'm not too interested in his take on Jobs.

Man, talk about seeing what you want to see. Isaacson is a great biographer, and if he did a terrible job that failure would be on – Jobs, who hand picked him to write it. I'll bet those conversation aren't canned and indifferent; If they are then I guess Jobs just didn't care about properly communicating with the guy he picked to write his biography.

I won't speak if Jobs felt close to Isaacson, but it's utterly irrelevant. Isaacson was there to do a job, not be his friend.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Man, talk about seeing what you want to see. Isaacson is a great biographer, and if he did a terrible job that failure would be on – Jobs, who hand picked him to write it. I'll bet those conversation aren't canned and indifferent; If they are then I guess Jobs just didn't care about properly communicating with the guy he picked to write his biography.

I won't speak if Jobs felt close to Isaacson, but it's utterly irrelevant. Isaacson was there to do a job, not be his friend.

That's your perspective. The "there to do a job BS"... like make money. I want the person closest to Jobs to tell all, not some writer with this "job" layer in between. I think Mossberg would have been better.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by freudling 

That's your perspective. The "there to do a job BS"... like make money.

Yeah, Isaacson wanted the money so bad he kept turning him down. I'm sure Mossberg would have done it gratis, though.

Originally Posted by freudling 

I want the person closest to Jobs to tell all, not some writer with this "job" layer in between. I think Mossberg would have been better.

You want a slanted, subjective love-fest. That's utterly worthless.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by freudling 

That's your perspective. The "there to do a job BS"... like make money. I want the person closest to Jobs to tell all, not some writer with this "job" layer in between. I think Mossberg would have been better.

Okay, but that's kind of your gut feeling. I agree with Dakar, the hand picked neutral guy > a long time friend of Jobs'.

[Tiresias]

The best of men is but a man at best.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Tiresias 

The best of men is but a man at best.

Except for me, I'm a God.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Man, talk about seeing what you want to see. Isaacson is a great biographer, and if he did a terrible job that failure would be on – Jobs, who hand picked him to write it. I'll bet those conversation aren't canned and indifferent; If they are then I guess Jobs just didn't care about properly communicating with the guy he picked to write his biography.

I won't speak if Jobs felt close to Isaacson, but it's utterly irrelevant. Isaacson was there to do a job, not be his friend.

Absolutely right. It also sounds like since 2004 Isaacson was Jobs' only choice to write the biography. Isaacson turned him down initially in 2004 and it sounds like more than once after that, saying that he thought it was too early by a decade or two to write a biography because Jobs wasn't close to retirement. By 2009 when Isaacson finally accepted after Jobs' wife personally asked him to do it, it was clear that Isaacson was the only one Jobs wanted - if not a different writer would have been selected years before. I also don't know what freudling is talking about regarding the audio interviews; SJ sounds very engaged and happy to be talking about things in them.

I got the book yesterday and only read a few pages before leaving it for my mom to see, but it seems comprehensive and well written. I don't get where freudling is coming from at all on this one.

As for the criticism that the book or Isaacson himself make SJ look like a pig, or an egomaniac, or similar adjectives, yeah that's true to an extent. Jobs was abrasive, immature and didn't bathe all that often in his younger years, in addition to being a genius. While he grew up, became a better manager and a better human being in many respects later on, there were still less than admirable qualities about him in addition to his superb attributes that would always be a part of his persona. And he wanted the world to see the real person he was with this biography, not some false, mythic, deified Jobs.

[ort888]

I think Mossberg (like most members of the media) was nothing more then a useful tool to Jobs.

Fruedling seems a lot like Jobs. His opinions are strong, odd and all over the place.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Absolutely right. It also sounds like since 2004 Isaacson was Jobs' only choice to write the biography. Isaacson turned him down initially, saying that he thought it was too early by a decade or two to write a biography because Jobs wasn't close to retirement. By 2009 when Isaacson finally accepted after Jobs' wife personally asked him to do it, it was clear that Isaacson was the only one Jobs wanted - if not a different writer would have been selected years before. I also don't know what freudling is talking about regarding the audio interviews; SJ sounds very engaged and happy to be talking about things in them.

I got the book yesterday and only read a few pages before leaving it for my mom to see, but it seems comprehensive and well written. I don't get where freudling is coming from at all on this one.

Did your Mom like the book?

You haven't been terribly forthcoming with us to let us know that you even have a Mom... I'd like to know more.

[ort888]

I wonder if the book would be that interesting to someone who wasn't a tech geek.

I'm finding it enthralling, but I wonder if someone with a passing interest would be able to slog through all this detailed accounting of computer history.

I can't wait to get to the stuff that covers the last 15 years or so, because that's when I've been really into the whole "mac scene" or whatever. If they go into as much detail about that era as they have about the first half of his career, It's going to be very interesting to get some inside info.

Right now I'm in the middle of the NeXT era, which is the least interesting to me (yet is still very captivating).

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Except for me, I'm a God.

Nietzsche once asked, "Is God man's mistake, or man God's mistake."

It all makes sense now.

Thank you besson3c.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by ort888 

I think Mossberg (like most members of the media) was nothing more then a useful tool to Jobs.

Fruedling seems a lot like Jobs. His opinions are strong, odd and all over the place.

I think you're off the mark. You should read some stuff if you haven't about the behind the scenes stuff between Mossberg and Jobs. I think Mossberg was one of the few guys Jobs actually respected, and almost looked to as a father figure.

Jobs makes references to Mossberg, both implicit, and implicit, in several Keynotes. Like one where he said Mossberg praised a device: "a review from a guy really tough to please"... paraphrasing here. Or how he talked about what he said being "code for $999" regarding the price of the iPad, in reference to something Mossberg said.

Then, how Jobs acquiesced to Mossberg about "no slides" during an interview on AllThingsD. Like Jobs sort of looked at him and said, "Ok, no problem". He kind of listened to Mossberg in such a way that he had respect for him.

Then the long walks they took together, the fact that Mossberg has been a journalist and tech writer for years... he might have been a good person to write Jobs' biography.

http://allthingsd.com/20111005/the-steve-jobs-i-knew/

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by freudling 

I think you're off the mark. You should read some stuff if you haven't about the behind the scenes stuff between Mossberg and Jobs. I think Mossberg was one of the few guys Jobs actually respected, and almost looked to as a father figure.

Jobs makes references to Mossberg, both implicit, and implicit, in several Keynotes. Like one where he said Mossberg praised a device: "a review from a guy really tough to please"... paraphrasing here. Or how he talked about what he said being "code for $999" regarding the price of the iPad, in reference to something Mossberg said.

Then, how Jobs acquiesced to Mossberg about "no slides" during an interview on AllThingsD. Like Jobs sort of looked at him and said, "Ok, no problem". He kind of listened to Mossberg in such a way that he had respect for him.

Then the long walks they took together, the fact that Mossberg has been a journalist and tech writer for years... he might have been a good person to write Jobs' biography.

The Steve Jobs I Knew - Walt Mossberg - Mossblog - AllThingsD

I think you're really projecting a whole lot here and making a whole lot of assumptions that you aren't equipped to make. None of us are.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I think you're really projecting a whole lot here and making a whole lot of assumptions that you aren't equipped to make. None of us are.

You love to argue don't you?

The point is that I think Mossberg could have been a good option to write Steve Jobs' biography for a variety of demonstrated reasons. Period.

If you don't agree, ok, we get it.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by freudling 

You love to argue don't you?

Irony.

Originally Posted by freudling 

Period.

Catchphrase! We should make this a drinking game.

Originally Posted by freudling 

If you don't agree, ok, we get it.

Irony x2.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by freudling 

You love to argue don't you?

The point is that I think Mossberg could have been a good option to write Steve Jobs' biography for a variety of demonstrated reasons. Period.

If you don't agree, ok, we get it.

I dislike flimsy arguments more than I like arguing.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I dislike flimsy arguments more than I like arguing.

Which is exactly my point. You mention the word "argument" as you look at this as an argument. A "flimsy argument".

It's absurd. There is no reason to discount the proposition as "flimsy" or "foolish" Walt Mossberg being an example of someone who would be a good candidate to write Steve Jobs' Bio.

As for my opinion of Isaacson, that's my opinion. It's not an argument. My opinion won't change because you might believe something that conflicts with it. But you'll keep coming back here over, and over, and over, and over... with the same combative approach.

And if it's really "flimsy", support the proposition that Walt Mossberg is not a good candidate to write Steve Jobs' bio. I don't care about Issaacson.

[ort888]

But who better then Jobs to pick who would write his own story? Your line of thinking makes no sense.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by freudling 

As for my opinion of Isaacson, that's my opinion. It's not an argument. My opinion won't change because you might believe something that conflicts with it.

Believe? I presented a few facts about his hiring. If they don't change your view of the guy, that's more on you than the rest of us.

Originally Posted by freudling 

And if it's really "flimsy", support the proposition that Walt Mossberg is not a good candidate to write Steve Jobs' bio. I don't care about Issaacson.

We don't care about Mossberg. But I already noted what he'd deliver above.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Which is exactly my point. You mention the word "argument" as you look at this as an argument. A "flimsy argument".

An argument can also mean a rationale for a point you are trying to make.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

An argument can also mean a rationale for a point you are trying to make.

Here we go. The same old garbage on here. Argue until you get blue in the face. Derail threads.

We get it. We get your position.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Derail threads.

It's his thread. It's about Steve Jobs, not who should have written his bio. You're the one who brought up the derailing tangent.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Believe? I presented a few facts about his hiring. If they don't change your view of the guy, that's more on you than the rest of us.


We don't care about Mossberg. But I already noted what he'd deliver above.

When I say "pigeon holing everything", what are some of the things that come to your mind? In another thread...

Back on track. No more derailing threads.

Was Steve Jobs a d-bag? Yes, he was, and no, he wasn't. He could be a son of a bitch, and he could be warm and friendly, caring. He was immature and relentless, which enabled him to have the kind of curiosity and motivation to succeed in what he did.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

It's his thread. It's about Steve Jobs, not who should have written his bio. You're the one who brought up the derailing tangent.

And you're the one going on about it.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by freudling 

And you're the one going on about it.

Try again.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Here we go. The same old garbage on here. Argue until you get blue in the face. Derail threads.

We get it. We get your position.

I'm thoroughly confused as to what you are getting upset about.

You made points with arguments I saw as flimsy, I said as much, now I'm being confused as putting out garbage? Normally when people say things you disagree with you have the opportunity to express this, and you have the opportunity to defend your position. If you don't want to defend your position, that is an option you have. I realize that sometimes feeling like you have to defend every little thing can get tiresome, but you could also just say that we disagree and leave it at that, no big deal.

Instead, all of this. If you don't want "garbage" don't create garbage.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Try again.

Try again.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I'm thoroughly confused as to what you are getting upset about.

You made points with arguments I saw as flimsy, I said as much, now I'm being confused as putting out garbage? Normally when people say things you disagree with you have the opportunity to express this, and you have the opportunity to defend your position. If you don't want to defend your position, that is an option you have. I realize that sometimes feeling like you have to defend every little thing can get tiresome, but you could also just say that we disagree and leave it at that, no big deal.

Instead, all of this. If you don't want "garbage" don't create garbage.

Show us what's flimsy about the proposition of Walt Mossberg being a good candidate to write Steve Jobs' bio. Period.

And do it in another thread.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Try again.

Oh, so we've come to the portion of thread where you've painted yourself so far into the corner that you just repeat the last post directed at you like a four year-old?

We should take shots for that, too.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Show us what's flimsy about the proposition of Walt Mossberg being a good candidate to write Steve Jobs' bio. Period.

And do it in another thread.

That was not what I said was flimsy, was it? Here's a recap:

I think you're really projecting a whole lot here and making a whole lot of assumptions that you aren't equipped to make. None of us are.

This was in response to:

I think you're off the mark. You should read some stuff if you haven't about the behind the scenes stuff between Mossberg and Jobs. I think Mossberg was one of the few guys Jobs actually respected, and almost looked to as a father figure.

Jobs makes references to Mossberg, both implicit, and implicit, in several Keynotes. Like one where he said Mossberg praised a device: "a review from a guy really tough to please"... paraphrasing here. Or how he talked about what he said being "code for $999" regarding the price of the iPad, in reference to something Mossberg said.

Then, how Jobs acquiesced to Mossberg about "no slides" during an interview on AllThingsD. Like Jobs sort of looked at him and said, "Ok, no problem". He kind of listened to Mossberg in such a way that he had respect for him.

Then the long walks they took together, the fact that Mossberg has been a journalist and tech writer for years... he might have been a good person to write Jobs' biography.

You don't know that Jobs saw Mossberg as a father figure, and none of the examples you provided proves anything about anything, sorry.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

That was not what I said was flimsy, was it? Here's a recap:



This was in response to:



You don't know that Jobs saw Mossberg as a father figure, and none of the examples you provided proves anything about anything, sorry.

Why doesn't it prove anything about anything?

I think I know the answer here. All you want to do is argue with people. You'll keep coming back here, over and over... but you won't really say anything.

I'm not calling you one, but you fit the profile of a troll.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Oh, so we've come to the portion of thread where you've painted yourself so far into the corner that you just repeat the last post directed at you like a four year-old?

We should take shots for that, too.

Oh, so we've come to the portion of thread where you post images like a four year-old?

We should take shots for that, too.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Why doesn't it prove anything about anything?

I think I know the answer here. All you want to do is argue with people. You'll keep coming back here, over and over... but you won't really say anything.

I'm not calling you one, but you fit the profile of a troll.

How is it anything more than your gut feeling?

[freudling]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

How is it anything more than your gut feeling?

Outline in detail specifically why Walt Mossberg is not a good candidate to write Steve Jobs' bio

[Waragainstsleep]

Mossberg has been in Jobs'/Apple's pocket for years. He would have been fine if Steve had wanted a glowing, biased tribute. Apparently he did not.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Outline in detail specifically why Walt Mossberg is not a good candidate to write Steve Jobs' bio

No... It doesn't work that way, for one because I didn't say that he wouldn't be, but also because if you want to make the point that he is a better choice than the person that Jobs himself thought would be best the onus is on YOU to make this argument.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Outline in detail specifically why Walt Mossberg is not a good candidate to write Steve Jobs' bio

Um, Mossberg is a product reviewer, not a professional biographer. There's no comparison.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Um, Mossberg is a product reviewer, not a professional biographer. There's no comparison.

There's that too...

[freudling]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Um, Mossberg is a product reviewer, not a professional biographer. There's no comparison.

Who gives a shit about being a professional biographer. The guy who wrote "Shit my Dad says" basically wrote a biography about his Dad yet he had never written a biography before.

Steve Jobs, no formal education, College drop out... no solid technical skills (couldn't program) became the man who led a computer computer to the top of the world.

In other words, nobody gives a shit. If you have a talent and will to do something, you can do anything.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Who gives a shit about being a professional biographer.

Steve Jobs.

The guy who wrote "Shit my Dad says" basically wrote a biography about his Dad yet he had never written a biography before.

In other words, nobody gives a shit. If you have a talent and will to do something, you can do anything.

Mossberg wanted to write Jobs' bio? I don't think so.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Oh, so we've come to the portion of thread where you post images like a four year-old?

We should take shots for that, too.

Do you feel like you've won an argument when people recoil in horror and confusion from your behavior?

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Outline in detail specifically why Walt Mossberg is not a good candidate to write Steve Jobs' bio

To echo myself and a few other people: He's biased.

[ort888]

Argh...

I'm listening to the audiobook and the narrator is pronouncing OS X " Oh Es Ex". It's driving me batty. Likes nails on a chalkboard.

If he starts saying iTouch I might jump out a window.

[The Final Dakar]

That's what I've always called it.

[ort888]

And you would be wrong.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by ort888 

And you would be wrong.

I'm in good company on this one.

[Big Mac]

It's wrong, Dakar, but I accept it as an alternate pronunciation because I remember SJ using that pronunciation. See other thread.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

It's wrong, Dakar, but I accept it because I remember SJ using that pronunciation. See other thread.

Sure it is. It's in that fun gray zone with gif.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

To echo myself and a few other people: He's biased.

Demonstrate that he's biased. Demonstrate why he's not capable of writing Steve Jobs' bio.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Demonstrate that he's biased. Demonstrate why he's not capable of writing Steve Jobs' bio.

The onus isn't on me. You're the one going off about Isaacson doing it for the money, but you haven't demonstrated that. Everyone else on here agrees Mossberg would be a poor fit as a biographer, so it's up to you to present some kind of information that might change our minds.

Your lack of appreciation for being a professional biographer isn't exactly faith-instilling.